how does everything out flank? I know creed gives it to a unit, as does Al'Rahem. but how does the second command squad outflank?
This seems like a very powerful list that would be very hard to counter, and really, if used in a friendly game would not make you many friends, but if used in a tournie, could be devastating.
Terran_Forge
· 7 months ago
Valk's have the scout special rule and Al'Rahem forces his entire platoon to outflank.
maximus-x-meridius
· 7 months ago
Creed gives SCOUT to a unit or one (1) vehicle. So says the German codex. It will not work on three (3) Medusas even if they are a squadron (or how they call it in English). I would appreciate if you check your English codex if it is a translation error (would not be the first ;-).
TSINI
· 7 months ago
in the english dex it says he may give Scout to a single infantry or vehicle unit
so unit would include a whole vehicle squadron
i'm going to have to convert myself a creed count as.
Terran_Forge
· 7 months ago
Sort of similar to the list I thought up and posted on my blog (shameless plug- http://terranforge.blogspot.com/) with the exception of you have more tanks and i have more infantry. The thought of creed bellowing orders from a valkyrie is hilarious. Don't know why you'd have the Medusas outflank. I mean, I understand your thinking, but I think they'd be better back on your side of the field (though I guess it's any easy way to get them in range).
I think you're a bit light on anti-tank. Maybe make at least one of the Valkyries a Vendetta? The medusas can deal with it, sure, but I prefer to pummel infantry with my pie-plates personally.
I think orks would massacre you though, if they don't get freaked out by all the outflanking stuff. (Perfect way to win: force you're enemy to make a mistake! :p)
LordSandwich
· 7 months ago
Creed doesn't bellow, that's Kell's job.
Charles Thoss
· 7 months ago
Officers cannot issue orders while they are embarked in a transport vehicle (unless it is a Chimera). Page 29 of the Codex
mkerr
· 7 months ago
That's correct. Creed (and his fellow Company Commander) won't be giving any orders from the Valkyrie. He'll have to wait until he disembarks!
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
Yeah, I'm not too sure about outflanking your artillery either. Don't you want it on the board so you can start pounding them right away?
I'd almost like to see the Bastion shells (?) on the Medusa to get a little extra range out of them.
BrassScorpion
· 7 months ago
Have to agree with that one. Heavy weapons and artillery should be on the table from turn 1 every game doing as much damage as possible. They're expensive units that generally have fairly long ranges. Keeping them in reserve means they really are not doing what they should be doing from game start, pounding away at your opponent or worrying him about it so much that they draw fire away from other units crucial to the end game of capturing objectives, etc. Games only have a few turns, so missing a turn or more of shooting with artillery or other heavy weapon units is a huge loss of opportunity to damage the opposing army.
chosen1
· 7 months ago
You do miss a turn or two of shooting, but you prevent those vehicles from getting destroyed too early. The outflank/deepstrike concept is a risky prospect to begin with. If you have no other units on the board other than your long guns/armor, then they will end up being your opponent's only targets during those early turns. Cover or no, my tanks have perfected the art of dying in a loud, grotesque, military manner prior to doing anything useful. With reserves, at least they get one round of shooting in before doing the Emperor proud.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
True, and if the whole rest of your army is outflanking then those few Medusas on the board are going to get POUNDED by the entire enemy force while you wait for your own guys to come in.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
With +2 on the Reserve rolls (as well as a re-roll on side), you aren't really taking much of a risk. 17% of the time, the ordnance batter comes in on turn 3. 3% of the time, they come in on turn 4.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
To be more convincing, you should probably add that they come in on Turn 2 some really large part of the time. Still, in a 5 turn game you are losing 20% of your shooting from coming in on turn 2 instead of 1.
It is like the 80/20 rule in practice. There's an 80-something percent change that your gun will be 80-something percent efficient, excluding all the ways it can get destroyed.
And then what if you face another Guard army. Your +2 could become +0.
slovak
· 7 months ago
I don't have the new codex yet and maybe there's some restriction I'm not aware of, but why wouldn't you take the three Medusas individually as separate HS choices?
Seems to me this would help spread the risk of bad rolls = no show army out a bit, as well as insuring that the tanks don't all come in on the same board edge (which I think would be desirable -?).
TSINI
· 7 months ago
you're absolutely right mate, if you're only taking 3 heavy support vehicles, take them separately, means you can spread your ordnance out between different enemy units, and means the enemy have to choose which tanks to shoot at, rather than pile shots into your squad.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
In the case of the Medusas, I really want to get them all at the same time (which is 83% of the time on turn 2). And by making them a squadron, I shave off 2 kill points.
For this army and not knowing the misssion type in advance, I feel the ordnance battery is better. But 3 HS choices can work too.
Besides, if they were 3 choices instead of a squadron, I could only outflank with one of them. And where's the fun in that??
BlackKnight15624
· 7 months ago
...why Speculum?
Warren Monger
· 7 months ago
Look up it... er, I mean... look it up.
Deagle
· 7 months ago
Can astropaths use their ability whilst in reserve?
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
The wording for Astropaths and Autarchs is identical (while they are alive), and the ability is almost identical. And Autarchs function in reserve, so it seems that Astropaths and Officers of the Fleet also function while in Reserve.
CT
· 7 months ago
You may be digging a hole with that logic. Other than the obvious inconstancies between the Space Marine codices, I noticed the other day two Space Marines can shoot from a Rhino while only one Chaos Space Marine can shoot from a Rhino.
Alain Watson
· 7 months ago
They changed that in the FAQ, two CSM's can use the 1 fire point in their rhinos.
CT
· 7 months ago
Wow first bullet too! Thanks for pointing that out; there's way too much to keep up with to play this game. That helps me get over one of the hang ups I had with building a CSM list.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
lol, so many F.A.Q's its amazing isnt it
if you didnt have internet access and basically lived on physical things from a GW store, you'd be screwed
:D
LexingtonNet
· 7 months ago
The Steel Speculum - Open Wide And Say "Ahhhh." :P
The David
· 7 months ago
1. A mirror or polished metal plate used as a reflector in optical instruments. 2. An instrument for dilating the opening of a body cavity for medical examination. 3. Zoology a. A bright, often iridescent patch of color on the wings of certain birds, especially ducks. b. A transparent spot in the wings of some butterflies or moths.
i think they mean 3a but 2 is the frist thing to come to mind
Seth James
· 7 months ago
It's #1. Cuz them tanks is so shiny!
mkerr
· 7 months ago
I chose it because it was a funny double entendre, but I didn't expect anyone to know about 3a. An "inside joke" (no pun intended).
Disappointed in Denver
· 7 months ago
It seems like Al'Rahem and Creed are going to be popular choices in a Guard army.
Great.
They must be some really busy commanders.
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
If you want to do pure outflanking, those two are going to be in your army, yes. I don't plan to take either in everyday lists.
Jackmojo
· 7 months ago
It is likely, but in each case their both more then twice as good as standard commanders (twice as many orders as the officer they replace, both with double the radius, both with extra unique orders and unit modifying rules). Rather like Vulkan and Shrike they're army modifiers as much as characters.
They have a lot in common so I think that both tend to appeal to people who liek that sort of thing.
Jack
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
It's time to bust ot your "counts as" officers folks...
Whether it is a kit-bashed cadian, a beastman in a robe, or a Vostroyan with an extra tall furry hat, you can use practically any model you like.
You may be subject to the protests of your opponents, but you can gently convince them that unique hobby pieces are better than the same exact Creed on ever other guard battlefield.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Creed and Al'Rahem? Neither of them appear in my Cadian army, but their skills are similar to two famous heroes from an Imperial Guard regiment (that found some action during the Macharian Crusade).
The XX Cadian Shock Troops (otherwise known as the "Ten Tens") is actually led Colonel Sheridan (a "tactical genius") and and the sneaky platoon is actually Captain Cline who learned to "stalk the enemy" from the permanently attached 94th Kanak Skulltaker platoon.
You'll also find:
A very brave veteran seargent Ardennes attached to the 125th Kasrkin Fire Support Platoon. He's never given up and he's never surrendered!
Colonel Splint leads the battle hardened 3rd Company (he's "gung-ho" leader of the third company, who is more cybernetic replacement than man).
