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Eldar Vs. Imperial guard with warrior weapons
Eldar Vs Orks
Eldar vs nids
I believe the internets have a word for that.
Despite the raise in cost, you'll be amazed the firepower they can pump out.
Avatar = best unit in game... WS10, 4 wounds and 4+invul for 155points.
Warwalkers = amazing
firedragons on mass = amazing
guardian jetbikes = awesome
the only thing eldar lack is long-range anti-tank
Avatar, hard...yes...but getting him into that place where he can be of use is harder than it looks and with only a 4+ save it'll not take long for him to be taken down...another unit in the game with high toughness and 4 wounds is the Chaos Deamon prince, except he's got a 3+ armour and "Options"
Warwalkers...suck...BS3 so hitting only half the time and being only able to move 6" a turn they're about as manouverable as a tanker. Sure they're only 35 points each but by the time you've loaded them out with any decent weaponary, you're talking cost to the extreme...especialy if you're taking them in any number that'll cause damage. The Scout giving them out-flank isn't a huge advantage because it only puts them closer to those numerous Str 4 weapons that'll make a mess of their armour 10 and rip both their weapons from them....Add to that the fact an immobilised result transfers to a wrecked result if they're in units and you've not got a lot there......nah..Warwalkers are no better than Sentinels for the Guard
Fire-dragons...1 hit wonders...where's the anti troop? I hear you saying "Dragons breath" but that's 1 heavy flamer and you've gotta get it in close. You're talking about a unit with T3 and an armour of 4+. Say hello to those heavy bolters once you've had your one glorious strike...oh yeah...and don't forget the nice cover save that almost everyone should be having when they see you with dragons. They're a nice unit for a quick strike of maybe 6 in a Falcon or Serpent but after that, you'll be lucky to have any left if any decent player has any say on it...oh yeah...and they're 16 points each!
Jetbikes....Marines with a worse BS, WS, Ld and a move of 12" all for 22 points each! I'd hardly say awesome. They're good, granted and with the right combination of a Warlock, singing spear, destructor and maybe some luck you've got a hardy troops unit that can take on any other comers...but for the cost you're looking at 76 points for 3 (with the cannon) then a further 45 to 58 points for a warlock....and even then you're only Ld 8 that means if you take 1 casualty you're about 50/50 from fleeing the battlefield. Put Assault marines or any decent firepower against them and they're stuck without good support.....and I'd know, I play a jetbike/vyper/wave serpent army so I know it's weaknesses and strengths.....Jetbikes are best in small numbers to fill troops choices and take objectives....and MAYBE cause a little damage if used at the right time.
As for long-range anti-tank....where do you live??? The fire prism is one of the best anti-tank in the game...Str 9 with a 60" range...add another and you've got Str 10 TWIN LINKED!!! Or how about a wave serpent with twin bright lances...Armour 14...nope, it's 12 now and I'm glancing on 4+ with a re-roll to hit. Moving on you've then got those warwalkers or even Vypers (my favourite) kitted with Missile launchers.
You're obviously not an Eldar player who bothers to look into the depth of the army because if you were you'd have spotted all these flaws for yourself and certainly not embarrased yourself by saying they have no long rang anti-tank when they have almost the best unit in the game for that very job!!
Eldar is a sneaky army and powerfull as hell, but if it's used like another imperial/marine/ork army, is a glass-cannon.
Sorry for spell mistakes.
Firedragons : 10 AP 1 shots at a MEQ unit will again pretty much eliminate them as a viable unit. Wave serpent them to an isolated unit, eliminate them, and repeat.
Jetbikes : squads of 6, snipe with the cannons, then zoom in close and use them to soften up units before the Seer Council or other assault units (Shining Spears, Banshees etc) go in for the kill.
Putting the warlocks into a Council along with a Fortune casting Farseer, rather than dividing them between small units creates a unit that's almost embarrassingly powerful to put on the field - 4 heavy flamer templates from 1unit ? With re-rollable 3+ / 4 + armour / invulnerable saves ? 13 attacks on minimum BS5 that wound on 2's ?
You've clearly got a different take on how to play your bike / vyper / WS army from my bike / vyper / walker list. I'm new to it, but I'm finding the synergy between the units you just listed as poor as being utterly lethal to Ork hordes and Space Marines alike. The combination's are definitely more than the sum of the parts.
Ok you are right about the anti tank prisms of wonder but you didn't need to be a dick about it! Grow up and chill please!
177points = 9 BS4 meltaguns and an assault heavy flamer that rerolls to wound..... super cheap!
3 Warwalkers with dual shruiken is just 120points!!! An amazing firemagnet, think how many missiles this will attract. Whilst alive it averages 9 strength 6 hits a turn...... for 120points!!!
3 jetbikes zooming around for 70ish points with an invulnerable save and taking an objective at the end of the game....awesome!
oh yeah then you've got the 10direavengers and 5 scorps with claw, home objective babysitters for 200ish points
I don't know why people buy farseer's though.... waste of points really unless guide seer for 75points, but even then, i'm sceptical.
Eldrad is a beast though..... but at a cost to your full army
As for the Topic of this, What about the Craftworld parts of the codex going down? Well it seems that leaning into too much of one craftworlds "aspects" can kinda hurt them. Doing all rangers/pathfinders is cool and very craftworld but its not going to really stop some of the new codex armies. Really with all the new fancy things and horde armies out there, its best to bring out the cheese with regular eldar rather than craftworld.
Doesn't take a lot to take Eldrad down if you know what to do....take down his guard with lots of fire power then smack him with a few high strength weapons. Or just slam a unit of Beserkers into him (and his unit) with a powerfist on the squad leader. Or better yet...a squad of 30 orks with a nob and power claw....
Good, yes...but not Uber hard if you know how to deal with him.
Yeah, LOTS of firepower.
That Fortune makes a huge difference, basically lowering his council's save to 2+ invulnerable (4+, times two). The only way to counter this is with Null Zone SM Librarian Power, and that has a 55% chance of nuking the librarian with a Perils test. It takes way (!) too much to take down the Council - never mind the Avatar or any of the other silliness.
Your best shot of those mentioned is the 30 ork mob (or something similar), but even then, that assumes a lot of things going right for you (going first, not getting wasted by shooting, etc.). For their points, they have wayyyy too much staying power.
But then...I don't let them get close and considering it's a 500 point unit minimum it's a good chunk of army that I can hit with some serious fire power.
I just don't get what the fuss is about....
Eldrad- best HQ in 40k - points/power
Avatar is just awesome
Trio Warwalkers with 2 scatter laser each in cover with fortune=nice fair play...
