And I just wrote a scathing commentary about this being a poor tactica artile and then read that its a discussion kick off. My apologies. rant retracted.
Bluephoenix
· 4 months ago
one of the fondest memories I have in any 40k game was a 2v2, guard and marines (myself and a friend) vs 2 necron players.
this was during 4th edition, and at turn 5 his razorback was shaken and weaponless, but was within 12" of the deceiver, so in a fit of "might as well" my friend tank-shocked the deceiver.
the result was rather funny, the deceiver scored only 1 crew stunned result, and thought he'd managed to stop it, until he realized the razorback had extra armor. 'squish' goes the deceiver, and a cheer goes up from the crew at having run over a god.
Anonymous
· 4 months ago
Why did I mentally substitute the image of the Deceiver being run down by a Razorback with Lo Pan being run down by a big rig driven by Kurt Russell in 'Big Trouble in Little China'?
sinsynn
· 4 months ago
One of the most classic 'cheezy, fun azz' movies of all time. Now I'm wondering if they released it in Blue Ray..........
Cupoftea
· 4 months ago
If I recall they don't get the Eternal Warrior rule (mainly because their book predates it), which leaves them open to some interesting instant death weapons.
Could be wrong, loooong time since I played against the lill bots of doom and their gods.
Divergent_Reality
· 4 months ago
no eternal warrior. the only instant death weapon they are immune to are d-cannons. it specifically states such in their page of rules. everything else eats them for lunch.
Matt
· 4 months ago
toughness 8... how much str 16+ shooting is there in this game?
forrestfire
· 4 months ago
They are safe from high-strength instant death, but are vulnerable to special abilities of weapons, such as the the Blissgiver daemon weapon or Al'rahem's Sword of the Desert Tigers.
bushidoredpanda
· 4 months ago
Or even force weapons I believe.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
Or Callidus + Weaken Resolve :)
LordSandwich
· 4 months ago
Problem is, Callidus's + force weapons + blissgivers + (I think) Al'rahem are all S4 or less, rendering said creatures immune to those weapons.
Myu
· 4 months ago
Callidus assassins are also useless vs them because of their C'tan phase sword which is destroyed if they try and attack a C'tan
Onidarkmoon
· 4 months ago
Callidus is not useless in this case. Use the ability weaken resolve to drop the C'Tan to 2 leadership, then Neural Shred him for instant death.
Vampire Harlequin
· 4 months ago
Nicely spotted! That's correct, and one of the stories in the codex even exemplifies this fact. Always makes me wonder where the assassin got that C'tan technology.
kauyon_la
· 4 months ago
?? You'd be able to wound him nice and easy but for the Neural Shredder you would still compare Strength and Toughness for instant death not Strength to Leadership.
Necron_Lord
· 4 months ago
I can't think of any units with force weapons which are greater than S 4, however. The only exception I can think of is Typhus because he has the daemon weapon of nurgle, so he can wound on a 2+, but T 8 is immune to S 4 attacks.
bushidoredpanda
· 4 months ago
True. Pretty much just SM librarians with Might of the Ancients.
Onidarkmoon
· 4 months ago
I have used my GK Grand Master with his force weapon to pop the Deciever before. Necrodurmus still killed him, but the look on my friend was priceless.
morstao
· 4 months ago
Actually lost nightbringer when he got charged by skulltaker. His instant death causing rending attacks are nothing to laugh at.
ShiftAlmighty
· 4 months ago
I thought c'tan were immune to poison attacks
kobkit
· 4 months ago
Nope, that's one of the best way to kill them.
Divergent_Reality
· 4 months ago
the problem with the blissgiver is that whole strength four backing it. the last chaos player i was up against had that problem with the nightbringer.
Illiterate Scrub
· 4 months ago
Malanthropes are probably where it's at.
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
I can see the Deceiver as being useful. Redeployment is always good, as is able to bait units into assaulting you by leading the army, then leaving combat before anything happens. Next turn they are bunched for pie plates from Monoliths, and torrent of shooting from the foot models.
But it's still a lot of points for something that the enemy can often ignore, or just shoot down with lascannon/missile launcher fire.
Nightbringer is worse. All it brings is "killy", and not enough of it, and practically all in CC. Yes, it's killy in CC... but not at range, and it's vulnerable to ranged fire unless you hide it behind a Monolith. Which slows it down, and forces you into a lot of points on non-Necron models.
Divergent_Reality
· 4 months ago
a major weakness you forgot to mention: snipers, poisoned weapons, et al.
those can spell quick death for the c'tan. the ranged versions tend to be more dangerous than the close combat versions, mainly for their ability to strike without retaliation. i loathe the thought of the drop pod sternguard popping a c'tan in one round of shooting.
much of what you have said is spot on. the nightbringer is perfectly useful simply running down your opponent's throat. the pocket lascannon is neat, but so-so.
the golden boy makes for nice ways to mess with your opponent. but with the proliferation of high leadership, re-rolls and fearless units he is less neat on the table top. pariahs help to fix this problem, but that puts two very expensive non-necron units on the table. granted, they will soak lots of firepower. but that is still an expensive bullet magnet.
in previous games with the c'tan i simply run the nightbringer straight towards my opponent's front lines as a distraction. it forces them to not shoot at my units that contribute to phase out. the c'tan and monolith preform the same function in my army. they are a distraction from phase out, and no major loss when destroyed. yes, you can ignore them, but eventually they reach a point where you can not ignore them. particularly the c'tan. the assault move and consolidation move after assault allow you to move much farther than you normally would once you can smash into their lines.
tprtrewevas
· 4 months ago
This will definitely have to be changed in the new codex if they want to make C'Tan fieldable... I remember the first time I used the nightbringer... he killed a 4th edition Falcon... it took him a couple of turns, but it was worth it, since I had never (to that point) seen one get smashed... however, the next game he brought rangers... the NB was out in second round (no cover saves, either, remember).
Miggidy_Mack
· 4 months ago
Deceive is a really great power. If you are deploying first against an assault army you can string one 20 strong unit of warriors across the very edge of your deployment zone. Then put everything else in a phalanx in the rear.
Pull that front squad back with deceive and you've got yourself a good amount of distance that assault unit has to cover.
Matt
· 4 months ago
A trick I like better is to leave all in reserves (helps with phase out too) only deploy the ctan and then re deploy him as you like after they deploy.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
I find the Deceiver to be the better of the two.
