As always, Warhammer 40,000 focuses on list-building to counter an enemy's list, rather than tactical manuever...
Anon
· 4 months ago
That is why you shouldn't see the person's list before you play. Then any specialization can become a serious liability.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
You obviously don't play, so you have no clue what you're talking about.
Play some games with good opponents and you'll soon see how idiotic your statement is.
TheDude
· 4 months ago
I own and play with 3 different 40k armies,,, I'm just dissappointed with how strategy-heavy 40k is, and how tactics-lite it is.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
Then you need to play against some better opponents.
TheRealChris
· 4 months ago
Or switch to a different wargame like Epic
TheDude
· 4 months ago
I did this one, and so did my opponents, the game system's much more adult.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
Well, of course they shoulf go together.
You should have a plan for your army/units so you know how to solve diffrent tasks with them.
If you dont know thoose tasks beforehand (enemy list/mission) it will have to cover more bases. If you know mission + enemy list you colud make a quite specialised list though.
Although it would be interesting to solve battlefield problems with unsuited units I´d say that would only be half the fun.
On another note I have something I have been thinking about for a while:
Pre-written army lists.
Say that you are going to participate in a tournament where you where going to play IG you had a choice of lets say 3 builds (already made by someone else)
Could be: infantry, Tanks, mechanised etc.
Same for other races such as space marines, orks
Would take that "listbuilding-craze" out of thoose settings, for theese ppl who defiantley dont like that
Digit
· 4 months ago
There is something to be said for both "take all comers" and "game specific lists." It's two different play styles with one focused on pre-planning, list building, and execution, the other with improvisation, surprise, and well-roundedness. Whichever you prefer or is prevalent in your area, people are doing a disservice to the game and the hobby by (a.) not trying the other play-style and (b.) bashing other people for preferring one over the other. The great thing about 40k is that both game types can be challenging and a ton of fun. In summary, quit bitching, it's a game.
James
· 4 months ago
Agreed, problems tend to arise when players have different expectations - one prefers all comers, the other game-specific lists, one likes tournament-style lists, the other a more backgroun-orientated approach - and don't discuss issues that might arise in advance.
In my group, what we tend to do is have all comers lists for pick up games and more specialised lists not for taking on specific armies but for having more unusual games - non-standard scenarios, Cityfights, unusual terrain or table set ups, campaigns, Apocalypse (obviously) and now Planetstrike.
Other groups have different approaches and that's fine, just talk things over beforehand so everyone knows where they stand.
Terran_Forge
· 4 months ago
In two practice games I faced a chimera, 2 Leman Russes BTs, a Vanquisher, 2 Basilisks and 3 Armored Sentinels and got a massacre result both times. Tanks are great, but as a support element, not an entire army (bar Armored Company) in my opinion. Foot-sloggin' guardsmen win the day when all is said and done (again, in my opinion).
DrBored
· 4 months ago
All in all, I don't see lists like that being much of a problem.
Well, at least not if you have flexibility in your army and can add/remove units whenever you see a list you need something different to deal with. Lists that utilize so many tanks would be rough for armies that are focused to deal with hoards, or that are balanced in terms of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle distribution, but so long as you keep a measure of flexibility, I don't see a problem.
I play Chaos Space Marines, and so it's rather easy to add some more anti-vehicle into the mix. Throw in a few more melta guns, perhaps even a squad of Havocs mounted in a Rhino to take advantage of the two firing points (impromptu Razorback) and suddenly those squadrons start allocating wounds and fall apart.
ctreleheb
· 4 months ago
In a tournament you don't have the option to tailor a list to take on a specific race/list/etc. You may play a horde one game and mega-mech the next. I believe in always playing with an all-comers list so that it makes you a better tactician/player not just a list writer. Its relatively easy to beat someone if you know what theyre using and tailor for it, on the other hand it is more fun to beat all other lists with only one list, imo.
fritzs
· 4 months ago
...but why would anyone want to fight using only with ugly boxlike tanks, when he/she could use tons of tiny plastic soldiers...? Tanks don't look very good on table IMO...
duder
· 4 months ago
Mech lists have been dominating 40k since 5th edition came out, so no one has changed their playstyle in our area went the IG codex came out.
FoxPhoenix135
· 4 months ago
In some ways it is more cost effective for new guards players to play mech lists. A few veteran squads, a whole mess of points-eating tanks, and you're ready to play. Consider this: how much does a squad of regular guardsmen cost, in both money and points, compared to a Leman Russ? You get many more points per dollar with the Russ. Heck, even the chimera is a bargain considering it is essentially a light tank itself. (I just got one for under 30 dollars shipped to AK.) Considering that GW cut the number of cadians to a box by half (while keeping the price the same), this trend is hardly surprising.
Luckily my Death Company has rending! I'll be using that a whole lot more with all the armor running around.
We can see that naked basic troop is 2x more expensive in IG than with SM, that transport are expensive like hell in both armies, and in general IG is more expensive to play than SM
mordiano
· 4 months ago
good comparison, could be called the
Points-per-pound index
Next logical step is to make averages to the races and present this info to newcomers to the hobby. Again, useful info.
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Love that, it should really be called that, and Guards have always been more expensive by the basic fact you had to buy at least twice the ammount of them :L
Spud
· 4 months ago
Wait. It was 20 guardsmen for $35 Now it's 10 guardsmen for $22
What do you mean?
Plus, I don't think the Mega Mech list is with squadrons. I think it's all single entries. 3 Hellhounds in seperate slots. 3 LR varients in seperate slots HQ & Troop Choices in Chimeras.
Think about it, a company command squad, and 2 infantry platoons is 7 possible chimeras at a minimum if they all mount up. You're looking at tossing 21 str 6 (multilaser) and 21 str 5 (heavy bolter) shots down range every turn and that doesn't including anything BUT the chimera's themselves. Yes, the str 6 wont touch a LR or a Monolith or the front of a BW or LR, but once you start moving about, and possibly out flanking. Well, now you're in for a treat!
BeastOfShadow
· 4 months ago
It has a squadron of something. Demolishers are Heavy and so are Hydras. Banewolfs are fast and so are Hellhounds. Definatly Squadrons in the list supplyed.
Morgan666
· 4 months ago
I have had great luck in three games with 3 Vendetta gunships, 3 Executioners, 1 Eradicator and all the infantry in Chimeras I can get. I thought I would really be into the Hydras but this is working just fine. I blew up a Stompa and beat the orks with it. I also destroyed a Dark Angel army in 5 turns and an infantry based Imerpial Guard army. Much of my infantry is veterans with flamers and shotguns.
Sorien
· 4 months ago
I took my pure mech Ork list (4 trukks, 2 battlewagons, 3 kans) against a heavy mech IG last night. He had 4 Chimeras, vanquisher w/pask, Demolisher, LRBT, 2 hellhounds and a 30 strong combined unit.
I lost my battlewagons early but I still had enough speed to get my powerklaws on the vehicles pretty easily...and they die fast that way. My opponent found that hellhounds are near useless vs Nobs, and that Snikrot can spoil anyone's day. In the end I had one trukk that did nothing but sat on an objective the entire game, another trukk running amok and all he had left was 1 immobilized chimera, 1 undamaged chimera and the LRBT..everything else was a smoking wreck and I had both objectives.
Simply put once my transports were dead, he just did not have enough firepower to deal with my troops effectively and I was still able to get across the board.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
I really, really hate squadrons in the IG. There only two exceptions IMO and those are Vendettas and Hydras. I don't want my precious tanks to be killed by glancing hits. Maybe, maybe maybe in ard boyz, but probably not, I could take some tank squadrons. I ran Mega Mech + deepstrikers in the last codex, and it worked well. Now... I'm not feeling it. Mech? Yes. ALL MECH?! I think not.
Ginge
· 4 months ago
I've tried various army styles since the new codex come out. The only pure "mech" list I've run is when I took a light mech army. It had 3 hellhounds, command in chimera, ogryns in chimera, 2 infantry platoons mounted in chimeras... All in all 11 chimera chassis vehicles.
Played against a chaos marine army and while he picked off some of them and promptly ate the contents in combat, I still had most of my army left at the end, while he only had a dread and a weaponless rhino. unfortunately they'd beaten one flank while i'd dominated the other, and it was a kill point mission. They'd scored enough that i needed to table them to win, and i couldn't get my troops from my successful flank to his remaining forces quickly enough to get the kill.
Personally I like turning up with a different army every week to keep my regular opponents on their toes. The week before my light mech list I took an entirely infantry list consisting of about 200 models :oP I haven't tried a heavy mech list yet (feels a bit wrong) but I probably will at some point just for laughs.
BrotherAtrox
· 4 months ago
With the "always hit on rear armor in CQC" rule, mechanized/armored lists are pretty much worthless.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
So you know of units that can instantly turn up in combat with every tank on the table all at the same time?
Lets not forget that a lot of the Guard tanks are now armour 11 on the rear.
Add to that the FACT that most armies need to cover 24" of table minimum to reach the tanks and you've got to stop and think.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
ever come across a jetbike seer council?
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Yeah...I use one....and for over 600 points a pop and the ability to ONLY target one tank at a time it's just not worth it any more.
True, you get re-roll able 4+ invun and Str 9 12" range as well as in combat.....but you need 2 turns to get into combat. During those 2 turns you're getting that 600 point, 11 man unit, pounded by at least 3 battle-cannons for the same points....and the heavy bolter sponsons to boot. You can only pass so many saves even with a re-roll.
whitestar
· 4 months ago
If you assault a vehicle squadron, however, hits are distributed like wounds. I was able to destroy 2 LRBT and stun the other when I assaulted a squadron with a single carnifex. Just find a nice juicy squadron for your seer council and assault them.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Yeah, they are distributed and I'm aware of that. I'm refering to the other squadron of tanks that's sat 12" away
Sorry I wasn't clear with regards to the single tank. I should have said tank or squadron.
I sat down last night and managed to write a 1500 pt IG list with 3 squadrons of 2 tanks. Along with 3 Chimera's. We're talking 2 Demolishers with all heavy bolter sponsons. 2 Battle tanks (as the come) and 2 Banewolf's with Multimeltas.
Me. I'd be placing the Demolishers and Battle tanks at opposite edges and the Banewolf's in the middle....dependant on game/opponent etc. But with a seer council on the board, that would be my tactic. Ain't no way they can get all 3 squadrons and survive.....they may not even reach them.
bufftastic
· 4 months ago
Squadrons must mantain coherency, of 4" between them... you can't scatter squadrons across the table. :(
That's not quite what was written about, but squadrons go down VERY quickly. Deathcopters especially. Scout turboboost within 12" of you, and if they have the first turn, you're losing tanks straight away...
Ginge
· 4 months ago
Vehicles within a squadron must maintain coherency, but the seperate squadrons are as seperate as any squad. Therefore he can put his demolisher squadron on his left flank, and his battle tank squadron on his right, and the banewolf squadron in the middle.
At least, that's how I read his deployment plan.
Conrad_Dakarn
· 4 months ago
Exactly
the David
· 4 months ago
"Conrad the ability to ONLY target one tank at a time it's just not worth it any more."
wrong look at page 34 ASSAULTING MULTIPLE ENEMY UNITS
Conrad
· 4 months ago
I'd like to see the moron who's going to line their tanks up nicely so I can get into assault with more than one squadron or tank.
Nate
· 4 months ago
When you put 20 tanks on the table, and your opponent can make a 34" line of strong assaulters, you don't have to be a moron to end up being multiply assaulted.
And when you save three out of every four battlecannon wounds, you're usually overjoyed to see the opponent has put his points into heavy weaponry, rather than into lasguns.
But seer councils are a pretty unique situation. You're not going to play one every game.
BrotherAtrox
· 4 months ago
First, "a lot" is a misleading term. Secondly, several of the rear armor 11 tanks are either not very good or are much more effective at close range. This puts them further inside the enemies' "action radius".
Armored Companies tend to suffer from a lack of numbers and a lack of fire saturation. The few guns they do have are very good, but they don't have the tools to win the battle of attrition that is typically 40K.