Falcons are still most annoying tanks in game (not counting monolith). Imagine flying falcon on flat out speed with fortune...shoot that one..
Dire Avangers are just great with that many shots they can lay down. And are damm pretty also :)
3 Warwalkers with 2 scatter laser each...nice for firepower but you have to have at least 2 of them 50% covered to get your cover save, which means you're probably covering some of your weapons and preventing shots getting off. Don't forget vehicle (and monstrous creature) cover saves work differently to foot sloggers.
Falcon at flat out is more risky than it used to be....before you could only score a glancing hit if it moved 12" and it could still fire back at you...now you get a 4+ save against any shots but can suffer penetrating hits and an imobilised result is still a wreck....hence why I'd favour the serpent to reduce the str of attacks and get rid of those extra dice for armour pen.
...ok, rolling to cast lash, annnnd...look another Perils test. Failed.
[snip] or Ork Biker Warboss > Eldrad [/snip]
*Eldrad casts Mind War as his 2nd spell this turn*...."Oi! He thinked our Warboss to death!"
Eldrad is Discustingly good.
Always bet on green
plus the lash prince is just a parlor trick, and against the eldar you will never get it off.
And as asdf said...he still gets invun/feel no pain/cover saves.
Perhaps unexpectedly, this fits wonderfully with the Eldar fluff. It's pure Eldar nonsense (IG, CSM, or DH for me please). Still, the tactical options his strategy opens that are perfectly in accordance with how a desperate, dying race might behave.
Regardless of what I think about the Eldar, the guy's got some undeniably compelling ideas. Certainly, he's made me rethink the game a bit.
Keep in mind neither of us are tournament style players, we just look to have a good time. Yes, we compete, but not to the point the fun of the game is lost (i.e. he never ran 3 falcons in 4th, I don't run nob bikers, etc...). But as far as Eldar fighting hordes, I think it just takes a different style list than what people used to/are maybe still running competitively. As was mentioned before, War Walkers are great, and with the right load out can deal with hordes fairly well. IG (for now) don't seem to compete very well against anyone. Orks can cause some problems, but if an Eldar player knows that's who he's facing it shouldn't be a problem. I can't speak towards Nids, however, as I don't know anyone who runs them well.
I would say, for the most part, it's a viable codex still. The new IG should definitely give them a run though. Mixing many guardsmen with solid long range anti-tank capabilities will be tough for the fragile Eldar to deal with, especially with all that ordinance.
That list contains a lot of number thinning weapons yet can still deal with high toughness and armor if need be. With weapon options like the ones above I think eldar can do pretty well.
You've only got glancing with anything except the wraithlord and he's got the possibility of shutting down. The prism by itself is too easy to drop from the sky now as well....adding to the fact it can scatter and miss.
But your point is well made and I see what you're saying with it. The Eldar can come up with a nice army for 1500 with all manner of weapons....but in comparison to purist armies like Ork hordes or mechanised Tau, it starts to suffer without those specialies lists designed to take on that type of army....Ork hordes and mechanised Tau can still take all comers where the Eldar are starting to loose out in that respect.
I never take less than 2 prisms and even then you can't rely on them as your only anti tank. The weapons can be taken off them a lot easier now than in the past since you can now score penetrating hits on them.
The serpent with twin bright lance is certainly a better option to the prism for anti AV14 in my view.
Prince Yriel 155points
9 Fire Dragons, Exarch w/dragon's breath flamer, WS w/star engines
10 Striking Scorpions
10 Striking Scorpions
20 guardians
20 guardians
3 Swordlords w/SL
Their main problem is the low relative range of the shuriken catapult, though their relatively high BS somewhat compensates.
Eldar just seem like they've always been: you've got to pick the right units and deploy correctly to win. Any errors in either of those key areas, and you're frakked before you've begun.
30 dragons @ 16 each = 480
3 x exarch = 36
crack shot = 30 (I think).
Add to that 2 farseers @ 55 points each with 2 guides, 1 spirit stones and the doom and they come to 205.
Giving a grand total of 685 points.
Not to forget that crackshot ONLY works for the Exarchs shots, not the whole unit. You can only guide 2 units, giving an average in hits of 24-25 hits. Lets say 25 at generous of which 2 are exarchs. With 2's to wound you're looking at 20-21 wounds. Lets say 21 being generous again with 2 being the exarchs. I'll take an invunerable on my warboss (T5 so he can take it)...hell, I'll take 2 infact from both exarch shots and save 1 of them. Leaving 19 cover saves of 3+. That comes to a total of 6-7 kills (closer to Nick's prediction)....not 11 as you believe.
And that's with the averages saying you get to shoot them first! Lets not forget they're faster than the Dragons and can get the charge in on them before they get a shot off. Unless of course you kit them out with serpents at a minimum cost of 110 per squad...taking your total points to 1015.
I think you're maths is a bit off and the optimism a bit high there.
Not only that but you've just committed your bulk of points to a unit that will get slaughtered in hand to hand combat. Don't forget that behind those nobz you'll have a mass of at least 60 orks bearing down on you each with 4 attacks on the charge that'll wound on 3+.
531 points for 30 Fire Dragons with 3 Exarchs with Crack shot.
BTW, Crack shot is 5 points each.
Now for my seers. One of them is 55 points plus 20 for guide.
75 Points
Then I'll add Eldrad for 215 for a total of 290 points of seer fun.
Add in three Wave Serpents for 100 each (with TL Shuricannon) for a grand total of 1121 points. Leaving me with some Guardian squads for objectives and Three Fire Prisms to all but annihilate your silly "mob" with Delicious Prism Pie.
Keep in mind, most of those biker nobz squads are something like 800-900 points or more...
So now, I have 27 Fire Dragons, all guided. Plus three BS 5 Exarchs, with crack shot. Firing at a Doomed squad of Nob Bikers and their Hapless Warboss. This means that initially, on average, the Aspect Warriors land 24 hits. Then the Exarchs fire, and land 3 hits. (need 2s and re-roll? You're gonna land them all most of the time) 26.333 will wound. Now, on average, you're gonna cover save away about 15 of those. That still means that 8 get through on top of the 3 you cannot save against. Keep in mind, this is if you have turbo boosted. If you did not turbo boost, then you're just dead. You fail 11.5 saves and suffer 3 unsaveable wounds as well. Statistically, that cleans you out.
So back to turboboosting, you've lost two wounds on the warboss for taking the crack shots, you've lost 8 of the regular bikers. Leaving you with two biker nobz and a warboss with one wound. We're ignoring the shots from the Transports and the Seers pistols. Also, you now have to pass morale check. You have a 5/6 chance of passing, so you should be good.