Many Necron players run to the Nightbringer (because it looks cooler), but both Necrons are roughly the same in CC, and it is the Deceiver's auxiliary abilities which make it better.
When I played in the Necro 06', I learned that Dark Lances function the same as sniper weapons. Ever since then, I never feared Necron Gods at all as a DE player.
Oddly enough, the only model type my Archon/Archite would never ever fight in CC is the Necron God model. So I avoid those two like the plague with my HQ. Funny that the army I fear the least, has the models my Archon fears the most lol.
zenpaladin
· 4 months ago
I've picked up the Nightbringer recently and used him just once in an Apoc game. He got tied up with a squad of Dark Angel scouts for a few rounds. Eventualy killing them. Then took on two Space Marine dreads. Poor rolling and a silly choice on my part coupled with ATSKNF keept him from really rocking and rolling the way I wanted.
I got him cuz he looks cool and its just fun to field Death incarnate with your robot zombies from outer space. I probibly wont use him much though. Our local crew tends to frown on all Special Characters as cheesy. And I don't like the massive point sink.
I do hope that the scuttlebutt I've heard about alternate uses for him in 40K come true Its just to cool a modle to never field.
cahal
· 4 months ago
My game group and I mostly play campaigns where each army has a base that gives them one special ability. On the campaign map I (playing necrons at the time) was parked between an IG player whose base gave some type of artillery strike, and an Eldar one which gave Deepstrike to one non vehicle (and non wraithlord) unit.
Well, after carving a path to, and capturing the Eldar base we all learned quickly that deepstriking Nightbringers are pretty close to OP most of the time. Because it was all friendly though I decided to give the ability to another unit in most games... well, some games.
Because I learned real quick that, like Divergent_Reality stated, these guys are just as susceptible to sniper fire as anyone else.
But, pairing C'tan up with Wraiths is also great to get a whole crew of "walk through wall"ers out there. It's just cool. Etheric Tempest is fun to just push little guys around after using Gaze of Fire, which is great if swarmed.
Don't have the Deceiver, but I think that (without a campaign rule deepstrike asset ability) he is the more versatile and valuable of the two, but I play Orks now so I won't know till I see one on the other side of the field ;-)!
LordAba
· 4 months ago
Don't forget their most important rule: just about immune to the callidus assassin!
bushidoredpanda
· 4 months ago
Ha! Might not be so important, but fluff wise its completely win.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
....
With his pig sticker sure.... But do what I did when I played against a necron player in my lgs (before he sold off his necrons)...
Drop the God's LD to 2 with a PBS, and deep strike your Callidus, and auto kill him with a single flamer attack.
Of course he has his 4++ save, but my friend failed that, and that was it. One dead God.
So yes, the Callidus is worthless using his little dagger, but he makes up for it by blowing the God's brains out with his Neural Shredder :)
Saark
· 4 months ago
You keep saying that, but Instant Death is based on Toughness, not on Leadership. Just because the weapon makes it easier to wound, doesn't mean the target's toughness stat is used.
The Shredder does not include the line "replace the target's Toughness with it's leadership" what it does say is "rather use the target's leadership.." So the flow would be:
Template attack C'Tan = Hit Use modified leadership instead of Toughness to determine Wound = Wounds on 2+ If a wound is inflicted, make saves as normal = 4++ save If unsaved wound, compare Strength of the Weapon to Target's Toughness = 8 v. 8 = No Instant Death.
You are just determining the wound. Nothing more.
Saark
· 4 months ago
Just found the line in the FAQ re: Neural Shredder. That is a nice trick then.
userexamplecom
· 4 months ago
I know you can get male callidi, but really, the vast majority of them are female.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
LOL
All my assassins are males since they are converted skeletons in my skeletal IG army :)
I guess they could easily be female skeletons too.
LordSandwich
· 4 months ago
PBS? Public Broadcasting System?
Ssyrie
· 4 months ago
I heard that they're all female because the Polymorphine doesn't work on males. But it does allow them to take the shape of males so you can always use male models if you want.
Personally I want a female Vindicare and a female Eversor.
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
Umm, yeah sort off, but it does work on some men, that is why they are only a few male Callidus Assassins. The rest are male organisations, but I guess they would alow a woman in. What about the Culexus Assassin, do you not want a female version?
Illiterate Scrub
· 4 months ago
If I remember correctly, all male Pariahs go to the Culexus temples, and all female Pariahs go to the Sister of Silence. The two are never mentioned together, and the SoS might not even exist any more, but that would seem to be the way it is.
mathhammer
· 4 months ago
Sisters of Silence still run all the black ships
Ssyrie
· 4 months ago
I'd love to have Sisters of Silence mini's.
YellowRex
· 4 months ago
The C'Tan in the Necron rulebook are pretty powerful, but they're just not "epic" enough for avatars of a god. This is even more apparent in the context of Apocalypse. Our gaming group did up a datasheet for a gargantuan creature Deceiver, modeled using a Silver Surfer action figure.
I argued for just gluing some scarabs on the surfboard and calling it good ('cause scarabs on the base makes anything Necron-y), but the guys insisted on modeling it up with swirling ribbons on wires holding him up in an awesome floating god of death pose and priming and painting him. Looked pretty cool. Can't find a picture, sorry.
Anyway, I thought I had read some rumors of Necrodermis options for Necron Lords, so slightly less powerful versions of the current Nightbringer and Deceiver models. There was some fluff along too about the Lords going a little batty and thinking they /were/ the gods. It'd be cool if that was extended to Wraith lords, too.
Then there could be official datasheets for the /real/ C'Tan gods, huge nasty Apoc-scale game-breakers.
mithril
· 4 months ago
thing is, they're not avatars, they are the "stargods". but they're only gods in the same way the Goa'uld in stargate are 'gods'. they've got increadibly advanced technology, which to less advanced races (which is basically everyone), looks to be powerful magic. the C'tan, before the necrontyr, were just energy beings that fed on the energy of stars. yes, "fed". they didn't swollow stars, like so many players seem to claim, the codex specifies fed. as in, they ate little inconsiquential chunks of a star. like a leech living off a persons blood. they were insubstantial and pretty weak. then the necrontyr found them and built them bodies of necrodermis, which basically is a kind of 'smart metal', probably like the programmable matter concept we're currently researching. this turned them into giant, extremely tough regenerating giants, which could feed on some sort of biological energy released when people died. the nightbringer, the first to be given a body, killed -thousands- on his first day before the necrontyr could calm him down. thousands aren't much in 40k. given that the necrontyr of the time were frail, sick bodies wracked with sickness, it wouldn't have been a particulalry tough job to kill that many. heck, the nightbringer as currently stated could do the job, considering that the early necrontyr would have had a statline like a guardsman (were basically human). and the current stats are for a nightbringer whose's been asleep for several mellenia, mostly out of energy to fuel all his tricks.
now i suspect that the 5th ed codex will probably ignore all the fluff they outlined in the current codex and make them uber-powerful apocalypse units-o-doom, but ultimately that wasn't the background they outlined in the codex.