In contrast, many other armies can swarm the table with numbers. Especially Nids and Orks. With both of those armies, you'll get 1 (maybe 2) turns of shooting to break them so badly they can't deliver an assault. Like with Orks, your best chances are to target transports and other quick units like Koptas/Bikes.
Lastly, the 40K battlefield is rarely in favor of an armored company. The distances between the armies are short and the tanks rarely get to capitalize on their range. There also tends to be way too much cover/concealment in the terrain. It just doesn't work well.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
2 feet is not short when your average model moves 6" and if they forgo shooting a further POSSIBLE 6". You're talking at least 2 turns of shooting at hordes...and I say at least because you shouldn't be stupid enough to sit at 24" and wait for them to get to you. Demolishers against hordes that can back up 6" and still fire just shread those units. Add to that the 18" range of a Hellhound (not forgetting the template is 8" long) and you've got anti horde tanks that have a decent range.
You've already clarified that orks in transports you take down quick but at Armour 10, open topped, that's not a difficult job. And then you know the unit inside is only 10 man strong.
The cover/concealment works both ways, you can use that for your tanks to get cover saves and still fire your turrets if you're smart. And with so much "ignores cover" weaponry in the Guard list (the Hell hound as mentioned or the...I believe Collosus or Medusa can't remember) it doesn't mean much for a horde army. And in a horde army...what are you talking about for armour pen...I mean DECENT armour pen...a power fist per squad?
With the right deployment (castling into a corner) a decent Mega-mech list will have no problem destroying the closer CC unit before it reachs them and then moving onto the next to do the same job.
BrotherAtrox
· 4 months ago
Average model yes, but most assault armies aren't going to limit themselves to that 6" movement. Against an Ork Trukk list, you'll get 2 turns of shooting if you go first. The same works for lists that bring a lot of infiltrators, outflankers, or just 12" moving units.
Yes the transports are easy targets, however vehicle squadrons must fire at the same target. Ork armies can bring a lot of trukks to the table. They only need one to get through and (since your vehicles are in squadrons) one squad of Boyz can get in hand-to-hand all of them. Getting into CQC in 40K is very, very easy - especially with fast armies.
They don't need decent armor penetration capabilities, they can swarm the AV10 tanks in CQC. We don't even have to consider powerfists/claws/exarchs/grenades/etc.
Again - "the closer CC unit" implies some sort of dedicated tank hunters like Fire Dragons. However that level of specialization isn't necessary - you just flood the tanks with more infantry than they can kill.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
You're forgetting that those "boys" are needing 4+ to hit, cause damned if I'd sit the tank still the turn before I knew you'd be in combat. I'd back it up 6". And they they're needing 6's to get glancing hits. The odds are against you.
Hell....if I knew you'd be in combat next turn, I'd forgo shooting and back up 6"+D6" to make you hit on 6's.
Not to forget that you're talking about assaulting one squadron of what would be 2 tanks. There's going to be those Hellhounds sitting there to roast your boys the moment they're out of those trucks. Sure, I can't take down every truck you can bring to the fold. But points for points I could probably take all but 1 or 2 and thus make your army come at me piece-meal, all the time destroying the closest units.
I get what you're saying and can see it could work...but I don't see how against a decent mega-mech list.
slovak
· 4 months ago
Your argument is certainly valid, but it's based on the premise that the tanks can afford to sit still, or even move backwards. 5th edition mostly requires that we claim and contest objectives, it's not the line up and shoot battles of 3rd and 4th.
In my experience it's not enough to kill the enemy that you can see in this latest version of the game, it's about challenging those units that your opponent doesn't want you to see, because even if that's a small fraction of his forces that is all he's going to need to win the game.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
True. But when you need only hold 2 objectives and contest 1 to draw a game and contest 2 to win in the most extreme of missions, it's not hard to make sure you can sit still.
With 4 or more counters, you get to place 2 of them and you can make sure that you get them close to deployment zones (right on the edge in fact) by putting them 12" from both edges (right in the corner).
This means your troops units in Chimera's (even if you only take 2) can stay in relative safety for some time before moving out onto the objective late in the game. Hell, you can even have them shooting from the hatch with Auto-cannons/Grenade launchers etc if you want more firepower.
The only other mission type involves contesting your opponents objective whilst holding your own. This is more tricky but I'd say a couple of hellhounds (preferably Banewolf's) used fast and hard (with a Chimera in support maybe) from turn 3 onwards to advance on the opponents objective....should do the job if you've been pounding from range to start with.
In Kill points....you can afford to stand and shoot.
khanaris
· 4 months ago
Well, every Ork Boy is likely to get 4 attacks on the charge. So the odds really aren't against them if you haven't thinned them out first. Even a Trukk Mob is centered around getting 44 attacks, hit with 22, and glancing with 3 or 4 of them. And the Power Klaw should hit with 2 and likely Pen with both. You likely won't be able to fire the next turn, and you may end up being auto-hit in your own turn if you can't shoot or assault the Boyz off with someone else.
Swarming is a problem now. For heavily-mechanized lists that don't revolve around Land Raiders, you have to be able to support the vehicles in front. And Squadrons may be more trouble than they are worth.
soundgear
· 4 months ago
How are you backing up 6"+D6" in a corner? I assume that terrain and LOS would be an issue if you start trying to retreat. And how would you handle my drop pod army? Once the termies get in your midst, what is the solution for trying to chew through their armor and avoid their fists & t-hammers?
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Demolishers....easy question to answer. They're dead the turn they arrive with 2 demolishers smashing them.
And if I'm in a corner...I've likely made the ork player take 3 turns to reach my tanks. In 1500 I've written out a list with 4 large blasts at high strength low AP, 14 Heavy bolters and 9 grenade launchers. If the squads are anywhere near full strength when they reach me...I deserve to loose.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Armour pen in horde armies? Tank Busta Bombz anyone? 2D6+8?
Bluephoenix
· 4 months ago
armor 11 on the rear? I'd like a copy of whatever book it is you're using as mine says different.
only the demolisher chassis is rear 11, everything else LR and chimera based is rear armor 10.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
3 vehicles out of 6 LR have armour 11 on the rear. And those are some pretty decent options in terms of weaponry with armour 11 on the rear.
5 plasma cannons!
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Have you still got the old codex :L
DJL
· 4 months ago
There are options to get first turn charges as well. I run 2 squadrons of 2 deffkoptas with power claw in my speed freeks, and they either take all the focus off my trukks with their tasty 3+ turboboost in the scout move, or they kill tanks.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
Wow, you must be joking.
Good luck getting anywhere near those tanks since they'll be shooting you the whole way in, and moving too to keep you from getting close.
There's a reason nobody runs foot armies any more.
BrotherAtrox
· 4 months ago
I think you must be confusing 40K for some other game where armies have lots of room to maneuver.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
If you can't maneuver, you must be playing a slow and crappy footslogging army or using a 3'x3' board.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Or over loading the board with scenery...which is just cheap
For the best example of how much terrain to use, look at the UK GT standard of terrain. You get about 5-6 pieces of terrain per board on average...sometimes more, sometimes less.
You do get enough to run through and around etc but never enough to block line of sight......and with the NEW line of sight rules...terrain ain't stopping me shooting you anyway.
BrotherAtrox
· 4 months ago
Maybe it's an American thing? Or a Southeast American thing? Tables here have a lot of terrain on them.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Maybe...I know that here we consider Warhammer World to be a benchmark for the amount of scenery.
If you want an idea of what kind of scenery might be on a battlefield....have a look at what's left after a planetstrike game for an idea of what's been destroyed. The latest WD has a nice report.
AoM
· 4 months ago
It's always amusing to see everyone clamoring for bombed out buildings and other urban wrecked terrain for the grimdark, but them only placing 2 or 3 on a 4x6 table, plus a hill or two. If it was only 2 tiny buildings in the middle of a field, why the heck were they bombed from above before the battle started taking place? In a city, it makes sense.
Then again, the city leads to the denser terrain you're used to playing with (and what I prefer as well). Seeing two nicely painted armies battling each other on an open field is not anywhere near as exciting as seeing the same armies fighting each other with a reasonable mix of terrain.
Of course, this has nothing to do with mech lists.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
I go with the 25% in the rule book. People are surprised at how much terrain 25% really is.
My FLGS and a lot of stores don't seem to grasp this, our last tourney had like 2 buildings and a hill for each table. This isn't Fantasy guys!
Kauyon'la
· 4 months ago
Mega Mech Army List:
Command Squad; 3 Flamers, Fleet Officer, Commander w/ Power Weapon & Melta Bombs, Chimera w/ Extra Armor
Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor and HK Missle Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor and HK Missle Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor
Yeah to most anyone that seems a pretty frightening prospect. Played effectively it would be too but against a competent general this army could be eaten piecemeal. A all-comers list from any army(except maybe Tyranids(they have trouble with normal mech...)) really wouldn't have too much problems against this army with proper protection of your own units and controlled target priority to eliminate the major threats and disrupt their lines.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Nice list. At 2500 points an all comer list could probably hold its own if it was carefully played....but then...A smart general could use this list and decimate ALL comers if they played it right.
Can I ask as to why no Banewolf's?
With Creed, they can scout down the battlefield before first turn and pop smoke if need be. Those AP3 wounds on 4+ weapons are idea for taking out the anti-tank units that your enemy has.
Just to mention, as well, that an all comers list won't have anti-tank scattered into every unit. You can quite easily take out the biggest tank hunting units turn 1 and 2 and then sit back and shred the rest of the army knowing that there's little threat to your bigger tanks.
The more I look at this list and the number of vehicles along with the fact that most are armour 12 or more, the most I'm trying to work out how my Marines could beat it without kitting out specially to deal with it.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
What do you do against Land Raiders? Vanquishers suck and your squadron of Devil Dogs are the only real threat.
Stick heavy flamers on all your vehicles to threaten hordes (much better than that dinky hull lascannon) and give your Vets meltas.
Run Demolishers to pop AV14, Eradicators to wipe out infantry in cover or piling out of their rides, or Executioners to mess up heavy infantry.
Devil Dogs are great, Vendettas too.
Hydras are solid.
A couple PBS is like having another Battle tank without worrying about squadron rules.
Madjob
· 4 months ago
"Vanquishers suck and your squadron of Devil Dogs are the only real threat."
Sticking Pask in one (as he did) goes a long way to making a Vanquisher very effective, essentially turning the main gun into a long-range melta (thanks to Pask's Crack Shot) that doesn't need half range to roll 2 dice if it stays still.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
At BS4 and for how many points? It's not even AP1.
Madjob
· 4 months ago
220 pts for a Pask Vanquisher with a hull Lascannon.
And as I said, Crack Shot essentially turns it into a long range melta, because it adds +1 when rolling on the damage table against vehicles - the same thing AP1 does.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
Still BS4 on a static platform, not worth all those points. Real meltas, Demolishers, Medusas, and Manticores all perform better.
slinky
· 4 months ago
What do you mean static? He can move up to 6 inches and still fire both weapons.
Col.Angus
· 4 months ago
I believe to use Pask's Crackshot Rule the tank must remain stationary during its movement phase.
You move it and Pask is just an expensive passenger for that turn.
slinky
· 4 months ago
I re-read the unit entry and you are correct,
But even so, a BS4 Lascannon/Vanquisher shot is nothing to sneeze at. Even without the +1 on on the damage table your chances of disabling a Land Raider are pretty good.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Lets not forget that every ordnance weapon uses 2D6 for armour pen and lets you pick one of the dice.
Though I would stick some multimeltas on those Hellhounds
Ginge
· 4 months ago
Str 8 ordnance with 2 dice pick the highest is laughed off by Land Raiders most times.
Str 8 with two dice combined like the Vanquisher does, on the other hand...
Parcival
· 4 months ago
I agree that the rise of tanks is connected with the 5th Edition and not necessarily with the new Guard Codex.
Either way, as a Blood Angels player I have a hard time with tanks as I play mostly Jump Pack heavy lists. My Jump Packers sure do have Power Weapons to kill tanks, but first they have to get through the hail of fire and once they popped the tank, its passengers either charging or rapid firing them in the next turn are a problem.
