-
Website
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/ -
Original page
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/40k-dreaming-of-commorragh.html -
Subscribe
All Comments -
Community
-
-
Top Commenters
-
Popular Threads
All Comments
We have a bunch of twisted eldar who have been alive and fighting since the fall (because let's face it, 2 DE aren't going to expose their weaknesses to each other long enough to procreate) and yet they play more like horde armies.
I don't want to see them as Chaos Space Eldar, a lite version of CSM, but if they're going to stay as a more individually expendable army I'd rather see DE as leaders and HQ with more grotesques or indentured gladiator warriors as servants...
But I'm sure many others will disagree
2. No more funky rules (shadowfield, wyches, grotesques etc.).
3. No more 0-1 units.
4. Increase wych power level to match that of Howling Banshees.
5. Better Talos with no more funky split-fire tail rules.
6. Newer, better vehicles.
Wych power level depends on whether they're Troops or Elite. I think they'll be Troops, just like the WD update, and Incubus squads will fill the Elite close combat niche.
Make the Talos Sting work like the Necron Monolith's Gauss Flux Arc, and it becomes a much more useful weapon for a close-combat machine. The Talos could be an awesome frontal-attack line breaker, to contrast with the DE's normal hit & run skirmish style. Something for your enemy to freak out about while the rest of your army gets into position.
If any of you 40k players haven't seen it yet, you really are missing a gem. Don't bother with the rules, but instead grab the High-Elves book, and the Dark Elves book, and read the fluff sections of both in chronological order, going back and forth between them.
Gav pulled off a great job of turning what could have been "evil ice-land elves" into a proud, vain, and dangerous culture, that is a twisted parrallel to their High Elves brothers.
Dark Eldar should get the same treatment; not just a set of small sadistic pirate bands, but an entire self-sustained culture. A network of major cities in the webway, major ruling houses, all the scheming, twisted politics and backstabbing, and mighty warfleets to strike fear into any local target outside of the most fortified worlds.
I want to see things like dark avatars, fallen aspect temples, and a proud, vain history of this culture's quest for survival that is a evil version of thier craftworlder's path.
That would get me excited. (and much better miniatures)
As far as the actual rules in the army book goes, the single biggest thing I want to see is variation that allows for different styles of play. I know the current book is competitive, but man o man it has to be the most boring book I have ever read. I mean its "oh..I can have warriors with raiders...and...er...oh i guess that it".
everyone is worried about their lack of fluff but i think GW has just approached it wrong; they arent random cartoon villains; their souls are forfeit to slaanesh, so to save themselves, they feed other souls to him/her instead. they are in NO WAY chaos worshippers, its just self preservation.
basically they need to loose the stupid hats, bondage gear and outrageous spikes. its over the top and noone takes it seriously. Dark Elves army book and new DE art stepping in the right direction.
they should get psykers- just because they don't have soulstones doesn't mean they're any less psychic - right now space wolves are apparently the best psykers in the galaxy?
as many new models as can be managed - plus alot of other units should be available as troops - ghoulio is right about carts full of warriors being their only option.
In the DE fluff there is evidence of some aspects going rogue or becomming corrupt. Incubi for example are the rumored brainchild of a fallen Pheonix Lord.
You have to remember that the techonology base is going to be the same as the eldar. So the same basic items/concepts are going to be found in both armies. I'm not saying that they should have just gemini opposites of everything Bright/Dark lance idea, but they are going to have obivous similarities between the two.
Instead of Dark Avatars perhaps give them access to a Keeper of Secrets power house HQ choice with some sort of "dangerous alliance" rule effecting KPs if the thing lives.
Space wolves are powerful psychers but Jaws doesn't put them at the top of the list in my book. IMO Fortune, Doom and Lash (although a strong argument could be made for Weaken Resolve) are the 3 best powers in the game. As DE have ties to both sources of these powers I hope they go totally over the top with DE psychic powers and add an entirely new level of fluff to the race.
Instead of the controlled mastery of the Eldar I'd like to see Raw power from DE psychers on a level that endangers friend and foe alike. A whole new class of DE that wields powers which cause everyone involved in a combat (friend and foe) to re-roll to hits or Re-roll to wounds would be nice. Powers which cause both sides LD to drop so the winner has a greater chance to sweep. Powers which give both sides an extra attack per model involved. Maybe even radius effects on these powers.
That's the sort of thing that would really get me excited about DE.
Eg: In one of the timelines it mentions the Dark Eldar attacking and crippling one of the Imperial Navy Sector Shipyards. Any race that can cripple a Sector HQ is definately a galactic threat.
Or the attack on the Eldar Exodite World from Planetstrike. They were driven off but posioned the world, so every Eldar on the planet died.
I'm hoping the ability to destroy entire worlds means the DE fluff is finally getting written properly ;)
Humans and Orks are simply everywhere
Eldar have the massive craftworlds, so they can pop up anywhere and they have a big presence.
Chaos occupy a huge ball of death in the top left of the galaxy, and can also rip through wherever they like into the real world.
