generally speaking I agree, although I do like to keep two squads with low ap weapons, just in case there are some terminators or IC/MC that needs to die, now.
crunchyjuice
· 5 months ago
exactly
Hank
· 5 months ago
I like to mix it up in my IG squads. If they are static, they tend to have a heavy bolter and a plasma gun. Overall, I tend to go to either extreme. Either tons of shots, or low AP, but not much in between (eg grenade launchers)
Ginger_Ninja
· 5 months ago
I've just started using guard and so naturally i'm now going for the wound spamming army lists with a punisher squadron dealing out 60 rolls to hit and all my officers giving out first rank fire!, second rank fire! so in 1 shooting phase i get out about 150-200 shots in a 2000 point list.... Nasty.
Madjob
· 5 months ago
Being an Ork player, I don't have much say in the matter - volume, volume, volume!
Looking at other armies, I would say I generally agree. Oddly enough, Orks seem to lack high volume fire weapons with middling strength - Big Shootas (Dakkaguns as well, I suppose) and Deffguns are about it, only one of those is as reliable for anti light vehicle as it is for anti infantry.
Miami
· 5 months ago
If there's anything I truly believe in in 40K it's that a Space Marine (in ANY form) will only hit with a multi-melta about 1/4 of the time. And if it's within 12" and you really need it to hit because you'd have an almost guaranteed penetrate on that key vehicle... ha. Good luck, ain't gonna happen!
The biggest difference, I think, it that the low AP shots also tend to be one shot, hit or miss. And those spectacular misses burn themselves into us and leave scars, constant reminders of how we shouldn't put all our hopes on that multi-melta, or how we should always call it a rocket launcher and not a MISSile launcher.
The autocannon or heavy bolter fails us just as much, but we get hits, we get wounds, so we feel at least a partial success, even if all saves are made. The job was almost done, and we get the feeling that next time, if there is a next time, that gun will do the job.
Average strength weapons also don't get shot at those big targets... I'll fire a multi-melta at a land raider from over 12" because at least it has a chance when hardly anything else does. But an autocannon at a Soul Grinder? There's most likely a better option.
Overall, I find that autocannons and heavy bolters (and just about any ork weapon!) are the reliable, feel good weapons that can get you by. But the big, spectacular wins? Those are won on the shoulders of big moments, and those are often times brought to you by the big weapons like Lascannons.
That Guy
· 5 months ago
A character like Vulkan becomes more valuable as you build a list around him; you are essentially paying 70 points of a MoTF with beamer to twin link (in my case) 12 Multimeltas, 3 melta guns, and 3 combi meltas (and the 9 heavy flamers too).
Space Marines got lucky in that they have a way to better the odds when going with the low RoF/low ap option.
BeastOfShadow
· 5 months ago
Speeder spam?
Anon
· 5 months ago
Vulkan is gouda. Always.
maturin
· 5 months ago
Surely not if you limit the melta/flamer spam in your army. I don't want my list to be unfun to play against - that's why I've limited my vulkan army to 2 multi-meltas, 2 meltas, 2 flamers, and 1 heavy flamer (at 1500 points).
I feel this is reasonable, yet gives my Sallies the "feel" of having nicer weapons than usual...reasonable or not?
Miami
· 5 months ago
Respeck, Maturin.
I personally don't like running special characters, except for maybe the occasional apocalypse match. With how GW is currently designing codexes, this probably hurts me a bit as they seem to be forcing their special characters down our throats if we want to win, but so be it. I'm having fun. And maybe my multimeltas always miss. I'm sure even with Vulkan I'd still miss. Always.
BeastOfShadow
· 5 months ago
A charecter like Vulkan gets more powerful the large the points used to play a game.
SM
· 5 months ago
Good point, even though a melta will wound and ap a Carnifex, we're talking about 1 measly wound out of 4, and then the melta squad gets pwnd in close combat (depending on the build of the carnifex).
That's why I prefer plasma against MC/TMCs, because you still have all of that strength and low ap, but with the added bonus of larger RoF.
Affe
· 5 months ago
It's simple enough math that as you increase the number of dice the reliability and predictability of the results goes up. All Ork players have learned this on the battlefield even if they slept through the stats chapter in grade 10 math!
Sometimes you do need to make that 2+ Carnifex go away though. Plasma Spam is not *totally* replaced by volume.
YellowRex
· 5 months ago
Exactly what I was thinking when I read this article.
The technical term is "variance".
anon
· 5 months ago
actually the variance of an individaul roll cannot be adjusted by rolling more dice. for a Binomial Distribution (which dice throwing is a perfect example of) the variance is equal to the number of trials x prob. of succes x prob. of failure. If you roll one dice hoping for a six, the variance = 1 x 1/6 x 5/6. if you roll six dice, the variance for the whole trial = 6 x 1/6 x5/6. therefore the variance for a single dice roll within a six dice trial is still 1 x 1/6 x 5/6. Granted, the more dice you roll, the more likely it is that you will do damage, but it does not affect the probability of each individual weapon doing damage.
Lorieth
· 5 months ago
Sorry if this is too pedantic, but the relevant term here is "standard deviation", which is the square-root of the variance and gives an indication of the likely spread of results. Broadly speaking, 2 out 3 results will lie within one standard deviation of the average, and 19 out of 20 will lie within twice that range.
Because the average score increases with the number of dice, but the standard deviation only increases as the square-root of the number of dice, the percentage variation becomes less the more dice you roll -- hence the claim that it is "more reliable".
anon
· 5 months ago
most of what you are saying is correct but you have missed the point slightly. I agree that the standard deviation only increases as the square-root of the number of dice, but by the definition of VARIANCE the variance increases therefore as the square of the square-root of the number of dice, i.e. it increases linearly with the number of dice. As a consequence, while rolling more dice certainly increases reliability that you will hit SOMETHING, it does not at all increase reliability of an individual weapon in question.
That Guy
· 5 months ago
40k has a lot of problems and in this case, one of them is that a lot of units in 5th edition have a clear best loadout that usually results from a combination of cost and survivability. In some cases this bleeds into FOC, where something is too good and using anything but it in that slot turns into a sacrifice on your part.
AC/HB Predators for example; 85 points for 8 shots and you can get 3. Where else do you get that kind of volume for so low a cost? It's expendable and moderately survivable (but significantly less than av14). If you make it an Annihilator, it just became a bigger threat to your enemy - meaning higher target priority - and a much bigger points sink for you that a properly built 5th edition list can handle easily.
Another good example; a model's BS. The lower it is, the more shots you want and this is almost always the case. The higher it is, the more free you are to start picking low RoF weaponry. The difference here is that high BS does both low and high RoF well.
Long story short; we as players have a lot less 'choice' than we think we do when it comes to building an army. Lots of slots and units simply lack the option to choose worthwhile rate of fire over low ap or vice versa. Some armies just don't have the option of high RoF over low AP (Hello, bugs). Well, I suppose you still have all the choice you want inside of the rules, the question is how much choice do you have if you want to remain effective and/or competitive. Answer; not much.
Kriegfreak
· 5 months ago
Well, it used to be quite a bit harder, but with the new IG codex most of my AP problems are answered. So for the troops I usually fit in autocannons/Heavy Bolters/Flamers. Anything to help off-set the lower BS. I'll usually throw in one or two AP weapons, usually a lasscannon here or there. But most of my AP needs are handled by the big tanks or storm-troopers. Aside from that, I'd rather play the numbers game and settle for more hits/wounds.
Harkan Ironfist
· 5 months ago
For me it depends on the type of unit. In my Chaos Marine army, my Marine squads only have one heavy weapon slot, so I take heavy bolters for the high rate-of-fire (also I converted them up from Devastator heavy bolters so I like the way they look). This way I'm not relying on a single shot to hit, and because it's anti-infantry, I can use the rest of the squad's bolters to back it up.
Other types of heavy weapons I would prefer to save for dedicated heavy weapons squads such as Havocs. Taking four lascannons in a single squad (while very expensive) reduces the risk of hit-or-miss, and ensure they will do something to whatever they are shooting at. Autocannons are too middle-ground for my liking (average rate-of-fire, average strength and AP), so again, I would save them for heavy weapon squads so I can use them en masse against light vehicles or heavy infantry.
Thirteen
· 5 months ago
I swear by the double scatterlaser warwalker squadron, 180 points for 24 S6 shots? Sign me up twice over, Guide those little puppies and your set to jet.
ben
· 5 months ago
Or even Shuriken Cannons on war walkers. 120 points for 18 outflankable S6 shots a turn? Hard bargain to beat.
I find that Eldar are kind of the masters of volume fire. Between Bladestorm Dire Avengers, the fact that our heavy weapons are minimum S6, and Guide to re roll hits, there are S6 shots causing wounds like crazy from my Eldar army. This is kind of what we have to do, as there aren't really that many low AP guns around, and where they are the cost way to many points.
Admiral_Drax
· 5 months ago
I remember when this feature of the (then) new Eldar Codex was discussed in White Dwarf. As a Guard player with expensive and vulnerable multilaser sentinels my soul died a little that day.