The best and more or less only good Blood Angels unit for tank killing is the simple Attack Bike with Multimelta. For 50 points, it easily earns its points back. It just moves behind the cover of the overcharged Rhinos and swings out when it's in range to fire the Multimelta.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
...or baal Predators. I have lost 3 russ to those little buggers this month. They are a top target priority for me now, but they were then too. Harker melta vets are to the rescue when they can I guess. I can't wait for codex: blood angels to go the way of codex: Kroot mercs.
Parcival
· 4 months ago
Well, the Baal predator is a strong build, that's true, and it can take out infantry as well as tanks.
However, for my taste it's a bit too random to take out tanks. The Assault Canon's strength of 6 means it has a 50% chance to glance a tank's back armor of 10, but most of the time I am facing the front armor, of course. Rolling the extra D3 for rending is nice, but those necessary 6s just don't happen frequently enough.
In my last game I wasn't able to kill a single Guard tank while mine got all killed. I had only one Attach Bike - that's why I am painting 4 more now. ;-)
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
How many baals are you running? probably not enough... Statistically they do quite well against armor 14, all things considered... and they do it at range. Do like the pro's do, microwave your dice with the 1's pointed up. you're Baal predators will do much better.
Parcival
· 4 months ago
I am running two Baal Predators in my tank lists.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
Try 3, it works. Go big or go home. And microwave those dice 1 side up.
TSINI
· 4 months ago
microwaving dice?
are they tastier hot?
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Well, I found smothering them in Monterrey Jack tends to really help cut down on the plastic-y taste. The microwaving just makes them softer so they dont hurt on the way down.
Apparently its some technique where the dice melts a bit and weighs down the one side so it has a higher chance of rolling whats on its opposite side, as dice rely on being perfectly weighted to roll properly.
TSINI
· 4 months ago
hmm, i see the idea, although i'd have thought the dice would land weighted side down
and i have to say, weighting dice loses its point if your opponent shares your dice
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Aye, in theory gravity would pull the plastic downwards as it melts so the "bottom" of the dice would land down more, so if you put it 1 side up, it'd roll 1's more often. I dont fully understand their logic up there, but hey, maybe they get their chuckles by watching fools melt themselves with plasma.
And yes, it does tend to lose its point, and get oddly suspicious when your opponent says "dont use that dice, use this one instead, that's my "lucky die"
khanaris
· 4 months ago
It is counter-intuitive, but because they are rolled rather than dropped into a suspension, the heavy side seems to be more likely to end up on top than on the bottom.
But it is a stupid way to cheat. A weighted die can not be "spun" normally. So it is pretty easy to prove that you have been cheating if anyone ever tests you.
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Umm sorry to be nieve, but how do Baal Preadators kill tanks?? they aren't that hot with anti tank, as the Assault cannon has bean wrecked in 5th and Genestealers but that is a diffrent matter :(
starwoof
· 4 months ago
I friggin' hate baal predators. I've lost my land raider to concentrated ass cannon fire more times than I care to remember.
<-- also wants blood angels to go the way of kroot mercs. :D
TSINI
· 4 months ago
nobody wants to die from concentrated ass cannon fire
Conrad
· 4 months ago
-=Has a sudden image of Memphiston bending over and rockets coming out of his ass=-
Ben
· 4 months ago
"Aye, and if he was here, he'd consume the anglish with lightning from his eyes and bolts of fire from his arse"
name that flick
Drew_Da_Destroya
· 4 months ago
Braveheart!
faultie
· 4 months ago
Why all the hate on Kroot mercs? Was every single squad having 4x S8 Eviscerator attacks so bad? :)
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Yes It was, it really was, Kroots and Eviscerators?? aye??
faultie
· 4 months ago
Hey, it's not like they have lascannons. At best, they are infiltrating 18+d6 away, and and then fleeting 2d6(choose highest). Come on. :P
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Lol you can't choose highest with fleeting :L
faultie
· 4 months ago
Lol you can with Kroot Mercs using a Surefoot Charm. *rolls eyes*
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Mech armies have been something of a concern for me over the recent months thanks to some of the nice juicy rules that you can get from them.
The introduction of Predators for less than 100 points a pop WITH sponsons and Dreadnoughts for only 120 points was the first warning sign that I had. Marine lists started coming out with 2 predators, a Land Raider, 6 land speeders and 3 dreadnoughts AND still enough points for their troops.
This meant armies started needing tank busting weapons in more than 2 or 3 units. I used to have 2 specialised fast units to deal with tanks. My Marine Bikes had Melta-bombs (which they're now removed) coupled with Skilled Rider and my Devastators would get the 4 missile launchers with Tank Hunters.
With the loss of the traits, I had to start improvising up some new anti-tank for my Marines and found it was quite difficult to get anything reliable AND cheap for tank busting. Sure, everyone's got Krak grenades these days but it's getting the guys in on those tanks before getting shot to hell. I'm working on a Meltagun/dual powerfist fix for the list with Sternguard and Razorbacks with Assault Cannons....but I'm finding that I'm spending a shed load of points on what is, effectively, only 7 models.
I've come up with the same problem for my Chaos too. Without Obliteraters, you're reduced to a few options for your tank busting and these tend to be other vehicles which can get quite pricey when you start to kit them out.
I'm a player who likes to theme his armies. My Marines all have MkVI armour and don't use Plasma or Lascannon tech due to their history (it's complex but they're survivors of Istavan IV and other Heresy battles but feel they've failed the emperor and won't re-join the Imperium until they can kneel before him in person and ask for forgiveness....that's the short version). This means they haven't been able to maintain the sensative lenses of the Lascannons and their Plasma has long since broken down. It also means that the armies are mainly scout from recruiting from worlds to replenish their small numbers. But with a limited number of Power Armour suits available, not everyone can be a marine.
You get the idea anyways.....Under the old Marines, I could play with the codex and get myself a REALY cool list that worked for them and still had a good punch for anti-armour. Now I'm having to take Lascannons on my devastators and call them "Vengence missile launchers" just so I can deal some damage to Mech lists.
The only exception I have in my armies is my Eldar. I'm currently running a list where EVERY unit can punch through armour 14 AND can close down on the enemy vehicles quickly. The quick list is:
2 Prisms, 2x2 squads of Vypers with missile launchers and cannons, 2 squads of 6 jetbikes with Warlocks, spear, embolden and 2 cannons each, another squad of 4 with warlock, enhance and cannon accompanied by a Farseer on bike with spear and an Autarch on bit with Fusion gun and power weapon.
Every unit can bring the beat down on a tank.....and I fear that's the way lists are going to have to go to continue to compete in a 40k tournament style scene.
Putting Guard aside, I've noticed that all the new Codex's have cheap transports and vehicle options that are cheap IF you don't kit them out too heavily. True, your "bare bones" tanks aren't taking extra armour or extra weaponry but when you've got only a few units here and there on the board capable of really punching through your armour from range, you don't need to kit out.
Predators are worried about nothing less than Str 7 weaponary, which there isn't a huge amount that has a good range. Rhinos and Razorbacks are amour 11, yes, but that means they draw at least 1 anti-tank weapon away from the rest of your tanks before they stop and for the points, you're not too bothered if it's blown away as long as it gets your troops further up the battlefield faster. I could go on but I'm sure you're all capable of looking in your codexs as the vehicles and working out what can do what.
So yeah....Mech lists are becoming more common and with the new Guard, I've started coming up against lists with 4 or more front armour 14 vehicles in them. How the HELL do you take out FOUR armour 14 vehicles quickly??? Especially when they're pounding you from range with high strength, low AP, large blast, pinning weaponary?? My new Eldar list is an attempt to do this but to still deal with horde and the between armies.
What I'd like to see is some lists that people have come up with that give them plenty of "anti 14" weapons but can still cope with other types of army. Has anyone managed to pull this for Daemons and not take anything Discs or Flamers? Can you get Marine lists that can cope with 4 armour 14 vehicles and not get pounded from long range by those battle cannons?? Is it possible to bring to the fold a RELIABLE chaos army which can close on those tanks and take them down without using Obliteraters.
Surely we've not been reduced to taking one specific type of unit in each of our armies just to ensure we can take down these heavy vehicles. Surely we can do without our flamers/discs, obliteraters etc. Is there a CHEAP anti tank option available to combat these CHEAP tanks???
Anyone?
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
I have seen the Mega Mech army and I'm a BELIEVER!
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
IG used to deepstrike. QQ I miss that. I'd happily trade off this crappy new dex for a faq that fixed the KP problem. QQ
That aside your short answer is yes and no. I am starting a DE army right now because of this metagame shift. Aside from the Dark Eldar and the wretched weeaboo tau, who I will never play, there is very little in the way of cheap long range anti tank. Well, without deep striking, but that is far from reliable. Maybe I'm just reacting too quickly to your post... I probably know more than I'm letting on here but I can't remember what it is right now.
Don
· 4 months ago
The new guard deepstrike also...vendettas/valkyries can deepstrike...and there are slots for 9 of them.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
yeah... not deepstriking an F-Heug model like a vendetta until it get's faqd to act like a drop pod thanks.
khanaris
· 4 months ago
It sounds like you are whining a bit, but the Tau don't have any cheap long range anti-tank. Railguns are invariably expensive, particularly compared with the long-range options of most armies.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
and also the Tau are not 'wretched' and 'weeaboo', whatever the hell that means. In fact, the Tau friggin' rule. Yeah, they need a new codex, but there are a bunch of armies who could use a new book to keep up with the Jonses right now...and the Guard....and the Orks and Marines...... But, hey. Watch what you say about the Tau, those are my boys!(and Shadowsun is a Bad*ss B*tch) And they'll shoot the crap outta the Dark Eldar, please ask a Dark Eldar player about that if you get a chance ;) Good luck with those 'wretched' DE models. No coincidence that your starting a DE army when the new 'Dex is right around the corner? I'm sure they'll be the new cheese for a while...sounds slightly 'weeaboo' if you ask me. I'd go on, but Kung Fu Hustler was such a great movie. The part with the snakes and throwing of the knives was just the funniest sh*t ever...when he put that knife back in the dude's arm...lol...
Charlie
· 4 months ago
Scout Bikers.
I have played 2 games with them, and they are pretty awesome sauce. You can either scout or outflank w/ them, whichever is more convenient. I run 3x squads of 4, with three grenade launchers and melta bombs on the sergeant, and cluster mines.
Against anything w/ rear armor 10, these guys rule. They have 6(!) strength 6 shots (definitely put one of the grenade launchers with the sergeant) on the way in, then 3 krak grenades and a melta bomb. Meanwhile, their cluster mines are detonating on a troops choice somewhere and doing a hell of a lot of damage.
The great thing is how versatile they are. You can outflank for the rear/side armor, and wail on it w/ S6 shooting/ assault, or if you are up against hordes, you deploy the cluster mines in areas they have to go through and then blow holes in them with the grenade launchers.
I run an all bike army though- with a plasma command squad and three maxed melta troop bikers, so I'm pushing the enemy tanks pretty far back w/ that alone. Right into outflank range for my lowly, unintimidating scout bikers.
Snyderson
· 4 months ago
Scout Bikers are way too overpowered. If you go first you can take out the most threatening enemy tanks without any problem; Infiltration + 24" scout move + 12" normal move + 6" charge gets you anywhere on the table - add a meltabomb and watch anything get blown to pieces.
Our group of gamers agreed on not using them in "normal" games.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
I don't see how they're overpowered as one hit wonders....for their points they have odds of taking out one thing before getting their ass handed to them. They're only armour 4+ and T5 and bolter fire is enough to take down small squads.
In response to yourself Charlie, the outflanking is great and I use it myself with my own scout bikers....but with the Master of the Fleet and astropath, you just can't pull it off against an IG list without some serious luck.
A bike list is a nice way to go with Marines...but I think point for point it's too much. You can't get a lot of bacon from your piggie and with Str 8 AP large blasts....your bacon is toasted black before you get it into the sandwich.
I get the list and I like it....but the range is limited and the scout bikers are taken out of the equation with the right IG command squad.
Snyderson
· 4 months ago
If you take only 3 Scout Bikers, give the Srgt. a melta bomb and move them correctly its an auto glance on AV10 tanks on turn one when rolling snake eyes - everything else is a penetrating hit. This for under 100Pts is a slap in the face.