Ok. so now my Fire Prisms feed your remaining troops pie and my Guardians camp out on objectives and drink tea.
Finally, it's your turn and you shoot some dakka, maybe kill one guy. Now, you can assault me. You're able to hit no more than one unit of Fire Dragons because you have only three guys left. Furious Charge, finally, Dragons go first. 11 attacks all at your warboss, hit you on 4s, 5 get through, wound you on 6s. About two wounds (You're still doomed). You probably save 1. Warboss is down. This leaves your remaining Strength 9, 8 attacks total. You hit on 3s, land optimistically 6 hits. That kills 5 guys, leaving me with half my starting strength. I test morale at Ld 5, most likely fail and fall back. Initative 5 against 2, you'd need to roll a 4 to even catch me if I rolled a 1. So I escape falling back. At this point. Its over. It's my turn, I adjust slightly, 20 more guided melta shots, and a mind war on a doomed target. You're just gone, from the crack shots alone. I've destroyed about 900 points of Ork in two shooting phases with these Fire Dragons alone, meanwhile Prisms eat up the rest of your army. This is about turn 3-4 I've lost about 80 points of Fire Dragon. You've lost the game.
GG.
As your tactics resolve heavily around three Farseers, you need to recalculate your offensive...
Plus, that army gets mauled by horde orks and any number of other tournament lists...
The 1000 points that's been spend on those dragons just to take down the nobs is wasted. And 3 prisms without holofields is just asking to get ripped from the sky since you can't afford them with the holofields when you've spent 1000 odd points on 3 dragon squads in sepents. Not to mention you loose heavily in objective missions that rely on you taking more than your opponent.
Nope....Dragon heavy list just does not win when it can only kill a maximum of 30 troops a turn and an ork horde can take 90 odd orks for 1000 points and basicaly swamp the dragons after one round of shooting.
Fusion guns only have a 12" range and you've got to be on the ground to use them.
And Eldrad is 210 points btw.
Also, you are once again incorrect. The Warboss MUST move first as he is an IC when he charges and get in base contact with the closest model. Then the other two Nobz may move but MUST be in coherency with the warboss. So pretty much, my little knot of Dragons kicks the crap out of your boss.
Also, the other squad gets squished by the Fire Prism trio. Because I have fast skimmers and you just have bikes. You literally just have 20+ bikes. Not hard to outmaneuver you on any table.
Also, keep in mind. S7 ork shooting is laughable against armour 12. 5s to hits, 6s to pen. I'm so scared. And I really don't NEED objective grabbers if your model count is less than Grey Knights. I'll table you by turn with just sheer firepower.
...we aren't talking about Fire Dragons versus Hordes (Though, dragons breath flamers are nice...) we're talking about 30 Fire Dragons versus a Nob Biker squad.
And yes, Fusion Guns do have 12"
But as I demonstrated above, with Wave Serpents, that really doesn't matter. Wall o' Melta reduces Nobz to their constituent molecules.
Good catch on Eldrad. Thanks.
UK GT is 1500. And thanks for saying you were talking more about just taking down the bikes. The point I was making was that using that as a "standard" list makes them obsolete because you'll never just face Nobs on bikes. For the points, you'll face the Nobs, 40-50 orks in trucks and 10xD3 str 7 shots and you've spent 1121 points just taking out the Nobs.
Other thing I wanted to mention was that for the 1121 points, an ork player could take 2 small squads of nobs on bikes (6-8 in a squad) which'll force you to split fire etc.
Yeah. Those are all valid points. The OP was basically just presenting the scenario of 30 FDs versus a Maxed Nob Biker squad, so that's what I was working on.
I don't think I or any other Eldar player worth their Wraithsalt would really do something like that. A more balanced list generally works much better in any case.
For some reason, Eldar lists do well when you double up on a single selection. (2x 3 War walkers, 2x Warp Spiders, etc) Something about being more directed.
I suspect that as time goes on we'll find that that holds true once more in 5th Ed. My prediction for Eldar? Balanced is the new Cheese ;-)
A good Eldar player can beat just about anything...
The biggest shift I'm seeing is the ability to hold reserves in any mission. In general the Eldar are fast, and hard hitting, but most of thier squads are one-use, then they're dead. Getting that crushing punch in FIRST on your terms is the Eldar hallmark. Yet, I'm seeing lots of better players choosing to use 2-tiered deployment much more these days, with throwaway screens out in front to engage the Eldar early game, while the scary firepower and fast assault elements reserve in mid-game and hammer the expensive Eldar stuff that is high and dry. Thus the Craftworlders have a harder time because they lose the advantage of destroying critical enemy units before they can be used, and in any attritional battle, the Eldar lose.
It's the same issue that Daemons have. Reserve rolls are not always going to be in your favor and you can be waiting for backup till turn 5.
Eldar I think are better at playing that game if they have an Autarch due to the +1 to reserve rolls.
But this strikes me as hearsay, as there are sooo many types of Eldar lists not to mention other races that the variance is too great to make any generalization in my opinion.
Skimmers got a major downgrade from their lofty pinnacle in 5th Ed. HTH got a lot more brutal, but consolidation now leaves the Uber HTH unit unsupported in the middle of the enemy sometimes. What does this mean? Falcon stocks dropped, along with HTH aspects (scorps and banshees). Guardians and shooters got a raise from the boss. Wraithlords are still pocket Daemon Princes, and Eldar still run the psychic phase (which is fine, except they put too much of a smack down on the "supposed" masters of sorcery, Tzeentch).
Please don't tell me the Eldar need more power. They are doing just fine. Ask the IG players how they feel about the Eldar Codex.
I'll agree, though, that Tzeentch should be more powerful, and I like that it's more agressive than the Eldar powers. But with the new Librarians (even more powerful than before, but limited in range) it seems Tzeentch has taken even more of a back seat.
I have also never used an Eldar Special character, with the exception of one Phoenix Lord in a one of game.
So, all this talk of power levels going down must leave me somewhat confused. If anything, my 0% vericle Eldar lists have done better now in 5th than they used too.
Admittedly hoard armies are the biggest problem. (I'm looking at you IG!) However, if one bears the metagame in mind you can draw up some truely entertaining and compative lists with the mighty craftworld.
Also, yes Avatars rock. But why waste a HQ slot on one of them, when you could have a delicious tasty farseer?
But for a quick summary of the major strongpoints of the Eldar list as stands -
Wraithguard as troops. (Seriously, put these guys with a farseer, and let roll)
4 Man squads of Guardian Jetbikes. (+3 Turboboost save, held in reserve objective grabber for the win!)
Pathfinders. Outflanking, scouting, inflitrating, ignoring cover 2+ cover save termie killers. Also they score.