A "loner", Blain Ventura is an AWOL specialist from Captain Fosten's 1st Company, C Platoon that's gone native (the company chirurgeon think he ate something that drove him mad and made him into "an Emperor-damned sexual trigon").
Quite a bunch of characters in that regiment.
Maine
· 7 months ago
So many mounted units, won't give much opportunity to take advantage of those 8 orders.
My list is a mechanized Steel Legion; I am considering dropping voxes as it just seems like I won't get real chances to use them.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Not on the first few turns of the game, but I plan on taking advantage of the orders when I need to use the Plasma Guns. Then the commanders can always jump into a Chimera if necessary.
But in my personal list, I plan on taking much more advantage of the cool orders system.
a123non
· 7 months ago
You know, one of the most intersting parts of both of the lists posted has been that neither has leman russ battle tanks. I suspect that with the increase in basic cost and their inability to take out enemy armour they will be put on the shelf til next edition. They are just not cost effective!
Slicksauce
· 7 months ago
I've been using a Vanquisher and it seems to take care of enemy armor just fine. Ditto on the regular russes though (if that's what you're referring to).
TSINI
· 7 months ago
its such a shame theyve removed the vanquishers ability to fire normal battle tank shells, the vanquisher was such an obvious choice for me, a tank than can wipe out a land raider in turn 1, then shell the crap out of the marines that leapt out of the burning carcass the following turn
but oh well, the ability to take a vanquisher and an executioner together pretty much makes tank killing and infantry killing impossible to fail at :D
Word_Bearer
· 7 months ago
Um actually leman russes are the single most cost effective heavy support unit in the game now. If you take a lascannon and Heavy bolters you have a tank that is almost GUARANTEED not to die fast and that can kill EVERYTHING in the game while moving! Battlecannons + Lascannons are great at killing tanks.
Personally in 2000 points I run a squadron of 3 vanquishers. This guaruntees 1 tank kill every turn and with heavy bolter sponsons can also kill a ton of infantry (For when you run out of vehicles to shoot at by turn 4.).
Also Exterminators are the shit! You have So many ap4 shots are are guaranteed to hit, just upgrade this guy to have heavy bolters on the sides and a heavy flamer in front and drive straight at the enemy!
So yeah, Leman Russes are MORE practical than before, not less man.
UltramarineFan
· 7 months ago
The fact that russes can wipe the floor with all infantry does have any influence?
Slicksauce
· 7 months ago
He choose the HOWING Spider Monkeys (an awesome list that can give just about anyone a bloody nose), while I went in a little direction I like to call the "Steel Speculum.
All caps mine. It's in the top of your post.
T
· 7 months ago
Can you give orders to troops if they are embarked in Chimeras / Valkyries?
Mellon
· 7 months ago
Not as the rules are written, no. But the commander giving the order can be embarked, it even gives him (or her?) a bit extra command range since you measure from the hull.
Although I'd certainly let an IG opponent give orders to a squad that is embarked. It seems very reasonable after all, and I'm much more interested in the storytelling than the competition.
zannal
· 7 months ago
The codex specifically says you can't give orders to some one in a transport vehicle or if the officer is in a vehicle (except chimerias) So you are ok with blatant cheating?
Seth James
· 7 months ago
I don't believe it's called cheating when it's consensual. (Though my wife might disagree.) Hey-o!
mozz
· 7 months ago
You sir, are a god among men. You made my morning.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Fixed! Thanks for finding that!
Slicksauce
· 7 months ago
No problem. I forgot to add in that it should be chose instead of choose at that same spot :)
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Fixed that one too!
Ceasar
· 7 months ago
I may be missing something. But to my understanding you have to "move" on to the table when outflanking. And since the valkyrie model seems to be over 6" long it will force you to move more then 6" and there by only be allowed to fire 1 main weapon. So you first turn shooting from them doesen't seem to be that heavy.
Korras
· 7 months ago
by that reasoning, Baneblades held in reserve are not allowed to come on to the table, since they are longer then their movement allows.
Ceasar
· 7 months ago
True, didn't think of that one. I just now that people have forced my landraider to go at full speed when entering the table since it's longer than 6".
Herald of Nurgle
· 7 months ago
Thats because you measure the movement from the Flying Base
Starion
· 7 months ago
Depends what and how you're measuring. I'd personally say the tail boom is NOT part of the main hull of the vehicle, in that same way that rams and dozer blades, MC tails, and the like aren't. Pretty sure that after that, nosecone to end of main fuselage as under 6". Only seen the model irl once though, so can't be certain...
Tom Chappelow
· 7 months ago
Do we think that medics are worth it? Seems a bit pointless on T3 Sv5+ units, but I imagine you're doing it here to protect your commanders for the purposes of orders, as well as Astropaths?
Mellon
· 7 months ago
Since they are so low toughness and armour they tend to be targeted by pretty basic weapons that will not deny the FNP. And it helps to take the edge of the "gets hot" damage from multiple plasmaguns.
Rahakanji
· 7 months ago
On Infantry Squads the Medic is even better than in an Command Squad, thanks to the ability of giving the whole combined Squad (up to 55Man) the FnP-Rule...
baneblade
· 7 months ago
Unfortunately, only the basic intantry squads have the 'combined squads' rule so you can't have a 55 strong FNP squad.
Also I agree with Mellon, usually the squads are targeted with things like bolters and heavy bolters. Having the FNP will give them a slight boost and give your all important orders giver a bit more time to like! Any increase in survivability is welcomed, especailly in the guard!
Also, I see a complete lack of vox-casters? Any particular reason for this? I like to think of it as a safeguard against the double 6 rule and also failing the order when you really need it to succed!
Herald of Nurgle
· 7 months ago
Erm, you mean that it'll be effective on Bolters Oh, wait that also depends on whether they all have the 4+ Save And that doesn't even think about the HEAVY Bolters
mkerr
· 7 months ago
I put the medics in the unit to help survive plasma "Gets Hot" problems. I'm hoping for two rounds of shooting from both units. But it might be better to drop one or both of the Medics to use the points elsewhere (like sponsons for the Valkyrie without).
I don't expect to be giving orders much in this army. The targets will be the two Command Squads (LD10 and LD9) and the Veterans (LD8). I might tune the army a bit to put a Vox Caster in the Veterans squad to make orders stick to them better.
TheInnerGeek
· 7 months ago
Medics are the only ones who would be carrying the steel speculums.
Word_Bearer
· 7 months ago
Medics are worth it if you want to take 2/3 plasma guns, as overheating isn't that bad with BS4 and feel no pain. Or if you want to kick ass in close combat just take 2 bodyguards and upgrade to carapace armor for 20 points more. Also don't forget that the advisors just about all become spare wounds by turn 3.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
they look cool though, covered in blood, probably pale white after watching their battle brothers clawing their entrails together!
gives a squad character :D
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
I use a medic in my more expensive command squad that is full of advisors and plasma weapons. I also give them carapace. The combination means that when they get shot out of their Chimera, they tend to all survive, and they're quite resilient from small arms fire as well (including Heavy Bolters, if they have cover). Since command squads draw a lot of fire, the points are well spent making this fire magnet more durable.
Mantikor
· 7 months ago
I guess after new Codex its forbidden to shoot with other Guns then LasGuns out of a Chimaera ... so youve got to disembark ... against Spacemarines with Bolters no nice Idea ... welcome to Dying ...
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
If that were true, it would be painful. Up to 5 can fire out if the Chimera, no restriction on what they fire.
Mantikor
· 7 months ago
But next sentence :
"In Reality they use the Lasgunemplacements..."
i thought that should tell us, that you can only use lasguns from inside the chimaera. I ask for it at our local gw store and they assign with my opinion.
The Chimaera also not counts as Open Vehicle if youre firing from inside one point that always takes effect when you're firing with other weapons then lasguns in former codex.
Im not sure ... but it sounds worse i think. We will have to wait for FAQ an Errata may be ...
PS: Sry for bad english
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
No problem with your English. The rule says 5 models can fire from the top hatch. It then says some would "in reality" be using the lasguns, but it nowhere implies that the 5 are required to use lasguns in practice.
This one doesn't need an FAQ - just don't read more into it than the rule actually says.