Necrons can pop up anywhere because, hey, your planet has Necron Tombs on it. Sucks to be you.
Tyranids can also show up anywhere because thats what they do.
Tau have pretty much the entire right side of the galaxy to themselves.
But Dark Eldar...They have one city. Somewhere near the Eye. Their range and reach is considerably less than the other races, and they're overshadowed by Chaos all the time. They're just...Not as threatening a presence as everyone else.
Hell, they're described as "merely piratical raiders, something of small concern compared to the Orks, Tyranids or Necrons."
Dark Eldar need to be more than a bunch of spiky evil Eldar who raid the odd poorly defended Imperial settlement. If they're ever going to be taken seriously, they must be a serious threat in the fluff. A galaxy wide threat, not a single one at a time settlement threat.
Some of the female wych sculpts and the Lelith Hesperax model would be worth keeping, the rest of the model range needs a complete overhaul.
Most importantly, they are Dark Eldar, so make them feel like Eldar. A warped and twisted Eldar yes, but they should still be Eldar. The craftworld Eldar rejected the pleasure cults which gave birth to Slaanesh, while the Dark Eldar are the survivors of the pleasure cults. I get that, but such a traumatic event doesn't seemed to have affected the DE, I personally think they are TOO sybaritic. Their thirst for souls should be marked by desperation to survive, not over the top hedonism.
As to rules, I really can't say, its been eight years since I stopped playing DE.
DE need extensive work to make them interesting, if they didn't GW wouldn't have let them die for ten years. They flopped, end of story. The fluff isn't all bad by any means, but it needs work. The race needs to have a POINT to exist, a reason to BE Dark Eldar. At the moment they are just spiky pointy eared b-grade sci fi space pirates. Yawn.
They need to be different from craftworld Eldar, of course. I'm not saying they should be like normal Eldar, but they ARE the same species. Dark Eldar should be a warped mirror of the craftworld Eldar, nothing about the army gives me that impression. The regular Eldar have the whole 'dying race' vibe going, what do the Dark Eldar have? Oh, they eat souls like Slaanesh. yey.
The fluff will admit is my personal obsession, GW could easily get away with just re-doing the model range and rules, and if that makes them a more varied and viable army I will be fine with that.
This is all my opinion, I never said it was the only one nor do I think you should not have yours.
Incidentally the best looking Dark Eldar amy I have ever seen was converted from regular Eldar. So, so much better.
Also if you read into the DE background more you'd see the whole fact that ommorragh is NOT an eldar craftworld, the eldar pissed off in their craftworlds to escape from the twisted awesome that their race was headed towards.
You said in the original post to redo the entire background - yeah okay, lets do that and whilst your there we'll remove the whole birth of Slaanesh as well because guess where Slaanesh came from?
I don't mind a good chunk of the DE models, a chunk need to be done and Wyches need to be in plastic for sure! More units across the board because currently there's one or two per FOC choice and that's not fantastic and whilst not all DE armies are the same they are limited in what they can do overall army list wise.
Incidentally, the best looking DE army I saw was made from the DE Warrior sprues converted using plastics from all over the shop and having a look of capturinga nd fighting and slaving as a whole. Your opinion on the models is your opinion. Trying to emphasise it after you made a whole bunch of bogus comments that disregard the fact that DE have persisted and persisted in a 100% official capacity in GW's history and across 3 editions of the game including the revised codex because hey, they weren't just released and ignored as you claim.
Bah,. why am I responding. it's 4:40am.
DE are great background wise, some of their models need a redo, they could do with being pulled into line with 5th more (Oh to the guy way above who claimed Dark Lances on foot warriors at 10pts was over priced lets look at Multi Melta's in Marine units at 10pts and see that you have no grounding across the whole game), more units and choices available and more special characters. But hey, we all know that this is how the codicies in 5th have been done and we all know GW are going to revamp them and make them more appealing again hence why the codex release has been put off again and again because teh community wants to see it.
Oh one last thing. To everyone who says that the DE are a failure and they should just be dropped - just because you started playing in the past 5 or 6 years and no one in your area plays the army and you've not even heard of them before now or only in passing, doesn't mean the army is a failure, nor that it needs to be redone completely, and massive chunks of its background and rules modified and redone. I mean look at Chaos dwarves, 3 editions on and that beautiful 2 page Ravening Hordes list still keeks the crap out of armies with army lists 10 times the size and a magic item list that goes over 45 pages as opposed to 11 items 4 of which are lord choice only or whatever it is. Fantasy yes, but exacly the same thing with the DE. If the Army is such a failure, why is this discussion even going on at such a place as BoLS let alone the rest of the world-wide-meta game. You'd think by some of the comments that we were talking about the Zoats, Fishmen, or Squat...
Auretious Taak.
How many sodding times to you want me to state its just my opinion, and that you are welcome to have a different one? This is an open thread after all.