Still, it's hard to justify complaints about Guard these days...
Eric Jr Johnson Brose
· 5 months ago
I have to agree more and more.. while I will always be taking melta guns in my tactical squads, I am leaning towards take at least one (if not two) heavy bolter devastator squads. This last year at the adepticon championship, the high rate of fire would have done me better than the low AP weapons i loaded out on....
the david
· 5 months ago
I think it all depends on who you're fighting the current circumstances. If you look at the statistics; let's take Imperial guard versus space Marines. If you have 100 guardsmen with less guns firing with first rank order. That's 300 shots. Only half what will hit out of that 150 only 33% will wound. Out of that 50 most will save leaving 33 dead Marines. That may be enough to win the game.
Slate Blank
· 5 months ago
I believe your math is off, with a 3+ save on those 50 wounds you get 16.666 dead marines...
the david
· 5 months ago
yip i'm off. thats 33 saves 17 died. math a 2am what can i say
Cap'n Khorne
· 5 months ago
with lasguns! You will kill 15-18 marines not 33, check your maths, low Ap blast weapons are the best, they will kill more than lasguns ever can! (battlecannons FTW!)
Dave
· 5 months ago
but as soon as you have a daemon prince or one of the greater daemons jump your army that same battle cannon will only be doing one wound, while the mighty las gun can strip off several a turn :) rate of fire is always your friend :)
limunpai
· 5 months ago
In the special weapon category, the meltagun comes on top. AP1 and the melta rule really makes it something to fear no matter how unreliable the shooter is. This makes the melta an area denial weapon that helps control your opponents actions.
The flamer, to me, comes second in special weapons. This is an aggressors weapon rather than a control weapon like the meltagun. Flamers cause kills with reliability and can therefore be used in a confident manner.
For heavy weapons, many more options are available. Long range AT is a necessity: without it, you have no way to stop some models in the game, like Fire Prisms, and these will spend the entire game slaughtering your army.
After rudimentary long range AT is considered, I like to take at least one blast weapon if I'm building an army that can take them. Blast weapons are great when opponents have clumped up models and are the most efficient weapons in this case. In some situations, an opponent can't help but clump up, and having this opportunity weapon really capitalizes on that. If an opponent never clumps up, it's because you took the blast weapon, and his army is spread out and more vulnerable because of it. This makes the blast weapon win/win. Just don't count on them for long range kills.
I do think that after you are reasonably confident in your long range AT, high rate of fire weapons are probably better buys than more long range AT, particularly transport killing weapons like Autocannons and Scatter Lasers if your AT isn't very strong. If your AT is strong, high rate of fire anti-infantry weapons at long range add reliability to your force and make it so that anything shot out or has gotten out of their transport has something to fear.
Overall, I believe there are necessary AP weapons, but high rate of fire weapons are more effective after you've got the necessary weapons.
Roa
· 5 months ago
I almost always go with either rate of fire or blast potential when it comes to trying to kill anything with a T stat. All of my line squads in my IG army are Autocannon/Grenade Launcher set up (giving up one shot from the HB, but still multi-shot and allowing for anti-AV12 potential) and my CSM squads all run with flamers.
If I have a choice, the multi-shot or template weapons are almost always my default choice.
faolan_conall
· 5 months ago
I like a mix of the two, gives more tactical flexibility.
kaptin scuzgob
· 5 months ago
As an Ork player, I can tell you all that none of you have enough dakka, my good sirs
SinSynn
· 5 months ago
As a Tau player, I'd say they all need more low AP weaponry ;)
Morgan666
· 5 months ago
I say go deep in anything you choose. Sisters are best for this. I will have one squad with 4 hv bolters then another with 4 melta guns, another with 4 flamers. Transports are heavily required to get the right weapon for the right job but they are cheap enough.
m0rm0k
· 5 months ago
The answer is high strength, low AP, and cause a lot of wounds. How... blast weapons. Plasmacannons, battlecannons, demolisher cannons, hellstrike missiles, Medusas, etc. Today I killed a Land Raider with one Medusa, and Then another Medusa killed 3 of the 5 termies that fell out. Blast weapons are worth it every time.
Yaleling
· 5 months ago
As a primarily tyranid player there is not much choice. ;) Massed poor AP fire is all we've got. So I get really excited at taking good AP weapons when I break out the marines or chaos. (Probably too excited...)
Faolain
· 5 months ago
No kidding. I hit 8 marines the other night with a barbed strangler and wounded 7, and only killed one! They were right out in the open too. Very frustrating indeed.
Yaleling
· 5 months ago
Oh too true! Sometimes my stranglers do nothing. But sometimes they go gangbusters. In one lucky shot I hit and wounded 10 grey knights and killed 5 of them. What I find so dangerous about massed poor AP fire is not the average damage - but the potential damage. Players fear that.
I run a big brood of warriors with deathspitters and a barbed strangler. While they are fragile (being warriors) my gaming buddies fear them: not for the average damage they do but the remember the horror shooting phases. In one phase that brood shot at some guardsmen and the only damage was one wound on my hive tyrant (bad scatter and failed my 2+ save...), but everyone remembers the game where they shot 20 fabius bile enhanced super marines and clocked up 37 wounds. There was not much of the squad left after that.
With tyranids being a very 'psychological' army I like the fear of my potential damage over the real average effectiveness. ;)
Azhrarn
· 5 months ago
Daemons don't really have access to much shooting to begin with, so I maximise the use I get out of what I can bring.
The high rate of fire of Horrors is quite lethal, I field them in squads of 15, 45 shots per turn on a target of my choice is going to mess people up, even MEQ who generally don't have the numbers on their side. (Average 3-4 dead marines per turn)
Other than that I have to agree with the templates comment, Template (either Blast, Large Blast or Flamer) weapons are great in 5th edition, they allow you to inflict many wounds, while often having a low enough AP value to really ruin a Space Marine's day.
The Phlegm upgrade for the Soulgrinder and the Breadth of Chaos attack of Flamers of Tzeentch both are great examples of this. Highly lethal template weapons that can still inflict a lot of wounds on a squad.
My opponents quite often underestimate the Flamers, but a unit that spews 6 flamer templates that always wounds on a 4+ and ignore both Cover and Armour saves is going to ruin the day of whatever gets in their sights.
SinSynn
· 5 months ago
I recently purchased 2 new Tau tanks, and am building them to be switchable Ion Head/Hammer Head models. But I think I'll be running the Ion Heads more, as they put out a retarted amount of shots when they have Burst Cannons equipped- 3 str7 ap3 shots from the turret, and 6 str5 ap5 shots from the 'sponsons'- those burst cannons fire seperately, which is nice for more shooty-ness. 9 shots per tank, x2 tanks is a lotta bullets flying around, and those boys wipe out Guardsmen by the bushel. (gotta run broadsides in the last elite slot to have railgun coverage. A stealth markerteam to guide them is nice, too) In 5th it does pay to go for output, as everyone and his brother can claim a cover save now, so drowning them in shots will eventually lead to failed saves....in theory. In practice, it's all a crapshoot, ain't it?
kgbfljuhjk
· 5 months ago
Railhuns have little worth They are 90 pts, in which you could almost get a whole new hammerhead w/ an ion cannon. However, at this point with Tau needing an update all most as much as necrons, I avoid tanks all together More points for crisis
SinSynn
· 5 months ago
A Tau army pretty much has to run a few railguns, and I bring mine on Broadsides nowadays, twinlinked str10 ap1 shots- unfortunately at ws3- are always useful. I bring 3 with the Advanced Stabilizers and a few shield or gundrones, or a mix of both. They can move and shoot and are well protected. With guidance from a couple markerlights, they generally get the job done. I do get upset when I miss with one or two out of the 3 man squad, but like I said- It's a crapshoot...... In all honesty I'm looking foward to running the Ionheads- had good results when I used to run one, so the pair should be very menacing running around together >:)
mithril
· 5 months ago
i always run my hammerheads with railguns. the ion cannon might put out more shots, but my crisis teams with plasma, missiles, and multitrackers put out more, at stronger str, and higher SP. for not much more. i find the mixture of high mobility, survivability, and the railgun (take multitracker and disruption pod on the hammerhead) makes it an excellent means to handle enemy tanks. and the ability to shoot submunitions all the way across the board is very useful. maybe i'm fighting very differant armies, but i've found the railgun hammerhead to be very cost effective. our local guard players hate my hammerheads, since it's cheaper than a russ, and far more effective.
Farsight
· 5 months ago
With a railgun, you get a good tank-buster and an good infantry-slayer at the same time. Besides, the submunition shot doesn't count as ordinance, so you can still fire burst cannons as well. With a Hammerhead, you get way more hits than with an ion cannon, and with ap4 it is excellent at taking out gaurdsmen.
Crisis plasma rifles are for those pesky MEQs.
Dajanitor
· 5 months ago
Being a marine player i like plasma cannons. Low ap, Blast.