Farseers - Doom, and Fortune. Also occasionally guide if working with a battery of D-Cannons.
Wraithlords - Re-rolling to hit in combat with a dirt cheap 100 point model. At strength 10. 3 wounds at an incredible toughness 8, and you even get a decent save. Plus comes free with two flamers. Perfect for hoard armies.
Dark Reapers - Three's followed by three's. Then take those marines of the board. Also double shot and a pinning plasma template.
All these and more. Eldar are still a great army. Sure your awful retarded tri-falcon list has finally died, and you wasted a ridicious amount of money on all those grav tanks. And all the frustrated people with that inflexable list have quit, and everyone's gone 'Oh well, now Eldar just can't be played competatively anymore...'
It's simply not true. Open your books, think, and try something new. It works. :)
Eldar still rock out.
Respect for avoiding those units which some considered 'broken'.
My first experiences with eldar was in epic space marine and the same holds true now. Eldar can win a lot but it`s very stressful to play them. I'm going to switch back to marines for a while. I'm tired of getting a sick feeling in my stomach every time I see an ap4 weapon.
As for eldar being powered down? They have merely been more balanced. Waithlords can't be mowed down by a pair of assault cannons. Falcons are less ludicrously invulnerable. Get easy cover saves. Harder to dodge assaults. win lose works out in the end.
Besides playing eldar ain`t about winning! Its about making your opponent brick it for 2-3 turns before the attrition kicks in and he realizes that your army has losing its bite because all he had to do to cripple you was ignore the falcons for 2 turns.
I still have 4000+ points of Eldar. It is still my primary army and I love playing them. It's been ages since I've lost a game. As another poster pointed out, often when things look bad, you can still tie a game due to the mobility/flexibility that Eldar offers.
In my play circle we don't have many horde players (a few nids) but most of the ork players are still putting together/painting there army.
Are there are quite a few things that got much weaker going from 4th ---> 5th, sure:
-Falcons are much weaker, I still think they're good but you need to actually think to use them.
-Rangers keep getting weaker and weaker... due to more and more races obtaining ways to remove/ignore cover (It really annoys me in the context of Rangers). That said, they're still a great troop choice but it makes the upgraded pathfinders point sink rarely worth taking.
-Banshees, now that they can't start an assault after finishing one off has made them much much weaker. I honestly think they could use a buff, like being able to assault out of a wave serpent (still can only move 12" and disembark and I don't think it would be overpowered).
-Warp Spiders super nerfed: AP dash and the new vehicle damage chart made them worthless Vs vehicles, difficult terrain has a chance to kill them (needed change for Tau balancing, but unnecessary for WarpSpiders imo), LOS changes mean it's much harder for them to hide, CC now very deadly so tying things up less useful, Hit and run requires a leadership test. IMO they could use a veil of tears power.
-Harle's rending got nerfed, but still really good.
-Autarch, one of his powers are now worthless (Strategy rating buff), imo could use his toughness to be counted as T4 for instant death purposes.
Eldar still have a ton of great units and huge array of flexibility in list choices.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40K-PRO-PAINTED-A...
The Eldar list is the most anti-horde army in the 40K world. Mix in a little Guide and Doom and the mobs disappear.
I played an Ulthwe dude at the last tourney I went to, he absolutely destroyed my buddies nids, guess what he had, 1 Falcon, 3 SL Warwalkers, Direavenger in WS, Storm Guardians in WS and a butt load of Doom and guide. I did beat him with my dark eldar though! Keeeyah!
If anyone is still fielding 3 falcon lists they are missing the boat in 5th: Volume of fire, quantity over quality. They need to adjust and use more of the codex.
What I think people may be witnessing is just Mech Eldar no longer being practically invulnerable. Their tanks can now die.
My last 7-8 games (everything I can remember basically) with mechanized eldar utilizing outflanking war walkers have all been rather significant victories, even against Orks. People need to stop relying on Harlies, Characters and Holofields, start fielding large numbers of guns (warwalker work well for this) and lots of dudes with some decent tank support in the form of wave serpents (ML+shuricannon combo allows them to perform admirably as anti-infantry support with some anti-tank ability) and kill the enemy rather than simply relying on wargear.
Stelek has an interesting 1750 list I'd like to try... due to not purchasing holo-fields (35*3=105 saved) you can afford more tanks and gain more firepower and presents more targets for your opponent. 4 waves, 2 falcons, 1 prism is a ton of grav tanks to deal with.
Personally I think BL > EML on a wave, but I like EML on my Falcons.
WAH! We poor Eldar players aren't the absolute best anymore! Wah! We aren't completely broken! Poor, poor us!
Sorry. Had to get that out there.
Look, I play Tyranids, so I know what it's like to go from really-damned-good to only moderately-above-average. That being said, I also play Daemonhunters, which is why I have little patience with discussions like these. The fact of the matter is, 5th edition leveled the playing field, which is good for the game in general. However, very old codices are still comparatively very weak, and very new codices are still comparatively very strong. That makes the most financial sense for GW (sell more models to people collecting flavor-of-the-month armies), so it's just a reality we're all going to have to learn to live with.
The game has caused a tactic shift, and some people haven't caught up yet, or can't, and have moved to an army with which they can use the tactics for.
I've played against a few eldar lists that were very versatile and performed extremely well.
The biggest overall shift in the game is the new wound allocation, it negated the whole ablative wound troopers of 4th that kept that special weapon, or upgraded character alive until the end. Now he's as likely to die first as anyone else.
I've played marines for years now and moved to Eldar 2 years ago. Before and after 5th I had a very specific aim in mind with them...mobility.
That mobility meant jetbikes by the shed load in the form of guardians and spears along with an Autarch, Farseer and some Warlocks mixed amongst those units. I added to that some prisms for fire support and then looked at serpents and the various foot aspect warriors to go in them.
I'm now up to 36 jetbikes, 8 spears, 2 autarchs, 2 farseers and 5 warlocks all modelled up to choose my flying list. Generaly I mix and match depending on my mood by my tactics vary considerably from hit and run with jetbikes, warlocks and seers to solid smashing with spears and using small squads of jetbikes to annoy units by softening them with 1 or 2 kills a turn. Nothing has changed in the rules for jetbikes from 4th to 5th Ed so nothing has changed in how I use them...the only new thing I can do with them is go to ground (yep, check it out, they can go to ground!!! Really handy for objectives and surviving that potential 6th and 7th turn of fire with your guardians hiding on one that's behind cover of even just inside it.