Ej
· 4 months ago
Problems with this: It requires that you go first for a stationary tank. It also leaves your scout bikers exposed. Great, 100 pts just killed 155 pts. That's not a good ration for marines.
Snyderson
· 4 months ago
Yup, that's right, you need to go first. But if you are not setting up and going first you can simply outflank or take the scout move to draw them back. and 3 Scouts with a melta bomb is 75pts and killing a 150pts tank or even a more expensive one is definately worth it.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
Then don't deploy your tanks so far forward, or stick infantry around them to block their assault.
Scout Bikes are not very killy and quite easy to take down.
Anon
· 4 months ago
I think the wording for scout bikers says that only bikers can take the grenade launcher, not the sergeant.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
I believe it's any model...but without the codex, I couldn't confirm/deny and I ain't going downstairs to pull it out the rack....I'm feeling too lazy
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
Melta stops AV14, so bring lots of it. Teleporting Sternguard, drop podding units, Bikes, Speeders, and so on. To deal with their lighter vehicles, autocannon and missile launchers work fine. Follow up with flamers to mess up infantry.
Your marines can work just fine without lascannons and plasma, I don't find them effective at all in 5th anyway. It's all about the meltas and flamers.
As for Daemons, they fold to AV14 and mech in general. It's a problem with the army, but your best bet is massed Bolts and MCs.
Chaos needs to run lots of melta and Oblits.
Qasi
· 4 months ago
Screamers of Tzeentch work well for daemons. I run three squads of three.
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
So, melta bombs hitting on 6's is good now?
Stop the presses.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
I did say:
"Surely we can do without our flamers/discs, obliteraters etc. Is there a CHEAP anti tank option available to combat these CHEAP tanks???"
Screamers are the discs I was referring to....sorry, old school name.
And again, Obliterators have been brought up.
Running melta heavy lists does work but they rely on getting in close as do flamers.
What I'm asking for is a cheap LONG range option to counter the IG with their long range tanks which can tank down anything on the board (almost). Even the basic battle tank is 150 with a battle cannon that ranges the entire field (almost) has Str 8 AP3 large blast and rolls 2D6, picking the highest, for armour pen.
What do the other armies have for the equivalent points or less that can count as/do the same job as these weapons?
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
When I get angry at tanks, I bring a squad of 3 Broadsides. 2+ save/4+ invul, 2 wounds each (8 wounds in squad w/2 shield drones) And their lovely Railguns-Str10/AP 1-twin linked. They're ultra survivable-it takes a LOT of firepower to take them out. Keep 'em in the middle of the board, moving foward side by side with Crisis teams, Hammerheads or Kroot for screening. With a 10 point upgrade-included in the cost above, they can move 'slow and purposeful' and still shoot. (Advanced Stabilization) 2 squads-or 3 squads if your really, really pissed off at tanks, will solve most tank infestation problems. Put 'em in reserve, if your worried about turn one. They have a 72 inch range, so just walk 'em on and do what I call 'The Cursor' - Point. Click. Delete. Tank (or Tanks) gone. They murder the heck outta vehicles, and are the best thing I've found for dealing with heavy armor at range. Close up, fusion blasters..er, I mean Melta's are what's up. Be sure to scatter some throughout your list if you can. If you feel cheap, a single Broadside is 70 (!) points- that's pretty darn cheap. I just like the cool upgrades on mine. I also like bringing them in squads of 3 >:)
Drew_Da_Destroya
· 4 months ago
Well, my main anti-tank option is the Bikerboss with a Klaw... 18" is pretty long range for a melee attack!
Other than that.... Well, outflanking Deffkoptas with Rokkits and Buzzsaws? I guess you could use Zappguns if you've got a thing for self-punishment. Rokkit spam will pretty much get you nowhere hitting the front armor.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
Im assembling a combined mordian (Guradsmen)/steel legion(Veterans) army:
I was putting together this list to play a 1000p game at my local GW:
Cmnd 4 meltaguns Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
Veterans 3 Meltaguns Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
Veterans 3 plasmaguns 1 plasma pistol Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
2 Demolishers, plasma cannons, lascannons
1 scout Sentinel Autocannon, hunterkiller (For flanking and hitting side armour)
I plan to keep advancing blazing away with the chimeras, and finaly attacking with meltas and hvy flamers.
The demolishers since the tables are quite small.
Plasmas because the always present marines/MEQ
Only worry is that the sentinel will get picked apart before it can do anything
I played one of thoose infamous armoured company lists back in the days.
That was one of the most booring and waste of time things i done in a long while.
Since the lemans couldnt move my whole gaming experience was putting out pie-plates on hapless enemy squads.
This new build I hope will be much more dynamic, fun to play, and able to grab objectives
weeble1000
· 4 months ago
I've found that loading up on special weapons with command squads can lead to a lot of your investment getting popped before you can use them. With no other models, you end up having to kill off the special weapons. But sheltering the squad in a transport is a good way to counter that.
I'm also not a huge fan of sponsons on Russes to begin with, but I especially don't like the plasma cannon sponsons on a demolisher. The tank costs a lot already, compared to a battle tank, and if the tank is moving, those sponsons never see much action. I like to use my tanks pretty aggressively, but rear armor 11 and the short range of a demolisher means that I'm either moving it into range or tank shocking enemy infantry.
With 80 points invested in the sponsons alone, you could give your sentinel a friend or just about afford an infantry platoon, and that would give you three more units to grab objectives, shield your tanks, and draw fire.
With the low point cost in the sentinel, it might even be worth it just to draw fire. Your opponent can either ignore it and get an HK in his flank, or deal with it and blow at least one turn of a unit's shooting, and maybe more.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
I've found that loading up on special weapons with command squads can lead to a lot of your investment getting popped before you can use them. With no other models, you end up having to kill off the special weapons. But sheltering the squad in a transport is a good way to counter that.
ACTUALLY I PLAN TO FIRE MOST OF THEM FROM THE SAFETY OF INSIDE THE CHIMERAS. OF COURSE, ILL ALLSO TAKE THE OPPERTUNITY TO EXIT IT AND GIVE THE ORDER TO TWIN-LINK THOOSE MELTAS WHEN A REALY GOOD OPPORTUNITY ARRISES
I'm also not a huge fan of sponsons on Russes to begin with, but I especially don't like the plasma cannon sponsons on a demolisher. The tank costs a lot already, compared to a battle tank, and if the tank is moving, those sponsons never see much action. I like to use my tanks pretty aggressively, but rear armor 11 and the short range of a demolisher means that I'm either moving it into range or tank shocking enemy infantry.
HMMM... I LIKE THE PLASMA IN GENERAL FOR ALL THOOSE MEQ. BUT I SEE YOUR POINT, NEEDS THINKING
With 80 points invested in the sponsons alone, you could give your sentinel a friend or just about afford an infantry platoon, and that would give you three more units to grab objectives, shield your tanks, and draw fire.
WELL, AN INFANTRY PLATOON IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. WHY? WELL THE POINT OF THE LIST IS TO RENDER A LOT OF YOUR OPPONENTS WEAPONS USLESS: BOLTERS, LASGUNS, LINE INFANTRY WEAPONS. IF I GIVE THEM JUST ONE TARGET (LIKE INFANTRY) THAT TARGET WILL GET REALY POUNDED AL ON ITS LONESOME.
IN FACT, THATS WHY IM CONSIDERING DROPPING TO MELTAGUNS FROM THE CMND SQ AND UPPGRADING THE SCOUT SENTINEL TO AN ARMOURED ONE. THEN IT WILL BE AV12 MINIMUM ALL THE WAY!!
With the low point cost in the sentinel, it might even be worth it just to draw fire. Your opponent can either ignore it and get an HK in his flank, or deal with it and blow at least one turn of a unit's shooting, and maybe more.
Daddy
· 4 months ago
+++ Would you consider Ravenwing "Mech"? I've played that army since I started playing 40k,
AbusePuppy
· 4 months ago
Not strictly, since it utilizes a lot of bikes, which don't actually use the vehicle rules. Many of the weapons effective against mech armies (Autocannons, etc) work well against RW, though.
AbusePuppy
· 4 months ago
Tau can also make a pretty bizarre all-mech list, even more so than their usual version. To white:
Shas'o, FB, MP, MT
6 FW, Devilfish+DP (x5)
5 Piranhas w/DP, 2 w/FB+TL (x3)
Hammerhead w/Railgun, DP, MT, BCs (x3)
That's 23 skimmer hulls on the table, all of them getting constant 4+ cover saves against everything. It might be advantageous to give the commander a Positional Relay so the list can play reserves games against armies that warrant it (Demons, drop pods, etc), but I haven't really tested the list, since I don't have that many Piranhas laying around. Converting a railhead to a Skyray and adding some Seeker missiles to the Piranhas or Devilfish would also be an option to shore up against other mech armies, though it weakens you against Land Raiders and Monoliths.
Bojesphob
· 4 months ago
If I was able to make it to an 'Ard Boyz (some stuff came up that doesn't allow it), I was thinking about using a list with 2 Valkyries, an Eradicator, a Vindicator, then take an Inquisitor Lord with a Land Raider for transport! A little bit of overkill, I know, alas it won't be able to happen for this year's 'Ard Boyz.. :(
I don't know how I, personally would deal with this list, but I know that it would be able to go up against a lot of stuff and come out well. I guess if an opponent had a lot of lascannons, it would nullify the benefit of having the Land Raider.
Matt
· 4 months ago
At my last tournament I played against a guard player using 11 chimeras, medusa, 2 hydras and 1 demolisher. It was a pain in the ass to be honest. I'm one of those people who runs an all comers list but still competative. Even with Vulkan and 7 melta weapons and 2 ironclads I simply could not deal with the amount of vehicle spam. Hitting 89% of the time Pinning 95% of the time (depending on armour) Killing 50% of the time (ap1)
Every melta is killing something 42.275% of the time. If they have cover its even worse.
Before that game I didn't think much of his list but after seeing the amount of str 5 templates, str 6 and 7 shooting and str 10 large blasts. not to mention creed making 10 guys with lasguns fearless and charging my dreads makeing them useless. It wasn't a very fun game. He still only had a minor victory in the tourny scored mission. (15pts to 10pts) I don't like when an oponents list can make you feel helpless and yet I watch them play and see 2 or 3 mistakes a turn the player is making but because statistically I can only kill 2 vehicles a turn and the 10 children inside. In objective matches It almost seems unfair. (this tournament didn't have 1 kill point mission... one had victory points. Maybe this is why I had a bad taste in my mouth) I understand now why kill points balance 5th ed. Victory points after I kill a 10 man squad and chimera nets me 105 points. Sure I could replace all my flamers and go all melta but then I would get owned by any good nid or ork player. I don't think that taking lots of fancy vehicles in the new IG codex is really that great. If you take 6 + chimeras accompanied with other strong vehicles you can have a armour spam list from hell where good tactics take a back seat to "deal with all this crap" And if a list like this was handled by a skilled player. I see it as a huge up hill climb for any non DE army.
ivarrgwen
· 4 months ago
My 'ard boyz list will start with a 55 man platoon in Chimeras and a second 55man platoon in vendettas. Backed with some conscripts and a decent HQ on the ground...still leaves points for a couple of LR variants.
Should be 14 tanks 170 plus troops...plenty of scoring units....option to deepstrike/outflank a good bit of the army and more than enough shooting to deal with hoards...I have had great success with conscripts vs ork mobs...throw 100 or more shots at any unit and you should do OK.
Tol
· 4 months ago
Such an army would fear it´s flanks, front & rear.
So they will be placed as a big ball of tanks...
Just one Manticore or Marinelord... no good.
Some might have a large output, but every "dead tank" too early in the game will be a great pain.
But don´t hesistate trying.
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
I think that Mech lists all have one thing that most opponents don't consider: you don't need Melta weapons to beat them.
Mech lists do not load on AV 14 vehicles... you do need some Melta weapons to fight the 1-2 LRs or such, but in general they will load up on lots and lots of AR 12 vehicles. AR 10 on the side, for Chimeras.