I know commorragh isnt a craftworld, I never said it was. But Dark Eldar are still Eldar, or else they wouldnt be called Dark Eldar. the problem is they aren't really Dark eldar, they are 70s Camp Bondage Gimp Eldar, in my opinion. I get the whole consuming souls to save themselves from Slaanesh thing, thats great. Except that it is barely mentioned and is lost in all the gimpness. The feel of the army should be tinged with desperation, you should get the feel that these are Eldar who have pursued a terrible path to survival, as equally haunted by the birth of slaanesh as the Eldar, that behind the violence is terror. As it stands the whole army looks and feels like it came out of a 70s sci fi sexploitation film.
You can argue otherwise, but the simple fact is they flopped. The models were unpopular, they failed to sell. I'm glad you like them, but very few others did. I liked the fluff (I still like it, I just think it could be built upon significantly) and I even like some of the models. But this is a thread about what can be done to improve the Dark Eldar, in our opinions. I've given mine, you've just basically said 'keep things the same but in plastic'. Good luck with that, but personally after the relaunch of Dark Eldar I'd rather have more than six people in Britain playing them.
*cough*
Well. To be honest, not much. I've seen some very intensive and thought-through 'codex revisals' and other such projects, full of new units and special rules. As far as I'm concerned, fixing the units that we have would be just as good as adding new stuff, and would add some real variety to the lists. I really feel that I could make the entire codex playable in a single page of addendums and added rules. Give me one page in a White Dwarf, and all of Commorragh will rejoice... *sigh*... but anyway, you want a rundown, here it be...
Army Rules:
Piratical Raiders; same as codex (always attackers, if applicable), plus you may not Seize the Initiative vs a Dark Eldar army. Perhaps even going so far as rolling 2 dice and picking the highest... maybe not, but some edge here would represent the way we fight and appear from nowhere.
Slave Taking; same as current, adding that if you wipe a unit you may roll for that turn's casualties (slaves on a 4+). And yeah, it'd be nice if it did something other than bragging rights.... but you'd better believe that I have an ongoing slave list anyway.
HQ -
Lords/Heamy; solid as far as I'm concerned, though I'd like more Heamy-specific weapons and wargear
Incubi; down to 20 pts each, Incubi Master cost reduced, add equivalent of Exarch Powers (can't remember the 3 I came up with, but example I do remember was Bodyguard; incubi may be assigned 2 wounds each before the Archon - or other joined character - takes a wound)
Elites
Wyches; Grenades as standard, swap out the drug result of Crazed for something useful (ie; not a hindrance under current rules)
Grotesques; down to 13 points
Mandrakes; down to 13 points, Furious Assault
Troops
I'd say go a tad cheaper, simply because troops in general have seen a lower cost/boost in abilities with 5th. Perhaps some special rule to mess with enemy Ld (or an army-rule) just for something shiny - DE need to bring psych warfare back to the table.
also, Splinter Rifle: S4 ap - 18" assault 2
Fast:
Hellions - down to 16 pts (combined with the gun change, they should work as general assault-style troopers). Also get rid of Crazed in favor of something useful.
Reavers - give them 2 CCW standard (they're Wyches, afterall). Scout as well.
Heavy:
Scourges - 15 pts base, weapon upgrades 15 pts each, USR Relentless, and Soul Seeker Ammo for the entire squad, useable with any splinter weapon.
Misc:
Raiders - 40 points stock, can buy Scout rule for 10 points or so (Ravagers get it for 15/20).
More Ld-messing wargear. Perhaps cheaper Terrorfexes to make them more commonplace, or a cheap bit o' gear to impose a -1 while in combat (or just army special rule, etc). Make Ld count for something.
That's the gist of it.. give me that, and I'll give you a fully fieldable codex. I don't even care if I get a 2nd troops choice. You will all still feed the aching hole that is the pit where my soul used to be.
AT
I agree with making the weak units better (Grotesques, Scourges, Talos, etc), but let's also look at the strong units and see if they're not too strong. Wyches shouldn't get free stuff at the same points, Raiders are like Lascannon Sentinels... but with BS4 and 12" move and Transport ability, for the grand price of 5 points. Yes, they're harder to hide, but they're also more able to block LOS and movement for the enemy.
Warrior Squads should be cheaper but lose double weapons.
Wyches should include always-taken upgrades like Wych Weapons and maybe grenades as part of their base cost, but not necessarily free.
Grotesques should get FNP and be cheaper.
Talos should get better stats or better shooting, and fix its CC rule against vehicles.
Scourges should get cheaper Splinter Cannons, and either Relentless for the Dark Lances or give them some different weapon that they can use while moving.
Hellions should be cheaper overall, and bikes should be cheaper or get 3+ saves.
Warrior squads, I don't think should lose the amount of weapons, but should be restricted in teh same manner as other units (no more 10-man sniper squads - maybe one heavy and special for the first 10, 5 more gives you one more, full squad the 4th). Same idea with Raider squads. I hate min-maxing, and run 10-man raider squads and 15-man foot squads anyway.