I still use a couple of prisms at the back of the battlefield only I now use buildings to cover half their hull or completely hide one while it gives fire support to the other. They've got a 60" range...they shouldn't be getting shot easily when they can just move 24" away from the nearest lascannon or other 48" tank killer. And I'm getting cover saves now instead of glancing hits...no big deal cause I always accepted that if they get shot at all, I could loose them...so the tactic was obviously to stop them getting shot.
I've more recently discovered with 5th that you have to rethink how you use the transports and foot sloggers with the new scenario's but as I only use serpents to transport my sloggers, the dawn of war scenario doesn't bother me and objectives are a mute point since I've always used jetbikes in the past and will continue to do so. Just now I'm claiming a single part of the field instead of my opponents deployment zone or a table quarter...no big change realy.
I still use Vypers kitted out with the underslung cannons and usualy missile launchers....moving 12" and firing either all weapons with a plasma missile or taking a pot shot with a krak is just too damn usefull in my opinion. Again, I can get cover saves for my units of vehicles now so even better! The Vyper is suddenly harder than it was instead of weaker. Where-as most shots that hit them would be pretty much guarateed to do damage, I have a 50/50 chance of stopping those shots. For best affect, I've found that using them in squads of 3 for back of the table fire support or squads of 2 putting one partialy behind cover (only 50% of one has to be covered to get the cover save) for darting around the battlefield. Add to that the 24 inch flat out speed and they can still contest objectives. Sure they can't claim or score like in table quarters or recon but they're an extra unit stopping the opponent scoring with one of theirs.
So far I've only built up my Reapers with a wave serpent but that was due to taking them to the GT last year and needing some anti marine weapons in that tempest launcher with crack shot. That and it gave me a twin bright lance on the serpent that effectively could shoot 60" (48" range and 12" movement) meaning I could pick any target on the field that I wanted.
I think.....if anything has changed....it's people's mentality to the game since 5th has forced people to stop relying so much on the power house units and start using the lowly troops choice.
I have to admit to seeing some-one already comment on my next unit build to add to the host....Wave serpent, banshee's and farseer with fortune and doom. I think this unit is probably the next hot killer for Eldar. Power weapons are now more potent than ever and with cover playing a much more dramatic role in keeping units safe from fire, those I10 banshees that ignore cover and can re-roll to wound (Farseer and doom) will realy start to make short work of cover running assault units.
One thing a lot of people seem to think is that they should compare units and leave it at that.......Don't forget that you've got a full army at your disposal. You can't just point up 10 banshees Vs how-ever many orks (30 I think?) and say who's better.
You've gotta remember that those 30 odd orks will have been softened to 20 maybe 15 by long range firepower before the banshee's hit them.....I'm using this as an example by the way, the same theory can still be applied accross the board.
I'm not complaining one bit about the rules affecting the Eldar.....it doesn't realy affect my army that much and I've never realy struggled with it. I generaly play for fun with my jetbike host but when I want to knuckle down and create a GT style list, I can soon come up with something nasty enough to take on most comers that won't be as expected as some lists are...though there is some of the usual favourites in there.
An example list would be:
Farseer on JB with doom/fortune and spear - 188
Autarch on JB with laser lance and mandi's - 130
5 Spears with exarch, star lance, withdraw and skill rider - 237
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150
6 jetbikes with 2 cannons - 152
5 jebikes with warlock, destructor and spear - 168
1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160
1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160
This all comes to a total of 1495 points.
Anti tank we have:
2 Prisms (2 str 9 shots or 1 Str 10 twin linked)
4 Missile launchers (4 str 8 shots)
5 Spears and autarch (5 Str 6 lances and a str 8 lance)
2 Singing spears
Anti horde we have:
2 Prisms (2 Str 5 AP 4 or 1 Str 6 Ap3 twin linked large blast)
4 Missile launchers (4 str 4 AP 4 pinning blasts)
1 Destructor (Str 5 AP 4 template)
2 Cannons and 10 twin catapults (10 Str 4 AP 5 and 6 Str 6 AP 5)
Autarch and Spears shooting (5 Str 6 AP 4 and 1 Str 8 AP 4)
Autarch and Spears on the charge (14 Str 6 power weaps and 3 Str 8 power weaps)
This's just an example list thrown up from memory. I'm sure with some tweaking it could probably be made better but from what I see, I've got a good mix of a lot of both anti-tank and anti-troop with back-up for everything.
To me Eldar haven't lost a lot from the rules changes....they've just changed slightly in terms of those grav-tanks having to rely on cover instead of just moving 7" every turn.....But then...most of the units I use haven't realy been affected and those which have been affected are actualy a bit better off (Vypers getting cover) or shouldn't suffer either way (Prisms with 60" range shouldn't be getting shot!!)
But when that Wave Serpent gets marker-lighted up and they remove your 4+ cover save, all of a sudden fortuned is not looking so hot -- So no, I don't think that is the next big thing.
That and Shees now charge out and lets say they get an assault off, once they're done they now get shot up to all hell. With the loss of chain assaults, they have become much weaker. While I think the change to multiple assaults was needed, I also think Shees need a slight buff to compensate for the loss.
Course, I'd love to give a good fight against Tau with this list, especialy a well made Tau army.....they won they GT over here in the UK this year!
-spiritstones
-doom, storm, mind war
Banshees 8 + exarch w/ powers (executioner)
-waveserpent TW BL and shuri cannon
-spirit stone, star engines
Avengers 8 + exarch w/ powers (dire sword)
-waveserpent TW BL and shuri cannon
-spirit stone, star engines
Avengers 8 + exarch w/ powers (dire sword)
-waveserpent TW BL and shuri cannon
-spirit stone, star engines
Hawks 5 + exarch w/ powers (talon)
Hawks 5 + exarch w/ powers (talon)
Hawks 5 + exarch w/ powers (talon)
Fireprism
-spirit stone, star engines
-holofield
Fireprism
-spirit stone, star engines
-holofield
2K list. the best.
It's a shame, to me anyway, what 5th ed. is devolving to. The addition of the run rule, and the advent of 'universal' 4+ invulnerable-errr...I mean COVER save, has made 40k all about getting masses of infantry across the board to shove pointy things in your enemies face. The shooting aspect of the game is losing ground. 5th ed. is all about big assault phase battles. At least that's what I'm seeing so far. I can't remember the last time I saw an Eldar army on the table. I haven't seen ANY in 5th ed.
Don't forget Tau get the Stealth suit which can jump forward, shoot and then jump back but with all the advantages of the Harlequin Shadowseer.....I hate stealth suits!