Les
· 7 months ago
if there firing out of the top hatch the welcome to open top, and say hello to my little friend here.
kadun
· 7 months ago
Actually that rule is no longer in the codex/rulebook.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
nah the 5 fire from hatch is to simplify the shooting from transports rules which were failry complex in the last edition.
if it was "only firing lasguns from gun emplacements" it would probably be 6 shots, to account for the 6 lasguns...
as it is they want to get rid of the hassle of counting vehicles as open-topped when firing fromhatches, and not when space marines are firing from hatches due to power armour etc.
reading the rules as is, it definately just says 5 models may fire, there's no limit to lasguns.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
but then youve also got to ask, if a heavy weapons team counts as 2 models... does that mean only 3 lasguns and a heavy weapon?
lol Dont fall into this potential swirling melee!!
KINGS
· 7 months ago
heavy weapons team is a single two wound model.
~kings
Herald of Nurgle
· 7 months ago
Which counts as two models in the transport. Therefore, one could say that technically 2 members are shooting Well, a particularly dirty one that is
mkerr
· 7 months ago
A terminator would count as two models in a transport, but only one model when firing from a vehicle.
(But if you'd let me double the number of shots that my team took -- or gave me a re-roll, I'd be happy to negotiate on this one.)
So five Guardsmen or five Terminators (or five heavy weapons teams, if you could get them inside) could fire from the Chimera.
Mantikor
· 7 months ago
Ok so we perhaps should all fire with 3 Weapon teams out of a Chimera ... they count as 6 Models, so we can load them ... hrm Chimera with 3 LasCanons, 3 HeavyBolters ... sounds this just for me horrorable ? I dont believe GW would say this with this new Rule.
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
@Manticore
You can't load more than one separate squad into the same transport, so the example you gave can't happen.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
been thinking about this single 2 wound model business, does that mean the loader cannot fire his lasgun while the gunner fires the heavy weapon, also, if they move,(or even if they don't...) can both fire their lasguns?
or is it pretty much given that heavy weapon teams are just a 2 wound heavy weapon, and the "lasgun" entry in heavy weapon squads is purely an accident?
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
I only got a glance at the IG codex and then talked to a redshirt, but apparently loaders don't have lasguns anymore. At first I was resistant to the change to the 2W single model, but it does make their rules simpler. Just don't allocate a plasma gun hit or something to them...
TSINI
· 7 months ago
i've got my copy here and the heavy weapons squads (3 heavy weapon teams) still has "Lasgun" listed in its Wargear list.
so you could argue they still carry lasguns and should be able to fire them.
bit of a black hole rule gap :D
Catzilla
· 7 months ago
I think this was a topic of a previous FAQ. When moving, heavy weapon teams can only shoot their lasguns. When stationary, they can choose what to shoot.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
but now from a purely rules point of view, they are a single 2 wound model and no single model can fire 2 weapons from a rules point of view that we know of so far.
so its a bit of a stretch of imagination to allow the 2 halves of the same "model" to fire
its a bit of that Rules as intended rather than rules as written... which as discussed before, is left too much to interpretation.
i mean its never going to be an issue to me or my friends as it makes total sense they can fire either 2 lasguns, or a heavy weapon and a lasgun,
but its the kind of thing a tournement kinda guy could just say "show me where it says it can fire 2 weapons"
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
Well I think we have to go by the RAW in this particular case, despite how things have worked in the past it is a new book. One infantry model can only fire one gun.
I don't think the crewman firing the big gun would have a lasgun too, but if the heavy weapon base wants to rapidfire a single lasgun I guess that's ok.
Catzilla
· 7 months ago
I agree with you TSINI, I expect GW to come up with a similar FAQ like the Imperial 4.0 one though where they say:
"Heavy weapon teams are supplied with a large base to contain both crewmen and the weapon. Treat them as two separate models that are based together for convenience of movement."
Maybe they make an extra rule for them that goes along with 5th, however with the new order systems in the guard codex the rare occasions when you would prefer to shoot the lasguns instead of the heavy weapon might become a bit more common. I predict a FAQ is coming for this, rather more quickly than people on this blog expect it to happen actually.
Menos
· 7 months ago
I remember a WD FAQ about this. It said only one lasgun per team. The reason being that the gunner is too busy or strained carrying the heavy weapon to fire or carry lasguns. ( I always model a second lasgun on the 50mm base, but its for decoration. If you drill and pin the loader its easy to remember which teams have suffered a wound).
Mantikor
· 7 months ago
@chaosgerbil
Take a Heavyweapon Squad, put it into a Chimaera and my example CAN happen ;)
mkerr
· 7 months ago
A heavy weapon team is a single model (2 wound) now. The model is armed with a Lasgun and a Heavy Weapon, but it can only fire one of them in the shooting phase.
toophat
· 7 months ago
To be honest, ive played lists like this already a few times and ive seen people play against it, normally at 1700 points but everything is pretty much the same. It lost to my Necrons in a capture and control, Nids in a kill point game. All in all 6 outflanking Chimeras sounds like a good idea but ive yet to see it work properly. In fact my friend who already plays this list has yet to score a win.
Joseph
· 7 months ago
Just like Space Marine Khan lists. I've rarely seen an entire army outflanking perform as disgustingly expected as possible. A big part of the reason is not getting enough on the board and where you want it when.
The Astropaths help that with the +2 reserves and a re roll for table side. This could have the desired devastating effect.
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
Any time reserves trickle in a few at a time there is a danger of having only a handful of units face the bulk of the enemy's shooting.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Agreed, but this isn't as much of a problem when you have two Astropaths.
Inquisitor Hate Machine
· 7 months ago
The wording on astropaths leads me to believe it doesn't work how you think it works. I'll be checkingrge autarch entry shortly
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Here's the important part of the Telepathic Relays rule: "Whilst the Astropath is alive, you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls."
So if you have two Astropaths, you get +2 to your reserve rolls. That brings in your outflanking units on a 2+ on turn 2.
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
I see... that makes everything pretty consistent. If you get a few tricklers in on turns 3 or 4 that could be just fine, since most of your force showed up on turn 2.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
It also makes it easier now that the Platoon Command Squad and all 5 Infantry Squads are a single Reserves roll.
TrevytheGreat
· 7 months ago
Does anyone besides me think it's weird to use both Cadian and Tallarn commanders in one army?
Mantikor
· 7 months ago
i do
jdubb40k
· 7 months ago
I do.
Vodski
· 7 months ago
Wouldn't it be weird for most of the legendary characters in the game ,to be fighting in the same action, at the same time , with such a small force. Yarrick getting out of bed to lead 1500 pts into battle? Calgar turning up in the same battle as Abbadon? What are the chances?
styx
· 7 months ago
GW has cooked up the idea that while you may have Creed in your army, that it may be Bob the Burgermeister or somesuch you made up with the same abilities. I'm not wild about having to use special characters to play a specific army style but that is what people are being forced into. I am learning to live with and accept it...
Seth James
· 7 months ago
Agreed. Let's petition for a "Single Special Character" rule in 6th.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
lol "only one person in the world may own the marneus calgar model."
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
GW should only make one model of each special character. If you want to use that character, you have to buy it from the person that bought it from GW.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
haha, marneus calgar £5000 (made from the purest gold or platinum, carved by deaf monks in the himalayas)
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
No shipping; available only for local pickup at our mountaintop studio.
TrevytheGreat
· 7 months ago
Going by this route... "Only 1 player in the world may have a Space Marine army painted in any one color scheme. They must own 1,000 Space Marine models and there may only be 1,000 players with Space Marine armies." Oh gods, the confusion. :D
TSINI
· 7 months ago
everytime a space marine dies, he has to be given a full burial and a new model replace him, also a scout must be melted down and replaced to represent the scout being promoted....
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
Except Black Templars... there can be a bunch of BT players. :)
Menos
· 7 months ago
Its even weirder that captain Al'Rahem is now a lieutenant (and Chenkov).. Demotion for getting lippy with the Warmaster? So in a pure Tallarn army, you'd have to have a much more imposing figure than Rahem for the heroic senior officer (or whatever he's called now that Honorifica Imperialis is gone).
biztheclown
· 7 months ago
I don't. Special characters are part of list building. They can have different names. Get over it already.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
although i understand this, i have noticed that the fact you can't change their weapons leads to some odd things
Such as:
i wish to have a veterans squad that can move through cover etc etc to represent a sneaky squad. to do this, you give them gunnery sergeant harker. but gunnery sergeant harker has a heavy bolter!!
this means every sneaky veterans squad anyone fields will have a sergeant with heavy bolter!! lol not truly sneaky is it...