Love it. Great Against a lot. But i too like heavy bolter and am considering using them in my tactical squads instead of a rocket launcher
manton
· 5 months ago
I've gotta say, it's all about balance really. I mean what could be better than a plasma gun? rapid firing s7 AP2? it's got rate of fire, strength and low AP. While i will admit melta has its place, I found while playing with space puppies, that rate of fire is my highest priority when my opponent will almost always outnumber me in some rediculous fashion. IG is different because you have high rate of fire from your thousand odd guardsmen per 100 points fielded, so you have the luxury of taking low AP for special weapons, but fewer troops on the table generally means you have to get the most out of each one.
Boss_SneakyDakka
· 5 months ago
As an ork player, I rely on insane volume since I really dont have much of a choice. Besides throwing all those dice is alot fun and the opponent gets a little un-nerved. Even better is the fact that I dont care care if my boys die, they suck! Yet a marine dieing to a shoota, totally awesome! So yeah Volume, oh and CLOSE COMBAT!!!!!
Alex Williams
· 5 months ago
I have to admit, im a fan of quantity over quality especially given im a guard player with a healthy amount of cannon fodder to play with. I like my autocannons and heavy bolters and try to stear clear of the Special weapons in my front line grunt squads.
Christian
· 5 months ago
Hi!
My Dark Angels are armed with Plasma weapons, and bolters. so i have a good mix of lots of shots and "ignores Armor" weapons. I also have built my own Razorback Tower with a Plasmacannon on it. Nice explosive.
My Cybot too has a Plasmacannon (scratchbuild out of the storm cannon, and a devastor marine). So everything that comes closer to my brave Angels, has a lot of let's say "a lots of things to think about" :-)
this weapon loadout would work very well, if i just would roll the dice better... I'm a bit unlucky when it comes to hit and wound rolls. ;-)
scotchjon
· 5 months ago
I've been a guard player for years and never liked the anchor of a heavy weapon in my line squads - much prefer being able to move and fire. I'll generally take 2 infantry platoons, one with flamers in the squads, the other with meltaguns to give any approaching land raiders something to think about.
Then in my heavy weapon squads I'll have a couple mortar squads (so cheap who can refuse them if you draw a horde army) along with 3 anti tank - either 2 lascannon 1 missile or 2 missile one lascannon. the missiles have the advantage of being able to use frag if there aren't any big things left to kill, whereas if I'm likely to be facing land raiders it helps not to put all my lascannons in one basket.
Alternatively, if I run a more mechanised force, well my last army had a hydra, battle cannon and two hellhounds for putting out lots of wounds. I also had a vanquisher for the anti tank, plus a couple veteran squads with meltaguns and meltabombs for AT duties. pack the veterans in chimeras and my command section in a valkyrie for more high fire rates, with a couple of penal legion squads for claiming objectives.
James
· 5 months ago
Simple rule - Quantity has a quality all of it's own. Or to put it in simple terms: everything counts in large amounts.
James
· 5 months ago
Hear, hear
(Another) James
Steve
· 5 months ago
RoF just outdoes AP in 5th. With so many cover saves around and the rise to power of orc boyz lists you need to be able to pump out wounds. A hive tyrant with 12 devourer shots could kill ~3 MEQ or 1-2 termies, but shove him against orcs and if they arent in cover 9 should get eaten. A plasma cannon may be just as good vs marines, better vs termies but it wont be nearly as effective against a hoard.
Having said that I still believe in playing to your own strengths. Nids dont have low AP, but they can pump out more wounds then just about anyone. Space wolves are a little weird. They cant have high RoF but do throw massed attacks at targets- I have lots of AP2 blasts and guns supporting enough blood claws to make anyone whimper... still relying on CC equivalent RoF while having powerfists to help deal with anyone truly nasty.
Sangre
· 5 months ago
We live in the age of the melta, and there doesn't seem to be a lot we can do about that...
dave
· 5 months ago
5th edition has really become the age of the melta gun. iver switched my usual plasma/melta/combi flamer deathguard squads into pure melta carry squads with 2 mrltas and a combi melta on ther fist. at 2000 points i run 6 units of these in rhinos, and my record has gone up win wise ever since i did.
Skorsson
· 5 months ago
Tyranid players lack the low AP weapons altogether (the lowest being an assault 1 S10 AP2 18" shot requiring a psychic test on a BS 3 model) - not even close to reliable, though often necessary due to the new vehicle damage table. No melta, plasma, lascannons... the only option left is high rate of fire provided mainly by devourers on MC/Warriors. Lacking flamers, they need to rely on high rate of fire and CC to kill infantry and MC's; lacking melta weapons, lascannons, or even autocannons, the need to rely on "shaking or stunning" vehicles and killing them later in CC. since 5th is a "vehicle" edition, with vehicles being far more durable, far cheaper, and far safer places to hide your infantry than in 4th, Tyranids are in for a hard time. But the shall prevail, and hopefully the new codex will slightly balance this issue ;-)
To sum up, I'll go for high rate of fire over low AP in general, but I'd take melta or lascannons (if i had such weapons) vs. obliterators and vehicles. Oh, and if you can have rerolls anywhwere, take them. Opponets tend to cackle maniacally when you roll bad on an important roll - this happens much less often if you take rerolls - whether it is Vulcan, Warp Time, Twin-linked, Living Ammunition, Guide etc., go for it!
Faolain
· 5 months ago
When I face Marines with my nids, they don't even worry about cover. Who needs it when nothing they have can penetrate your armor?
Jaradakar
· 5 months ago
I agree with you. 5th ED has devalued low AP weapons which makes the higher point costs of said weapons not as good of a deal.
The two big factors:
1) GW has handed out too many Invuln saves and/or given too good of invuln saves. For example Termies with shields, 3+ invuln saves? Or some demons also share 3+ invun.
2) The increased amount of cover saves.
Problem #1 could be fixed by adding weapons that ignore invlun saves -- but that imo is a really bad idea. It's total AP creap which is bad. So really imo GW has screwed themselves here and we're going to have to live with high invuln saves for a long long while.
Problme #2 could be fixed by expanding the cover rules. I really think cover should be split up into Hard/Soft categories. Hard Cover acts just as cover does today. Soft Cover is defeated by low AP weapons (just as armor is).
I don't think this would over complicated the game and help make lower AP weapons (which already cost more and tend to have fewer shots) see greater benefit for being used.
That said having a complete lack of low AP weapons means terrain/cover does not even need to be used. For that reason having some lower AP weapons can keep your opponnet honest and force them to actually use terrain to there advantage.
Xas
· 5 months ago
I like the massive-amounth-of-saves approach. the only weapons that have low AP in my army are those anti-tank guns that get it "for free" because I need them vs vehicles.
namely meltars, warp blasts and lascannons.
UltramarineFan
· 5 months ago
Low AP blasts are the answer. Battle cannons, plasma cannons, IG melta cannon, etc. Though if I am given the choice I always take the option of more shots, simply because I don't trust myself to hit when rolling 1 or 2 dice. That's partly why I was attracted to orks and IG because the way I roll 3+ marine armour I might as well be failing the 5s and 6s.
Facebook User
· 5 months ago
As most of my opponents are vehicle heavy lists, I tend to need more low ROF, low AP wepoans, although, I do tend to balance this with as many high ROF weapons I can... Things like Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters are very common in my army...
Fatso
· 5 months ago
Since I regularly take three squads of basic infantry and a fourth of specialised (GJ's for Eldar, Sniper Scouts for Marines and Berserkers, usually, for CSM) I end up pigeonholing everyone: anti-vehicle; anti-heavy infantry (3+ and 2+ saves); anti-light infantry (4+ and worse saves), with one squad for each to cover all my bases. For heavy support choices it's pigeonholed in the same way, only even worse (i.e. anti-AV14-vehicles and anti-horde, seeing the expression on any player when I turn up with 3 War Walkers with twin shuriken cannons and it don't matter that they get wacked early, they didn't cost me anything!!).
mordiano
· 5 months ago
So I guess the discussion is low AP vs high rate of fire when going for armoured infantry?
Particularly the usefullness of plasmacannons/guns. Thats a valid debate.
But we should also consider that low AP weapons are also (normaly) high strength (they used to be directly related). You wont bag any vehicle by 300 lasgun shots, terminators yes, but vehicles no.
So you need some high strength weapons for vehicles aswell, and they are aswell, as a side effect, low AP (lascannons etc).
Another point is that plasmaguns dont directly have competition in their slot for high volume weapons. They are special the others are heavy.
For my own guard army I have meltaguns and -rocket- launchers. The rockets to help with the under 24 inch shooting of my guardsmen (frag) and by taking diagonal shots (when opportunity arrise) at vehicle side armour (krak) as the squads are on both flanks. Then meltaguns because, well, they are meltaguns :)
jgf
· 5 months ago
I think this really depends on what the application. For vehicles AP1 or go home most of the time. Though for light vehicles like rhinos etc. lots of S6-7 shots will do the trick.
