Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Slow reply — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:39:57 -0000

Can't quite see the problem here. IIRC Codex quite clearly specified that Exarch powers are applied to the Autarch at the moment of joining, and that the whole unit uses it with him in - with an exception for Infiltrate. So, remembering the previous issues resolved in the FAQs over the new ed., it was often said there that Codex specialties should override the Rulebook generalities when similar conflicts arose.
Correct me, please, if my memory is wrong.
P.S.: Again, if my mind ain't playing tricks with me, these Exarch-Autarch compatibility issues were described somewhere around Autarch's entry/description in the book.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

DustDevil — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 08:28:48 -0000

I also work on the principle that an exarch power works on the whole unit, and if an autarch joins that unit then, where relevant, he gets the power aswell. Afterall the cost for the power is not tied to the cost for an individual trooper, so the autarch is not getting a power that he should otherwise be paying points for. Whenever I see a conflict for any rule I use the codex interpretation above the basic rules interpretation (as I think this better represents how something should work for a specific army), and this simple says that the whole unit get the ability. I think it even says somewhere in the rulebook or codex that you should use the codex first when determining how a rule works (i'm at work so can't check).

At least that is how I play them, and while I've played a fair few games with my Eldar it has always been against the same friends who agree with my interpretation.

However I agree that it is unclear and could prove contentious, and I also wish that it would be FAQ'd.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Jaqen — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 00:54:06 -0000

I used it with harlequins this weekend and it presented a problem(i know exarchs provide for the whole unit unlike harleys that have it already in the chars

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Jaqen — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:49:05 -0000

I do have a question that I wish GW would answer in the FAQ. In one of the GW autarch tactica pages, they suggest adding a body guard like shining spears with an exarch that has withdraw so that the autarch doesn't get locked in combat. According to the rulebook, an independent char. cannot acquire the certain abilities(i.e.hit and run) that the adjoined squad has and the adjoined squad cannot use them while the IC is in them. I am sure that the writers of the codex did not intend to have the autarch gimp the aspect warriors that it joins, nor does it make sense fluff wise. Does any one have some insight as to how to make this work?

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Jaqen — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:20:30 -0000

Someone made a comment about it being unfair to compare eldar to IG because IG are underpowered. Well let me present this to you, guard will now cost 4pts/model. Assuming their gun costs 1 point of that 4, we can say guardians with the same stat line, pay 5pts/model for the shuriken catapult... Well the range of the lasgun is double that of the shurcat, sooo I am fairly certain the 5x price is an over pay. If you use the guardians as the base for the rest of the point allocations in the eldar codex, their is a large inconsistency between power/pts. I mean eldar jetbikes rock, but why do shining spears cost the same as wraithguard? If you were to put the stats of direavengers on jetbikes, you can justify the hop from the regular eldar jetbikes price from 22 to 26, but I would not say 6"S6 lance weapons are worth any points(avenger catupult is already better so we'll include this swap as a freebie) for their minimal chance to glance something before getting assaulted(assuming you have experienced players) and then that cool S6pw might cost 3 pts seeing as though it is not a constantly amazing weapon. BTW, FoF used to make the eldar significantly more maneuverable than most other armies, well now it only helps with assault which simply grants your CC a 7-12 assault range while run makes all of your enemies troops faster. This makes FoF advantageous only in assault oriented squads and only if they are close enough to take that chance and should they fail to go far enough guess which eldar CC squad just wiped. I know swooping hawks FoFing is amazing if you want them to get killed in CC instead of getting killed elsewise. All of the nids have FoF now, and Orks have that wonderful once per game FoF(again, u only need it once) making those two hordes more difficult to handle. And vs. spacemarines... LOL to all the space marine players that claim eldar are balanced... If you are a space marine player who always loses to eldar, it is not that they are inherently better, it is that the eldar player is a better player than you. SM get CODDLED by GW, and once that umbilical cord is cut(like that will ever happen) you will finally no longer set the balancing point(meaning every other army needs to get powered up to equal you). If you have trouble with the vehicles, welcome to the club, they rock, but you CAN deal, i would say eldar vehicles are priced fine. Combat Squading, Drop Pods, jump infantry, open top vehicles, librarians... if you can't think of a way to use every other armies focus as well as the amazing ones that are your own to handle the eldar, you should just quit playing now. The only eldar that should beat you is MEQ, and that means the eldar have a slim chance of changing up their army against you meaning you know what to expect. Anyway, that was just a load of SM hate I needed to get out of my system, lol. realistically, eldar are a little overpriced on quite a few units, and I would like to see some new and interesting rules to make the maneuverability of infantry a little better or reduce the prices of basic troops since troops are becoming a more valuable asset in the current games. And this is only due to the fact that I don't like being forced into specific amry lists to keep the power/points competitive.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Dacius — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:02:20 -0000

how would a warboss get a save and feel no pain from mindwar?

plus the lash prince is just a parlor trick, and against the eldar you will never get it off.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Eldar — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 16:26:11 -0000

Conrad you are an idiot

177points = 9 BS4 meltaguns and an assault heavy flamer that rerolls to wound..... super cheap!