KINGS
· 7 months ago
Harker is the best. I've used him a few times now and has never diapointed me! Winning combat against Scouts, Dire Avengers, Devestaters... not to mention laying down a solid rate of fire on the move with his HB, 3 Grenades, and Shotguns! wuuuuuuuuu
~kings
TSINI
· 7 months ago
cheers man, thats good to know
at the moment Harker is the only character that stands out for me.
I'll probably settle for one more character, after intensly reading through all of them. its difficult to pinpoint which ones are more characterful for my force:
cityfighting specialists.
plus im relishing the opportunity to do some scratchbuilding converting to make these guys... :D
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
True, but you could model the heavy bolter as a needle rifle or something, as long as your opponent knows it has heavy bolter stats.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
thats not a bad idea. but there are other attributes which will be odly replicated into every sneaky squad
like the fact he has feel no pain, and an unnatural strength of 4
i mean in a catachan army these traits fit in really well, but in other armies, it begins to get tedious explaining why your sneaky squad is lead by a behemoth of a man toting a heavy weapon. when in reality it would be a smaller man with a knife and a silenced pistol, not that you couldnt field this as a normal sergeant, but you don't get the cool movement rules.
Chaosgerbil
· 7 months ago
I "feel your pain." Converting a model to be within the them of your squad and abiding by the rules and equipment in the book is kind of an ad hoc solution. It would have made more sense to give more options for your sneaky squad but it didn't turn out that way.
TrevytheGreat
· 7 months ago
I disagree. Sure the characters can be given different names, sure I'm all for having characters with special abilities and weapons, I think that adds flavor to the army and gives each player a specific style of play to work with, but limiting these special character 'classes' allows players to only choose a style out of a set list of, what, 10? I think the characters a player chooses to play should be based more around the player's playing style and fluff, not another cookie cutter character who happens to carry the same weapons, has the exact same musculature and...wow! He has the exact same education, combat experience, style of command and squad set up! The universe is a big place, but really?
Menos
· 7 months ago
True. Just wrap a green stuff turban on Creed's head, then call him Al'Sarkar'El' Creed. I'm having Straken in my flower power guard, and might call him Ironballs instead.
nypunkgeek
· 7 months ago
I really don't get why people get all crazy about using special characters from different units. There is no way that GW is going to make all the special characters that exist out there and these allow you to add a little flavor to your army. Many people usually have a story or a general concept behind the army they build and it can easily make sense that there are other commanders that are similar to the ones there are rules for.
Playing Relictors for my Space Marine army made this very obvious since there are no named characters available to me from my Chapter in the codex. I can take the ones that seem to fit the spirit of the Relictors and then name them based on known Relictor names from fluff and say they count as the other model. This lets you mix the tactics that fit your back story with some rules you can use in the game. Basically it allows you to have fun. Why rain on someones parade when they are trying to have fun and not doing anything against the rules?
CT
· 7 months ago
It lessens the term 'special' when there is no limit to taking the character especially when you can squeeze in half a dozen in one list. At this point a special character is more like saying it's a 0-1 unit selection.
It would be like cloning all the best athletes in a sport and putting them on the same team: "Oh, you're playing the Lakers... This'll be fun! Wait a second, you've got Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, and Wilt Chamberlain. This will be interesting because that's pretty much the line up I choose for the Pistons too."
It's just not the same when everybody can (and does) play them.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
So he's got 2 named characters and suddenly it is "half a dozen"?
Two seems like certainly a fair number considering there are, what, ten or eleven named characters in the new book?
CT
· 7 months ago
Pretty sure I counted 5 in "The Howling Spider Monkeys" list; which is close enough for government work. :P
Mexican
· 7 months ago
I do.
Mexican
· 7 months ago
I do,
AfrikA
· 7 months ago
Interesting list. I'd put some flamers in there in case you run into stuff in cover. Putting heavy flamers on the chimeras could be good to support the infantry for anti horde.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Yeah, heavy flamers on the outflanking Chimeras might work. Going to have to try that a bit before I rely on it though. Too bad they aren't fast!
styx
· 7 months ago
Just did a count...the two HQs and 3 Vets would need 5 Valks, I am counting only 3 on the list. Your missing some transports.
Menos
· 7 months ago
No! Its one vet squad, and 2 HQs, all else is in a chimera. Stay off the combat drugs;)))
styx
· 7 months ago
Heh, must be all that Slaught in my gas mask...damm Savlar! They said this was new!
Yea, it looked like 3 squads at first...heh..
Menos
· 7 months ago
My previous army had chem -inhalers, I know! Us Savlar have too much nitro-stimm on the brain. :( )
KINGS
· 7 months ago
I miss chem-inhalers... best Doctrin ever!
"ok you lost combat by 7 so your leadership is... 9!?!?! Damn chem-inhailers!"
~kings
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
Commissars are the new Chem Inhalers.
Yup, I lost by 7 but my power weapon Sergeant and Commissar are going to piss you off for one more round of assault.
KINGS
· 7 months ago
Difference is that Chem-Inhalers were 10pts while Commissars are 35pts...
~kings
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
But Chem Inhalers don't let you get to re-roll if you fail. And they also aren't WS4/BS4 :)
Havik110
· 7 months ago
I am really liking the outflanking armies...heres to hoping Raiders can outflank and have bonuses for when they come on...A fast outflanking army sounds like a scary deal...
dizzyjock
· 7 months ago
The only problem I see is the 3 Medusa's in one squadron, which forces them to fire at the same target. How many targets really need 3 Str10 AP2 pie plates to get rid of them ? Maybe 2 Demolishers with HB sponsons would do the same job, be more survivable to return fire ?
TSINI
· 7 months ago
JUST GOT MY CODEX YESTERDAY!! WOOHOOO
i too am having to really think about what special characters, if any, i want to include to try and get some diversity into the force (ruleswise). its tricky...
Herald of Nurgle
· 7 months ago
HATE YOU!!!
*Joking*
Well, if you have the codex, did you pre order? Should I hope yes? Yes? GAAAHHH!!! lol
TSINI
· 7 months ago
alright m8
yeah i pre-ordered (to be delivered to my local store)
i wandered in on wednesday, no luck
then by pure coincidence was walking past yesterday (thurs) and the guy came out with a copy for me, apparently the store copies had just arrived, but not my ordered one. so he's just crossed me off the collect list :)
when u get yours let me know the changes you're making to ur army etc through ur blog. will be good to compare how were both adjusting to the new dex.
Tony
· 7 months ago
its an interesting list build, but which valks are in which squadrons. with the 'dex i looked at, i was under the impression they cannot be taken as dedicated transports. but otherwise a very nasty list.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
They aren't dedicated, they are a fast attack choice and can transport anyone. Like an Eldar Falcon they are a non-dedicated transport.
Lord of Deeds
· 7 months ago
First, love the content, love the oppurtunity to discuss and critique. Now on to it......
Why do the fly lords publish 2,000 pt lists? Why not 1500, 1750, or even 1850 (which I think is to big as well) It seems that at 2,000 you don’t have to make compromises, so it’s easy to come up with a “competitive” list when you can throw everything in but the kitchen sink. If anything it only serves to underscore codex creep. As for tournaments, 2,000 is quite honestly a ridiculous amount (unless it’s gladiator which is designed to include those very expensive super heavies). How can you come close to finishing a game with 2,000 points? What does playing a 2,000 point list prove? That one codex is better than another? That it's not about the tatics but the list? I think the better player is the one who consistently succeeds using 1,000 and 1,500 pt lists where the choices are more difficult.
The designers have said repeatedly that the game is balanced at 1500 points, so show me your real genius and post some 1500 point lists. So as per your request for suggestions, my suggestion is using the same theme, try and do a list that is 1500 pts.
Seth James
· 7 months ago
The Lord of Deeds has spoken and thus it shall be so!