Against infantry, more shots from further away on fast movers is my preference. Re-rolls on top of this make things scary, look at a bike marine list or guided eldar.
Then again D.Eldar get to cheaply spam S8 shots and plasma cannons. Often one needs to look at what the cheapest way to equip something and that ends up being the way to do said item. Predators are an example given above with AC/HB.
There is a hierarchy to weaponry, assuming the same S... 1 shot = ok trin-linked = better, 2+ shots best. Think back to when immolators dropped two flame templates instead of re-rolling wounds, that's a whole nother type of nasty.
Other things to consider is mobility, do you have the luxury of avoiding your opponent for most of the game? Range, can you sit back and kill things as the approach? There is no blanket this is best in this situation. Though cover definitely hurt medium-low AP. AP1 is still great on vehicles upping your kill chance to 50% or greater is amazing when lots of mech shows up.
Each meta game is gonna be different. For example, I have seen lots of guard infantry, but the mech is just starting to trickle in in my area.
mordiano
· 5 months ago
True.
What I wnted to say is that AP and S is usually correlated: If you have low AP weapons they usually aswell have high strength and become vehicle killers rather than anti-infantry.
AP1 on the other hand has effects on vehicles aswell, thats true.
Awe
· 5 months ago
I've found that weight of fire is no substitute for high strength low AP weapons. My experience is however coloured by the armies I regularly face. I do not tailor my army for each game so I use the configuration that works the best most of the time. I've found that no amount of 'weak' fire power I pour into Plague Marines will drop them. They are just too resilient, ditto for Nurgle Terminators. Also against 2+ Save Carnifixs rate of fire is pretty much useless. You also need high strength weapons to take out enemy vehicles (esp the ones with ordinance weapons). If I need rate of fire to accomplish something I just move my marines forward and rapid fire my bolters into the enemy. I'd always go for a lascannon as my Tactical Squad heavy weapon of choice as I don't find the loss of a couple of shots a turn (compared to a heavy bolter) to be much of a hindrance, while I find the heavy bolter's utter inability to challange enemy armour to be rather debilitating.
LastLine
· 5 months ago
Personally I prefer rate of fire, as my marines frankly can't hit a barn door with a bolt pistol. See as I play White Scars it also helps that I don't go for Heavy Weapons generally.
Masses of relentless twin linked bolt guns are a good rule of thumb for me.
qwack
· 5 months ago
I would like to have more mid strength, mid AP weaponry available, but chaos marines don't get it easy or cheaply. Bolters though, are in abundance, and I use Noise Marines. I definitely find in 5th, with 4+ coversaves, Noise Marines outperform Thousand Sons against MEQs. I rarely have a problem with horde orks.
I struggle, though, against medium-heavy vehicles who are out of melta range, and against 2+ armour. Taking AP 2 weaponry is necessary against Terminators and Meganobs, both of which are fairly common in the local tourney scene (and I think fairly strong in the metagame). If I could get S6 weapons like Eldar though, it would be great as AV10-11 walkers, skimmers, and transports are being spammed. Hell I'm even looking at Chaos dreadnoughts as a viable platform for autocannons.
Tyler Enz
· 5 months ago
Why would your opponent have a cover save? Thousand sons should be accompanied by a lash.
cmc
· 5 months ago
When you lash your opponents squad and they fail the pin check, it's essentially making them go to ground, which gives them a 6+ cover save.
DMK
· 5 months ago
haha the OMGS YOU AREN'T USING LASH IN CHEESY COMBOS people are awesome, how dare he not use a cookie cutter power combo.
verirh
· 5 months ago
Any non-marine player willlook for any cover save they can get. Why have a 5 or 6 plus save when you can get a 3 or 4 plus save? Hence the need for LOTS of shots no matter the AP. This way the opponent has to make more saves. Mathhammer rules!
Shaggyterry
· 5 months ago
I've always fielded a combo of anti armour and anti infantry to all my armies. If the heavy weapon is a lascannon, the special is a grenade launcher and so on. And I have to agree with Bigred, volume speaks loudly and carries a big stick. I won my last tournament because of focused volume of low power weapons.
Atticus
· 5 months ago
I play Orks, so I take plenty of dakka! Big shootas in squads are fine, since they have high rate of fire and statistically get a hit every round, but I've found rokkit launchas to be next to useless with BS2, although I've heard success stories from other players. I love my Lootas, since they generally pour out massive fire and they have high enough strength to wound infantry easily and even pop light tanks or MCs. However, Orks can compromise rate of fire with high AP in the Shokk Attack Gun. It's AP2 and a large blast, which rolls 2d6 for armor penetration. Despite it's variable strength and potential nasty side effects, I find them quite effective.
Jo
· 5 months ago
I always take missile launchers: I like their versitality. they can pop tanks or take down termies etc. HOwever, at the same time they can be ablast pinning shot if you want (eldar). in addition, if you have them on a wave serpent then you lessen the possibility of that one shot missing (twin-linked.
Jmaeta
· 5 months ago
Since 5th editon I changed the loadout of my Vypers. From Bright Lances to Scatterlasers. Better chances at hitting Light Vehicles and more fire to pour at Infantry. With enough shots even Termies fall. (Units are usually no larger than 5 anyway.)
With Eldar its not just having more shots, but you're able to bring the firepower where it counts. So almost everything fires at a small part of the battlefield.
My Firedragons sit on the bench most of the time. Though i do use a D-cannon most of the time. (Together with a firebase of Wraithguard, a shooty Wraithlord and a unit of Dire Avengers.)
Daddy
· 5 months ago
+++ As a long term Ravenwing player I have to say I'd rather have more firepower than one-shot low AP. I can have quite a few assualt cannons, multimeltas and hvy bolters in my army. That being said the upgrades for bike squadrons tend to be only flamers or meltas and never plasma.
Gustav
· 5 months ago
I too have learnt to love volume of fire, and think the lowly under-rated multi laser is a great weapon. I learnt about volume of fire from a friend's tyranid army -- his tyrant had twin linked devourers which were easily removing a squad a turn with the roughly 25 hits per turn...
Alexander Kinn
· 5 months ago
Yeah there is nothing like a warrior squad dropping 2-5 small str 6. blasts and a a large blast that pins to ruin your day.
Andy
· 5 months ago
How is it that assault cannons have not been mentioned before a few posts ago?
A high shot output, a moderate AP, a moderate strength, and the ability to rend?
The Assault cannon combines the ability to tear through infantry, and tanks. It is the all around best weapon, imho.
Son of Dorn
· 5 months ago
I really mix it up. I guess I lean on meltas, multimeltas, demolishers, assault cannons, flamers and heavy flamers (the sternguards heavy flamer is one of my favorites). I use two godhammer lascannons a lot too, but I get a tonne of mileage out of boltguns.
More than RoF, I prefer blast and template weapons. One guy in a ten-man squad with a flamer gets 5-7 hits alone and increases the odds of my opponent failing some saves. Unless he's not playing a MEQ army, in which case AP5 is often good enough.
Anything below AP4 is cool, but unless its an anti-tank weapon, I'm not going out of my way to get one. I really prefer meltaguns over plasma, because I charge, and I can occasionally bag a tank with it.
ligolski
· 5 months ago
as a space marine player I play mechanized for the most part, but I have some devastator squads. Personally I <3 lascannons, they are the solve all for a space marine army imo except for hoards of stuff...but thats why I have lots of marines running and gunning with flamers and bolters...I use both predators in one of my lists so I can take on a wide range of armor mixes and armor itself. though lately I've been trying to mix it up and get a land raider in there since it lasts longer :)
cncplyr
· 5 months ago
I haven't actually played for many years now, but when I did I used to agree with you, loading up mainly on autocannons. However after my main opponent changed army, I realised why. He used to play dark eldar, so there was never any point in taking anything better, but when he changed to ig with a full complement of leman russes, i didn't last very long!
Brother Suspectus
· 5 months ago
All good points, but I find that when up against SM and Termies... low ap is the way to reliably score those kills to wear down that squad. Hoard armies... volume.
MaxisLithium
· 5 months ago
people may think me strange, but I am all about versatility. I find that some RoF weapons, like Autocannons and heavy bolters, are good in purpose-built squads, just like Lascannons, but for a tectically flexable troop squad, nothing works better then a Rocket Launcher. The abiity to fire a S8 shot at monsters and tanks, or the ability to lob a blast template at hoards is well worth it's points. in an 'all comers' list, I never want to tie myself down to one tactical layout. If I'm playing marines, or an army which has a decent armour save I'll back that up with Plasma. It's Rapid fire, which means it functions range and RoF like the other weapons in the unit, keeping it consistant, but it higher St and low AP makes it all around best of it's options. In a guard army (my beloved guard) I tent to swap between Sniper rifles and Grenade lainchers. Sniper rifles are my prefered weapon, simply because of range. I can toss off powerful shots (always wounding on 4+) against anything at range. More range means more shots before they reach me. The possibility if pinning and rending also add to it's attractivness. It means the unit now has 2 weapons that are heavy, but for most guard squads, sitting back and shooting is what they're intended to do.