Ssyrie
· 4 months ago
"now i suspect that the 5th ed codex will probably ignore all the fluff they outlined in the current codex and make them uber-powerful apocalypse units-o-doom, but ultimately that wasn't the background they outlined in the codex."
Actually, that's the rumors I'd been hearing about the C'Tan for a while. And it could be reasoned that they would get more powerful the longer they have been out of stasis, running around killing people and such.
Herald of Nurgle
· 4 months ago
If it wasn't for the fact that each player's armies deploy at completely different times, Grand Illusion would be brilliant Thats the main thing that hit the Deciever. Other than that, I love everything about C'Tan
Angelic_Despot
· 4 months ago
Please excuse posting this here... I had my first game against Necrons recently, and although I won, it was a tough game (and I was the first person in our group to beat them).
That's not boasting by the way: I run an ork horde and lose to most people. I guess being bad against everyone else made me good for taking on the Necrons. :)
Anyway; my question is how does the Flayed Ones' Terrifying Visage ability interact with the Fearless rule, if at all? It says take a leadership test, not a morale check, so it seems that fearless troops are not immune to it. Which seems weird as they are immune to everything else terrifying and troops with a better leadership are more resistant to the power, so you'd think fearless troops would be the most resistant.
I checked the BRB and Necron faqs, but couldn't find an answer.
As for the article: interesting thoughts on the C'tan... I'm glad I haven't had to face one yet! I'm not really a fan of special characters in most games, so I personally wouldn't find it much fun to play against a C'tan, even if I could beat it...
muras
· 4 months ago
The trouble is you need to read the latest printing of the book to see the revised rules. Fearless troops are immune to terrifying visage.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
"Anyway; my question is how does the Flayed Ones' Terrifying Visage ability interact with the Fearless rule, if at all? It says take a leadership test, not a morale check, so it seems that fearless troops are not immune to it."
This is correct. Fearless units are required to make LD tests like any normal unit, as long as the LD test isn't a morale or pinning test.
- edit -
@muras
Looks like I need to get the updated version myself..
Regardless, my answer was correct as far as fearless versus LD rolls are concerned. Just not with the Visage :(
muras
· 4 months ago
Yeah, I only recently found out there had been a second printing. It's not as obvious as the Dark Eldar update, but it's in there specifically.
Angelic_Despot
· 4 months ago
Thanks guys, but just to be sure: which book has been reprinted? The necron codex or the BRB? Or one of the FAQs?
I can't remember the name of the Flayed Ones' abiltiy. It's not 'Terrifying visage' (like the daemon power), but it is something to that effect (unless this is what's been updated in the reprint). So what does the rule you're telling me about actually say? Because if it specifically says 'terrifying visage' then I guess fearless troops are still not immune.
I had a feeling that I'd read somewhere that fearless troops were immune to this ability, but I can't remember where I read it or on what grounds they were immune.
muras
· 4 months ago
It has been updated in the reprint of the Necron Codex. My personal copy is missing a line in the new reprint. It flat out says that the ability doens't affect fearless troops in the rule in the newer version of the codex.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
I was really hoping when this Necron Tactica started that there would be some insightful thinking. I was wrong.
muras
· 4 months ago
I think the idea was not entirely to put up a lot of insight but to give us a starting point to discuss it, that being the point in these discussion threads. I found some of the discussion useful. You tried looking at this on the other topics? Do you have any useful input yourself?
RiotMan
· 4 months ago
Ctan models are also independent characters. The one necron player i played against loved to use them at any chance he got. Old Zogwort and 30 boyz changed his mind about that. There is no feeling more satisfying than handing your opponent a little tiny squig figure and asking them to remove a 300/360 point figure.
NeilBrimelow
· 4 months ago
Yeah, 40k has really turned into a "swarm" game, and what's the purpose of having a mega-creature if it can only kill 5 guys a round? Ctan should be real easy to defeat with the guard now. I learned the hard way (when playing against a Games Day Grand Tournament Winner) that a max squad of hormugants can tie up the Nightbringer for the entire game.
I did love the time a Blood Angels player charged the Ctan with full 10 models only to realize that after the first round (with furious charge) that his assault squad could not even wound the Nightbringer (no hidden power fist).
Personally, they should lower the points for the Ctan for the Necrons update OR at least make the Nightbringer an utter badass, with like 10 attacks or something to that effect. I would much rather have 60 Orks for 360 points.
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
I thought that the NB could use his "blow-back" power to knock the Hormagaunts out of melee range, then let the other Necrons torrent them with gauss weapons while he goes looking for something bigger to play with. Also, as someone said (OP maybe?) he has an AoE ability that can be used to kill hordes of cheap troops looking to tie him up.
And the Deceiver can just leave CC.
It's not so much that they can be tied up by cheap troops... they have methods to avoid that. The problem is that they don't kill enough each turn to make their points back. If you stay and AoE the Hormagaunts, over 2-3 turns you may kill them all. But even then, you're not making your points back, and that's pretty much all you do all combat.
BrotherR
· 4 months ago
I took a nightbringer to hard boys. He was very useful. My bad decision to try and grab too many objectives cost me the first game. But the Nighhtbringer had a good day 2 landraiders, 3 TH/SS term squads, Magnus calgar, Eldar Avatar and Wraithlord.
Josef_N
· 4 months ago
Another thing with C'tan and 5th ed, is the Dawn Of War scenario. Nothing feels good like having a Nightbringer and two squads of warriors set up at the half way point on the table.
Necron_Lord
· 4 months ago
Conversely, nothing is worse than having a lash prince and two squads of plague marines with icons set up at the half way point on the table just waiting to bring the pain to your warriors (if you dare deploy them that is).