To counter this, and as good units in general, I like to see more counter lists that have more units capable of breaking transports, even if they aren't necessarily heavy-tank hunters. More autocannons, especially on mobile platforms like Dreadnaughts that can move forwards and command a flank, while taking shots at a Chimera's side AR 10. ACs cost about as much as a MM, but start shooting at 48", which means that you can keep the Dread in cover for safety, and with two of them on opposite sides you're threatening many enemy tanks.
If they form a tank line you do need some Melta weapons to break the front armor (or just more ACs, MLs, and LCs, they can go through AR 12) of a transport or two, then you start shooting at the sides of the exposed vehicles. As long as they form a line, they can't prevent you from encircling them to get the side shots. A squadron can turn its vehicles to face a semicircle, so it's harder to flank squadrons, but transports generally can't get into squadrons.
Also, if dealing with too many target, we need to consider putting anti-tank, even light anti-tank, on more units. Instead of running a dedicated anti-Horde Plague Marines with 2 Flamers, I run 2 Meltas and put a single combi-Flamer shot with the Champion. It's less effective against horde armies, but having more units that can threaten tanks and MCs is better than having a single unit of 4 MultiMeltas, that can only destroy a single 50 point transport per turn.
Oh, and remember this: Death or Glory is auto-hit. So give your Veteran Sergeant a meltabomb, and he'll auto-hit with it when the unit is Tank Shocked, rather than needing a 6 to hit like he would when assaulting.
Thatguy
· 4 months ago
I play as DE. I love facing heavy mech armies. havent lost a game yet against heavy mech. Ive drawn, but no losses. go lance spam
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
I agree... :)
Been rocking DE for over a decade, and the codex has gotten stronger in each edition...
GW struck gold with the power / balance / feel of the DE codex...
Mech heavy metagame, here I come :)
Digit
· 4 months ago
Vehicles do not bother me in the least. Playing Grey Knights, I can move across the table in a GK Land Raider Crusader (arguably the best/most versatile tank in the game) with relative impunity, then get out and multiple assault several vehicles. My S6 NFW's eat rear armor all day.
Obi
· 4 months ago
The rise of Mech armies is the one thing keeping Tau even semi-competitive. No one in my FLGS played Tau before I showed up and I think that is the reason I have been at the top of the leaderboard for so long.
Why am I able to win? 6 twin-linked railguns, that can shoot at 4 different targets usually doesn't have a hard time with AV 14 or MC. Seeing people waste points on transports makes me even more happy.
whitestar
· 4 months ago
I think the major disadvantage to the IG mech builds is the squadron of vehicles. Don't forget that squadrons distribute hits on the vehicles, and while this can be good, it also means that someone can fire with several lascannons and their multiple damage results mean something. Additionally this is a huge disadvantage in close combat, where things like monstrous creatures and walkers can damage or destroy your whole squadron with ease.
Secondly, in a squadron, immobilized results become destroyed results. This basically means your vehicles suffer the damage tables from the previous edition - 6 on a glance is a destroyed and 4+ on a penetrating hit (or 3+ from AP 1!!!). Granted, LRBT squadrons are mean, they can be relatively easy to take care of because they're in a squadron than if there were 3 separate tanks. Maybe as a tyranid I have a much easier time busting tanks with my carnifexes, but I don't worry about IG tanks at all.
zenpaladin
· 4 months ago
Hmm I run Tau and Cron's so there's some dificulty either way. Of course with any exteam list you an build a breaker but Paper Rock Sissors with lists isnt' my idea of a good time.
In any case.. as a tactic I would try to close with the armor. Get right up in its face so pie plates become risky proposistions. Reserving my stuff so they get less fire time is a good answer and finaly targeting the transports with the troops. Kill those few low count troop squads to deny objectives then abuse the 3+ gone to ground to keep your own troops on objectives and alive.
Of course the ability to mix and match with flamers and pie makes it difficult. But that would be my general stratigery any way.
Fortunaly my local IG friend doesnt have and can't affort a lot of tanks. The heavy mech Marine player I play sometimes makes me a sad panda though.
Herald of Nurgle
· 4 months ago
So what are the stats of the Deathstrike missile?
Whenever I play Tanks, I have to think about the anti tank elements. Of course, that just means Havocs or Chosen - for quad-Meltas. That's just a simple ideal
AbusePuppy
· 4 months ago
It's S10 (and AP1, I think) all across its blast area, so it will give a bunch of transports trying to line up defensively fits if it actually lands. Of course, anyone who gets caught off guard by a Deathstrike deserves whatever they get, so...
Word_Bearer
· 4 months ago
I run my own variant of the mega mech army list, but its one I've been running for years so the new codex just makes it so that I can actually win sometimes.
What I'm running in the 'ard boyz tournament is: 5 Chimeras 1 Hellhound 1 Basilisk 3 Vanquishers with pask 1 Demolisher 6 squads of Grenadiers (2 plasma heavy, 2 melta shotgun, and two objetive sitters with grenades and autocannons.) and a command squad. Last but not least, the all important techpriest with 4 servitors.
Each part of the army serves a dedicated function. The Vanquishers absolutely GUARANTEE that some sort of transport will be killed each turn, and nothing is better for an IG army than blowing up your enemy's transports on the other side of the table on turn 1. They also have 6 heavy bolters between the three of them so they are ok at thinning out infantry too. The demolisher has extra armor so that I can drive it around with impunity through most opponent's armies, and flamer sponsons too. The basilisk sits on the opposite side of my deployment zone to lend support and also to draw off valuable anti tank assets to split my opponent's army, and the vets and hellhound shoot the ever living crap out of anything that gets within 24 inches. They are our shootiest unit by far, and a plasmagun heavy squad can shoot all of its specialists from inside a chimera!.
The only thing which is of only questionable usefullness is the command squad, but I personally find that the minor usefulness of orders for veterans plus the fact that they tend to draw a lot of firepower away from other units make them worth it so long as I keep them cheap.
The biggest problem with this army is just fitting it all on the table. with all my transports my army takes up 38" with all of the tanks stacked together, so with a lot of terrain things can be tough to manage sometimes. Also when the Vanquishers decide to miss for the first 2 turns things tend to go horribly wrong.
In smaller games I run 1 less vanquisher and take hydras instead of the basilisk and hellhound as they are great for fire support and awesome for killing light vehicles.
Purge the Heretic
· 4 months ago
I have the same options I've always had...exorcist and melta gun spam. the only other possibility would be outflanking repentia or penitent's with a guard based list and creed.
definately not the most effective all comers list, but 9 immolators and 10 melta guns did well for St. John in last years 'ard boys,
I've been using a space marine base list of late,2x Multi melta dreads drop podding first turn provide a heavy distraction first turn even if they don't pop anything, and allow me time to get a land raider full of assault marines and teleporting librarian +20 sisters to the front, toss in a few tactical squads w heavy weapons and a predator/vindicator and I'm gtg.
chris
· 4 months ago
I have two battle wagons with Kannons, two looted wagons with boom guns, 12 deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkit launchers and myriad boys mobs with a PK nob in trukks. Armor is not a problem. It's the buttload of flashlights that kill me.
mathhammer
· 4 months ago
tyranids hate tanks
sodcactus
· 4 months ago
Yes, we don't like canned food....
Miggidy_Mack
· 4 months ago
With the firepower that your opponents 2250 army can put out it "should" be able to concentrate it's fire on your scoring units. That could really hurt you in some missions. I think holding the scoring units in chimera's in reserve would get around that by quite a bit. That and carefully managing LOS.
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Just to throw into the fray my own quick drawn list for 1500 mech IG.
Command w/ Officer of the Fleet and Ordnance. Autocannon, 3 Grenade launchers and Chimera with heavy bolters. (The ordnance can fire EVERY turn!!!)
2x Veteran Squad with Demolitions, 3 grenade launchers and Chimera with heavy bolters.
2x Banewolf with Multimelta and smoke launchers
2x Battle tank 2x Demolisher with Heavy bolter sponsons.
(9 tanks, 2 scoring units and some nice tank busting along with anti-horde) ------------------------
Marine Mech style list...again 1500 and just to see if you can.
Master of the Forge w/ conversion beam Tactical Squad w/ multimelta, meltagun, powerfist and Razorback Tactical Squad w/ plasma pistol and power weapon
3x Dreadnoughts w/ multimetlas 3x Predators w/ heavy bolter sponsons
3x Land speeders w/ multimeltas 3x Land speeders w/ Heavy bolters and assault cannons
(13 vehicles , 2 scoring units and, again, tank busting along with anti-horde) -------------------------
And yes....I know there's probably a few flaws with the lists....but I wrote them in about 10 minutes just to see what you can get for your points.
To be honest....I'm quite impressed with the amount you can get into a marine army if you keep it simple
kaptin scuzgob
· 4 months ago
Its probably already been mentioned here, but Orkz can get 8 Battlewagons in one army: 3 Battlewagons in Heavy Support, then Nobz or Meganobz can take them as dedicated transports, so if you take two Warbosses you can get up to 5 Nobz mobz, so you can get a Battlewagon for each of them. Due to restrictions, only the 3 in HS can take Killkannons, which is the only bad part.
Morgan666
· 4 months ago
It's a damn shame defensive weapons are strength 4 and not strength 6. Could you imagine what a squadron of Leman Russ Punishers could do with hv flamer sponsons along with the front hv flamer to a gaunt army? I guess you could drive the squadron and park infront of the most likly route to the eneemy objective but that would be an expensive road block with points that could be better spent.
kaptinscuzgob
· 4 months ago
It annoys me the same way: an Ork Boy can run along and fire his rokkit launcha with no problem, but a Battlewagon has trouble when it goes over a certain speed? Orkz wouldn't care!
Huh
· 4 months ago
YTTH has been talking up mech lists for almost two years. Bols just noticed this now?
darkwynn
· 4 months ago
Huh Mech list were not that great in 4th edition. They worked well in some armies.
in 5th edition they have been better with the way codex's have changed over time and subtle rule changes such as emergency disembark and so forth.
Black Templar were great as a mechanized list but stronger as a Foot slonger list.
Orks were better hoarde list but could do just as great as a mechanized list.
Regular marines were not that great as mechanized till the new codex.
Dark eldar only way to play was mechanized
Tau only way to play was mechanized
Chaos were not great mechanized till 5th edition.
Sorry but YTTH sometimes has some decent ideas and I can agree with some of the tactics but a lot of the list they build are not strong nor great by any means.
Well, I play a homegrown Codex Space Marine Chapter, the Sons of Swabia. Their big draw is they love vehicle and big bio-beast crushing, hence they pretty much roll with nothing but Lascannon and Meltas. If I ran into an army like this one you describe I'd roll my 3 Scout Bike Squads up as fast as possible and deepstrike with pretty much everyone else.(My 'Nought F.D.C. armed with melta/hammer, me tac squads with las and meltas w/p fist sergeants, my Assault Squads with p fist, and of course my Termies w/chainfists and M.Launchers.)
cantthinkofaname
· 1 month ago
executioner + 3 shots + marines and almost anything else on the ground=piles of goo and bloody bodies...in short those things are dangerous!
All Comments
Play some games with good opponents and you'll soon see how idiotic your statement is.
You should have a plan for your army/units so you know how to solve diffrent tasks with them.
If you dont know thoose tasks beforehand (enemy list/mission) it will have to cover more bases. If you know mission + enemy list you colud make a quite specialised list though.
Although it would be interesting to solve battlefield problems with unsuited units I´d say that would only be half the fun.
On another note I have something I have been thinking about for a while:
Pre-written army lists.
Say that you are going to participate in a tournament where you where going to play IG you had a choice of lets say 3 builds (already made by someone else)
Could be: infantry, Tanks, mechanised etc.
Same for other races such as space marines, orks
Would take that "listbuilding-craze" out of thoose settings, for theese ppl who defiantley dont like that
In my group, what we tend to do is have all comers lists for pick up games and more specialised lists not for taking on specific armies but for having more unusual games - non-standard scenarios, Cityfights, unusual terrain or table set ups, campaigns, Apocalypse (obviously) and now Planetstrike.
Other groups have different approaches and that's fine, just talk things over beforehand so everyone knows where they stand.
Well, at least not if you have flexibility in your army and can add/remove units whenever you see a list you need something different to deal with. Lists that utilize so many tanks would be rough for armies that are focused to deal with hoards, or that are balanced in terms of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle distribution, but so long as you keep a measure of flexibility, I don't see a problem.