Daranara
· 5 months ago
With my Space Marines I usually run 10 devastators with 4 Heavy Bolters. Why? Big load of shots make it possible to kill hard armoured foes like the Space Marines and terminators, but it also gives me possibility to kill mass armies, like Orks and Tyranids. But I also have Predator with lascannan and heavy bolters. Lascannon usually misses (even though it's twin-linked) and the heavy bolters are the thing that destroy that rhino (3 immobilised at the same time, YAYYY!). As for Tactical Squads, I usually take Lascannon, Plasmacannon and Missile Launcher, for the tanks can also be big and scary. Still, with Imperial Guard, big strenght and low ap weapons are my choise, for not only they give me possibility to kill tanks, there are so many of them that they can scare even masses (and missiles have frag missiles, not forgetting the lasguns..).
WES
· 5 months ago
Historically, my most lethal squad was armed with 4 heavy bolters. More dice = more armor saves, more chances to fail.
After that, the second most lethal thing was a squad armed with multiple flamers... Especially lethal against necrons, believe it or not. Necron players always like to line their squads up behind monoliths, or when they gate through them. A single flamer template will cover an entire squad, if they're all lined 2 x 5 in a row. I've wiped out entire squads of necrons with flamer templates.
Lascannons... meh. The dice gods hate me. If I have a squad with 4 lascannons, they will miss...
ligolski
· 5 months ago
yea thats why i put them on tanks and most are twin linked lol
link6413
· 5 months ago
I play Tau and so I have a few choices but I prefer to have the bulk of my force with a high rate of fire and a couple of low AP weapons like the Broadsides Railguns. Sure low AP goes through armor better but if each of my Fire Warrior squads can pump out 24 rounds per turn in rapid fire range my chances of penetrating are that much better.
King_Wibble
· 5 months ago
I play space marines and I prefer more dice with a few kills than 1 dice, 1 kill (if the dice love you that is). Heavy bolters, assault cannons, flamers all make sense. I have heavier weapons with fewer dice in my devastator squads, but the razorbacks are all twin linked heavy bolters just to lay down serious armour chewing fire if enemy units are getting close. As for the tactical squads, I take the free heavy bolter, more dice than the other units weapons that you pay for, better than relying on a decent blast, and never have to worry about getting hot. Add that to 4-7 marines with rapid firing bolters, that many dice is going to shred or at least hurt an enemy unit. Yes they have problems with heavy armour on the field, but all tactical squads have an armour hurting component, mostly either a meltagun or a combi melta. I cant say I have a problem with facing most armies, and tbh if it wasn't for the extra dice rolls I would get no-where because my dice rolling seems to fail every time!!
Azrael
· 5 months ago
My 1500 point guard army generates just under 100 S5 shots a turn, you can probably see which side I favour :p
Necron_Lord
· 5 months ago
As a necron player, I have to go with high rate of fire. Against MEQ armies, that is the only option one has, because the only weapons which can negate power armor are heavy gauss cannons of HDs, which can be shot to death way to easily. Playing against MEQ armies with Necrons, one also sees the disadvantages of relying upon massed firepower. If you roll crap and/or your opponent rolls well for saves, it can be pretty demoralizing, especially if it happens two or more turns in a row.
I am also starting a DE Kabal, and with that army, I would say that you would have to go for the low AP. Getting DLs for 10 pts with BS 4 is much better for the warriors than splinter cannons, and it would be great for destroying MCs/ICs as well as heavy armor and has 12" better range. I suppose low volume low AP can be pretty demoralizing as well if you have a hard time hitting when you really need it, but as a Necron player, I wouldn't know.
sodcactus
· 5 months ago
Devourerspam is always fun. I proxied a list where the only weapon I used was Devourer (and also 2 VC/BS for AT). Every turn I could easily churn out around 160 shots (with S:3-6 w reroll to wound). On turn 4 my SM-opponent gave up.
Dooley
· 5 months ago
It is my opinion and experience that if you drown an opponent in armor saves they are inevitably going to fail as opposed to if they only have to make 1 or 2 higher invulnerable saves.
The down side to the multiple shot weapons is usually there low strength and AP. All too often I have seen fist fulls of dice rolled to hit and wound only to be whittled down to only a few armor saves which are inevitably shrugged off.
But I have also seen a Solo Lascannon shot bring down a Monolith on a turn 1 salvo!
And lets not forget "If you dont take it you cant fail it" In the end I think it comes down to player prefference but if you focus the multi shots on the troops and the low AP high S on vehicles things will work out.
And lets not forget "If you dont take it you cant fail it"
Lorieth
· 5 months ago
The problems with low RoF low AP is that they often cost a lot, are easily negated and lack versatility. In 5th Ed. cover is everywhere, so denying a target an armour save is often of limited value -- for MEQs you're often just trading a 3+ armour save for a 4+ cover save. You can usually get a weapon with similar strength that has double the rate of fire for fewer points, and quite simply they're better options against MEQs.
Even worse, if you stock up on low AP low RoF weapons and run up against a horde army you simply don't have enough shots to deal with them. The high RoF weapons scale perfectly, since you were already dishing out the damage via lots of wounds. Only the low AP blast weapons are worth considering (except for AT of course).
papasmurf
· 5 months ago
personally, i like to have an even mix of both, and it has worked well for me. in my space marine army, i run 3 tactical squads, each with a different loadout. meltagun/multimelta, plasma gun/cannon, and flamer/heavy bolter. and i can see that RoF has it's place, but plasma still has its place for me. that plasma squad rolls in a razorback with a techmarine who has a plasma pistol and a servo harness and the sergeant has a combi plasma, so the squad can effectively rapid fire 6 plasma shots. maybe the dice gods are just nice to me, but this usually puts a big dent in MEQ armies that i face, effectively wiping out those 5 man termie squads. 4+invuns aren't nearly as good as those 2+ armor saves, even if you can put those number shots on them. besides, that's what marines have bolters for.
I go for volume of fire, in my SM army, I normally add in a few ass.cannons and some heavy bolters. The unit special weapons are always going to be flamer/plasma/melta anyway so it already gives a good mix.
But volume of fire seems to work better for me, but I face a lot of horde armies. So it is partially the fact that I am seeing enemies that don't need the AP hit.
And I still bring a whirlwind/vindicator to the odd game to mix it up with large artillery blasts. ;-)
Drop Trooper
· 5 months ago
Well my IG army (all infantry) is crammed with the 'sexy' plasmas and meltas i got some heavy bolters and some MISSile launchers in there, but my Tau army is all Missile pods and burst cannons.
Yaleling
· 5 months ago
Of course the other joy of massed poor AP fire is that it largely devalues cover. Generally I couldn't care less if my target holes up in cover or uses a screening unit. Since (s)he was always going to get an armour save anyhow, who cares about cover? ;p
Kevin Brooke
· 5 months ago
I personnally like a mix of things. I use alot of RoF guns. Usually run 2 squads of 8 Noise Marines, give all but one Sonic Blasters (including champ) and one a Blast Master. Thats a grand total of 46 shots out of 2 units. But for the AP side, I usually run a squad of Plague Marines, 2 Meltas usually take any vehical in my way.
Anarchyfever
· 5 months ago
I have to totally agree with you on this, as a Tau player I see a lot of XV8 and suit lists, and these armies are just not performing like 4th edition. For me the humble firewarrior, SMS and markerlight is all I need. I only have 2 suits in my list, one for horde and one for elites.(1000pts)
It really pains me to see people only using 6 firewarrior squads, becuase their never going to learn how effective 12 man squads can be. Of course this again bites into the "my way of playing" arguement.
Militant.Jester
· 5 months ago
Generally I go for:
Strength AP then RoF
I play Tau so I can always make cover saves go away..I can't improve my AP or strength.
lord kroll
· 5 months ago
played a game yesterday against a Nidzilla list with my Plague marines.
He had 2 tyrants (1 winged) with 2 twin linked devourers & 2 elite carnifexs the same. Thats 12 shots each for the Tyrants at 18" S6 rerolling to hit on 3s & rerolling wounds & 8 shots each for the Fexs.
Needless to say I didn't have a chance, couldn't make the saves & my vehicles were toast as well.
RealGenius
· 5 months ago
I think you still need a moderate amount of low AP weaponry because sometimes you need to kill a unit in a turn and not over two turns. You might have twenty Firewarriors blazing away at some Nobz (or anything else with FNP really) sitting on an objective, but they just might not die from that first round of rapid fire shooting. Where if you had some AP2 in there you'd immediately remove one of their saves (FNP).
I think probably a third of your army's units need at least 2 low AP shots: for example: two squads of Dire Avengers, one squad of Dark Reapers.