3 Warwalkers with dual shruiken is just 120points!!! An amazing firemagnet, think how many missiles this will attract. Whilst alive it averages 9 strength 6 hits a turn...... for 120points!!!

3 jetbikes zooming around for 70ish points with an invulnerable save and taking an objective at the end of the game....awesome!

oh yeah then you've got the 10direavengers and 5 scorps with claw, home objective babysitters for 200ish points

I don't know why people buy farseer's though.... waste of points really unless guide seer for 75points, but even then, i'm sceptical.

Eldrad is a beast though..... but at a cost to your full army

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Loins_of_Steel — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 15:09:49 -0000

Eldar do just fine. They're a fast competitive army and nothing in the list totally sucks. If you like the unit, it CAN be played in some role.

They are certainly not purely a cheesy army either:

The Avatar can be taken down (like anything else in the game) with concentrated firepower. If you just feed him one unit at a time he'll eat them for breakfast.

Eldrad is one bad man, but he can be dealt with too: assault him! Do it with two or three units if you must, but if you can wipe his unit (they're TOUGHNESS THREE!!!) and make him take a leadership test at -7 or -8, you can sweep his ass off the table and he'll hightail it just like a squad of Necron warriors!

Fire Prisms went from being slightly overpowered to being priced JUST RIGHT. The book was designed for fifth edition, and the units were pointed out accordingly. They may be the toughest thing to kill in the codex, but they do not usually land the killing blow either. They're a pain in the rear, but they're more of an annoyance than a real threat.

I play Dark Eldar and Codex Marines, and I usually do just fine against most players. An Eldar player with a comparable skill level to me generally plays as close a game (against either of my armies) as just about any other army, so the question asked here is answered in my opinion: Eldar are a fair, balanced and winning army. They win some and they lose some, and are not the A-bomb in the game of Rock, Paper Scissors we call Warhammer 40,000.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Oldwolf — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:16:05 -0000

I've played eldar for a long, long time. I picked Ulthwe for my craftworld because my first 50 games were played against chaos. Back then Eldrad was picked only for flavor as a generic farseer was superior. I have always found eldar to be a finesse army. Careful consideration always had to be given to the construction of your army list or you died horribly. There seems to be very little middle ground. That is why I found eldar a poor choice for tournaments, as one list to fight a variety of opponents, was difficult to make.
But I do not believe the eldar are under powered, just a little finicky. The only complaint I have, is that units like warp spiders and striking scorpions are not nearly as useful as they used to be. That said I still believe the new codex is excellent. I only hope the new Space Wolf codex is made to the same high level of quality.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

purplespladge — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:55:55 -0000

Its over nine-thooooouuuuuuussaaaand!

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Old Shat — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 10:35:41 -0000

I didn't get a chance to read through all of these comments but I have to put in my two cents. I think the eldar are an extremely powerful army against any enemy. There are not an autoi-pilot army. you have to be careful how you use them, how their force is applied and where.

There is plenty they can do against horde lists. Scatter lasers, fire prisms, bladestorming dire avengers, eldrich storm, the list goes on.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Communist — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 02:44:36 -0000

I have it on the best of opinion that the eldar power level, as always, is still over 9000.

They are still good, they just need a change now.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Molochi — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:27:13 -0000

@Conrad
Yeah. Those are all valid points. The OP was basically just presenting the scenario of 30 FDs versus a Maxed Nob Biker squad, so that's what I was working on.

I don't think I or any other Eldar player worth their Wraithsalt would really do something like that. A more balanced list generally works much better in any case.