Nah, stealth suits are not a good unit in 5th ed. IMO, the Tau are only for the masochistic right now. The only unit we have that can mix it up are kroot, and they're HORRIBLE. Poor statline, no armor save. So basically your stuck with an army that cannot truly do anything during the assault phase, except get chewed up. Tau players are missing out on a lot of the fun of the game. It's kinda rough, IMO.
I truly, truly regret choosing Tau as my first army. There are just so many designated assault armies out there, and they just eat Tau alive- from Ravenwing to Nids, Blood Angel to Orks, just so many. I chose Tau 'cuz I liked the battlesuits. Now, if you asked me, I should have just picked Space Marines. They're versatile enough for a variety of play styles, and a 3+ armor save as standard is awesome.
Until GW gives the Tau Empire a new codex, and introduces Tau players to our new 'assault suits', I'm a really unhappy camper. Actually, I'm sorry for this post....I just need to rant ;P
I think a dual Autarch reserve build might be challenging with the right table and objective configuration.
basically hoon around in serpents while the enemy tries to deal with T8 and T6 monsters bearing down on their front line and then dump your troops on hi weak parts. you should be able to run rings around people, if you are having orks and berserkers smash headlong into your HQ what is your deal man...
Reasaon I say T8 and T6 isn't scary is because everyone and his mum now carries a powerfist of some kind...you'd be a fool not to take a Nob in every ork squad with a powerclaw just for those occasions and the amount of Str 8 or "sniper" style weapons that're out there makes it easy to get rid of those T8 beasts....as for T6, when using Str 4 attacks you only need to roll so many 6's before people start failing armour/invuns....and when a squad of 30 orks can dish out 120 attacks on the charge..I think they'll get a few 6's in there somewhere.
Eldrad is amazing. He helps to hurt Lash Prince by screwing with their ability to cast psychic powers. He can mindwar models multiple times in a turn. He makes other units in the army do really dumb stuff with saves and killing things. Powerclaws? He kills them with his mind.
The Avatar is dumb. It absolutely beats in h2h. Have you faced off against one of these things when it's getting to reroll its saves? Have fun dealing with that. 3+ re-rollable's basically failing 1 in 9. 4+ rerollable invuln is saveing 3 out of 4 times. Good night stupid powerclaws.
Eldar jetbikes, while maybe not the killiest of bikes, are fairly cheap for having a unit to grab objectives with on the last turn. You can hide them all game long showing them only with 3+ covers, only to grab the objective or contest another one on the final turn. All for under 100 pts. You can add a warlock with a heavy flamer to switch hit for some extra push against hordeish lists.
Wraithguard are quite possible the hardest TROOP choice to push off of an objective. They are expensive, but with most likely a constant 5+ cover, t6, 3+ armour, fearless. . . And if you need to, cast some doom with your farseer and try to instant kill some hard to deal with stuff by trying to hit as many 6's as possible.
Dire Avengers. . . do I really even need to talk about doom and guide? And should I mention Bladestorm? Have you seen with this does to terminators? Honestly? I hear that terminators with t-hammers and storm shields are seeing some play right now. . .
And last time I checked, Wraithlords are still decent. They are giant t8 monstrosities, so they are immune to s4 weaponry. Their biggest weakness, which was in h2h getting tied up indefinitely got quite a bit better with the changes to combat resolution. With a sword + ranged weapon load out, you can at least kill more models than are likely to wound you which means that you are more likely to give some extra minus's to win combat and not stay locked forever.
Rangers. Which are good because they become Pathfinders. Pathfinders are good because they have like a super-rend ability. Great for holding an objective on your side of the board while firing a whole bunch of ap1 and ap2 shots across the board. Last time I checked, that's pretty good against things with Feel No Pain like nob bikerz. Oh. . . and did a mention the cover save ridiculousness?
Fire Prison is actually better at killing this edition and a little less survivable. With TL being re-rolls to wound, and the change to scatter meaning that it is almost always touching something, these models can really hurt. But you want to at least run 2. Is it worth running 2 instead of Wraithlords. . . I don't know.
Guardians. . . still kind of suck. Though it should be mentioned that wave serpents are decent. But why run these guys when you could run any one of the other troop choices I mentioned.
Fire dragons are meh. Their value went down when hordes started appearing.
Faclons are meh. Their value went down when the game changed to being more objective based with the current edition. Now, tri-falcon loses the punch it had when it steal objectives on the last turn by boosting itself with a decent priced unit on top of an objective. It almost always invariably was worth more points so it captured the objective. Can't do that now. And it's killing power is not the greatest. It's not wonder these things aren't seeing more play. And it has nothing to do with these things being less survivable. I still have trouble killing one, honest. Holofield is still really good. And in smart movement and cover saves. . . good luck killing one of these. That's not the problem. The problem is scoring with them at the end of the battle.
Warwalkers are still ok. While never the greatest, they end up still being passable in their value as far as I'm concerned. They can pump out a lot of shots, but don't ever seem to be that great of a threat. Meh.
Harlequins are really kind of terrible right now. Once upon a time, this game wasn't really about capturing objectives. Or rather it was about putting these guys in unkillablle vehicles and denying your opponent points while simultaneously capturing pseudo objectives. These guys were pretty good then. With the change to rending, the change to scoring, and the change to combat chains of pain, these guys went waaaaaay down in value. Sorry you bought all those metal models.
So, notice this. A while back, tri-falcon was huge. Harlequins were huge. Notice, these things aren't so good now. That isn't to say that Eldar suck. In reality, they are far from it. The fact is though, you really want a farseer now more than ever. And while you're at it, Eldrad is just so worth the points. Eldar don't work unless they are getting their rerolls. And Eldar don't get rerolls if they don't have the farseer. Just do yourself a favor and stay away from things I didn't mention like banshees or scorpions (which I'll admit do get slightly better by getting the ability to outflank but they still aren't really worth it) or spiders. Models that were good a year or 2 ago are now not nearly good. That doesn't mean that the army isn't however. They are still a fairly strong choice. I understand that the stuff I mentioned here doesn't suit some players. That's fine as well. That doesn't mean the codex is terrible either. They have a lot of strong tools. But because of the synergy needed to actually pull it off, this army ends up being fairly difficult to play at times. But that again says nothing about it's strength. In a good players hands, this army can be very rough with a well-tailored list.
Falcon's have a cheap 60pt *I am scoring* upgrade it's called 5 man Dire Avenger Squad.
People always want to put on the sexy weapons on warwalkers, but everyone is right then they are too expensive. but for 120 points you can get a lot of fire power. And if you really want to take out hordes have 3 squads for 360 points. Thats 54 str 6 shots. Orks and nids charge towards you so range does not really matter and even if you have 2 farseers in a 1500 point list you still have about 1000 points to deal with talks and things and other sexy stuff.