DooDoo Head Brown
· 5 months ago
I'm playing the new IG. I had five infantry squads each with a missile launcher and grenade launcher. Two heavy support squads of three heavy bolters, one mortor squad. I do fun a squad of veterans with three melta-guns. I rely on using the two battle tanks and one basilisk pie plate to target units in the open that will not be able to get a cover save from those weapons. Simply put, CSM and Space Marines. WIth my infantry, it's all about causing as many wounds as possilbe to threat units. I try to think of what my opponent is trying to do and which squad he is relying on most if I have multiple targets and just shoot the crap out of it until they fail enough wounds. I've found low AP weapons in 5th are not really great since cover is everywhere. I take 4+ cover saves all the time, actually close combat is about the only time my troopers die without some cover saves, so I'd rather spray and pray than go for the one shot one kill.
SM
· 5 months ago
Whenever my brother would play my spacemarines, he could never kill my 5 terminators even though he would focus his whole army's shooting on that one unit. Then he started packing low ap weapons, and the terminators were dropping like flies.
BlackSly
· 5 months ago
I think that overall, RoF > low AP.
But you do want a bit of low AP firing ability, to remove Termies and other nasty units that feel tough enough to approach your front lines without caring for cover.
Basically, I generally feel that a mixed fire approach works best, having multiple different types of weapons, hopefully with solid range, allows you to pick the best one for each target. Overall, you want more RoF weapons because there will be many times when your opponent is mostly or totally in cover, but you don't want to be caught with no low AP weapons and have someone drop Deep Strike 2 squads of 2+ save units in your lap.
Balance is better than all low AP or all RoF, but in this case I think balance means about 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of RoF to low AP firepower. After all, there will always be targets, even Terminators, on which wounds will eventually hurt, but you don't always have targets out of cover with good armor saves, to make the low AP weapons bring their full value. So bring some low AP weapons, but bring more RoF weapons, to most fights.
Valourousheart
· 5 months ago
I prefer Rate of Fire over AP for the same reasons listed in the OP. But I have found a nice combo with my Ravenwing that gets me the best of both worlds.
I use a MM/AC combo on my landspeeders, usually taking 3. This gives me a decent RoF in comparison to a HB/AC or MM/HF vs infantry. It also gives me a better tank hunter than either of the above speeders.
One or two of those speeders also have a good chance at wiping out or crippling a 5 man TDA squad without having to get with in PF range.
This combo is also great against Land Raiders. I have lost track of how many times have rolled up and whiffed with my Mulit-Misses, only to explode the LR with a rending hit from the AC.
BiG_Weasel
· 5 months ago
As a Tyranid player, my AP generally sucks anyway. Best AP I can pull off my weapons is 5, and that ain't worth spit against the most popular armies. What I've been doing lately is running 3 warrior broods with devourers (20 shots), carnifexes with 2x TL devourers and spine banks (8 shots, with rerolls to both hit and wound; additional shootiness with the banks), and it's been working out really well thus far. AP is good if you don't have a lot of shooting, and can't dump out massed firepower and tip the law of averages in your favor.
Zealot
· 5 months ago
Calling these deep thoughts is actually funny.
mypantsareonfire
· 5 months ago
I really think it depends on who your fighting. For example you don't spam low ap weapons on say an ork or tyranid army. But I find that you should pick one end of the spectrum and stick with it, for example, terminator/any really well armoured units can be either blasted to bits in few shots by really big guns, or pumeled with a volley of slugs.
-Advantage of low ap high dmg= they can be employed against armour or infantry, you can never not have a target for one of these. -Advantage of high rate of fire= they tear up elite and hoards, elites will fail fancy armour tests eventualy, and hoards probably wont even get one. Also people who like invulnerable saves will find they wasted points against high rate of fire.
-Disadvantage of of low ap high dmg= lots of points. -Disadvantage of high rate of fire= medium troopes have the numbers to shrug of some casualty and their armour saves can keep them going. Bad against medium and heavy tanks.
mordiano
· 5 months ago
Ok, so this is what I get from this:
You can devide targets into (at least)
I.Heavy infantry AV2+/AV3+ II. Light infantry Bad AV III. Vehicles
And weapons into (at least)
A. AP B. Rate of fire
Both weapon types are (incredibly enough) relativley good against II. (Heavy infantry), A Because they ignore their armour saves and B. Because they inflict many wounds to save.
The problem is which other target options you have:
A. can also target II (light inf) wheras B can also target III (vehicles)
PS. Bonus wisdom, stay away from heavy infantry as this will limit your oponents target choices as AP cannot switch to light inf and RoF cannot switch to vehicles.
skelator
· 5 months ago
as a tau player i take a mix of units,
most of our low ap weapons are good/adequate tank busters so even if im fighting a horde of orks or gaurd i can dish the pain on their tanks while pinning em in place with carbins and Rrifles
i dont see much use in seeker missiles as their a one shot weapon that never seems to do much against heavier vhecles like the ones you tend to see (leman russes and predators we're lookin at you) so that tends to make skyrays obselete cos once youve used their six shots doin not much your left with a points sink
All Comments
generally speaking I agree, although I do like to keep two squads with low ap weapons, just in case there are some terminators or IC/MC that needs to die, now.
Looking at other armies, I would say I generally agree. Oddly enough, Orks seem to lack high volume fire weapons with middling strength - Big Shootas (Dakkaguns as well, I suppose) and Deffguns are about it, only one of those is as reliable for anti light vehicle as it is for anti infantry.
The biggest difference, I think, it that the low AP shots also tend to be one shot, hit or miss. And those spectacular misses burn themselves into us and leave scars, constant reminders of how we shouldn't put all our hopes on that multi-melta, or how we should always call it a rocket launcher and not a MISSile launcher.
The autocannon or heavy bolter fails us just as much, but we get hits, we get wounds, so we feel at least a partial success, even if all saves are made. The job was almost done, and we get the feeling that next time, if there is a next time, that gun will do the job.
Average strength weapons also don't get shot at those big targets... I'll fire a multi-melta at a land raider from over 12" because at least it has a chance when hardly anything else does. But an autocannon at a Soul Grinder? There's most likely a better option.
Overall, I find that autocannons and heavy bolters (and just about any ork weapon!) are the reliable, feel good weapons that can get you by. But the big, spectacular wins? Those are won on the shoulders of big moments, and those are often times brought to you by the big weapons like Lascannons.
Space Marines got lucky in that they have a way to better the odds when going with the low RoF/low ap option.
I feel this is reasonable, yet gives my Sallies the "feel" of having nicer weapons than usual...reasonable or not?
I personally don't like running special characters, except for maybe the occasional apocalypse match. With how GW is currently designing codexes, this probably hurts me a bit as they seem to be forcing their special characters down our throats if we want to win, but so be it. I'm having fun. And maybe my multimeltas always miss. I'm sure even with Vulkan I'd still miss. Always.
That's why I prefer plasma against MC/TMCs, because you still have all of that strength and low ap, but with the added bonus of larger RoF.
Sometimes you do need to make that 2+ Carnifex go away though. Plasma Spam is not *totally* replaced by volume.
The technical term is "variance".
Granted, the more dice you roll, the more likely it is that you will do damage, but it does not affect the probability of each individual weapon doing damage.
Because the average score increases with the number of dice, but the standard deviation only increases as the square-root of the number of dice, the percentage variation becomes less the more dice you roll -- hence the claim that it is "more reliable".
AC/HB Predators for example; 85 points for 8 shots and you can get 3. Where else do you get that kind of volume for so low a cost? It's expendable and moderately survivable (but significantly less than av14). If you make it an Annihilator, it just became a bigger threat to your enemy - meaning higher target priority - and a much bigger points sink for you that a properly built 5th edition list can handle easily.
Another good example; a model's BS. The lower it is, the more shots you want and this is almost always the case. The higher it is, the more free you are to start picking low RoF weaponry. The difference here is that high BS does both low and high RoF well.
Long story short; we as players have a lot less 'choice' than we think we do when it comes to building an army. Lots of slots and units simply lack the option to choose worthwhile rate of fire over low ap or vice versa. Some armies just don't have the option of high RoF over low AP (Hello, bugs). Well, I suppose you still have all the choice you want inside of the rules, the question is how much choice do you have if you want to remain effective and/or competitive. Answer; not much.
Other types of heavy weapons I would prefer to save for dedicated heavy weapons squads such as Havocs. Taking four lascannons in a single squad (while very expensive) reduces the risk of hit-or-miss, and ensure they will do something to whatever they are shooting at. Autocannons are too middle-ground for my liking (average rate-of-fire, average strength and AP), so again, I would save them for heavy weapon squads so I can use them en masse against light vehicles or heavy infantry.
I find that Eldar are kind of the masters of volume fire. Between Bladestorm Dire Avengers, the fact that our heavy weapons are minimum S6, and Guide to re roll hits, there are S6 shots causing wounds like crazy from my Eldar army. This is kind of what we have to do, as there aren't really that many low AP guns around, and where they are the cost way to many points.
Still, it's hard to justify complaints about Guard these days...
If you look at the statistics; let's take Imperial guard versus space Marines.