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
Don't deploy. Deep Strike Monos close by, and use the Ordnance Blasts to wipe Plague Marines off the map. Then when Warriors come in, use the Portal to bring them into Rapid Fire range, where they can put a lot of wounds on the T5 Demon Prince.
Granted, that's hoping for some luck by having the Monos come in first, but it also works if you stay in Reserve, then bring in Destroyers to shoot the DP from out of his range. Ignore the PMs until the Monos drop in and start the ordnancing, as Necrons don't have much else besides Heavy Destroyers, and HDs just don't kill enough a turn.
Son of Dorn
· 4 months ago
I ran into both the Nightbringer and the Deceiver at a 3000 point tournament a while back, it was interesting. I forgot about the miles of special rules they have. They're a little out there compared to where the game has gone and they're priced way too high, but whenever they pitch-up it's a riot.
I really like these two guys, they're so menacing I feel I have to focus too many resources on bringing them down, and while that's happening the rest of the army creeps up.
Although I did realize a little while later that Sicarius' Talassarian Tempest Blade would be the funniest way to take one of these big guys down.
"Stab you with my super shiv of stabbiness!"
Son of Dorn
· 4 months ago
I had to edit this cause it posted my message three times.
Son of Dorn
· 4 months ago
But I didn't see an erase button, maybe it was an echo?
Dooley
· 4 months ago
I'de Like to see a "GOD" battle Royal! Avatar ( not a "god" I know but close enough) Both C'tans, and all 4 Chaos Greater Deamons ( See Avatar) Go at it!
and maybe a stompa thrown in for fun ;)
Vampire Harlequin
· 4 months ago
I wondered this. Who/what is THE toughest monster/God/ Monster-God in 40K? A massive deity throw-down would be a great thing to see, and I think the C'Tan would do pretty damn well.
thedefenestrator
· 4 months ago
oh, no contest. The Nightbringer would absolutely destroy any other single model in close combat, primarily because he'll always keep his 4++, while all the greater daemons (most likely competition), even the named ones, get wounded on 2s with no saves whatsoever.
The only one with a shot is the Fateweaver, who can zip around avoiding combat and shooting him with Daemonic Gaze/Bolt of Tzeentch, hoping his rerolled 3++ sees him through the mini lascannons. Or he can risk the 6" range of boon of mutation and hope for a 6 on the ole toughness test, then promptly ruin the day of the spawn he made.
Necron_Lord
· 4 months ago
The only greater daemon I wouldn't want to tangle with are greater daemons of nurgle. The noxious touch means that they wound on a 2+, and the C'tan only have a 4+ save, which means that you could get worked if you roll crap on your to hit and saves, which happens to me often enough to be wary of assaulting them. C'tan only hit greater daemons on a 4+, and if you lose the combat, you have to take 4+ saves for every point you lost the combat by, so the potential of taking damage is pretty high.
LordSandwich
· 4 months ago
Nightbringer and GUO hit each other on 4s, Nightbringer wounds on 2s not allowing ANY saves, GUO wounds on 2s while still allowing saves. Nightbringer strikes first and with more attacks, not to mention the shooting he'll pitch in before assault. No, I think we can safely say that GUOs would get their asses handed to them.
thedefenestrator
· 4 months ago
let's mathhammer that one out real quick: assuming the nightbringer gets the charge (likely, since the GUO is going to want to commit sooner or get lascannoned to death, and the nightbringer's faster), he gets his 5 attacks (no bonus attack since the GUO has cloud of flies), which gives 2.5 hits, and 2.0833... wounds. GUO takes 2 wounds.
GUO swings back, hits twice, wounds 1.6667 times, nightbringer saves that down to 0.833... taking 1 wound. GUO makes his no retreat save and this continues for another round or two with the Nightbringer winning with 3 or so wounds left.
Even if you bump to the named GUO, it's just gonna be closer. Ku'gath hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.0833 times, bringer saves it down to 1.04 wounds. Nightbringer will still win, but this time by only 2 wounds or so (since Ku'gath has 6W instead of 5)
Xas
· 4 months ago
guys, make it fair... dont take subpar wannabe deamons but the REAL things.
the greater slaneshi deamon saskiel-something would own any C'tan prolly the hardest due to her invul-ignoring sword and warptime to reroll everything (while the other biggies woudlnt do too bad either with nurgle causing 2 wounds and haveing 10 with -1A for the enemy and khorneboy haveing an enormous 8+d3A!).
bushidoredpanda
· 4 months ago
but could she take down _2_ nightbringers :) That's about the same points cost. And it would be EPIC!
Morgan666
· 4 months ago
Like all the other special characters, the Ctan have their uses and can get killed just like anything else parked in front of a devastator squad. I use Nightbringer as a road block against close quarter opponents and later in the game as a tank hunter. Necrons don’t have anything else to stand up to a Greater Deamon in close combat. In the last apocalypse game I played, Nightbringer killed 2 wounded Bloodthirsters and went on to destroy a traitor baneblade. The Deceiver I tend to have near my Pariahs. The Pariah's soulless ability really allows the Deceivers abilities to take affect.
Necron_Lord
· 4 months ago
I think that C'tan are perfect for Apocalypse games, as they are the only things (besides gauss pylons) which can bring the pain against massed MCs and super-heavy vehicles. My favorite C'tan Apocalypse moment was using flank march to have the Nightbringer assault a defense laser behind which were the whirlwinds for a suppression force. I destroyed it in one turn and rolled apocalyptic explosion which took out about half of the space marines we were fighting while the Nightbringer was unscathed (I made my save). The next turn he destroyed a venerable dreadnought and the marine players threw in the towel. It was a perfect Nightbringer being death incarnate moment!
I agree that they are perfect for fighting all of the greater daemons (except Nurgle ones) and that the Deceiver is better but the Nightbringer looks cooler.
Vampire Harlequin
· 4 months ago
I've used the Nightbringer in games before. This was in 4th ed, and yeah, there's little denying that the points can be better spent elsewhere. However, he was abundle offun to use! I actually brought him along and left my preferred units at home. The game was against a regular Chaos opponent, and he Nightbringer was the unit that made this the only game I won pretty easily! The opponent made some mistakes; he actually tried to hard with the ignore-the-scary-stuff-and-make-him-phase-out tactic, and my etherial deity floated up to his lines and iced a bunch of termies and a predator!