Why do I say drop the cost on Raiders? Because every equivalent transport has gone down, pretty much - look at what Rhino's and Ork Trukks cost. Yes, I fly, and yes, I'm faster, and I should (and am happy to) pay for these, but at this point I am paying more comparatively because of the new general points level. Transports are cheaper/better in new codexes; marines are toting grenades for free, orks and guardsmen are cheaper. Is it so hard to think that Wyches could be equipped with Grenades? They are elites, afterall, and I don't think that this would put them way over the head of everything else.
AT
One thing I do like about your ideas is probably the simplest, most innocuous part. Splinter Rifles. I never hear people talking about them, but they should be some kind of Assault weapon, not Rapid Fire. I think simply changing it to S3 AP5 12" A2 is more likely, but S4 would be nice.
There's one thing I really don't think works well, and that's your idea that an opponent can't seize the initiative from the Dark Eldar. That's on the same ridiculous scale as those people that believe their Ultramarine units can't die because they're gods among men. The Dark Eldar are not the single greatest tacticians in the universe. They're not immune to bluffs and traps. They're probably more susceptible to it because of their greed and lust for the slaughter at hand. I wouldn't go so far as to say the opponent seizes the initiative on a 5+, but that seems more fluffy than never being able to. That doesn't even cover how you'd be messing with opponent characters. You should never, ever, be able to completely negate an ability an opponent paid points for. You should be able to hinder, but that's all. If you can't seize the initiative from a Dark Eldar player, Sicarius' Surprise Attack! ability becomes useless, for example. I like the idea of the Dark Eldar being able to roll twice and take the highest when they're rolling for seizing the initiative, though. The best way to show how fast the Dark Eldar assault is, would be to throw the option to buy the Scout rule on every unit.
Also, Piratical Raiders needs to be dropped completely if a new dex is made. I know that doesn't really affect modifying the current dex, but it still needs to be left behind. It's dumbfounding to think that some people believe the Dark Eldar could never be defensive, that they are never hunted by other factions or races. It even goes so far as to say, and I'm paraphrasing here, "This is a narrow view of the race, this book only represents raiding forces". The race needs to be fleshed out and made whole. It needs it's own place in the universe, rather than only it's raiding parties having a place in the universe.
Slave Taking shouldn't have an effect on the game any more than it already does, which is to allow you to finish off models if you get unlucky and fail your sweeping advance. That's a pretty nice *mechanical* bonus you get there. That you say it should do something other than allow bragging rights shows you don't understand your army as well as you might like to think. I think Slave Taking works perfectly as it is if you assume that advancing and wiping out a unit by moving further than them equates to a successful sweeping advance. It gives a minor mechanical advantage that demonstrates how brutally efficient the Dark Eldar can be if they get the upper hand, and also gives players a mechanic by which they can keep track of their army's fluff.
Why I would put forth the idea of not seizing vs DE is their style of fighting. Largely indisputed Webway mastery allows them to pop up nearly anywhere in real space without warning.
Perhaps being unable to seize completey is a bit much, but like I said, it's just an idea and in need of fine tuning. Just as they're always the attackers, I think something along those lines would be suitable.
And on dropping Piratical Raiders; it is nearly impossible for Dark Eldar to be defensive. They can't hold real-space objectives in the same manner as other armies/races. This, I must admit, gets under my skin. People don't know the DE fluff, and GW is largely to blame (although Google does exist. Find the Torturer's Tale. Probably the best DE fluffpiece otu there, and one of GW's finest in general).
Every second that DE are in real space, their soul is being sucked out by Slaanesh. This is why we raid, pillage, and torture. This is why we live in the webway, and don't have planets and cities.
As the only other peeps to have access to the Webway are the Eldar (who's knowledge is far more limited anyway), good luck launching a crusade against the DE - in short, yes, it pretty much is impossible to truly attack/hunt them.
The simple fact is that, yes, only the DE Raiding parties have a place in this universe, because a DE city/planet in real space could not exist.
And you say I don't understand my army, but it seems that you are misinterpreting what slave taking does (or how it is done). The rule is based off of the normal sweeping advance rules. We get no extra roll, no bonus, no benefit. It's a simple matter of if a unit *is* swept, they become slaves. Models that are already casualties after you fall back can likewise become slaves. We're not killing anything that's not already dead.
I would, however, like more gear that is based off of slave taking, such as the Animus. Wargear that is cheap for its ability but requires casualties/slaves to activate/provide bonuses would be fluffy and fitting, as well as encouraging a true-to-nature style of play.