For some reason, Eldar lists do well when you double up on a single selection. (2x 3 War walkers, 2x Warp Spiders, etc) Something about being more directed.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

SinSynn — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:54:58 -0000

war walkers ARE cool, and are good at what they do, but the problem id they're competing for a heavy support slot against wraithlords, falcons and fire prisms. If they were a fast attack choice, which they SHOULD be, they would see more usage. And, boy, if they were a fast attack choice, you surely could build an evil, evil, missile throwin' list. They look good next to vypers with lances.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

SinSynn — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:28:34 -0000

stealth suits are equipped with burst cannons, one in three can equip a fusion blaster. Burst cannon- 18 inch range. Fusion blaster- 12 inch range. Tau assault phase movement- max. 6 inches. Total max. range to enemy following movement/shooting/assault phase- 24 inches. Many, many assault type troop choices in the game can still move/run/assault a stealth suit team from 24 inches. At toughness 3, w/s 2[or 3 for 10 more pts.], and at a base cost of 30 whopping points each [that's BEFORE any wargear, like shield/gun drones or targeting arrays, etc.], stealth suits have been dropped from my list for some time now. They are way too expensive to watch a buch of 12 to 16 point troops destroy in an assault because you thought you were far enough away to jump in, shoot, and jump back. Don't even think about jumping back into cover to slow down that assault, you'll have to take a dangerous terrain test. I can't express the pain you'll feel after losing a 30 plus point unit to a failed dangerous terrain test. When you see that 'one' come up, you die a little inside. But, then again, I've done that with a Shas'o. I immediately walked away from the table before I broke something, or someone, in a fit of rage.
Nah, stealth suits are not a good unit in 5th ed. IMO, the Tau are only for the masochistic right now. The only unit we have that can mix it up are kroot, and they're HORRIBLE. Poor statline, no armor save. So basically your stuck with an army that cannot truly do anything during the assault phase, except get chewed up. Tau players are missing out on a lot of the fun of the game. It's kinda rough, IMO.
I truly, truly regret choosing Tau as my first army. There are just so many designated assault armies out there, and they just eat Tau alive- from Ravenwing to Nids, Blood Angel to Orks, just so many. I chose Tau 'cuz I liked the battlesuits. Now, if you asked me, I should have just picked Space Marines. They're versatile enough for a variety of play styles, and a 3+ armor save as standard is awesome.
Until GW gives the Tau Empire a new codex, and introduces Tau players to our new 'assault suits', I'm a really unhappy camper. Actually, I'm sorry for this post....I just need to rant ;P

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Conrad — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:05:58 -0000

Further to my previous post on an example list. I just used the below today in 2 games at the club I run:
Farseer on JB with doom/fortune and spear - 188
Autarch on JB with laser lance and mandi's - 130

5 Spears with exarch, star lance, withdraw and skill rider - 237
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150
2 Vypers with cannons and missiles - 150

6 jetbikes with 2 cannons - 152
5 jebikes with warlock, destructor and spear - 168

1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160
1 Fire Prisms with spirit stones and holo-fields - 160

I played a marine+Tau army (1000 marine and 500 tau combined as the players couldn't make the full 1500 with just marines) and basicaly took out 2 squads of fire warriors with just the Farseer, Warlock and 4 jetbikes. Doom with all that shuriken on those low toughness, 4+ save units went down a treat and the squad cut the rest down in combat....I know firewarriors aren't combat units but neither are jetbikes, the additional Seer and Warlock made all the difference to that unit and in the end the 2 spears bagged a predator as well before the farseer left the unit sat on an objective and held up an Honour Guard squad for 2 turns. At the end of it, it was a very comfortable win on the objective front (2 objectives in each deployment) as I held them both and there was nothing realy that either army could do in responce. Calgar and 5 termies deep struck down and were left scratching their asses as my army just flew away from them. Course, I'd have been screwed if they'd caught up with me but wasn't too bothered as I was simply waiting for them to leave cover so I could hit them with the prisms and spears.

Second game I played was against deamons. I was a no hoper for the deamon player. His army came down where he wanted it but as it was dawn of war I gave him first turn and brought everything on after he'd brought half his army down....this ment I could fly in 12" and literaly just pick my targets. By the end of my shooting (night fighting didn't bother me) he had very little left on the field. By the end of the game I'd lost 1 jetbike to a lone deamonette who I'd let get too close after killing her entire squad in the first round of shooting and 1 Vyper which was taken down by Fiends because I misjudged how far away I was from them by half an inch.

Totaling it up, I believe there was 20 deamonettes, 20 bloodletters, 6 flamers, the Maske (or however it's spelt) and the skulltaker along with 3 fiends and a greater deamon of slaanesh. My army ment he just could not get close enough to get into combat and the Pavane couldn't pull the jetbikes close enough for assault as I held them well away from the maske and keeper of secrets.