I play Chaos Space Marines, and so it's rather easy to add some more anti-vehicle into the mix. Throw in a few more melta guns, perhaps even a squad of Havocs mounted in a Rhino to take advantage of the two firing points (impromptu Razorback) and suddenly those squadrons start allocating wounds and fall apart.
Luckily my Death Company has rending! I'll be using that a whole lot more with all the armor running around.
IG troops 50pts / £11,75 = 4,25
IG Vets 70pts / £11,75 = 5,96
Stormtroopers 160pts / £24,45 = 6,54
Chimera 55pts / £19,55 = 2,81
Valkyrie : 100pts / £34,25 = 2,92
Hellhound 130pts / £29,35 = 4,43
Leman Russ 150pts / £24,45 = 6,13
LRD 165pts / £29,35 = 5,62
For SM :
tactical squad : 170pts / £19,55 = 8,69
terminator squad : 200pts / £24,45 = 8,18
Assault squad : 100pts / £15,65 = 6,39
Rhino : 35pts / £19,60 = 1,79
Land Speeder : 50pts / £17,60 = 2,84
Land Raider : 250pts / £34,25 = 7,30
We can see that naked basic troop is 2x more expensive in IG than with SM, that transport are expensive like hell in both armies, and in general IG is more expensive to play than SM
Points-per-pound index
Next logical step is to make averages to the races and present this info to newcomers to the hobby. Again, useful info.
Now it's 10 guardsmen for $22
What do you mean?
Plus, I don't think the Mega Mech list is with squadrons.
I think it's all single entries.
3 Hellhounds in seperate slots.
3 LR varients in seperate slots
HQ & Troop Choices in Chimeras.
Think about it, a company command squad, and 2 infantry platoons is 7 possible chimeras at a minimum if they all mount up.
You're looking at tossing 21 str 6 (multilaser) and 21 str 5 (heavy bolter) shots down range every turn and that doesn't including anything BUT the chimera's themselves. Yes, the str 6 wont touch a LR or a Monolith or the front of a BW or LR, but once you start moving about, and possibly out flanking. Well, now you're in for a treat!
I lost my battlewagons early but I still had enough speed to get my powerklaws on the vehicles pretty easily...and they die fast that way. My opponent found that hellhounds are near useless vs Nobs, and that Snikrot can spoil anyone's day. In the end I had one trukk that did nothing but sat on an objective the entire game, another trukk running amok and all he had left was 1 immobilized chimera, 1 undamaged chimera and the LRBT..everything else was a smoking wreck and I had both objectives.
Simply put once my transports were dead, he just did not have enough firepower to deal with my troops effectively and I was still able to get across the board.
Played against a chaos marine army and while he picked off some of them and promptly ate the contents in combat, I still had most of my army left at the end, while he only had a dread and a weaponless rhino. unfortunately they'd beaten one flank while i'd dominated the other, and it was a kill point mission. They'd scored enough that i needed to table them to win, and i couldn't get my troops from my successful flank to his remaining forces quickly enough to get the kill.
Personally I like turning up with a different army every week to keep my regular opponents on their toes. The week before my light mech list I took an entirely infantry list consisting of about 200 models :oP I haven't tried a heavy mech list yet (feels a bit wrong) but I probably will at some point just for laughs.
Lets not forget that a lot of the Guard tanks are now armour 11 on the rear.
Add to that the FACT that most armies need to cover 24" of table minimum to reach the tanks and you've got to stop and think.
True, you get re-roll able 4+ invun and Str 9 12" range as well as in combat.....but you need 2 turns to get into combat. During those 2 turns you're getting that 600 point, 11 man unit, pounded by at least 3 battle-cannons for the same points....and the heavy bolter sponsons to boot. You can only pass so many saves even with a re-roll.
Sorry I wasn't clear with regards to the single tank. I should have said tank or squadron.
I sat down last night and managed to write a 1500 pt IG list with 3 squadrons of 2 tanks. Along with 3 Chimera's. We're talking 2 Demolishers with all heavy bolter sponsons. 2 Battle tanks (as the come) and 2 Banewolf's with Multimeltas.
Me. I'd be placing the Demolishers and Battle tanks at opposite edges and the Banewolf's in the middle....dependant on game/opponent etc. But with a seer council on the board, that would be my tactic. Ain't no way they can get all 3 squadrons and survive.....they may not even reach them.
That's not quite what was written about, but squadrons go down VERY quickly. Deathcopters especially. Scout turboboost within 12" of you, and if they have the first turn, you're losing tanks straight away...
At least, that's how I read his deployment plan.
wrong look at page 34
ASSAULTING MULTIPLE ENEMY UNITS
And when you save three out of every four battlecannon wounds, you're usually overjoyed to see the opponent has put his points into heavy weaponry, rather than into lasguns.
But seer councils are a pretty unique situation. You're not going to play one every game.
Armored Companies tend to suffer from a lack of numbers and a lack of fire saturation. The few guns they do have are very good, but they don't have the tools to win the battle of attrition that is typically 40K.
In contrast, many other armies can swarm the table with numbers. Especially Nids and Orks. With both of those armies, you'll get 1 (maybe 2) turns of shooting to break them so badly they can't deliver an assault. Like with Orks, your best chances are to target transports and other quick units like Koptas/Bikes.
Lastly, the 40K battlefield is rarely in favor of an armored company. The distances between the armies are short and the tanks rarely get to capitalize on their range. There also tends to be way too much cover/concealment in the terrain. It just doesn't work well.
You've already clarified that orks in transports you take down quick but at Armour 10, open topped, that's not a difficult job. And then you know the unit inside is only 10 man strong.
The cover/concealment works both ways, you can use that for your tanks to get cover saves and still fire your turrets if you're smart. And with so much "ignores cover" weaponry in the Guard list (the Hell hound as mentioned or the...I believe Collosus or Medusa can't remember) it doesn't mean much for a horde army. And in a horde army...what are you talking about for armour pen...I mean DECENT armour pen...a power fist per squad?
With the right deployment (castling into a corner) a decent Mega-mech list will have no problem destroying the closer CC unit before it reachs them and then moving onto the next to do the same job.
Yes the transports are easy targets, however vehicle squadrons must fire at the same target. Ork armies can bring a lot of trukks to the table. They only need one to get through and (since your vehicles are in squadrons) one squad of Boyz can get in hand-to-hand all of them. Getting into CQC in 40K is very, very easy - especially with fast armies.
They don't need decent armor penetration capabilities, they can swarm the AV10 tanks in CQC. We don't even have to consider powerfists/claws/exarchs/grenades/etc.
Again - "the closer CC unit" implies some sort of dedicated tank hunters like Fire Dragons. However that level of specialization isn't necessary - you just flood the tanks with more infantry than they can kill.
Hell....if I knew you'd be in combat next turn, I'd forgo shooting and back up 6"+D6" to make you hit on 6's.
Not to forget that you're talking about assaulting one squadron of what would be 2 tanks. There's going to be those Hellhounds sitting there to roast your boys the moment they're out of those trucks. Sure, I can't take down every truck you can bring to the fold. But points for points I could probably take all but 1 or 2 and thus make your army come at me piece-meal, all the time destroying the closest units.
I get what you're saying and can see it could work...but I don't see how against a decent mega-mech list.
In my experience it's not enough to kill the enemy that you can see in this latest version of the game, it's about challenging those units that your opponent doesn't want you to see, because even if that's a small fraction of his forces that is all he's going to need to win the game.
With 4 or more counters, you get to place 2 of them and you can make sure that you get them close to deployment zones (right on the edge in fact) by putting them 12" from both edges (right in the corner).
This means your troops units in Chimera's (even if you only take 2) can stay in relative safety for some time before moving out onto the objective late in the game. Hell, you can even have them shooting from the hatch with Auto-cannons/Grenade launchers etc if you want more firepower.
The only other mission type involves contesting your opponents objective whilst holding your own. This is more tricky but I'd say a couple of hellhounds (preferably Banewolf's) used fast and hard (with a Chimera in support maybe) from turn 3 onwards to advance on the opponents objective....should do the job if you've been pounding from range to start with.
In Kill points....you can afford to stand and shoot.
Swarming is a problem now. For heavily-mechanized lists that don't revolve around Land Raiders, you have to be able to support the vehicles in front. And Squadrons may be more trouble than they are worth.
And if I'm in a corner...I've likely made the ork player take 3 turns to reach my tanks. In 1500 I've written out a list with 4 large blasts at high strength low AP, 14 Heavy bolters and 9 grenade launchers. If the squads are anywhere near full strength when they reach me...I deserve to loose.
only the demolisher chassis is rear 11, everything else LR and chimera based is rear armor 10.
5 plasma cannons!
Good luck getting anywhere near those tanks since they'll be shooting you the whole way in, and moving too to keep you from getting close.
There's a reason nobody runs foot armies any more.
For the best example of how much terrain to use, look at the UK GT standard of terrain. You get about 5-6 pieces of terrain per board on average...sometimes more, sometimes less.
You do get enough to run through and around etc but never enough to block line of sight......and with the NEW line of sight rules...terrain ain't stopping me shooting you anyway.
If you want an idea of what kind of scenery might be on a battlefield....have a look at what's left after a planetstrike game for an idea of what's been destroyed. The latest WD has a nice report.
Then again, the city leads to the denser terrain you're used to playing with (and what I prefer as well). Seeing two nicely painted armies battling each other on an open field is not anywhere near as exciting as seeing the same armies fighting each other with a reasonable mix of terrain.
Of course, this has nothing to do with mech lists.
My FLGS and a lot of stores don't seem to grasp this, our last tourney had like 2 buildings and a hill for each table. This isn't Fantasy guys!
Command Squad; 3 Flamers, Fleet Officer, Commander w/ Power Weapon & Melta Bombs, Chimera w/ Extra Armor
Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor and HK Missle
Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor and HK Missle
Veteran Squad; Shotguns & 2 Flamers, Chimera w/ Extra Armor
Hellhound Squadron; 2 Hellhounds, Smoke Launchers
Hellhound Suqadron; 2 Devil Dogs, Smoke Launchers
Vendetta Squadron; 3 Vendettas, Heavy Bolter Squadrons
Leman Russ Squadron; 2 LR Battle Tanks
Leman Russ Squadron; 1 Vanquisher(Pask), 1 Battle Tank, Hull Lascannons
Hydra Battery; 3 Hyrdas
Points: 2500/2500
Infantry Count: 36
Vehicle Count: 18
Yeah to most anyone that seems a pretty frightening prospect. Played effectively it would be too but against a competent general this army could be eaten piecemeal. A all-comers list from any army(except maybe Tyranids(they have trouble with normal mech...)) really wouldn't have too much problems against this army with proper protection of your own units and controlled target priority to eliminate the major threats and disrupt their lines.
Can I ask as to why no Banewolf's?
With Creed, they can scout down the battlefield before first turn and pop smoke if need be. Those AP3 wounds on 4+ weapons are idea for taking out the anti-tank units that your enemy has.
Just to mention, as well, that an all comers list won't have anti-tank scattered into every unit. You can quite easily take out the biggest tank hunting units turn 1 and 2 and then sit back and shred the rest of the army knowing that there's little threat to your bigger tanks.
The more I look at this list and the number of vehicles along with the fact that most are armour 12 or more, the most I'm trying to work out how my Marines could beat it without kitting out specially to deal with it.
Stick heavy flamers on all your vehicles to threaten hordes (much better than that dinky hull lascannon) and give your Vets meltas.
Run Demolishers to pop AV14, Eradicators to wipe out infantry in cover or piling out of their rides, or Executioners to mess up heavy infantry.
Devil Dogs are great, Vendettas too.
Hydras are solid.
A couple PBS is like having another Battle tank without worrying about squadron rules.
Sticking Pask in one (as he did) goes a long way to making a Vanquisher very effective, essentially turning the main gun into a long-range melta (thanks to Pask's Crack Shot) that doesn't need half range to roll 2 dice if it stays still.
And as I said, Crack Shot essentially turns it into a long range melta, because it adds +1 when rolling on the damage table against vehicles - the same thing AP1 does.