If you have 100 guardsmen with less guns firing with first rank order. That's 300 shots. Only half what will hit out of that 150 only 33% will wound. Out of that 50 most will save leaving 33 dead Marines. That may be enough to win the game.
math a 2am what can i say
The flamer, to me, comes second in special weapons. This is an aggressors weapon rather than a control weapon like the meltagun. Flamers cause kills with reliability and can therefore be used in a confident manner.
For heavy weapons, many more options are available. Long range AT is a necessity: without it, you have no way to stop some models in the game, like Fire Prisms, and these will spend the entire game slaughtering your army.
After rudimentary long range AT is considered, I like to take at least one blast weapon if I'm building an army that can take them. Blast weapons are great when opponents have clumped up models and are the most efficient weapons in this case. In some situations, an opponent can't help but clump up, and having this opportunity weapon really capitalizes on that. If an opponent never clumps up, it's because you took the blast weapon, and his army is spread out and more vulnerable because of it. This makes the blast weapon win/win. Just don't count on them for long range kills.
I do think that after you are reasonably confident in your long range AT, high rate of fire weapons are probably better buys than more long range AT, particularly transport killing weapons like Autocannons and Scatter Lasers if your AT isn't very strong. If your AT is strong, high rate of fire anti-infantry weapons at long range add reliability to your force and make it so that anything shot out or has gotten out of their transport has something to fear.
Overall, I believe there are necessary AP weapons, but high rate of fire weapons are more effective after you've got the necessary weapons.
If I have a choice, the multi-shot or template weapons are almost always my default choice.
I run a big brood of warriors with deathspitters and a barbed strangler. While they are fragile (being warriors) my gaming buddies fear them: not for the average damage they do but the remember the horror shooting phases. In one phase that brood shot at some guardsmen and the only damage was one wound on my hive tyrant (bad scatter and failed my 2+ save...), but everyone remembers the game where they shot 20 fabius bile enhanced super marines and clocked up 37 wounds. There was not much of the squad left after that.
With tyranids being a very 'psychological' army I like the fear of my potential damage over the real average effectiveness. ;)
The high rate of fire of Horrors is quite lethal, I field them in squads of 15, 45 shots per turn on a target of my choice is going to mess people up, even MEQ who generally don't have the numbers on their side. (Average 3-4 dead marines per turn)
Other than that I have to agree with the templates comment, Template (either Blast, Large Blast or Flamer) weapons are great in 5th edition, they allow you to inflict many wounds, while often having a low enough AP value to really ruin a Space Marine's day.
The Phlegm upgrade for the Soulgrinder and the Breadth of Chaos attack of Flamers of Tzeentch both are great examples of this. Highly lethal template weapons that can still inflict a lot of wounds on a squad.
My opponents quite often underestimate the Flamers, but a unit that spews 6 flamer templates that always wounds on a 4+ and ignore both Cover and Armour saves is going to ruin the day of whatever gets in their sights.
But I think I'll be running the Ion Heads more, as they put out a retarted amount of shots when they have Burst Cannons equipped- 3 str7 ap3 shots from the turret, and 6 str5 ap5 shots from the 'sponsons'- those burst cannons fire seperately, which is nice for more shooty-ness. 9 shots per tank, x2 tanks is a lotta bullets flying around, and those boys wipe out Guardsmen by the bushel. (gotta run broadsides in the last elite slot to have railgun coverage. A stealth markerteam to guide them is nice, too)
In 5th it does pay to go for output, as everyone and his brother can claim a cover save now, so drowning them in shots will eventually lead to failed saves....in theory.
In practice, it's all a crapshoot, ain't it?
They are 90 pts, in which you could almost get a whole new hammerhead w/ an ion cannon.
However, at this point with Tau needing an update all most as much as necrons, I avoid tanks all together
More points for crisis
In all honesty I'm looking foward to running the Ionheads- had good results when I used to run one, so the pair should be very menacing running around together >:)
maybe i'm fighting very differant armies, but i've found the railgun hammerhead to be very cost effective. our local guard players hate my hammerheads, since it's cheaper than a russ, and far more effective.
Crisis plasma rifles are for those pesky MEQs.
Love it. Great Against a lot. But i too like heavy bolter and am considering using them in my tactical squads instead of a rocket launcher
My Dark Angels are armed with Plasma weapons, and bolters. so i have a good mix of lots of shots and "ignores Armor" weapons. I also have built my own Razorback Tower with a Plasmacannon on it. Nice explosive.
My Cybot too has a Plasmacannon (scratchbuild out of the storm cannon, and a devastor marine). So everything that comes closer to my brave Angels, has a lot of let's say "a lots of things to think about" :-)
this weapon loadout would work very well, if i just would roll the dice better... I'm a bit unlucky when it comes to hit and wound rolls. ;-)
Then in my heavy weapon squads I'll have a couple mortar squads (so cheap who can refuse them if you draw a horde army) along with 3 anti tank - either 2 lascannon 1 missile or 2 missile one lascannon. the missiles have the advantage of being able to use frag if there aren't any big things left to kill, whereas if I'm likely to be facing land raiders it helps not to put all my lascannons in one basket.
Alternatively, if I run a more mechanised force, well my last army had a hydra, battle cannon and two hellhounds for putting out lots of wounds. I also had a vanquisher for the anti tank, plus a couple veteran squads with meltaguns and meltabombs for AT duties. pack the veterans in chimeras and my command section in a valkyrie for more high fire rates, with a couple of penal legion squads for claiming objectives.
Or to put it in simple terms: everything counts in large amounts.
(Another) James
Having said that I still believe in playing to your own strengths. Nids dont have low AP, but they can pump out more wounds then just about anyone. Space wolves are a little weird. They cant have high RoF but do throw massed attacks at targets- I have lots of AP2 blasts and guns supporting enough blood claws to make anyone whimper... still relying on CC equivalent RoF while having powerfists to help deal with anyone truly nasty.
To sum up, I'll go for high rate of fire over low AP in general, but I'd take melta or lascannons (if i had such weapons) vs. obliterators and vehicles. Oh, and if you can have rerolls anywhwere, take them. Opponets tend to cackle maniacally when you roll bad on an important roll - this happens much less often if you take rerolls - whether it is Vulcan, Warp Time, Twin-linked, Living Ammunition, Guide etc., go for it!
The two big factors:
1) GW has handed out too many Invuln saves and/or given too good of invuln saves. For example Termies with shields, 3+ invuln saves? Or some demons also share 3+ invun.
2) The increased amount of cover saves.
Problem #1 could be fixed by adding weapons that ignore invlun saves -- but that imo is a really bad idea. It's total AP creap which is bad. So really imo GW has screwed themselves here and we're going to have to live with high invuln saves for a long long while.
Problme #2 could be fixed by expanding the cover rules. I really think cover should be split up into Hard/Soft categories. Hard Cover acts just as cover does today. Soft Cover is defeated by low AP weapons (just as armor is).
I don't think this would over complicated the game and help make lower AP weapons (which already cost more and tend to have fewer shots) see greater benefit for being used.
That said having a complete lack of low AP weapons means terrain/cover does not even need to be used. For that reason having some lower AP weapons can keep your opponnet honest and force them to actually use terrain to there advantage.
namely meltars, warp blasts and lascannons.
Though if I am given the choice I always take the option of more shots, simply because I don't trust myself to hit when rolling 1 or 2 dice. That's partly why I was attracted to orks and IG because the way I roll 3+ marine armour I might as well be failing the 5s and 6s.
Particularly the usefullness of plasmacannons/guns. Thats a valid debate.
But we should also consider that low AP weapons are also (normaly) high strength (they used to be directly related). You wont bag any vehicle by 300 lasgun shots, terminators yes, but vehicles no.
So you need some high strength weapons for vehicles aswell, and they are aswell, as a side effect, low AP (lascannons etc).
Another point is that plasmaguns dont directly have competition in their slot for high volume weapons. They are special the others are heavy.
For my own guard army I have meltaguns and -rocket- launchers. The rockets to help with the under 24 inch shooting of my guardsmen (frag) and by taking diagonal shots (when opportunity arrise) at vehicle side armour (krak) as the squads are on both flanks. Then meltaguns because, well, they are meltaguns :)
Against infantry, more shots from further away on fast movers is my preference. Re-rolls on top of this make things scary, look at a bike marine list or guided eldar.
Then again D.Eldar get to cheaply spam S8 shots and plasma cannons. Often one needs to look at what the cheapest way to equip something and that ends up being the way to do said item. Predators are an example given above with AC/HB.
There is a hierarchy to weaponry, assuming the same S... 1 shot = ok trin-linked = better, 2+ shots best. Think back to when immolators dropped two flame templates instead of re-rolling wounds, that's a whole nother type of nasty.
Other things to consider is mobility, do you have the luxury of avoiding your opponent for most of the game? Range, can you sit back and kill things as the approach? There is no blanket this is best in this situation. Though cover definitely hurt medium-low AP. AP1 is still great on vehicles upping your kill chance to 50% or greater is amazing when lots of mech shows up.