AT
As to the idea that their souls get eaten while they're in real space, I didn't know that piece of their story. That's GW's style, though. Fluff slowly changes, or things just don't get recirculated - especially with an army they seem not to care about. I'll be honest, I think that this needs to be changed for the betterment of the game in general, though. Other armies have had their fluff changed as the game evolved. The truth is that as nice as it is to think that they could survive in the webway, they would run out of resources. Just the logistics of replacing their Talos, Raiders and guns means that raiding alone isn't going to be enough. Assuming they have the forges and factories to build the things they need, raiding for materials won't provide enough materials to offset the losses. They would NEED to take and hold mines, just to exist. Maybe they get slaves to operate the mines, and maybe they get more reliable slaves to run the mines, but they would still need to swing in and *defend* the damn thing when the Imperium decided it was really theirs. Or maybe they have access to unlimited resources in the webway as well? If that's the case they're sounding less and less interesting, and less and less an actual part of the universe to me. My largest idea for the DE is that they need to be integrated more. They're far too separated. Even the other race that has a lot of mystery and come out of nowhere fluff to it, the Necrons, are tied to the rest of the universe. Any world might be a tomb world further down. That leads to interesting stories that can be created. The DE lead to DE players pretty much saying "Neener neener! You can't catch me.". Which is fine for an army's style on the battlefield, but no good for larger stories that some people want to create with the game.
You're right about me misunderstanding the Slave Taking rule. The last time I read it, which must have been some time ago, I think I missed the "enemy casualty" and read it as just "enemy". I'll admit that I was being a little over zealous and reacting to your "I am the one who can save us!" attitude. I for one, would be more than happy for them to have the rule as I miss-read it, though. You take slaves from the casualties and sweeping advances, but if they get away you might kill a few more. I just never really questioned my reading because it seemed like a nice, fair power and seemed in line with the style of the army. I now agree that they need a mechanical boost, at least.
I do like some of your ideas, but I still think that if the army is to survive a re-release it needs to be brought into the universe more. It needs to be more accessible, both from a universal fluff perspective, and a direct confrontation perspective. They feel too shallow as it is right now, and lets be honest, the fluff in the codex is the only thing that really matters to a lot of players. The novels are extra fluff that helps fill it out the backgrounds but they can be inconsistent, most people will never read them, and there's so many of them that most people who do read them might not read the same ones. They need to be a society that participates in the war, not just the raiding parties. Why can't the DE have some form of protective spirit stones? Why don't they have some form of Gellar field? Why do their souls get eaten so readily and they have no warp protection? Everybody else who has that level of interaction with the Warp has protection from it in some form. They're fluff only half makes sense. Like everything else in the 40K universe, but with more hand waving than usual, it seems.
I think we all agree that the Dark Eldar need to be updated. I really, honestly, do not think they need a patch to their codex. They need an overhaul to be profitable to GW, and to be more interesting. If they're not interesting or profitable to GW, then they might just go the way of the Squats just by sheer atrophy. They need more models, newer rules and more interesting background that meshes with the game in general.
Fluff is what will make or break the Dark Eldar in the new edition. As it stands, they are extremely bland. What are they? Chaos Eldar. Slaaneshi Eldar, even. They're space sadists. That's it. What they need is a more compelling story behind them, not the magazine-thin scraps of fluff they have in the current book. Moreover, they need a way to be slotted into the 40K universe that makes them unique, because currently they overlap heavily with other factions, especially the aforementioned Chaos. They take prisoners, sure, that's neat, but it's not enough to build an entire race off of.
They also need a better reason to be getting involved in battles, in my opinion. All of the other factions have ways they could be both "attacking" and "defending" something, and ways they might have various types of objectives (like Tyranids needing to capture a particular genetic sample rather than just eating everything, or orks protecting "me new waaagh banner"), but DE are pretty much limited to just raiding and capturing dudes. They also suffer from the same problem as the Tau in that they're actually a tiny, tiny faction when you compare them to everyone else.
Overall I think that Dark Eldar could be an interesting faction if they were re-imagined somewhat and brought back into the game, but it would be a gamble on GW's part (as they already have several strikes against them) and require an entirely new range of models in addition to the update codex. Will it happen? Maybe, they haven't gotten binned like Squats were- yet. But it's an uphill fight, and they don't have the same support that the other super-old codices (DH, WH) have, nor the well-established roles in the fluff. Ultimately, it's not unlikely that they may see GW give up on them and return to being a footnote in main Eldar codex, which may be better or worse than the limbo they hang in currently, depending on how you look at it.
I'm actually quite excited to read a new DE codex as the background section could be very interesting and be a departure from GW old copy-&-paste attitude to fluff. The old DE codex doesn't actually contain the best fluff on DE - it ended up being scattered across 3-4 WD at the time (escpecially the story about a captured DE that died like a "Life Force" vampire!)
GW have given us a few hints on how they might go:
1) they worship Khaine (bit Dark Elves, but what the hey)
2) Commorragh isn't the only DE city (Shaadom is mentioned in planet strike)
dark eldar have no affiliation with khaine
They need to be something more than skinny angry guys/gals in spandex and blades. The whole idea that they exist soley to enjoy the pain of others, really isn't sustainable as a concept. Let's face it, even people get desensitized to violence if exposed to enough, yet these guys still get their jollies out of doing the same thing for millenia. It's just not a believeable enough concept.
I love the idea of them being fast raiders, I just think the idea has to be developed a lot more.