Name
· 4 months ago
I introduced a Nightbringer to my Firedragons in a game. Few melta shots later and ol nighty was gone.
GarethUK
· 4 months ago
this isnt to do with c'tan but its my new necron list, let me know what you guys think.
hq - lord with orb, nightmare shroud, warscythe - 180pts hq - lord with orb, phylactery, staff of light - 155pts
deploys as a phalanx with 1 warrior squad on each flank and one in the front. Flayed ones and Pariahs in the centre lord in each squad.
Pariahs boost Flayed ones in combat. Lord teleports necron "screen" away just before combat.
What do you think? Have i made an glaring screw ups?
also as an aside - my flayed ones charge a unit of 25 ork boyz - pariahs are within soulless range so do the orks use their "fearless" leadership (technically LD 25) or do they test on LD 7 (due to soulless). I would say LD 7 as the orks aren't actually fearless (they simply have lots of them)
UltramarineFan
· 4 months ago
I'm not a necron player nor do I pretend to know a lot about them but looking at that army wouldn't it be really easy to phase out?
GarethUK
· 4 months ago
it should be fine, there are 42 "necrons" in the list so i would have to be knocked down to 9 models before i phase out. 2 res orbs should keep them alive :)
Dooley
· 4 months ago
Its a basic list but you really dont have a "KILL" mechanism/pop unit. I would worry about template slinging Tanks and a faster Assault force. But I guess if/when you get into rapid fire range 20+ Gauss weapons could put a hurtin on things!
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
Personally, I don't like it. 1) It doesn't have melee hitting power. The Pariahs and Lord have strong weapons, but not enough attacks. Flayed Ones are just average in CC. 2) It doesn't have ranged hitting power. Nothing shoots over 24", nothing can Penetrate on tanks or even AV 11 Vehicles to destroy them if they're not open-topped, and you only have one squad that can move and shoot more than 12", and it's your best CC unit at the same time.
Pariahs are usable, but I don't like them in squads of 10. They should be 4-5, IMO, to help with the Leadership penalty, and as a small counter-attack force. They aren't good enough to throw that many points into them. Immortals are, IMO, way better except as a counter-charge unit, and with your plan of "teleporting Warrior squads away from CC", that means that soon as the enemy nears, you pull out the Warriors so the Pariahs don't get screened. Then they get assaulted, and at only one attack each, will lose combat badly. Keep them small and cheap. Get more Immortals.
Flayed Ones are, IMO, bad bad bad. Their attacks just aren't that good. 2 CC attacks each is just a little better than Warriors Rapid Firing, and the Flayed Ones can charge only 6" while the Warriors can Rapid Fire 12". And if you shoot a nasty CC unit, it doesn't get to attack you back... if you assault a nasty CC unit like Berzerkers, Incubi, Genestealers, etc, with Flayed Ones, you're more likely to get wiped than to win combat and wipe them. And they're not Stubborn or Fearless, unlike many of their CC opponents, so if they do lose, they will flee and could get wiped. A Warrior squad would be better.
And at 1500 points, I think 2 Lords are too many points spent on over-priced characters.
Frankly, Necrons are weak, but they do have some decent units. Unfortunately, 2 of them compete for Fast Attack (Destroyers and Scarabs). You can make a Necron army that's not too bad, if you keep the poor units (Lords, Pariahs, Flayed Ones) to a small number, and take the good ones: Monos, Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers, Scarabs, Immortals.
Simplest fixes for your army would be: Drop one Lord, you just need one Rez Orb. Drop Flayed Ones, they do nothing. Add 2 squads of Scarab Swarms, and increase what you have. Turbo boost them alternating in front of your army so they provide cover saves, and also they will absorb a charge and STOP it before it reaches your Pariahs, enabling the Pariahs to counter attack. If the Scarabs get wiped when they do this even better, as it opens the enemy CC unit to being shot, so I wouldn't go with max squads... 5-6 should be big enough to cover the entire army if spread to max width. Maybe 7-8 if you want to spread the army out a bit to avoid blasts.
1 Lord 3x Warriors 2x Immortals 1x Pariahs 3x Scarabs (4 each) 3x Heavy Destroyer (1 each)
GarethUK
· 4 months ago
i see what you guys mean, and i'm aware of not having much shooting/ranged anti-tank.
the problem i have with the list suggested (thanks for the critique blacksky) is that its pretty much a "standard" necron list that you see all over the place, i wanted to try something out using the less common units and go for the all-infantry theme.
Will def have a look at it after a few games and see what i should change/drop. I think a lord probably will get dumped but lets see.
Thanks for the ideas tho guys
BlackSly
· 4 months ago
Think about it in terms of game theory. What are the characteristics of infantry units in most games? Slow. Tough and/or cheap. Sometimes good shooting, rarely while moving. Could be strong in melee, but have to be because they don't pick and choose, or initiate melee.
Now, that leaves you open to the following weaknesses: 1) strong CC units that can assault from more than 12" away. That's most of them. 2) shooting armies that have range on you, because you don't fight well at range, and you don't have the mobility to get to them before you get shot up a lot.
How do you compete? Well, to negate the weakness where the opponent can CC you at will, you almost have to use Monos or Scarabs to block charges, or Destroyers so that you're more mobile than they are. You're not interested in Destroyers or Monos, so that leaves Scarabs. Unfortunately, they're the only blocking units that Necrons have.
To negate the shooting weakness, you need to be able to move fast enough to engage the enemy, or else to outshoot them at long range (since you're too slow to close to within 12" against most armies if they want to avoid it). So that means Destroyers (you don't want), Scarabs (to engage enemy shooters), or Immortals (mobile firepower, shorter range than Destroyers but stronger per point).
So for a viable army, that leaves you building on a core of Immortals and Warriors, supported by Scarabs or Destroyers. Immortals alone can give you enough shooting to make the enemy have to CC you, but if you only run Immortals and Warriors, you're too vulnerable to CC. Flayed Ones and Pariahs are not good enough to cover that hole. So I think you really need Scarabs or Destroyers. You could dump the Destroyers if you want, especially if you give the Scarabs disruption fields. But if you drop both Scarabs and Destroyers, you're really limited because the other options to defend against CC, Flayed Ones and Pariahs, aren't good enough in their role.