BlackSly
· 7 months ago
One problem with smaller lists is that they do not worry about roster slot restrictions other than "must be Troops to score". A Wraithlord is better than a Dreadnaught, but the WL takes up a more valuable Heavy slot... but in a 1500 point game, that's not an issue. Similarly, 2 Lash Princes in a 1500 point game fit well... in a 2000 point, the fact that you're not allowed to take a 3rd really matters, but would you have tried to fit one in at 1500?
I agree that 1500 has some balance strengths over 2000 in terms of "must give things up". But it also loses some balance strengths by making roster slots matter less.
In addition, frankly, it's unfair to a few armies. If you're running 1k Sons, your basic Troops squad is 200+ points, maybe 300 if it's big. While Eldar can make nice 80 point units out of Jetbikes to grab objectives. Necrons have no options at all for Troops under 180 points, you can't even say "Well, don't play 1k Sons or summon demons", and it's hard to win when you have to put down that many points in weak troops. Yes, 2000 allows people to fill in Troops AND to take the "goodies", which may be a benefit to the IG where I see them as overdosing on goodies and neglecting the required Troops if they're not careful, in smaller battles. But it's a required benefit to some other armies that just find it hard to have points for goodies after filling in their Troops requirements, due to more expensive Troops. 2000 points gives them the option of having enough Troops to challenge objectives, and still get a decent amount of goodies on the field, while 1500 leaves them with Troops and 2 Toys.
Lord of Deeds
· 7 months ago
So what your saying is the game is broken at 1500 points?
Do armies' competitive balances start to erode quickly under 1,000 points? Sure they do, especially vs. Orks (Which seem to dominate no matter which way you scale!) As for your examples, Necrons have bigger problems than just expensive bland troop choices and everyone acknowledges they need a new codex desperately to be competitive again that goes far beyond the competitiveness of the army at various point levels. As for thousand son armies, they are eclectic and a very specific theme based on fluff more than tactics to begin with seeing as it is one troop choice out of how many that CSM's have? Still can you run two lashes, 3 oblits, and thousand sons at 1500 points? Yes.
As for FOC being less important in smaller point games, that's a matter of perspective and skews based on both mission and army. How many of us still build armies where we take the two minimum troop choices and then max the Elite or Heavy Support slots in 1500 pt games with the idea the troops are there only to take objectives while the other stuff kills and contests? Sure your less likely to run up against the FOC limits, but if you did max out the entire FOC just how many points do you think you are throwing down on the table?
BuFFo
· 7 months ago
Sup Skrag,
The game work perfectly at 1500 points.
You actually have to think of your army list, and options, and this makes for very tactically fun games, instead of a fluster cluck of models just killing each other a la the entire 4th edition run.
My group enjoys 1500 point lists much more than higher point games.
Just my opinion of course.
Inquisitor Hate Machine
· 7 months ago
man, you are really annoying.
@LoD: We play 2K lists up here in Austin, Dunno about you guys down in Houston...
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
I've got your real genius right here.
The reason you see 2000 points lists posted is because the local games they play (pickup and tournaments) are 2000 points. All four of the tournaments I've been to this year in Fly Lord Land have been 3 games @ 2000 points.
At 2000 points you have more opportunity to place expensive special/upgrade characters and have to focus more on your individual unit tactics and overall strategy because you've simply got a bigger force to command.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
As mentioned all of the games locally (and most tournaments in the US) are at 2,000 points. That's our default list size.
I'm doing this off the top of my head, so I may have some points wrong but this is what I would change to go to 1500 pts:
That's still a pretty nasty army. I wonder if it would hold up in a tournament.
BlackSly
· 7 months ago
A couple of questions about the army list and rules:
1) Valkyrie has Scout rule allowing it to Outflank. Veterans squad does not. Is it legal to put the Veterans in the Valkyrie and have both Outflank together, or would you be limited to normal Reserve and coming in from your own table edge?
2) I saw the comment about "18 Plasma gun shots", but that's assuming you fire both twice. When you come out of the vehicle you'll only be firing once, right? So that's 18 shots one turn after landing, by which time you'd likely be shot up a bit... wouldn't it be better for a transport-based squad to take Meltas, and save Plasmas for a gunline army?
Aracor
· 7 months ago
No, plasma guns are rapid fire weapons. They can always fire 2 shots at 12", even if they move. They simply count as moving when they disembark from a transport.
So 18 plasma gun shots is exactly accurate.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
1) Nope. Check out p. 94 in the main rulebook (under Preparing Reserves). Basically, you can specify a transport vehicle for any unit in reserve. Then the unit and the transport arrives together.
Only the transport needs the Scouts (or Deep Strike or Infiltrate) rule. That's why Space Marines can get inside a Drop Pod and Deep Strike.
2. Nope, rapid-fire doesn't work that way any more. Anytime you fire within 12" you, you fire 2 shots. Even if you move or disembark. Plasmas work extremely well with Deep Strike.
bullymike
· 7 months ago
you might realize already, and so maybe it's not a problem for you, but it seems to me that the infantry platoon deployment rules would mean that all the chimeras from the al raheims platoon would all come in on the same flank in the same turn. to take out vehicles with your infantry meltas they'd most likely have to get out since the chimera would probably have to move 12" to get good melta range on an enemy vehicle, meaning the chimera would be turned ass backwards and the troops would be exposed. but hey, they're just guardsmen, eat all you want we'll make more.
Word_Bearer
· 7 months ago
Actually that went away, platoons are no longer rolled for at the same time for reserves if I'm not mistaken with the new book, I'll check this out at the store today.
Hudson
· 7 months ago
I remember seeing a big note under Infantry Platoons that the whole platoon counts makes one roll for reserves. I remember saying "Thank you GW" for giving that specific wording in the codex.
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
You make one roll for an infantry platoon to enter from Reserves, but it is not required that you deploy the platoon together. It appears to me that Al'Rahem's platoon would roll for the outflanking position of each unit, since it is given no special rule that prevents them from coming in all over the place.
bullymike
· 7 months ago
codex: "is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves." rb: "when an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice"
yeah i guess.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
That's how I read it too. One roll per platoon for reserves, one roll per unit for outflanking side.
Word_Bearer
· 7 months ago
Well aside from Creed's tactical genius only allowing you to out flank 1 infantry unit or vehicle, not a vehicle squadron (So only 1 medusa, not 3) I like the concept. My personal recommendations:
Take Heavy Weapons with your infantry squads. Just because you come onto the table via outflanking doesn't mean that you should only take a meltagun. Instead of deploying everyone onto 1 side of the table consider this idea, split your army into a fire support section and an assault element.
The Fire Support element consists of 3 squads in chimeras with heavy weapons and grenade launchers (Multilaser and Heavy Bolter) and the medusa and enters in on one side of the table while the assault element of 2 squads and Al'Rahim enter the table from the opposite side in 3 chimeras (Multilaser and Heavy Flamer). The Support element sets up a base of fire and the assault element drives head on into the enemy army dropping heavy flamer templates and lots of infantry shots, then your valkeries come on and add some help.
Other ideas: Hydras man, hydras are the shit in the new codex. For 75 points (85 for a heavy stubber) you have more GARUNTEED Str 7 AP 4 hits than anything else in the army at the same range as a battlecannon. Take a Squadron of 3 of these for 225-255 and use it to kill 1-2 enemy squads/vehicles a turn (The shear panic these things inflict on players with speeder heavy armies is ridiculous.). The goal with these is to give your opponent something else to worry about other than your outflankers because most armies if played right can REALLY quickly contain and destroy a single platoon of infantry outflanking it. If you were to take the hydras (Or something else that is intimidating and has a long range.) and one of two heavy weapons teams (Because they are so damned cheap!) and throw them in the center of your deployment zone then your opponent is faced with choices. Does he attack the force on his left, his right, or right in front of him, very few armies have the capacity to do all of these at once. If you REALLY want to play up the "scare him with shit in your deployment zone" option then take a Deathstrike Missile launcher. They only cost 160 points and they are REALLY amuzing, plus your opponent will crap themselves by about turn 4 even if it hasn't shot yet. The Deathstrike is one of those things that absolutely MUST be killed off by your opponent so it would really make him split his army into nicely isolated and killed off elements for you.