210 points for 6 EML gives you 48", 24" range is crap!
Vs Horde, 6 Str4, AP4 small blast can net upwards 30+ wounds (give or take) and with 2 in 6 chance of a *hit* it's also less reliant on a Farseer baby sitter.
Plus it has the versatility of being able to take out light vehicles with 6 Str8 shots (granted odds are you'll only hit with 3).
Lets say you get matched up Vs another Eldar player... In this example, my walkers would have a huge advantage being able to shoot you at 48" and you'd most likely die before entering 24" range. 48" gives the walkers lots of breathing room and keeps them off the front line and out of a great deal of weapon fire.
I don't know about you, but my gaming group we roll off to see who we're playing and with the wide range of players on our Tuesday night games we never know what race we'll be fighting (SM, Orcs, Nids, Eldar, Chaos, Necron, Daemon, etc) so we always have to build "take all comers lists"
Been checked at GT and stated as correct.
Check the Eldar FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProdu...
It clarifies which powers are psychic shooting attacks.
Then read the rules Psykers page 50 (40K rule book):
Psychic Shooting Attacks:
"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack".
It's pretty crystal clear and totally spelled out, they made a mistake at GT, if that is the case.
I noticed that GT actualy got a few things wrong now that I look over them.
For instance, they say you can't doom an enemy unit that is inside another transport if you're in a transport. There's nothing in the rules for Doom saying that you can't and doom doesn't need line of sight...so to me, it's a mistake on that front.
Have a check ouf of the GT rulepack on Warhammer World and you'll see what I mean.
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/microso...
Section 187 is where the question of Eldrad using 2 psychic shooting attacks comes into play. They clarfiy that he can't target seperate units but they don't say he can't use the 2 powers. After your quoting, this to me is a huge oversight.
In a 1850 point game you can fit Karandras, 30 Striking Scorpions (Thats about 35 S4 attacks at WS 5 and I 5 when they GET charged. With a 3+ armor save all for about the same points as a space marine I have no idea why no one takes them! Banshees SUCK!!!) with 2 squads in waveserpants outflanking and Karandras's squad infiltrating (He confers infiltrate, stealth, and move through cover). Even with all that you still have about 600-700 points left to buy heavies and troops. The only weakness with this army is its lack of anti vehicle joy, but I personally like solving this with suicide vypers (Vypers can ram with str 10 for 70 points each. Since they are in a squadron they actually can escape unscathed, but 2 str 10 hits will kill most tanks.) and lots of missile launchers.
On a side note, what is with the obsession with the starcannon? Its really not all that useful anymore, as you have better ways to kill marines (ie: wraithlord, crap tons of dice, fire prisms, etc) and for its price the missile launcher is far more versatile. With the improvement in blast weapons in 5th the eldar missile launcher kicks ass.
In any case, 5th Edition is about objectives (2/3 of the time) or killing at least one more unit than your opponent kills. Eldar have the ability to hide for most of the game and capture/contest objectives 24" away, which is a game winner against people who still are playing 3rd/4th edition in their heads.
A Fortuned,Concealed jetbike squad has a pretty decent chance of surviving until the last turn, for instance. The Eldar transport can get it's own sort of "turboboost" AND can carry anti-tank weaponry. The infantry inside aren't going to get out anyway unless they have to.
There's little reason to make a "take all comers" list, as all that's important to winning is making a list that can claim or contest as many objectives as possible at the last second. Of course, that assumes that one is only interested in winning/drawing games rather than having fun killing things. But when there are Ork lists out there that only another Ork list has a chance to face, even casual games are sometimes not so fun in standup fights.
30 infiltratring Scorpions would however probably cause a good amount of shock effect on most armies.
Btw, Striking Scorpion have WS4 and not WS5.
Everyone can now fleet, denying Eldar their speed advantage. High casualty rates in close combat are now a major problem for large but fragile units like Guardians. Some of the things that specific units relied on (swooping hawks' Haywire Grenades and Harlequins' kiss) have been depowered by rules changes.
And the Eldar have always had certain problems that players had to use smart tactics to circumvent. They're fragile and heavily specialised, meaning that few Eldar player's strategies survive contact with the enemy. If the unit that does the job you need done is unexpectedly wiped out, you need to switch to a back-up plan. That used to be easier with more highly effective units, and when the Eldar were much faster than everyone else.
Still an effective army, there's others that have been nerfed worse by 5th. And Eldar still have some very cool units and can still win games, but they have been knocked back a bit - I'd say it's harder to win with them than it used to be.
There's things I love about 5th. There's things it got 100% right, and it's more flexible than any edition since second, but unfortunately it did also tip the balance in favour of MEQ armies.
Basically speaking Eldar is a shooty army, with some close-to-top tier CC units. But what? TLOS+tons of cover saves are reducing amount of losses from shooting, especially against tough/hard units. The same goes for my Tau and the case is just far worse than Eldar.
Maybe I mess up with probabilities, but when Blasts are using scatter+2D6", the actual hit rate (as BS4, with 1" scatter allowance) is 14/27, just a bit better than BS3. Only after re-rolls it'll be better. Prisms are good yes, but think about how hard for one to harm an Eldar vehicle now? One shaken and you can only use the sub-par hit rate to do the job. Even if you hits, the abundance of cover (mostly 4+) will deny the shot. For once I faced a Marine player whose Thunderfire can only manage to kill 4 FWs throughout the game.
Taking away the advantage of Fleet, CC resolutions and firepower output, what Eldar left is just fragile, specialized units. Things are going for new armies' favour, and MEQ armies are becoming rock-hard units. Things are just becoming harder for Xenos armies......
Isee a lot of talk about how this unit or that unit is amazing. I'm sure it's all true. One thing I notice is that most of the units being mentioned aren't in my collection. I think part of the problem with Eldar now (more than before) is that it's not an army that lets you pick units based on aesthetic or backstory - typically their useful units aren't their most interesting. This is a problem for some other armies too, but it's just recently become a prob for Eldar.
Perhpas my horde is not a "well commanded horde list", but I don't think I'm a terrible player. And I have huge problems fighting against the Eldar.
The key is their ability to put huge amounts of hurt on specific areas of the battlefield while avoiding a lot of my army (due to range, cover, speed etc).
When fighting against a horde you don't have to kill everyone. You only have to kill everyone who can get into charge range in their next turn. And that is something a well commanded Eldar army can still do very, very well.
Perhaps other super-powerful armies have become more exciting? Perhaps it's harder for Eldar players than it is for some of the others to build lists that are good at taking on both hordes _and_ elite armies, making them less attractive when going to a tournament?