Each meta game is gonna be different. For example, I have seen lots of guard infantry, but the mech is just starting to trickle in in my area.
What I wnted to say is that AP and S is usually correlated: If you have low AP weapons they usually aswell have high strength and become vehicle killers rather than anti-infantry.
AP1 on the other hand has effects on vehicles aswell, thats true.
Masses of relentless twin linked bolt guns are a good rule of thumb for me.
I struggle, though, against medium-heavy vehicles who are out of melta range, and against 2+ armour. Taking AP 2 weaponry is necessary against Terminators and Meganobs, both of which are fairly common in the local tourney scene (and I think fairly strong in the metagame). If I could get S6 weapons like Eldar though, it would be great as AV10-11 walkers, skimmers, and transports are being spammed. Hell I'm even looking at Chaos dreadnoughts as a viable platform for autocannons.
Hence the need for LOTS of shots no matter the AP. This way the opponent has to make more saves.
Mathhammer rules!
With Eldar its not just having more shots, but you're able to bring the firepower where it counts. So almost everything fires at a small part of the battlefield.
My Firedragons sit on the bench most of the time. Though i do use a D-cannon most of the time. (Together with a firebase of Wraithguard, a shooty Wraithlord and a unit of Dire Avengers.)
A high shot output, a moderate AP, a moderate strength, and the ability to rend?
The Assault cannon combines the ability to tear through infantry, and tanks. It is the all around best weapon, imho.
More than RoF, I prefer blast and template weapons. One guy in a ten-man squad with a flamer gets 5-7 hits alone and increases the odds of my opponent failing some saves. Unless he's not playing a MEQ army, in which case AP5 is often good enough.
Anything below AP4 is cool, but unless its an anti-tank weapon, I'm not going out of my way to get one. I really prefer meltaguns over plasma, because I charge, and I can occasionally bag a tank with it.
I find that some RoF weapons, like Autocannons and heavy bolters, are good in purpose-built squads, just like Lascannons, but for a tectically flexable troop squad, nothing works better then a Rocket Launcher. The abiity to fire a S8 shot at monsters and tanks, or the ability to lob a blast template at hoards is well worth it's points. in an 'all comers' list, I never want to tie myself down to one tactical layout.
If I'm playing marines, or an army which has a decent armour save I'll back that up with Plasma. It's Rapid fire, which means it functions range and RoF like the other weapons in the unit, keeping it consistant, but it higher St and low AP makes it all around best of it's options.
In a guard army (my beloved guard) I tent to swap between Sniper rifles and Grenade lainchers. Sniper rifles are my prefered weapon, simply because of range. I can toss off powerful shots (always wounding on 4+) against anything at range. More range means more shots before they reach me. The possibility if pinning and rending also add to it's attractivness. It means the unit now has 2 weapons that are heavy, but for most guard squads, sitting back and shooting is what they're intended to do.
Why?
Big load of shots make it possible to kill hard armoured foes like the Space Marines and terminators, but it also gives me possibility to kill mass armies, like Orks and Tyranids.
But I also have Predator with lascannan and heavy bolters.
Lascannon usually misses (even though it's twin-linked) and the heavy bolters are the thing that destroy that rhino (3 immobilised at the same time, YAYYY!).
As for Tactical Squads, I usually take Lascannon, Plasmacannon and Missile Launcher, for the tanks can also be big and scary.
Still, with Imperial Guard, big strenght and low ap weapons are my choise, for not only they give me possibility to kill tanks, there are so many of them that they can scare even masses (and missiles have frag missiles, not forgetting the lasguns..).
After that, the second most lethal thing was a squad armed with multiple flamers... Especially lethal against necrons, believe it or not. Necron players always like to line their squads up behind monoliths, or when they gate through them. A single flamer template will cover an entire squad, if they're all lined 2 x 5 in a row. I've wiped out entire squads of necrons with flamer templates.
Lascannons... meh. The dice gods hate me. If I have a squad with 4 lascannons, they will miss...
I am also starting a DE Kabal, and with that army, I would say that you would have to go for the low AP. Getting DLs for 10 pts with BS 4 is much better for the warriors than splinter cannons, and it would be great for destroying MCs/ICs as well as heavy armor and has 12" better range. I suppose low volume low AP can be pretty demoralizing as well if you have a hard time hitting when you really need it, but as a Necron player, I wouldn't know.
The down side to the multiple shot weapons is usually there low strength and AP. All too often I have seen fist fulls of dice rolled to hit and wound only to be whittled down to only a few armor saves which are inevitably shrugged off.
But I have also seen a Solo Lascannon shot bring down a Monolith on a turn 1 salvo!
And lets not forget "If you dont take it you cant fail it"
In the end I think it comes down to player prefference but if you focus the multi shots on the troops and the low AP high S on vehicles things will work out.
And lets not forget "If you dont take it you cant fail it"
Even worse, if you stock up on low AP low RoF weapons and run up against a horde army you simply don't have enough shots to deal with them. The high RoF weapons scale perfectly, since you were already dishing out the damage via lots of wounds. Only the low AP blast weapons are worth considering (except for AT of course).
RoF dominate scenario: Sternguard rapid firing hellfire rounds into MC's. bye bye greater daemon.
But volume of fire seems to work better for me, but I face a lot of horde armies. So it is partially the fact that I am seeing enemies that don't need the AP hit.
And I still bring a whirlwind/vindicator to the odd game to mix it up with large artillery blasts. ;-)
It really pains me to see people only using 6 firewarrior squads, becuase their never going to learn how effective 12 man squads can be. Of course this again bites into the "my way of playing" arguement.
Strength
AP
then RoF
I play Tau so I can always make cover saves go away..I can't improve my AP or strength.
He had 2 tyrants (1 winged) with 2 twin linked devourers & 2 elite carnifexs the same.
Thats 12 shots each for the Tyrants at 18" S6 rerolling to hit on 3s & rerolling wounds & 8 shots each for the Fexs.
Needless to say I didn't have a chance, couldn't make the saves & my vehicles were toast as well.
I think probably a third of your army's units need at least 2 low AP shots: for example: two squads of Dire Avengers, one squad of Dark Reapers.
But you do want a bit of low AP firing ability, to remove Termies and other nasty units that feel tough enough to approach your front lines without caring for cover.
Basically, I generally feel that a mixed fire approach works best, having multiple different types of weapons, hopefully with solid range, allows you to pick the best one for each target. Overall, you want more RoF weapons because there will be many times when your opponent is mostly or totally in cover, but you don't want to be caught with no low AP weapons and have someone drop Deep Strike 2 squads of 2+ save units in your lap.
Balance is better than all low AP or all RoF, but in this case I think balance means about 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of RoF to low AP firepower. After all, there will always be targets, even Terminators, on which wounds will eventually hurt, but you don't always have targets out of cover with good armor saves, to make the low AP weapons bring their full value. So bring some low AP weapons, but bring more RoF weapons, to most fights.
But I have found a nice combo with my Ravenwing that gets me the best of both worlds.
I use a MM/AC combo on my landspeeders, usually taking 3.
This gives me a decent RoF in comparison to a HB/AC or MM/HF vs infantry.
It also gives me a better tank hunter than either of the above speeders.
One or two of those speeders also have a good chance at wiping out or crippling a 5 man TDA squad without having to get with in PF range.
This combo is also great against Land Raiders.
I have lost track of how many times have rolled up and whiffed with my Mulit-Misses, only to explode the LR with a rending hit from the AC.
-Advantage of low ap high dmg= they can be employed against armour or infantry, you can never not have a target for one of these.
-Advantage of high rate of fire= they tear up elite and hoards, elites will fail fancy armour tests eventualy, and hoards probably wont even get one. Also people who like invulnerable saves will find they wasted points against high rate of fire.
-Disadvantage of of low ap high dmg= lots of points.
-Disadvantage of high rate of fire= medium troopes have the numbers to shrug of some casualty and their armour saves can keep them going. Bad against medium and heavy tanks.
You can devide targets into (at least)
I.Heavy infantry AV2+/AV3+
II. Light infantry Bad AV
III. Vehicles
And weapons into (at least)
A. AP
B. Rate of fire
Both weapon types are (incredibly enough) relativley good against II. (Heavy infantry), A Because they ignore their armour saves and B. Because they inflict many wounds to save.
The problem is which other target options you have:
A. can also target II (light inf) wheras B can also target III (vehicles)
PS. Bonus wisdom, stay away from heavy infantry as this will limit your oponents target choices as AP cannot switch to light inf and RoF cannot switch to vehicles.
most of our low ap weapons are good/adequate tank busters so even if im fighting a horde of orks or gaurd i can dish the pain on their tanks while pinning em in place with carbins and Rrifles
i dont see much use in seeker missiles as their a one shot weapon that never seems to do much against heavier vhecles like the ones you tend to see (leman russes and predators we're lookin at you)
so that tends to make skyrays obselete cos once youve used their six shots doin not much your left with a points sink