Having wiped out his entire army by turn 5, I feel quite confident that this list could easily deal with an ork horde and having used it against marines and deamons...I can't say I see any "codex creep" as these are two new armies which had no real answer to the list I've devised.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Conrad — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:51:51 -0000

@Molachi.

UK GT is 1500. And thanks for saying you were talking more about just taking down the bikes. The point I was making was that using that as a "standard" list makes them obsolete because you'll never just face Nobs on bikes. For the points, you'll face the Nobs, 40-50 orks in trucks and 10xD3 str 7 shots and you've spent 1121 points just taking out the Nobs.

Other thing I wanted to mention was that for the 1121 points, an ork player could take 2 small squads of nobs on bikes (6-8 in a squad) which'll force you to split fire etc.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

hao — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:38:38 -0000

It really depends on which enemy you're facing. Striking Scorpions have more attacks than Banshees and at S4 instead S3. But against an enemy with a high armour save like marines, Banshees are IMO still a better option due to their power weapons. Especially if you Doom the enemy squad with your Farseer before charging. In that case 10 Banshees including an Exarch with executioner are very deadly indeed.

30 infiltratring Scorpions would however probably cause a good amount of shock effect on most armies.

Btw, Striking Scorpion have WS4 and not WS5.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Grendel.360 — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:03:49 -0000

Well, there is such a thing as Codex power creep. At a recent tournament there were alot of Marine players as well as Chaos Daemon players and very few Eldar, Tau, Nid etc.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

VonKoeder — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 12:51:52 -0000

Personally I would like to play against more eldar. At this time the only guy with them around here doesn't need a army like them. i see alot of potential with them and think they could be great given the right player. I do think its a good thing that they are now require more thought.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

obsequiousmelon — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:13:11 -0000

Conrad you are a douche
Ok you are right about the anti tank prisms of wonder but you didn't need to be a dick about it! Grow up and chill please!

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Conrad — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 07:43:07 -0000

Thanks for pointing that out to me. Now you've given me the quote from the books I agree.

I noticed that GT actualy got a few things wrong now that I look over them.

For instance, they say you can't doom an enemy unit that is inside another transport if you're in a transport. There's nothing in the rules for Doom saying that you can't and doom doesn't need line of sight...so to me, it's a mistake on that front.

Have a check ouf of the GT rulepack on Warhammer World and you'll see what I mean.

http://warhammerworld.typep...

Section 187 is where the question of Eldrad using 2 psychic shooting attacks comes into play. They clarfiy that he can't target seperate units but they don't say he can't use the 2 powers. After your quoting, this to me is a huge oversight.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Molochi — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:21:31 -0000

@Conrad That army you're mentioning is more like 1750 than 1500. In 1750, I'll have points for Holofields. In 1500, Orkz won't have any anti-tank if they waste 800 points on Nob bikers.
Also, keep in mind. S7 ork shooting is laughable against armour 12. 5s to hits, 6s to pen. I'm so scared. And I really don't NEED objective grabbers if your model count is less than Grey Knights. I'll table you by turn with just sheer firepower.

...we aren't talking about Fire Dragons versus Hordes (Though, dragons breath flamers are nice...) we're talking about 30 Fire Dragons versus a Nob Biker squad.

And yes, Fusion Guns do have 12"
But as I demonstrated above, with Wave Serpents, that really doesn't matter. Wall o' Melta reduces Nobz to their constituent molecules.

Good catch on Eldrad. Thanks.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Molochi — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:15:54 -0000

Um, yes I am. They don't take them because the cover save is better. And FNP doesn't work because that Painboy is dead at that point.

Also, you are once again incorrect. The Warboss MUST move first as he is an IC when he charges and get in base contact with the closest model. Then the other two Nobz may move but MUST be in coherency with the warboss. So pretty much, my little knot of Dragons kicks the crap out of your boss.

Also, the other squad gets squished by the Fire Prism trio. Because I have fast skimmers and you just have bikes. You literally just have 20+ bikes. Not hard to outmaneuver you on any table.

Re: 40K Deep Thought: Eldar Power Level???

Jaradakar — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:25:50 -0000

Wrong.

Check the Eldar FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.c...

It clarifies which powers are psychic shooting attacks.

Then read the rules Psykers page 50 (40K rule book):

Psychic Shooting Attacks:

"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to use more than one psychic power per turn, he can use only one psychic shooting attack".

It's pretty crystal clear and totally spelled out, they made a mistake at GT, if that is the case.