Pariahs, BTW, are more of a Terminator-type squad, the shooty Termies, not the CC Termies. So they're usable in CC but hardly focused upon it.
Now, if you're really determined to run a infantry-only army, the only way I can see is to run lots of Immortals and Pariahs. They give you mobile shooting, and without it, you have nothing you can do against a mobile army. That still leaves you vulnerable to a CC army, though, and I'm not sure if you can do anything about it other than sacrifice a squad of Warriors as blockers, and hope that you counter-charge strongly enough. The good news is that you can run 3x Warriors, 2x Immortals (total 15), and 10 Pariahs in 1500 points. That's 25 Gauss Blaster shots, and that's enough firepower to actually dent a good amount of armies. I'm still worried about being hit hard in CC, but if you can survive and lose only one squad of Warriors, you may be fine.
MadDogMike
· 4 months ago
The Deceiver is better than Nightbringer overall. His relocate unit(s) post-deployment ability makes him do something in any game even if the enemy somehow avoids him, and his ability to instantly jump out of CC at the beginning of the enemy's assault phase means he NEVER fights in CC unless you want him to (moving 2d6 in any direction means an opponent charging him with a Bloodthirster or Skulltaker or whatnot is merely springboarding the Deceiver towards wherever you're heading in the first place while he can only consolidate). Add in his ability to force Morale/Pinning checks even on Fearless models as well as cause any nearby enemies fighting Necrons in CC to only hit on 6s (not TOO useful, but he can at least make any of the Necron close combat unit choices somewhat worth something even when out of range to join the fight), and it's amusing he actually costs LESS than the Nightbringer.
Maxxximus
· 3 months ago
im new to necrons. i have played two games and i just had to field nightbringer. i am a romantic player, so if i play undead sci fi robots, i must have the death it self in my army. the death was dead in the first round :D in one hand, it soaked every heawy weapon shoot for on round, on the other hand 360 ponts can be spent better than on one round heawy weapon shield.
so here is my question... how to get nightbringer, best unharmed, to assalut? i think, one way is to cover him behind a monolith, but they are very slow together. any ideas?
acheron
· 3 months ago
Ive seen my buddy play with his C'tan crawling behind his monolith it is bigger than the modle so it blocks LOS.
alltho slow he has been pretty sucsesfull in makeing it "the thing you have to deal with" late game and myself and outher players have lost precious held objectives do to this style of play.
All Comments
this was during 4th edition, and at turn 5 his razorback was shaken and weaponless, but was within 12" of the deceiver, so in a fit of "might as well" my friend tank-shocked the deceiver.
the result was rather funny, the deceiver scored only 1 crew stunned result, and thought he'd managed to stop it, until he realized the razorback had extra armor. 'squish' goes the deceiver, and a cheer goes up from the crew at having run over a god.
Now I'm wondering if they released it in Blue Ray..........
Could be wrong, loooong time since I played against the lill bots of doom and their gods.
But it's still a lot of points for something that the enemy can often ignore, or just shoot down with lascannon/missile launcher fire.
Nightbringer is worse. All it brings is "killy", and not enough of it, and practically all in CC. Yes, it's killy in CC... but not at range, and it's vulnerable to ranged fire unless you hide it behind a Monolith. Which slows it down, and forces you into a lot of points on non-Necron models.
those can spell quick death for the c'tan. the ranged versions tend to be more dangerous than the close combat versions, mainly for their ability to strike without retaliation. i loathe the thought of the drop pod sternguard popping a c'tan in one round of shooting.
much of what you have said is spot on. the nightbringer is perfectly useful simply running down your opponent's throat. the pocket lascannon is neat, but so-so.
the golden boy makes for nice ways to mess with your opponent. but with the proliferation of high leadership, re-rolls and fearless units he is less neat on the table top. pariahs help to fix this problem, but that puts two very expensive non-necron units on the table. granted, they will soak lots of firepower. but that is still an expensive bullet magnet.
in previous games with the c'tan i simply run the nightbringer straight towards my opponent's front lines as a distraction. it forces them to not shoot at my units that contribute to phase out. the c'tan and monolith preform the same function in my army. they are a distraction from phase out, and no major loss when destroyed. yes, you can ignore them, but eventually they reach a point where you can not ignore them. particularly the c'tan. the assault move and consolidation move after assault allow you to move much farther than you normally would once you can smash into their lines.
Pull that front squad back with deceive and you've got yourself a good amount of distance that assault unit has to cover.
Many Necron players run to the Nightbringer (because it looks cooler), but both Necrons are roughly the same in CC, and it is the Deceiver's auxiliary abilities which make it better.
When I played in the Necro 06', I learned that Dark Lances function the same as sniper weapons. Ever since then, I never feared Necron Gods at all as a DE player.
Oddly enough, the only model type my Archon/Archite would never ever fight in CC is the Necron God model. So I avoid those two like the plague with my HQ. Funny that the army I fear the least, has the models my Archon fears the most lol.
I got him cuz he looks cool and its just fun to field Death incarnate with your robot zombies from outer space. I probibly wont use him much though. Our local crew tends to frown on all Special Characters as cheesy. And I don't like the massive point sink.
I do hope that the scuttlebutt I've heard about alternate uses for him in 40K come true Its just to cool a modle to never field.
Well, after carving a path to, and capturing the Eldar base we all learned quickly that deepstriking Nightbringers are pretty close to OP most of the time. Because it was all friendly though I decided to give the ability to another unit in most games... well, some games.
Because I learned real quick that, like Divergent_Reality stated, these guys are just as susceptible to sniper fire as anyone else.
But, pairing C'tan up with Wraiths is also great to get a whole crew of "walk through wall"ers out there. It's just cool.
Etheric Tempest is fun to just push little guys around after using Gaze of Fire, which is great if swarmed.
Don't have the Deceiver, but I think that (without a campaign rule deepstrike asset ability) he is the more versatile and valuable of the two, but I play Orks now so I won't know till I see one on the other side of the field ;-)!
With his pig sticker sure.... But do what I did when I played against a necron player in my lgs (before he sold off his necrons)...
Drop the God's LD to 2 with a PBS, and deep strike your Callidus, and auto kill him with a single flamer attack.
Of course he has his 4++ save, but my friend failed that, and that was it. One dead God.