You move it and Pask is just an expensive passenger for that turn.
But even so, a BS4 Lascannon/Vanquisher shot is nothing to sneeze at. Even without the +1 on on the damage table your chances of disabling a Land Raider are pretty good.
Though I would stick some multimeltas on those Hellhounds
Str 8 with two dice combined like the Vanquisher does, on the other hand...
Either way, as a Blood Angels player I have a hard time with tanks as I play mostly Jump Pack heavy lists. My Jump Packers sure do have Power Weapons to kill tanks, but first they have to get through the hail of fire and once they popped the tank, its passengers either charging or rapid firing them in the next turn are a problem.
The best and more or less only good Blood Angels unit for tank killing is the simple Attack Bike with Multimelta. For 50 points, it easily earns its points back. It just moves behind the cover of the overcharged Rhinos and swings out when it's in range to fire the Multimelta.
However, for my taste it's a bit too random to take out tanks. The Assault Canon's strength of 6 means it has a 50% chance to glance a tank's back armor of 10, but most of the time I am facing the front armor, of course. Rolling the extra D3 for rending is nice, but those necessary 6s just don't happen frequently enough.
In my last game I wasn't able to kill a single Guard tank while mine got all killed. I had only one Attach Bike - that's why I am painting 4 more now. ;-)
are they tastier hot?
Apparently its some technique where the dice melts a bit and weighs down the one side so it has a higher chance of rolling whats on its opposite side, as dice rely on being perfectly weighted to roll properly.
and i have to say, weighting dice loses its point if your opponent shares your dice
And yes, it does tend to lose its point, and get oddly suspicious when your opponent says "dont use that dice, use this one instead, that's my "lucky die"
But it is a stupid way to cheat. A weighted die can not be "spun" normally. So it is pretty easy to prove that you have been cheating if anyone ever tests you.
<-- also wants blood angels to go the way of kroot mercs. :D
name that flick
The introduction of Predators for less than 100 points a pop WITH sponsons and Dreadnoughts for only 120 points was the first warning sign that I had. Marine lists started coming out with 2 predators, a Land Raider, 6 land speeders and 3 dreadnoughts AND still enough points for their troops.
This meant armies started needing tank busting weapons in more than 2 or 3 units. I used to have 2 specialised fast units to deal with tanks. My Marine Bikes had Melta-bombs (which they're now removed) coupled with Skilled Rider and my Devastators would get the 4 missile launchers with Tank Hunters.
With the loss of the traits, I had to start improvising up some new anti-tank for my Marines and found it was quite difficult to get anything reliable AND cheap for tank busting. Sure, everyone's got Krak grenades these days but it's getting the guys in on those tanks before getting shot to hell. I'm working on a Meltagun/dual powerfist fix for the list with Sternguard and Razorbacks with Assault Cannons....but I'm finding that I'm spending a shed load of points on what is, effectively, only 7 models.
I've come up with the same problem for my Chaos too. Without Obliteraters, you're reduced to a few options for your tank busting and these tend to be other vehicles which can get quite pricey when you start to kit them out.
I'm a player who likes to theme his armies. My Marines all have MkVI armour and don't use Plasma or Lascannon tech due to their history (it's complex but they're survivors of Istavan IV and other Heresy battles but feel they've failed the emperor and won't re-join the Imperium until they can kneel before him in person and ask for forgiveness....that's the short version). This means they haven't been able to maintain the sensative lenses of the Lascannons and their Plasma has long since broken down. It also means that the armies are mainly scout from recruiting from worlds to replenish their small numbers. But with a limited number of Power Armour suits available, not everyone can be a marine.
You get the idea anyways.....Under the old Marines, I could play with the codex and get myself a REALY cool list that worked for them and still had a good punch for anti-armour. Now I'm having to take Lascannons on my devastators and call them "Vengence missile launchers" just so I can deal some damage to Mech lists.
The only exception I have in my armies is my Eldar. I'm currently running a list where EVERY unit can punch through armour 14 AND can close down on the enemy vehicles quickly. The quick list is:
2 Prisms, 2x2 squads of Vypers with missile launchers and cannons, 2 squads of 6 jetbikes with Warlocks, spear, embolden and 2 cannons each, another squad of 4 with warlock, enhance and cannon accompanied by a Farseer on bike with spear and an Autarch on bit with Fusion gun and power weapon.
Every unit can bring the beat down on a tank.....and I fear that's the way lists are going to have to go to continue to compete in a 40k tournament style scene.
Putting Guard aside, I've noticed that all the new Codex's have cheap transports and vehicle options that are cheap IF you don't kit them out too heavily. True, your "bare bones" tanks aren't taking extra armour or extra weaponry but when you've got only a few units here and there on the board capable of really punching through your armour from range, you don't need to kit out.
Predators are worried about nothing less than Str 7 weaponary, which there isn't a huge amount that has a good range. Rhinos and Razorbacks are amour 11, yes, but that means they draw at least 1 anti-tank weapon away from the rest of your tanks before they stop and for the points, you're not too bothered if it's blown away as long as it gets your troops further up the battlefield faster. I could go on but I'm sure you're all capable of looking in your codexs as the vehicles and working out what can do what.
So yeah....Mech lists are becoming more common and with the new Guard, I've started coming up against lists with 4 or more front armour 14 vehicles in them. How the HELL do you take out FOUR armour 14 vehicles quickly??? Especially when they're pounding you from range with high strength, low AP, large blast, pinning weaponary?? My new Eldar list is an attempt to do this but to still deal with horde and the between armies.
What I'd like to see is some lists that people have come up with that give them plenty of "anti 14" weapons but can still cope with other types of army. Has anyone managed to pull this for Daemons and not take anything Discs or Flamers? Can you get Marine lists that can cope with 4 armour 14 vehicles and not get pounded from long range by those battle cannons?? Is it possible to bring to the fold a RELIABLE chaos army which can close on those tanks and take them down without using Obliteraters.
Surely we've not been reduced to taking one specific type of unit in each of our armies just to ensure we can take down these heavy vehicles. Surely we can do without our flamers/discs, obliteraters etc. Is there a CHEAP anti tank option available to combat these CHEAP tanks???
Anyone?
I miss that. I'd happily trade off this crappy new dex for a faq that fixed the KP problem. QQ
That aside your short answer is yes and no. I am starting a DE army right now because of this metagame shift. Aside from the Dark Eldar and the wretched weeaboo tau, who I will never play, there is very little in the way of cheap long range anti tank. Well, without deep striking, but that is far from reliable. Maybe I'm just reacting too quickly to your post... I probably know more than I'm letting on here but I can't remember what it is right now.
In fact, the Tau friggin' rule. Yeah, they need a new codex, but there are a bunch of armies who could use a new book to keep up with the Jonses right now...and the Guard....and the Orks and Marines......
But, hey. Watch what you say about the Tau, those are my boys!(and Shadowsun is a Bad*ss B*tch) And they'll shoot the crap outta the Dark Eldar, please ask a Dark Eldar player about that if you get a chance ;)
Good luck with those 'wretched' DE models. No coincidence that your starting a DE army when the new 'Dex is right around the corner? I'm sure they'll be the new cheese for a while...sounds slightly 'weeaboo' if you ask me.
I'd go on, but Kung Fu Hustler was such a great movie. The part with the snakes and throwing of the knives was just the funniest sh*t ever...when he put that knife back in the dude's arm...lol...
I have played 2 games with them, and they are pretty awesome sauce. You can either scout or outflank w/ them, whichever is more convenient. I run 3x squads of 4, with three grenade launchers and melta bombs on the sergeant, and cluster mines.
Against anything w/ rear armor 10, these guys rule. They have 6(!) strength 6 shots (definitely put one of the grenade launchers with the sergeant) on the way in, then 3 krak grenades and a melta bomb. Meanwhile, their cluster mines are detonating on a troops choice somewhere and doing a hell of a lot of damage.
The great thing is how versatile they are. You can outflank for the rear/side armor, and wail on it w/ S6 shooting/ assault, or if you are up against hordes, you deploy the cluster mines in areas they have to go through and then blow holes in them with the grenade launchers.
I run an all bike army though- with a plasma command squad and three maxed melta troop bikers, so I'm pushing the enemy tanks pretty far back w/ that alone. Right into outflank range for my lowly, unintimidating scout bikers.
If you go first you can take out the most threatening enemy tanks without any problem; Infiltration + 24" scout move + 12" normal move + 6" charge gets you anywhere on the table - add a meltabomb and watch anything get blown to pieces.
Our group of gamers agreed on not using them in "normal" games.
In response to yourself Charlie, the outflanking is great and I use it myself with my own scout bikers....but with the Master of the Fleet and astropath, you just can't pull it off against an IG list without some serious luck.
A bike list is a nice way to go with Marines...but I think point for point it's too much. You can't get a lot of bacon from your piggie and with Str 8 AP large blasts....your bacon is toasted black before you get it into the sandwich.
I get the list and I like it....but the range is limited and the scout bikers are taken out of the equation with the right IG command squad.
This for under 100Pts is a slap in the face.
and 3 Scouts with a melta bomb is 75pts and killing a 150pts tank or even a more expensive one is definately worth it.
Scout Bikes are not very killy and quite easy to take down.
Your marines can work just fine without lascannons and plasma, I don't find them effective at all in 5th anyway. It's all about the meltas and flamers.
As for Daemons, they fold to AV14 and mech in general. It's a problem with the army, but your best bet is massed Bolts and MCs.
Chaos needs to run lots of melta and Oblits.
Stop the presses.
"Surely we can do without our flamers/discs, obliteraters etc. Is there a CHEAP anti tank option available to combat these CHEAP tanks???"
Screamers are the discs I was referring to....sorry, old school name.
And again, Obliterators have been brought up.
Running melta heavy lists does work but they rely on getting in close as do flamers.
What I'm asking for is a cheap LONG range option to counter the IG with their long range tanks which can tank down anything on the board (almost). Even the basic battle tank is 150 with a battle cannon that ranges the entire field (almost) has Str 8 AP3 large blast and rolls 2D6, picking the highest, for armour pen.
What do the other armies have for the equivalent points or less that can count as/do the same job as these weapons?
They're ultra survivable-it takes a LOT of firepower to take them out. Keep 'em in the middle of the board, moving foward side by side with Crisis teams, Hammerheads or Kroot for screening. With a 10 point upgrade-included in the cost above, they can move 'slow and purposeful' and still shoot. (Advanced Stabilization)
2 squads-or 3 squads if your really, really pissed off at tanks, will solve most tank infestation problems. Put 'em in reserve, if your worried about turn one. They have a 72 inch range, so just walk 'em on and do what I call 'The Cursor' -
Point. Click. Delete. Tank (or Tanks) gone.
They murder the heck outta vehicles, and are the best thing I've found for dealing with heavy armor at range.
Close up, fusion blasters..er, I mean Melta's are what's up. Be sure to scatter some throughout your list if you can.
If you feel cheap, a single Broadside is 70 (!) points- that's pretty darn cheap. I just like the cool upgrades on mine. I also like bringing them in squads of 3 >:)
Other than that.... Well, outflanking Deffkoptas with Rokkits and Buzzsaws? I guess you could use Zappguns if you've got a thing for self-punishment. Rokkit spam will pretty much get you nowhere hitting the front armor.
I was putting together this list to play a 1000p game at my local GW:
Cmnd
4 meltaguns
Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
Veterans
3 Meltaguns
Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
Veterans
3 plasmaguns
1 plasma pistol
Chimera w. hull hvy. flamer and stubber
2 Demolishers, plasma cannons, lascannons
1 scout Sentinel
Autocannon, hunterkiller (For flanking and hitting side armour)
I plan to keep advancing blazing away with the chimeras, and finaly attacking with meltas and hvy flamers.
The demolishers since the tables are quite small.
Plasmas because the always present marines/MEQ
Only worry is that the sentinel will get picked apart before it can do anything
I played one of thoose infamous armoured company lists back in the days.
That was one of the most booring and waste of time things i done in a long while.
Since the lemans couldnt move my whole gaming experience was putting out pie-plates on hapless enemy squads.