I don't know. But I do know that Eldar can still seriously maul hordes.
Frankly, the only people who should be surprised by this sort of 'scope creep / power creep' in 40K codex design are newbies - and you're not a newbie Red. I'm not saying GW can't design a balanced Rules Set and a supporting Codex system. I'm saying it isn't in their financial interest to do so - and they're all about the profits.
I like their minis, and I like the 40K backstory - but what veteran 40K player shouldn't be used to ignoring / house ruling the intentionally broken parts of the 40K system by now or surprised that the 'flavor of the month' codex is now more powerful than the previously released codex for the given edition?
If the whole thing of power creep was true then marines should be more powerful than orks and that is DEFINATLY not true. *looks at Lootas Deth Rollaz and Nob Bikers*
Blood Angles should be the most powerful marine varient list.
Nids should be one of the weakest armies out there worse than tau.
Space Wolves should be unbelivebly bad and DE worse.
In contradiction to this.
I've recently seen Dark Eldar place highly at several tournaments.
Space wolves can have a unit with 3 assault cannons and storm shields.
Blood Angles as some of the players will happily tell you are under powered.
The point I'm making is that GW don't break codexes. Players break codexes by looking for a easy way to win and exploit a rule or rules that were not around when a codex was released E.G. wound allocation. As you said if you don't like it you can ignore or house rule it. In the end it comes down to the player not the developer.
2/3 of all 5th Edition games involve objectives, Eldar have fast as shit scoring units (guardian jetbikes) what else is there to discuss?
A point which I feel I must make is that there is no longer "guaranteed" last turn in the game.
You HAVE to do your objective grabbing on turn 5 to ensure you've got them and there's a 2/3 chance there's going to be another turn where your objective grabbers are going to get pummeled.
Jetbikes are good at darting around but with a Ld of 8, T4 and 3+ save at 22 points per model....you're going to be lucky to be able to take squads consisting of more than 6 models. Sure you can beef up with a Warlock and prevent them running away with Embolden....but when you've suddenly committed them in turn 5 to holding an objective and another turn rolls over...killing 6 jetbikes isn't exactly a chore for any decent player who wants to take down one of your only troops choices.
Will EVERYONE please stop saying "last turn objective grab".....unless it's turn 7, there is NO LONGER a set turn for the last turn of a game....You HAVE to commit turn 5 which can mean suicide if luck doesn't turn in your direction!
-=end angry rant=-
Farseer on JB with doom/fortune and spear - 188
Autarch on JB with laser lance and mandi's - 130
5 Spears with exarch, star lance, withdraw and skill rider - 237
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150
6 jetbikes with 2 cannons - 152
5 jebikes with warlock, destructor and spear - 168
1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160
1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160
I played a marine+Tau army (1000 marine and 500 tau combined as the players couldn't make the full 1500 with just marines) and basicaly took out 2 squads of fire warriors with just the Farseer, Warlock and 4 jetbikes. Doom with all that shuriken on those low toughness, 4+ save units went down a treat and the squad cut the rest down in combat....I know firewarriors aren't combat units but neither are jetbikes, the additional Seer and Warlock made all the difference to that unit and in the end the 2 spears bagged a predator as well before the farseer left the unit sat on an objective and held up an Honour Guard squad for 2 turns. At the end of it, it was a very comfortable win on the objective front (2 objectives in each deployment) as I held them both and there was nothing realy that either army could do in responce. Calgar and 5 termies deep struck down and were left scratching their asses as my army just flew away from them. Course, I'd have been screwed if they'd caught up with me but wasn't too bothered as I was simply waiting for them to leave cover so I could hit them with the prisms and spears.
Second game I played was against deamons. I was a no hoper for the deamon player. His army came down where he wanted it but as it was dawn of war I gave him first turn and brought everything on after he'd brought half his army down....this ment I could fly in 12" and literaly just pick my targets. By the end of my shooting (night fighting didn't bother me) he had very little left on the field. By the end of the game I'd lost 1 jetbike to a lone deamonette who I'd let get too close after killing her entire squad in the first round of shooting and 1 Vyper which was taken down by Fiends because I misjudged how far away I was from them by half an inch.
Totaling it up, I believe there was 20 deamonettes, 20 bloodletters, 6 flamers, the Maske (or however it's spelt) and the skulltaker along with 3 fiends and a greater deamon of slaanesh. My army ment he just could not get close enough to get into combat and the Pavane couldn't pull the jetbikes close enough for assault as I held them well away from the maske and keeper of secrets.
Having wiped out his entire army by turn 5, I feel quite confident that this list could easily deal with an ork horde and having used it against marines and deamons...I can't say I see any "codex creep" as these are two new armies which had no real answer to the list I've devised.
They are still good, they just need a change now.
There is plenty they can do against horde lists. Scatter lasers, fire prisms, bladestorming dire avengers, eldrich storm, the list goes on.
But I do not believe the eldar are under powered, just a little finicky. The only complaint I have, is that units like warp spiders and striking scorpions are not nearly as useful as they used to be. That said I still believe the new codex is excellent. I only hope the new Space Wolf codex is made to the same high level of quality.
They are certainly not purely a cheesy army either:
The Avatar can be taken down (like anything else in the game) with concentrated firepower. If you just feed him one unit at a time he'll eat them for breakfast.
Eldrad is one bad man, but he can be dealt with too: assault him! Do it with two or three units if you must, but if you can wipe his unit (they're TOUGHNESS THREE!!!) and make him take a leadership test at -7 or -8, you can sweep his ass off the table and he'll hightail it just like a squad of Necron warriors!
Fire Prisms went from being slightly overpowered to being priced JUST RIGHT. The book was designed for fifth edition, and the units were pointed out accordingly. They may be the toughest thing to kill in the codex, but they do not usually land the killing blow either. They're a pain in the rear, but they're more of an annoyance than a real threat.
I play Dark Eldar and Codex Marines, and I usually do just fine against most players. An Eldar player with a comparable skill level to me generally plays as close a game (against either of my armies) as just about any other army, so the question asked here is answered in my opinion: Eldar are a fair, balanced and winning army. They win some and they lose some, and are not the A-bomb in the game of Rock, Paper Scissors we call Warhammer 40,000.
At least that is how I play them, and while I've played a fair few games with my Eldar it has always been against the same friends who agree with my interpretation.
However I agree that it is unclear and could prove contentious, and I also wish that it would be FAQ'd.
Correct me, please, if my memory is wrong.
P.S.: Again, if my mind ain't playing tricks with me, these Exarch-Autarch compatibility issues were described somewhere around Autarch's entry/description in the book.