So those are my thoughts man. Oh yeah, and I think that the second Command Squad is a waste, they are EXPENSIVE and if you are running Creed you will VERY quickly run out of squads to issue orders too. As of right now you are only running 9 squads, which with a grand total of 7 orders you will NEVER get to use all your orders in most turns (Squads in vehicles can't be ordered.). You'd be better off taking either a second veteran squad or some heavy support to throw in your deployment zone. I know that you are just taking the second unit for the extra Astropath, but trust me that sometimes you WANT your reserves to come in on turn 3 so that you can put them where you actually need them to be.
Anonannoyed
· 7 months ago
Okay BOLS members, point your wives and girlfriends to this article and ask them what they think.
Huh? Don't have any of those? Big surprise.
Oh, and: Spam spam spam spam. Fun list.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
My wife thinks MKerr's yellow helmet makes him look like he rides in the "short" Chimera.
CT
· 7 months ago
ROFL!
mkerr
· 7 months ago
My girlfriend agrees, but that's my only "I'm commanding a panzer platoon" picture (actually I'm wondering why I agreed to do the canopy tour in Costa Rica with my famous photog friend from stuckincustoms.com).
But I guess I'm one of those 'use my real name and use my real picture' kind of guys, lol.
RealGenius
· 7 months ago
Now I totally want to make a squad of Veterans with yellow helmets.
The Fightin' 243rd, Fist of Kerr, from Costa Monty.
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Love it!
TSINI
· 7 months ago
love it
Warren Monger
· 7 months ago
My wife thought your comment was pretty puerile. Is that what you wanted to prove?
UltramarineFan
· 7 months ago
About the only people who don't have girlfriends/wives at our store are too young.
UltramarineFan
· 7 months ago
That is a really nice list but if you're opponent as lots of anti tank weaponry then it will be reduced to slag. I think my list with only 1 meltagun, 2 multi-meltas and 2 lascanons would have a pretty good chance. Oh, and an assault squad to mop up any survivors, and an assault termie squad. Trying to out manoeuvre would be difficult as well as one of my meltas is in a bike squad with a sergeant with melta bombs.
Azatoth
· 7 months ago
2 named characters... 2 of the greatest heroes the IG has, both for a 2000 pts army...
I understand that this is a tournament army, but still. It is time to bring that old "no nameds w/o opponent consent rules" back out. Seems named characters are a must for 5th Edition.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
named characters are basically the new doctrines/chapter traits system for 5th ed
basically if you don't want a standard army, you need to sprinkle named characters like seasoning on your squads to spice them up
Im not the biggest fan, but i am having to just grin and bear it, its how every army will be with this editions run of codex's.
UltramarineFan
· 7 months ago
Sorry, forgot to mention in my previous comment but to the flylords I just want to say that GW has got some new bitz packs
BuFFo
· 7 months ago
Sup Skragger,
How are your Veterans scouting with your Valk? How does this work?
Inquisitor Hate Machine
· 7 months ago
Sup Chav,
Valks have Scout.
BuFFo
· 7 months ago
Yes, but the Veterans don't. How are the veterans scouting?
ctreleheb
· 7 months ago
I like the list and the fact that the new codex has opened up several styles of play for the guard player. Being a guard player since 3rd edition I like to change up my list and tactics often. As for the use of multiple special characters, I don't care whether someone uses all of them or none of them, the characters names are just stand-ins for whoever you designate to have those abilities in your army.
Byron Grotsniff McFistycuffs
· 7 months ago
I think this army would be super fun to play against itself
maximus-x-meridius
· 7 months ago
Creed gives SCOUT to a unit or one (1) vehicle. So says the German codex. It will not work on three (3) Medusas even if they are a squadron (or how they call it in English). I would appreciate if you check your English codex if it is a translation error (would not be the first ;-).
jwolf_bols
· 7 months ago
It is a translation error. The English says choose a single infantry or vehicle unit. That unit gains the Scout USR for the battle.
Mexican
· 7 months ago
I thought that the Medusa would work like a whirlwind where you can't move and fire.
anon
· 7 months ago
dont you have to take two platoon command squads for twwo troop choices in the FOC?
TSINI
· 7 months ago
not anymore, you can now take veterans squads as a single troops choice. Penal Legion squads are also single troops FOCs.
meaning you could field a legal army with just 21 men (lord commissar + 2 squads of veterans)
I agree. Having the high command of 2 different IG regiments from different planets/subsectors/whatever fighting in the same force? I am interested to know the fluff for this.
TSINI
· 7 months ago
different names will be the fluff. the same as thats pretty much the fluff for every single space marine army that has pedro kantor, sgt chronius, etc etc and isnt an ultramarine army
mkerr
· 7 months ago
Starting with the new Space Marine codex, you're able to customize the special characters to your Chapter/Regiment so there's no need to justify why a Cadian special character is appearing in a Valhallan army.
"Alternatively, you can use the model and rules for a named character to reprsent a mighty hero of a different Chapter -- for example, using the rules and model for Marneus Calgar as the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, or a Space Marine Chapter of your own design -- you just need to come up with a new name."
For example, my regiment is the XX Cadian Shock Troops. I have a colonel that uses the rules from Lord Castellan Creed, but he's not Creed. I also have a Cadian captain that uses Captain Al'Rahem's rules.
You have to change the way you look at special characters in 5E -- they are basically the new "0-1".
All Comments
This seems like a very powerful list that would be very hard to counter, and really, if used in a friendly game would not make you many friends, but if used in a tournie, could be devastating.
so unit would include a whole vehicle squadron
i'm going to have to convert myself a creed count as.
I think you're a bit light on anti-tank. Maybe make at least one of the Valkyries a Vendetta? The medusas can deal with it, sure, but I prefer to pummel infantry with my pie-plates personally.
I think orks would massacre you though, if they don't get freaked out by all the outflanking stuff. (Perfect way to win: force you're enemy to make a mistake! :p)
I'd almost like to see the Bastion shells (?) on the Medusa to get a little extra range out of them.
It is like the 80/20 rule in practice. There's an 80-something percent change that your gun will be 80-something percent efficient, excluding all the ways it can get destroyed.
And then what if you face another Guard army. Your +2 could become +0.
Seems to me this would help spread the risk of bad rolls = no show army out a bit, as well as insuring that the tanks don't all come in on the same board edge (which I think would be desirable -?).
For this army and not knowing the misssion type in advance, I feel the ordnance battery is better. But 3 HS choices can work too.
Besides, if they were 3 choices instead of a squadron, I could only outflank with one of them. And where's the fun in that??
if you didnt have internet access and basically lived on physical things from a GW store, you'd be screwed
:D
2. An instrument for dilating the opening of a body cavity for medical examination.
3. Zoology
a. A bright, often iridescent patch of color on the wings of certain birds, especially ducks.
b. A transparent spot in the wings of some butterflies or moths.
i think they mean 3a but 2 is the frist thing to come to mind
Great.
They must be some really busy commanders.
They have a lot in common so I think that both tend to appeal to people who liek that sort of thing.
Jack
Whether it is a kit-bashed cadian, a beastman in a robe, or a Vostroyan with an extra tall furry hat, you can use practically any model you like.
You may be subject to the protests of your opponents, but you can gently convince them that unique hobby pieces are better than the same exact Creed on ever other guard battlefield.
The XX Cadian Shock Troops (otherwise known as the "Ten Tens") is actually led Colonel Sheridan (a "tactical genius") and and the sneaky platoon is actually Captain Cline who learned to "stalk the enemy" from the permanently attached 94th Kanak Skulltaker platoon.
You'll also find:
A very brave veteran seargent Ardennes attached to the 125th Kasrkin Fire Support Platoon. He's never given up and he's never surrendered!
Colonel Splint leads the battle hardened 3rd Company (he's "gung-ho" leader of the third company, who is more cybernetic replacement than man).
A "loner", Blain Ventura is an AWOL specialist from Captain Fosten's 1st Company, C Platoon that's gone native (the company chirurgeon think he ate something that drove him mad and made him into "an Emperor-damned sexual trigon").
Quite a bunch of characters in that regiment.
My list is a mechanized Steel Legion; I am considering dropping voxes as it just seems like I won't get real chances to use them.