So yes, the Callidus is worthless using his little dagger, but he makes up for it by blowing the God's brains out with his Neural Shredder :)
The Shredder does not include the line "replace the target's Toughness with it's leadership" what it does say is "rather use the target's leadership.." So the flow would be:
Template attack C'Tan = Hit
Use modified leadership instead of Toughness to determine Wound = Wounds on 2+
If a wound is inflicted, make saves as normal = 4++ save
If unsaved wound, compare Strength of the Weapon to Target's Toughness = 8 v. 8 = No Instant Death.
You are just determining the wound. Nothing more.
All my assassins are males since they are converted skeletons in my skeletal IG army :)
I guess they could easily be female skeletons too.
Personally I want a female Vindicare and a female Eversor.
I argued for just gluing some scarabs on the surfboard and calling it good ('cause scarabs on the base makes anything Necron-y), but the guys insisted on modeling it up with swirling ribbons on wires holding him up in an awesome floating god of death pose and priming and painting him. Looked pretty cool. Can't find a picture, sorry.
Anyway, I thought I had read some rumors of Necrodermis options for Necron Lords, so slightly less powerful versions of the current Nightbringer and Deceiver models. There was some fluff along too about the Lords going a little batty and thinking they /were/ the gods. It'd be cool if that was extended to Wraith lords, too.
Then there could be official datasheets for the /real/ C'Tan gods, huge nasty Apoc-scale game-breakers.
now i suspect that the 5th ed codex will probably ignore all the fluff they outlined in the current codex and make them uber-powerful apocalypse units-o-doom, but ultimately that wasn't the background they outlined in the codex.
Actually, that's the rumors I'd been hearing about the C'Tan for a while. And it could be reasoned that they would get more powerful the longer they have been out of stasis, running around killing people and such.
Thats the main thing that hit the Deciever. Other than that, I love everything about C'Tan
That's not boasting by the way: I run an ork horde and lose to most people. I guess being bad against everyone else made me good for taking on the Necrons. :)
Anyway; my question is how does the Flayed Ones' Terrifying Visage ability interact with the Fearless rule, if at all? It says take a leadership test, not a morale check, so it seems that fearless troops are not immune to it. Which seems weird as they are immune to everything else terrifying and troops with a better leadership are more resistant to the power, so you'd think fearless troops would be the most resistant.
I checked the BRB and Necron faqs, but couldn't find an answer.
As for the article: interesting thoughts on the C'tan... I'm glad I haven't had to face one yet! I'm not really a fan of special characters in most games, so I personally wouldn't find it much fun to play against a C'tan, even if I could beat it...
This is correct. Fearless units are required to make LD tests like any normal unit, as long as the LD test isn't a morale or pinning test.
- edit -
@muras
Looks like I need to get the updated version myself..
Regardless, my answer was correct as far as fearless versus LD rolls are concerned. Just not with the Visage :(
I can't remember the name of the Flayed Ones' abiltiy. It's not 'Terrifying visage' (like the daemon power), but it is something to that effect (unless this is what's been updated in the reprint). So what does the rule you're telling me about actually say? Because if it specifically says 'terrifying visage' then I guess fearless troops are still not immune.
I had a feeling that I'd read somewhere that fearless troops were immune to this ability, but I can't remember where I read it or on what grounds they were immune.
I did love the time a Blood Angels player charged the Ctan with full 10 models only to realize that after the first round (with furious charge) that his assault squad could not even wound the Nightbringer (no hidden power fist).
Personally, they should lower the points for the Ctan for the Necrons update OR at least make the Nightbringer an utter badass, with like 10 attacks or something to that effect. I would much rather have 60 Orks for 360 points.
And the Deceiver can just leave CC.
It's not so much that they can be tied up by cheap troops... they have methods to avoid that. The problem is that they don't kill enough each turn to make their points back. If you stay and AoE the Hormagaunts, over 2-3 turns you may kill them all. But even then, you're not making your points back, and that's pretty much all you do all combat.
Granted, that's hoping for some luck by having the Monos come in first, but it also works if you stay in Reserve, then bring in Destroyers to shoot the DP from out of his range. Ignore the PMs until the Monos drop in and start the ordnancing, as Necrons don't have much else besides Heavy Destroyers, and HDs just don't kill enough a turn.
I really like these two guys, they're so menacing I feel I have to focus too many resources on bringing them down, and while that's happening the rest of the army creeps up.
Although I did realize a little while later that Sicarius' Talassarian Tempest Blade would be the funniest way to take one of these big guys down.
"Stab you with my super shiv of stabbiness!"
Avatar ( not a "god" I know but close enough)
Both C'tans,
and all 4 Chaos Greater Deamons ( See Avatar) Go at it!
and maybe a stompa thrown in for fun ;)
The only one with a shot is the Fateweaver, who can zip around avoiding combat and shooting him with Daemonic Gaze/Bolt of Tzeentch, hoping his rerolled 3++ sees him through the mini lascannons. Or he can risk the 6" range of boon of mutation and hope for a 6 on the ole toughness test, then promptly ruin the day of the spawn he made.
GUO swings back, hits twice, wounds 1.6667 times, nightbringer saves that down to 0.833... taking 1 wound. GUO makes his no retreat save and this continues for another round or two with the Nightbringer winning with 3 or so wounds left.
Even if you bump to the named GUO, it's just gonna be closer. Ku'gath hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.0833 times, bringer saves it down to 1.04 wounds. Nightbringer will still win, but this time by only 2 wounds or so (since Ku'gath has 6W instead of 5)
the greater slaneshi deamon saskiel-something would own any C'tan prolly the hardest due to her invul-ignoring sword and warptime to reroll everything (while the other biggies woudlnt do too bad either with nurgle causing 2 wounds and haveing 10 with -1A for the enemy and khorneboy haveing an enormous 8+d3A!).
I agree that they are perfect for fighting all of the greater daemons (except Nurgle ones) and that the Deceiver is better but the Nightbringer looks cooler.
hq - lord with orb, nightmare shroud, warscythe - 180pts
hq - lord with orb, phylactery, staff of light - 155pts
troops - 10 warriors - 180pts
troops - 10 warriors - 180pts
troops - 10 warriors - 180pts
Elites - 10 pariahs - 360pts
Elites - 10 flayed ones - 180pts
F A - 3 scarab swarms - 48pts
total 1493pts.
deploys as a phalanx with 1 warrior squad on each flank and one in the front. Flayed ones and Pariahs in the centre lord in each squad.