Cheers,
It's like Utilitarian philosophy, except totally inverted. Since pure Utilitarianism doesn't work (greatest pleasure), then anti-Utilitarianism won't work either (greatest pain) only because it simply damages the society too much.
I would make it so the DE can come out of anywhere and hit so hard that they can cripple armies in one turn. BUT, the trick is to make the DE still fragile enough to be easily killed, except for some key units (like Asdrubal).
I would eliminate the force org chart, as it really does not fit the DE at all. Have it so you can run all jetbikes, ravagers, whatever. The DE are a RAIDER force, not an army per ce.
The Dark Eldar desperately need more interesting Heavy Choices. I always thought it would be cool for the Dark Eldar to have some sort of "Battle Barge," sort of like a cool, floating Battlewagon (but bigger) Something that would have a lot of turret weapons, cost a lot of points, have some sort of shield, and/or be tough to kill (even giving it "structure points" for 40k). I.E. something that didn't die after the first Lascannon blast. It would be cool if the barge could be upgraded with "Prisoner cells," "hooks and chains," or other modular weapons, and/or sections. The rules could be written so that the Battle barge HAD to be purchased with a minimum of 20 men to prevent spamming.
I would also have a unit that could take over other vehicles (like in the old days of rogue trader/epic). OR some special character that could take over enemy vehicles.
Oh, and give the Dark Eldar some other cool weapons besides the Dark Lance/Disintergrator.
You know you just described a Baneblade, right?
--I would eliminate the force org chart, as it really does not fit the DE at all. Have it so you can run all jetbikes, ravagers, whatever. The DE are a RAIDER force, not an army per ce.--
Many of the newer codecies have special characters and builds on IC's which allow for shifts in the FOC.
Grimnar turning wolf guard into a troop choice, A space marine captain on a bike allowing bike squads of 5 or more to be taken as troops. Ork warbosses allowing a Nob unit to be taken as a troop etc.etc.
Making numerous such options available to DE players would be an excellent way to allow for quite a few builds while promoting an Archon on down theme and feel to different DE armies (plus having the DE units you like to play in 5th as troops would allow for more of them and make them scoring).
On a separate note a 2+ inv. save on an IC with low toughness isn't that outlandish. I wouldn't want to start seeing them pop up as an option for every race but 2+ inv isn't as good as 3+ inv with a re-roll (fail 1/6 vs 1/9) which both eldrad (using fortune) and fateweaver (who also has eternal warrior to boot) have out of much new codecies.
Maybe the new codex will have special rules regarding this, or maybe just update the unit rules to fit this dilemma. Scourges have that same problem, I love the unit itself, but deep striking a high cost unit with low armour and toughness is a death wish. I agree having 2 heavy and 2 special weapon options per unit is too powerful, that I can see getting changed, but I like the idea of making all dark eldar weapons assault, much like orks. That way your units can continue to move forward aggresively in true pirate fashion.
I would love to see Grotesques re-done as they are nearly useless at this point, mandrakes are another great unit that could be tweaked, though they don't need much change really.
Hellions need to be changed too, I've never liked them.
One last thing I think would be kinda cool is having a "summon" like ability like chaos or daemons of chaos without needing the use of the webway portal. Perhaps a squad of whyches could summon a unit of warp beasts into the fray if the unit consists of a beastmaster?
Thoughts comments?
This could be a really nice addition to the codex, and it would help mitigate the warp beast's fragility.
Having them summoned in makes much more sense to me.
atm the best DE builds are lascanon spam (sorry yours are called dark lances :P) for 2 piece a 100points with 10 wounds and bs4. I never udnerstood what the footslogging warriors were meant to represent within their fluff. grunts who were too poor to buy a barge? silly...
what I'd do:
remove normal warriors.
redesign barges the following:
they are very cheap (~20 points) without any weapons.
they can buy a weapon to reach their current price tag (dark lance and shadow field is quite potent as a ranged support but sucks as a pure transort because of the costs).
they have a special rule which says that they do not count for any type of scoring (do not grant killpoints, nor can without a unit inside contest objectives).
there could be an euqipment to remove that rule (~15 points). maybe trophy racks which mean the barge is more impportant to the archon because it carries some special victims head.
add new equipment: shield projectors (becomes 12/12/10 and only counts as open topped if hit into rear) and dispersion field (4+ cover if shot from farther than 12" - before nightfield modifier - and 3+ if also moved at flat out). together with the nightfield you could turn the barge in a resilent troop carrier. maybe link it to the above equipment (get scoring/KP for free if upgraded for defense).
with this changes you could have anything from an allmost free trowaway transport which doesnt bite you in KP missions up to a gunship allmost rivaling serpents and valkyries. the part of not beeing able to contest with a 20 point barge is important so you cannot spam it without retribution. if you want to be able to contest I think an unarmed barge is as powerfull as a rhino therefore it should cost the same. you are more fragile but can collect cover more easily and are more maneuvrable.
bring all the neat units into line with 5th. with most of them (mandraks, grotesquen, helions,...) it would only be a question of price to make them viable.