But in my personal list, I plan on taking much more advantage of the cool orders system.
but oh well, the ability to take a vanquisher and an executioner together pretty much makes tank killing and infantry killing impossible to fail at :D
Personally in 2000 points I run a squadron of 3 vanquishers. This guaruntees 1 tank kill every turn and with heavy bolter sponsons can also kill a ton of infantry (For when you run out of vehicles to shoot at by turn 4.).
Also Exterminators are the shit! You have So many ap4 shots are are guaranteed to hit, just upgrade this guy to have heavy bolters on the sides and a heavy flamer in front and drive straight at the enemy!
So yeah, Leman Russes are MORE practical than before, not less man.
All caps mine. It's in the top of your post.
Although I'd certainly let an IG opponent give orders to a squad that is embarked. It seems very reasonable after all, and I'm much more interested in the storytelling than the competition.
So you are ok with blatant cheating?
Also I agree with Mellon, usually the squads are targeted with things like bolters and heavy bolters. Having the FNP will give them a slight boost and give your all important orders giver a bit more time to like!
Any increase in survivability is welcomed, especailly in the guard!
Also, I see a complete lack of vox-casters? Any particular reason for this? I like to think of it as a safeguard against the double 6 rule and also failing the order when you really need it to succed!
Oh, wait that also depends on whether they all have the 4+ Save
And that doesn't even think about the HEAVY Bolters
I don't expect to be giving orders much in this army. The targets will be the two Command Squads (LD10 and LD9) and the Veterans (LD8). I might tune the army a bit to put a Vox Caster in the Veterans squad to make orders stick to them better.
gives a squad character :D
"In Reality they use the Lasgunemplacements..."
i thought that should tell us, that you can only use lasguns from inside the chimaera. I ask for it at our local gw store and they assign with my opinion.
The Chimaera also not counts as Open Vehicle if youre firing from inside one point that always takes effect when you're firing with other weapons then lasguns in former codex.
Im not sure ... but it sounds worse i think. We will have to wait for FAQ an Errata may be ...
PS: Sry for bad english
This one doesn't need an FAQ - just don't read more into it than the rule actually says.
if it was "only firing lasguns from gun emplacements" it would probably be 6 shots, to account for the 6 lasguns...
as it is they want to get rid of the hassle of counting vehicles as open-topped when firing fromhatches, and not when space marines are firing from hatches due to power armour etc.
reading the rules as is, it definately just says 5 models may fire,
there's no limit to lasguns.
lol Dont fall into this potential swirling melee!!
~kings
Well, a particularly dirty one that is
(But if you'd let me double the number of shots that my team took -- or gave me a re-roll, I'd be happy to negotiate on this one.)
So five Guardsmen or five Terminators (or five heavy weapons teams, if you could get them inside) could fire from the Chimera.
You can't load more than one separate squad into the same transport, so the example you gave can't happen.
or is it pretty much given that heavy weapon teams are just a 2 wound heavy weapon, and the "lasgun" entry in heavy weapon squads is purely an accident?
so you could argue they still carry lasguns and should be able to fire them.
bit of a black hole rule gap :D
so its a bit of a stretch of imagination to allow the 2 halves of the same "model" to fire
its a bit of that Rules as intended rather than rules as written... which as discussed before, is left too much to interpretation.
i mean its never going to be an issue to me or my friends as it makes total sense they can fire either 2 lasguns, or a heavy weapon and a lasgun,
but its the kind of thing a tournement kinda guy could just say "show me where it says it can fire 2 weapons"
I don't think the crewman firing the big gun would have a lasgun too, but if the heavy weapon base wants to rapidfire a single lasgun I guess that's ok.
"Heavy weapon teams are supplied with a large base to contain both crewmen and the weapon. Treat them as two separate models that are based together for convenience of movement."
Maybe they make an extra rule for them that goes along with 5th, however with the new order systems in the guard codex the rare occasions when you would prefer to shoot the lasguns instead of the heavy weapon might become a bit more common. I predict a FAQ is coming for this, rather more quickly than people on this blog expect it to happen actually.
It said only one lasgun per team. The
reason being that the gunner is too busy
or strained carrying the heavy weapon
to fire or carry lasguns.
( I always model a second lasgun on
the 50mm base, but its for decoration.
If you drill and pin the loader its easy
to remember which teams have
suffered a wound).
Take a Heavyweapon Squad, put it into a Chimaera and my example CAN happen ;)
The Astropaths help that with the +2 reserves and a re roll for table side. This could have the desired devastating effect.
So if you have two Astropaths, you get +2 to your reserve rolls. That brings in your outflanking units on a 2+ on turn 2.
"Only 1 player in the world may have a Space Marine army painted in any one color scheme. They must own 1,000 Space Marine models and there may only be 1,000 players with Space Marine armies."
Oh gods, the confusion. :D
Demotion for getting lippy with the Warmaster?
So in a pure Tallarn army, you'd have to have a much more imposing figure
than Rahem for the heroic senior officer (or whatever he's called now that
Honorifica Imperialis is gone).
Such as:
i wish to have a veterans squad that can move through cover etc etc to represent a sneaky squad. to do this, you give them gunnery sergeant harker. but gunnery sergeant harker has a heavy bolter!!
this means every sneaky veterans squad anyone fields will have a sergeant with heavy bolter!! lol not truly sneaky is it...
~kings
at the moment Harker is the only character that stands out for me.
I'll probably settle for one more character, after intensly reading through all of them. its difficult to pinpoint which ones are more characterful for my force:
cityfighting specialists.
plus im relishing the opportunity to do some scratchbuilding converting to make these guys... :D
like the fact he has feel no pain, and an unnatural strength of 4
i mean in a catachan army these traits fit in really well, but in other armies, it begins to get tedious explaining why your sneaky squad is lead by a behemoth of a man toting a heavy weapon. when in reality it would be a smaller man with a knife and a silenced pistol, not that you couldnt field this as a normal sergeant, but you don't get the cool movement rules.
The universe is a big place, but really?
Al'Sarkar'El' Creed.
I'm having Straken in my flower power guard, and might call him Ironballs
instead.
Playing Relictors for my Space Marine army made this very obvious since there are no named characters available to me from my Chapter in the codex. I can take the ones that seem to fit the spirit of the Relictors and then name them based on known Relictor names from fluff and say they count as the other model. This lets you mix the tactics that fit your back story with some rules you can use in the game. Basically it allows you to have fun. Why rain on someones parade when they are trying to have fun and not doing anything against the rules?
It would be like cloning all the best athletes in a sport and putting them on the same team: "Oh, you're playing the Lakers... This'll be fun! Wait a second, you've got Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, and Wilt Chamberlain. This will be interesting because that's pretty much the line up I choose for the Pistons too."
It's just not the same when everybody can (and does) play them.
Two seems like certainly a fair number considering there are, what, ten or eleven named characters in the new book?
Stay off the combat drugs;)))
Yea, it looked like 3 squads at first...heh..
too much nitro-stimm on the brain. :( )
"ok you lost combat by 7 so your leadership is... 9!?!?! Damn chem-inhailers!"
~kings
Yup, I lost by 7 but my power weapon Sergeant and Commissar are going to piss you off for one more round of assault.
~kings
i too am having to really think about what special characters, if any, i want to include to try and get some diversity into the force (ruleswise). its tricky...
*Joking*
Well, if you have the codex, did you pre order? Should I hope yes? Yes? GAAAHHH!!! lol
yeah i pre-ordered (to be delivered to my local store)
i wandered in on wednesday, no luck
then by pure coincidence was walking past yesterday (thurs) and the guy came out with a copy for me, apparently the store copies had just arrived, but not my ordered one. so he's just crossed me off the collect list :)
when u get yours let me know the changes you're making to ur army etc through ur blog. will be good to compare how were both adjusting to the new dex.
Why do the fly lords publish 2,000 pt lists? Why not 1500, 1750, or even 1850 (which I think is to big as well) It seems that at 2,000 you don’t have to make compromises, so it’s easy to come up with a “competitive” list when you can throw everything in but the kitchen sink. If anything it only serves to underscore codex creep. As for tournaments, 2,000 is quite honestly a ridiculous amount (unless it’s gladiator which is designed to include those very expensive super heavies). How can you come close to finishing a game with 2,000 points? What does playing a 2,000 point list prove? That one codex is better than another? That it's not about the tatics but the list? I think the better player is the one who consistently succeeds using 1,000 and 1,500 pt lists where the choices are more difficult.