This new build I hope will be much more dynamic, fun to play, and able to grab objectives
I'm also not a huge fan of sponsons on Russes to begin with, but I especially don't like the plasma cannon sponsons on a demolisher. The tank costs a lot already, compared to a battle tank, and if the tank is moving, those sponsons never see much action. I like to use my tanks pretty aggressively, but rear armor 11 and the short range of a demolisher means that I'm either moving it into range or tank shocking enemy infantry.
With 80 points invested in the sponsons alone, you could give your sentinel a friend or just about afford an infantry platoon, and that would give you three more units to grab objectives, shield your tanks, and draw fire.
With the low point cost in the sentinel, it might even be worth it just to draw fire. Your opponent can either ignore it and get an HK in his flank, or deal with it and blow at least one turn of a unit's shooting, and maybe more.
ACTUALLY I PLAN TO FIRE MOST OF THEM FROM THE SAFETY OF INSIDE THE CHIMERAS. OF COURSE, ILL ALLSO TAKE THE OPPERTUNITY TO EXIT IT AND GIVE THE ORDER TO TWIN-LINK THOOSE MELTAS WHEN A REALY GOOD OPPORTUNITY ARRISES
I'm also not a huge fan of sponsons on Russes to begin with, but I especially don't like the plasma cannon sponsons on a demolisher. The tank costs a lot already, compared to a battle tank, and if the tank is moving, those sponsons never see much action. I like to use my tanks pretty aggressively, but rear armor 11 and the short range of a demolisher means that I'm either moving it into range or tank shocking enemy infantry.
HMMM... I LIKE THE PLASMA IN GENERAL FOR ALL THOOSE MEQ. BUT I SEE YOUR POINT, NEEDS THINKING
With 80 points invested in the sponsons alone, you could give your sentinel a friend or just about afford an infantry platoon, and that would give you three more units to grab objectives, shield your tanks, and draw fire.
WELL, AN INFANTRY PLATOON IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. WHY? WELL THE POINT OF THE LIST IS TO RENDER A LOT OF YOUR OPPONENTS WEAPONS USLESS: BOLTERS, LASGUNS, LINE INFANTRY WEAPONS. IF I GIVE THEM JUST ONE TARGET (LIKE INFANTRY) THAT TARGET WILL GET REALY POUNDED AL ON ITS LONESOME.
IN FACT, THATS WHY IM CONSIDERING DROPPING TO MELTAGUNS FROM THE CMND SQ AND UPPGRADING THE SCOUT SENTINEL TO AN ARMOURED ONE. THEN IT WILL BE AV12 MINIMUM ALL THE WAY!!
With the low point cost in the sentinel, it might even be worth it just to draw fire. Your opponent can either ignore it and get an HK in his flank, or deal with it and blow at least one turn of a unit's shooting, and maybe more.
Shas'o, FB, MP, MT
6 FW, Devilfish+DP (x5)
5 Piranhas w/DP, 2 w/FB+TL (x3)
Hammerhead w/Railgun, DP, MT, BCs (x3)
That's 23 skimmer hulls on the table, all of them getting constant 4+ cover saves against everything. It might be advantageous to give the commander a Positional Relay so the list can play reserves games against armies that warrant it (Demons, drop pods, etc), but I haven't really tested the list, since I don't have that many Piranhas laying around. Converting a railhead to a Skyray and adding some Seeker missiles to the Piranhas or Devilfish would also be an option to shore up against other mech armies, though it weakens you against Land Raiders and Monoliths.
I don't know how I, personally would deal with this list, but I know that it would be able to go up against a lot of stuff and come out well. I guess if an opponent had a lot of lascannons, it would nullify the benefit of having the Land Raider.
Hitting 89% of the time
Pinning 95% of the time (depending on armour)
Killing 50% of the time (ap1)
Every melta is killing something 42.275% of the time. If they have cover its even worse.
Before that game I didn't think much of his list but after seeing the amount of str 5 templates, str 6 and 7 shooting and str 10 large blasts. not to mention creed making 10 guys with lasguns fearless and charging my dreads makeing them useless. It wasn't a very fun game. He still only had a minor victory in the tourny scored mission. (15pts to 10pts) I don't like when an oponents list can make you feel helpless and yet I watch them play and see 2 or 3 mistakes a turn the player is making but because statistically I can only kill 2 vehicles a turn and the 10 children inside. In objective matches It almost seems unfair. (this tournament didn't have 1 kill point mission... one had victory points. Maybe this is why I had a bad taste in my mouth) I understand now why kill points balance 5th ed. Victory points after I kill a 10 man squad and chimera nets me 105 points. Sure I could replace all my flamers and go all melta but then I would get owned by any good nid or ork player. I don't think that taking lots of fancy vehicles in the new IG codex is really that great. If you take 6 + chimeras accompanied with other strong vehicles you can have a armour spam list from hell where good tactics take a back seat to "deal with all this crap" And if a list like this was handled by a skilled player. I see it as a huge up hill climb for any non DE army.
Should be 14 tanks 170 plus troops...plenty of scoring units....option to deepstrike/outflank a good bit of the army and more than enough shooting to deal with hoards...I have had great success with conscripts vs ork mobs...throw 100 or more shots at any unit and you should do OK.
So they will be placed as a big ball of tanks...
Just one Manticore or Marinelord... no good.
Some might have a large output, but every "dead
tank" too early in the game will be a great pain.
But don´t hesistate trying.
Mech lists do not load on AV 14 vehicles... you do need some Melta weapons to fight the 1-2 LRs or such, but in general they will load up on lots and lots of AR 12 vehicles. AR 10 on the side, for Chimeras.
To counter this, and as good units in general, I like to see more counter lists that have more units capable of breaking transports, even if they aren't necessarily heavy-tank hunters. More autocannons, especially on mobile platforms like Dreadnaughts that can move forwards and command a flank, while taking shots at a Chimera's side AR 10. ACs cost about as much as a MM, but start shooting at 48", which means that you can keep the Dread in cover for safety, and with two of them on opposite sides you're threatening many enemy tanks.
If they form a tank line you do need some Melta weapons to break the front armor (or just more ACs, MLs, and LCs, they can go through AR 12) of a transport or two, then you start shooting at the sides of the exposed vehicles. As long as they form a line, they can't prevent you from encircling them to get the side shots. A squadron can turn its vehicles to face a semicircle, so it's harder to flank squadrons, but transports generally can't get into squadrons.
Also, if dealing with too many target, we need to consider putting anti-tank, even light anti-tank, on more units. Instead of running a dedicated anti-Horde Plague Marines with 2 Flamers, I run 2 Meltas and put a single combi-Flamer shot with the Champion. It's less effective against horde armies, but having more units that can threaten tanks and MCs is better than having a single unit of 4 MultiMeltas, that can only destroy a single 50 point transport per turn.
Oh, and remember this: Death or Glory is auto-hit. So give your Veteran Sergeant a meltabomb, and he'll auto-hit with it when the unit is Tank Shocked, rather than needing a 6 to hit like he would when assaulting.
Been rocking DE for over a decade, and the codex has gotten stronger in each edition...
GW struck gold with the power / balance / feel of the DE codex...
Mech heavy metagame, here I come :)
Why am I able to win? 6 twin-linked railguns, that can shoot at 4 different targets usually doesn't have a hard time with AV 14 or MC. Seeing people waste points on transports makes me even more happy.
Secondly, in a squadron, immobilized results become destroyed results. This basically means your vehicles suffer the damage tables from the previous edition - 6 on a glance is a destroyed and 4+ on a penetrating hit (or 3+ from AP 1!!!). Granted, LRBT squadrons are mean, they can be relatively easy to take care of because they're in a squadron than if there were 3 separate tanks. Maybe as a tyranid I have a much easier time busting tanks with my carnifexes, but I don't worry about IG tanks at all.
In any case.. as a tactic I would try to close with the armor. Get right up in its face so pie plates become risky proposistions. Reserving my stuff so they get less fire time is a good answer and finaly targeting the transports with the troops. Kill those few low count troop squads to deny objectives then abuse the 3+ gone to ground to keep your own troops on objectives and alive.
Of course the ability to mix and match with flamers and pie makes it difficult. But that would be my general stratigery any way.
Fortunaly my local IG friend doesnt have and can't affort a lot of tanks. The heavy mech Marine player I play sometimes makes me a sad panda though.
Whenever I play Tanks, I have to think about the anti tank elements. Of course, that just means Havocs or Chosen - for quad-Meltas. That's just a simple ideal
What I'm running in the 'ard boyz tournament is:
5 Chimeras
1 Hellhound
1 Basilisk
3 Vanquishers with pask
1 Demolisher
6 squads of Grenadiers (2 plasma heavy, 2 melta shotgun, and two objetive sitters with grenades and autocannons.) and a command squad.
Last but not least, the all important techpriest with 4 servitors.
Each part of the army serves a dedicated function. The Vanquishers absolutely GUARANTEE that some sort of transport will be killed each turn, and nothing is better for an IG army than blowing up your enemy's transports on the other side of the table on turn 1. They also have 6 heavy bolters between the three of them so they are ok at thinning out infantry too. The demolisher has extra armor so that I can drive it around with impunity through most opponent's armies, and flamer sponsons too. The basilisk sits on the opposite side of my deployment zone to lend support and also to draw off valuable anti tank assets to split my opponent's army, and the vets and hellhound shoot the ever living crap out of anything that gets within 24 inches. They are our shootiest unit by far, and a plasmagun heavy squad can shoot all of its specialists from inside a chimera!.
The only thing which is of only questionable usefullness is the command squad, but I personally find that the minor usefulness of orders for veterans plus the fact that they tend to draw a lot of firepower away from other units make them worth it so long as I keep them cheap.
The biggest problem with this army is just fitting it all on the table. with all my transports my army takes up 38" with all of the tanks stacked together, so with a lot of terrain things can be tough to manage sometimes. Also when the Vanquishers decide to miss for the first 2 turns things tend to go horribly wrong.
In smaller games I run 1 less vanquisher and take hydras instead of the basilisk and hellhound as they are great for fire support and awesome for killing light vehicles.
the only other possibility would be outflanking repentia or penitent's with a guard based list and creed.
definately not the most effective all comers list, but 9 immolators and 10 melta guns did well for St. John in last years 'ard boys,
I've been using a space marine base list of late,2x Multi melta dreads drop podding first turn provide a heavy distraction first turn even if they don't pop anything, and allow me time to get a land raider full of assault marines and teleporting librarian +20 sisters to the front, toss in a few tactical squads w heavy weapons and a predator/vindicator and I'm gtg.
Command w/ Officer of the Fleet and Ordnance. Autocannon, 3 Grenade launchers and Chimera with heavy bolters.
(The ordnance can fire EVERY turn!!!)
2x
Veteran Squad with Demolitions, 3 grenade launchers and Chimera with heavy bolters.
2x Banewolf with Multimelta and smoke launchers
2x Battle tank
2x Demolisher with Heavy bolter sponsons.
(9 tanks, 2 scoring units and some nice tank busting along with anti-horde)
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Marine Mech style list...again 1500 and just to see if you can.
Master of the Forge w/ conversion beam
Tactical Squad w/ multimelta, meltagun, powerfist and Razorback
Tactical Squad w/ plasma pistol and power weapon
3x Dreadnoughts w/ multimetlas
3x Predators w/ heavy bolter sponsons
3x Land speeders w/ multimeltas
3x Land speeders w/ Heavy bolters and assault cannons
(13 vehicles , 2 scoring units and, again, tank busting along with anti-horde)
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And yes....I know there's probably a few flaws with the lists....but I wrote them in about 10 minutes just to see what you can get for your points.
To be honest....I'm quite impressed with the amount you can get into a marine army if you keep it simple
in 5th edition they have been better with the way codex's have changed over time and subtle rule changes such as emergency disembark and so forth.
Black Templar were great as a mechanized list but stronger as a Foot slonger list.
Orks were better hoarde list but could do just as great as a mechanized list.
Regular marines were not that great as mechanized till the new codex.
Dark eldar only way to play was mechanized
Tau only way to play was mechanized
Chaos were not great mechanized till 5th edition.
Sorry but YTTH sometimes has some decent ideas and I can agree with some of the tactics but a lot of the list they build are not strong nor great by any means.
solution to (imperial) mech armies.