equip harpies with power armor and give them assoult weapons. also introduce an anti-personal weapon that is not two stormbolters glued together. otherwise maybe give the glorified stormbolter poison(2+) could also make it viable (each hit means an allmost automatical wound on meq meaning it would be better than the heavy bolter with its 4 shots s4). increase unit size to 10 and each has to use on of the assoult weapons (like longfangs). if priced right they will be a viable heavy support choice (think: 10 dark lance blasters or however the 18" lance is called at around 250-300points).
either make a beautifull (doomwheel) modell or kill the talos. and give it sane rules (to me this seams like a piece of greenstuff with thousands of special rules sticking out... tail shots, armor penetration, skimmer-infantry...wtf?!?).
keep combat drugs because they are what makes them fun but make the roll on the effect of the drugs on the start of each turn to represent the instable nature of this technology. maybe make the HQs roll instead of choose as well (so you can say each turn how many drugs he takes, roll that many dice and see which ones you rolled. doubles or tripples act like normal). maybe even infantry can be allowed to roll multiple drugs (d3+1 casualties on a double, compelte unit on a tripple).
redesign hagashin. they are nice but their current strenght lies in mechanics that are annoying (in a bad way and finally this game is about both haveing fun) for the oponent. I'd say give them WS4 and 5+ invul in cc which can be boosted by buying hagashin weapons to WS6 and 3+(basically this rule allows you to either deploy fresh warriors or veterans with all the tricks). remove their other abilities such as negating double cc weapons and halfing WS. also allow them to either take poison (3+) or power weapons for an adequate pricetag.
additionally the "fear" mechanics should be inbuilt in the army but not too strong (so you are both balanced against fearless as well as non fearless armies). I'm sorry but I have no idea how to do this feat :(
Ruleswise, they need a little bit here and there, Mandrakes works amazingly with their deployment now as a paranoia unit you can't really predict where will show up, they just need to be able to get some upgrades, not a WWP of course.
Splinter rifles could do with either a shorter range but assault value or at least counting as an additional handweapon on it's own.
Shredders are overpriced, but it would be nice if they were converted to a template weapon and not blast.
Plasmagrenades all over! As an assault orientated army they need something to deal with cover.
Cheaper haywire grenades, at least for units, 4 point pr. model is way to expensive.
Hellions needs "stable weapon platform" or "relentless," just something so they can both shoot and assault.
Warpbeasts also needs something, probably rending, could also be able to both deepstrike and assault, like Vanguards.
Talos needs an overhaul on the way it attacks, the ranged weapon is actually pretty nasty for 5th since it's both attack and wound allocation in one go. But it's melee attacks are hopeless against vehicles, as a monstrous creature it doesn't need + a lot for it's penetration roll >.<
Scourges, decent if not a bit overpriced, their saving grace is definetly the ability to always deepstrike.
I'd make them look much more "Hellraiser": everyone bald, pale, and in black leather/rubber skintight armour designed to make it look like they've been skinned alive.
No nudity - that just looks immature and like a 13 year old posing as an adult. Everything about the Dark Eldar whould be creepy. I remember the concept sketch for the female Cenobite from Hellraiser had a Victorian-style bustle without any fabric; it was just the metal cage, and inside it was her dead foetus. That's how Dark Eldar should be visually. Not the Green Goblin, or some Fantasy Dark Elf in space. They should hit the "uncanny valley" reflex, and hit it hard.
I would prefer the raider and bounty hunter style as mentioned above. Such as in Star Wars Episode 6. Jabba the Hut's barque would be awesome, with lots of weapon options. For the background they would not need one city or one planet, therefore they are a mixed bunch of exile Eldar.
The actual DE models are mediocre, besides GW's paint scheme is just boring. All the models look like they escaped from Marvel comics, maybe a Sandman or Arkham Asylum comic style would be appropriate.
I know they have haemonculus, but where are the warlocks and seers? There must be some kind of psykers.
A form of dark avatar (with fist blades or a double handed glaive)
Another vote for plastic talos, ravager, incubus and wyches
Ability to summon daemonettes and compatibility between the plastic wyches and daemonettes
shiny book would be nice, but what they want is some love. (or hate??) to get that rolling. Look at dark elves and take that into the 41st millenium....
Oh and a reaperjetbike and sidecar... I want a heavy one tucked off to the bottom left much like the forgeworld flyer, but tighter. Imagine that the person that designed the Kawasaki Ninja was on bad acid and razorblades.
Summon daemonettes?!? You do realise that the DE fear & loath Slaanesh just as much as much as the craftworld eldar?
They wouldn't have an avatar as they dont have a piece of keala mensha khaine.
The reason DE steal souls is not to give them to Slannesh but the opposite. Slannesh steals their souls slowly over time so they steal other's to replenish whats lost of their own. They still very much hate Slannesh.
I think they could use a few more such as a Dark reaper analogue and warp spider equivalent. But I don't just want Dark versions of the eldar kind, I want them to have their own schtick.