The designers have said repeatedly that the game is balanced at 1500 points, so show me your real genius and post some 1500 point lists. So as per your request for suggestions, my suggestion is using the same theme, try and do a list that is 1500 pts.
I agree that 1500 has some balance strengths over 2000 in terms of "must give things up". But it also loses some balance strengths by making roster slots matter less.
In addition, frankly, it's unfair to a few armies. If you're running 1k Sons, your basic Troops squad is 200+ points, maybe 300 if it's big. While Eldar can make nice 80 point units out of Jetbikes to grab objectives. Necrons have no options at all for Troops under 180 points, you can't even say "Well, don't play 1k Sons or summon demons", and it's hard to win when you have to put down that many points in weak troops. Yes, 2000 allows people to fill in Troops AND to take the "goodies", which may be a benefit to the IG where I see them as overdosing on goodies and neglecting the required Troops if they're not careful, in smaller battles. But it's a required benefit to some other armies that just find it hard to have points for goodies after filling in their Troops requirements, due to more expensive Troops. 2000 points gives them the option of having enough Troops to challenge objectives, and still get a decent amount of goodies on the field, while 1500 leaves them with Troops and 2 Toys.
Do armies' competitive balances start to erode quickly under 1,000 points? Sure they do, especially vs. Orks (Which seem to dominate no matter which way you scale!) As for your examples, Necrons have bigger problems than just expensive bland troop choices and everyone acknowledges they need a new codex desperately to be competitive again that goes far beyond the competitiveness of the army at various point levels. As for thousand son armies, they are eclectic and a very specific theme based on fluff more than tactics to begin with seeing as it is one troop choice out of how many that CSM's have? Still can you run two lashes, 3 oblits, and thousand sons at 1500 points? Yes.
As for FOC being less important in smaller point games, that's a matter of perspective and skews based on both mission and army. How many of us still build armies where we take the two minimum troop choices and then max the Elite or Heavy Support slots in 1500 pt games with the idea the troops are there only to take objectives while the other stuff kills and contests? Sure your less likely to run up against the FOC limits, but if you did max out the entire FOC just how many points do you think you are throwing down on the table?
The game work perfectly at 1500 points.
You actually have to think of your army list, and options, and this makes for very tactically fun games, instead of a fluster cluck of models just killing each other a la the entire 4th edition run.
My group enjoys 1500 point lists much more than higher point games.
Just my opinion of course.
@LoD: We play 2K lists up here in Austin, Dunno about you guys down in Houston...
The reason you see 2000 points lists posted is because the local games they play (pickup and tournaments) are 2000 points. All four of the tournaments I've been to this year in Fly Lord Land have been 3 games @ 2000 points.
At 2000 points you have more opportunity to place expensive special/upgrade characters and have to focus more on your individual unit tactics and overall strategy because you've simply got a bigger force to command.
I'm doing this off the top of my head, so I may have some points wrong but this is what I would change to go to 1500 pts:
-2 Infantry Squads
-1 Medusa
-2 Medics
-1 Veteran Demolitions
-2 Valkyrie Sponsons
-2 Plasma Guns (one from each command squad)
+1 Veteram Vox Caster
That's still a pretty nasty army. I wonder if it would hold up in a tournament.
1) Valkyrie has Scout rule allowing it to Outflank. Veterans squad does not. Is it legal to put the Veterans in the Valkyrie and have both Outflank together, or would you be limited to normal Reserve and coming in from your own table edge?
2) I saw the comment about "18 Plasma gun shots", but that's assuming you fire both twice. When you come out of the vehicle you'll only be firing once, right? So that's 18 shots one turn after landing, by which time you'd likely be shot up a bit... wouldn't it be better for a transport-based squad to take Meltas, and save Plasmas for a gunline army?
So 18 plasma gun shots is exactly accurate.
Only the transport needs the Scouts (or Deep Strike or Infiltrate) rule. That's why Space Marines can get inside a Drop Pod and Deep Strike.
2. Nope, rapid-fire doesn't work that way any more. Anytime you fire within 12" you, you fire 2 shots. Even if you move or disembark. Plasmas work extremely well with Deep Strike.
rb: "when an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice"
yeah i guess.
Take Heavy Weapons with your infantry squads. Just because you come onto the table via outflanking doesn't mean that you should only take a meltagun. Instead of deploying everyone onto 1 side of the table consider this idea, split your army into a fire support section and an assault element.
The Fire Support element consists of 3 squads in chimeras with heavy weapons and grenade launchers (Multilaser and Heavy Bolter) and the medusa and enters in on one side of the table while the assault element of 2 squads and Al'Rahim enter the table from the opposite side in 3 chimeras (Multilaser and Heavy Flamer). The Support element sets up a base of fire and the assault element drives head on into the enemy army dropping heavy flamer templates and lots of infantry shots, then your valkeries come on and add some help.
Other ideas: Hydras man, hydras are the shit in the new codex. For 75 points (85 for a heavy stubber) you have more GARUNTEED Str 7 AP 4 hits than anything else in the army at the same range as a battlecannon. Take a Squadron of 3 of these for 225-255 and use it to kill 1-2 enemy squads/vehicles a turn (The shear panic these things inflict on players with speeder heavy armies is ridiculous.). The goal with these is to give your opponent something else to worry about other than your outflankers because most armies if played right can REALLY quickly contain and destroy a single platoon of infantry outflanking it. If you were to take the hydras (Or something else that is intimidating and has a long range.) and one of two heavy weapons teams (Because they are so damned cheap!) and throw them in the center of your deployment zone then your opponent is faced with choices. Does he attack the force on his left, his right, or right in front of him, very few armies have the capacity to do all of these at once. If you REALLY want to play up the "scare him with shit in your deployment zone" option then take a Deathstrike Missile launcher. They only cost 160 points and they are REALLY amuzing, plus your opponent will crap themselves by about turn 4 even if it hasn't shot yet. The Deathstrike is one of those things that absolutely MUST be killed off by your opponent so it would really make him split his army into nicely isolated and killed off elements for you.
So those are my thoughts man. Oh yeah, and I think that the second Command Squad is a waste, they are EXPENSIVE and if you are running Creed you will VERY quickly run out of squads to issue orders too. As of right now you are only running 9 squads, which with a grand total of 7 orders you will NEVER get to use all your orders in most turns (Squads in vehicles can't be ordered.). You'd be better off taking either a second veteran squad or some heavy support to throw in your deployment zone. I know that you are just taking the second unit for the extra Astropath, but trust me that sometimes you WANT your reserves to come in on turn 3 so that you can put them where you actually need them to be.
Huh? Don't have any of those? Big surprise.
Oh, and: Spam spam spam spam. Fun list.
But I guess I'm one of those 'use my real name and use my real picture' kind of guys, lol.
The Fightin' 243rd, Fist of Kerr, from Costa Monty.
2 of the greatest heroes the IG has, both for a 2000 pts army...
I understand that this is a tournament army, but still. It is time to bring that old "no nameds w/o opponent consent rules" back out. Seems named characters are a must for 5th Edition.
basically if you don't want a standard army, you need to sprinkle named characters like seasoning on your squads to spice them up
Im not the biggest fan, but i am having to just grin and bear it, its how every army will be with this editions run of codex's.
How are your Veterans scouting with your Valk? How does this work?
Valks have Scout.
meaning you could field a legal army with just 21 men (lord commissar + 2 squads of veterans)
whereas you couldnt in the last codex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculum_(medical)
I agree. Having the high command of 2 different IG regiments from different planets/subsectors/whatever fighting in the same force? I am interested to know the fluff for this.
"Alternatively, you can use the model and rules for a named character to reprsent a mighty hero of a different Chapter -- for example, using the rules and model for Marneus Calgar as the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, or a Space Marine Chapter of your own design -- you just need to come up with a new name."
For example, my regiment is the XX Cadian Shock Troops. I have a colonel that uses the rules from Lord Castellan Creed, but he's not Creed. I also have a Cadian captain that uses Captain Al'Rahem's rules.
You have to change the way you look at special characters in 5E -- they are basically the new "0-1".