Pariahs boost Flayed ones in combat. Lord teleports necron "screen" away just before combat.
What do you think? Have i made an glaring screw ups?
also as an aside - my flayed ones charge a unit of 25 ork boyz - pariahs are within soulless range so do the orks use their "fearless" leadership (technically LD 25) or do they test on LD 7 (due to soulless). I would say LD 7 as the orks aren't actually fearless (they simply have lots of them)
1) It doesn't have melee hitting power. The Pariahs and Lord have strong weapons, but not enough attacks. Flayed Ones are just average in CC.
2) It doesn't have ranged hitting power. Nothing shoots over 24", nothing can Penetrate on tanks or even AV 11 Vehicles to destroy them if they're not open-topped, and you only have one squad that can move and shoot more than 12", and it's your best CC unit at the same time.
Pariahs are usable, but I don't like them in squads of 10. They should be 4-5, IMO, to help with the Leadership penalty, and as a small counter-attack force. They aren't good enough to throw that many points into them. Immortals are, IMO, way better except as a counter-charge unit, and with your plan of "teleporting Warrior squads away from CC", that means that soon as the enemy nears, you pull out the Warriors so the Pariahs don't get screened. Then they get assaulted, and at only one attack each, will lose combat badly. Keep them small and cheap. Get more Immortals.
Flayed Ones are, IMO, bad bad bad. Their attacks just aren't that good. 2 CC attacks each is just a little better than Warriors Rapid Firing, and the Flayed Ones can charge only 6" while the Warriors can Rapid Fire 12". And if you shoot a nasty CC unit, it doesn't get to attack you back... if you assault a nasty CC unit like Berzerkers, Incubi, Genestealers, etc, with Flayed Ones, you're more likely to get wiped than to win combat and wipe them. And they're not Stubborn or Fearless, unlike many of their CC opponents, so if they do lose, they will flee and could get wiped. A Warrior squad would be better.
And at 1500 points, I think 2 Lords are too many points spent on over-priced characters.
Frankly, Necrons are weak, but they do have some decent units. Unfortunately, 2 of them compete for Fast Attack (Destroyers and Scarabs). You can make a Necron army that's not too bad, if you keep the poor units (Lords, Pariahs, Flayed Ones) to a small number, and take the good ones: Monos, Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers, Scarabs, Immortals.
Simplest fixes for your army would be:
Drop one Lord, you just need one Rez Orb.
Drop Flayed Ones, they do nothing.
Add 2 squads of Scarab Swarms, and increase what you have. Turbo boost them alternating in front of your army so they provide cover saves, and also they will absorb a charge and STOP it before it reaches your Pariahs, enabling the Pariahs to counter attack. If the Scarabs get wiped when they do this even better, as it opens the enemy CC unit to being shot, so I wouldn't go with max squads... 5-6 should be big enough to cover the entire army if spread to max width. Maybe 7-8 if you want to spread the army out a bit to avoid blasts.
1 Lord
3x Warriors
2x Immortals
1x Pariahs
3x Scarabs (4 each)
3x Heavy Destroyer (1 each)
the problem i have with the list suggested (thanks for the critique blacksky) is that its pretty much a "standard" necron list that you see all over the place, i wanted to try something out using the less common units and go for the all-infantry theme.
Will def have a look at it after a few games and see what i should change/drop. I think a lord probably will get dumped but lets see.
Thanks for the ideas tho guys
What are the characteristics of infantry units in most games?
Slow. Tough and/or cheap. Sometimes good shooting, rarely while moving. Could be strong in melee, but have to be because they don't pick and choose, or initiate melee.
Now, that leaves you open to the following weaknesses:
1) strong CC units that can assault from more than 12" away. That's most of them.
2) shooting armies that have range on you, because you don't fight well at range, and you don't have the mobility to get to them before you get shot up a lot.
How do you compete? Well, to negate the weakness where the opponent can CC you at will, you almost have to use Monos or Scarabs to block charges, or Destroyers so that you're more mobile than they are. You're not interested in Destroyers or Monos, so that leaves Scarabs. Unfortunately, they're the only blocking units that Necrons have.
To negate the shooting weakness, you need to be able to move fast enough to engage the enemy, or else to outshoot them at long range (since you're too slow to close to within 12" against most armies if they want to avoid it). So that means Destroyers (you don't want), Scarabs (to engage enemy shooters), or Immortals (mobile firepower, shorter range than Destroyers but stronger per point).
So for a viable army, that leaves you building on a core of Immortals and Warriors, supported by Scarabs or Destroyers. Immortals alone can give you enough shooting to make the enemy have to CC you, but if you only run Immortals and Warriors, you're too vulnerable to CC. Flayed Ones and Pariahs are not good enough to cover that hole. So I think you really need Scarabs or Destroyers. You could dump the Destroyers if you want, especially if you give the Scarabs disruption fields. But if you drop both Scarabs and Destroyers, you're really limited because the other options to defend against CC, Flayed Ones and Pariahs, aren't good enough in their role.
Pariahs, BTW, are more of a Terminator-type squad, the shooty Termies, not the CC Termies. So they're usable in CC but hardly focused upon it.
Now, if you're really determined to run a infantry-only army, the only way I can see is to run lots of Immortals and Pariahs. They give you mobile shooting, and without it, you have nothing you can do against a mobile army. That still leaves you vulnerable to a CC army, though, and I'm not sure if you can do anything about it other than sacrifice a squad of Warriors as blockers, and hope that you counter-charge strongly enough. The good news is that you can run 3x Warriors, 2x Immortals (total 15), and 10 Pariahs in 1500 points. That's 25 Gauss Blaster shots, and that's enough firepower to actually dent a good amount of armies. I'm still worried about being hit hard in CC, but if you can survive and lose only one squad of Warriors, you may be fine.
the death was dead in the first round :D
in one hand, it soaked every heawy weapon shoot for on round, on the other hand 360 ponts can be spent better than on one round heawy weapon shield.
so here is my question...
how to get nightbringer, best unharmed, to assalut?
i think, one way is to cover him behind a monolith, but they are very slow together. any ideas?
it is bigger than the modle so it blocks LOS.
alltho slow he has been pretty sucsesfull in makeing it "the thing you have to deal with" late game and myself and outher players have lost precious held objectives do to this style of play.
im a fan of them
but my 10,000 pts of CSM have my heart.