Nearly everything in the DE codex falls into one of two categories: Horribly overpowered, or completely useless. 100 point HQ with a flamer that auto wounds, D6 AP. Helions. Things like this need to be brought to a closer balance to each other and the rest of the 5th ed armies. A new model range and some shiny new toys may convince new players that DE are a good army to start.
Models that don't look horrible.
I don't think the codex needs to be revamped in all honesty but I enjoy playing them the way they are. I of course would love a new codex if one was made but I'm not holding my breath.
Seriously, the models need help fast.
- You know how SW have Bjorn? What if Dark Eldarcould take awargear piece or special assassin character with a marked character/unit? Getting an extra VP if they are killed our "captured" but losing a VP if they don't.
- maybe a few more armour vehicles. I would love to see the forgeworld model (raven I think) get a small plastic and rules.
I'm sure there is plenty more, I am just distracted ATM. As a DE player for 10 years I REALLY want to see something from GW. I'm tired of these teasers.
I actually was thinking of a psychic power for a hamonculus or archon that allows them to use their -1 leadership for each turn number, but in a radius, like 6" or 12"
Also maybe a rule that says if an archon takes a jetbike, reavers can be taken as troops, and rules like that for a few DE units
and maybe a character like sammael of the ravenwing that can replace a bike or something with a fast high armoured tank, like 14 or 13 armour front and sides, 10 back, and moves as a fast vehicle
Its a shame that Gary Morley's plastic warriors were just iffy resculpts of the Perrys' concept pieces, but he didn't have/make the same amount of time for them that Jez put into the 3rd ed Space Marines... If the core of the range had been stronger you would still see a lot of players using them today and they would probably have had a couple of new Codex releases inbetween because the entire range wouldn't have needed overhauling so badly - it has suffered from needing too many resources throwing at it to make it worthwhile, to the point that GW have had to make the decision to do it properly or ditch it altogether.
The concept of Dark Eldar was always far more than just "evil, aggressive Eldar", hopefully the new Codex will bring that into the public domain and give players as well as their opponents a lot more inspiration & love for them! :-D
Give it a double tap please. I've noticed a distinct, and extremely pleasant lack of bun fighting here. The vast majority of peeps seem to get along extraordinarily well considering this is a forum on the internet. I think it's a pleasure to contribute on this site.
I hope Rich B is correct about the backstory. Forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but do The Dark Eldar have a purpose, an end-game they want to achieve? It'd give them some depth.
And I agree with Nurgle about the aesthetic. They look a bit too much like the other classic spikey-boyz; Chaos. I'd like to see them more functional, with a more pragmatic design. They're sadists, yes, but they operate as pirates and raiders when they're encountered by other races.
In terms of fluff and design, I'd like the concept of them being a complete dichotomy; focused, professional and efficient when they're 'on the job' (Raiding and pillaging), and then absurdly decadent, cruel, hedonistic and masochistic during down-time. Or, alternatively, you could have a society which is spilt down the middle, those two states represented by two sections that function in their 'society': Those who live for the hunt and the kill, and those that indulge in pleasure and perversity. Both, however, will take to the battlefield, and in the game, the former have certain solid functuanality that creates dependable but unspectacular units, the later have a wealth of bizarre special rules that provide warriors generally unsuited to battle, but that provide all kinds of battlefield bonuses and abilities.
Ok, it'd a bit 'Khorn and Slaanesh', but it's something I'd contribute to a brainstorm at least...
The army should stay elite fast and fragile. It doesn't need to be a horde army. I personal don't think the point costs need to drop to much.
The splinter rifle needs to become s4 assault 18 poison and count as two close combat weapons.
All close combat attacks that are not power or other special effects need to be poisoned as well.
Agonisers need to be poisoned power weapons.
Combat drugs need to stay however the rules need to be cleaned up.
Webway portals need to be dropped on the move.
Shadow fields should stay at one per army unless you carry a regular lord give her one and carry Asdrubael as he has one also
HQs
Lords: same
Retinue: same
special characters:
Drazhar: as an HQ he would allow incubi to be taken as elites
Urien: as an HQ he would allow groteques to be taken as troops
Lelith: as an HQ she would allow all wyches to be taken as troops
Asdrubael: as an HQ he would be able to be mounted on a ravenger or a barge, his shadow field would raise the av value to 14 and grant cover to the vehicle. In addition to this any enemy units that come in contact with Asdrubael's vehicle would immediately suffer d6+2 I6 power weapon attacks from his personal guard of incubi. His intimidation is such that all DE units become stubborn.
Elites
Grotesques: give them the usr feel no pain, make them WS2 BS- S4 T6 W2 I1 A1 L5 Sv-. They need to stay stupid and terrifying. Also I think they should cause a ST4 poison wound immediately to any unit for each casualty to them in HTH.
Mandrakes: 1-3. Shadow skinned needs to change to shadow cloak and make it the same as the pathfinder cloak the eldar have. The deployment is awesome just because it has a psy factor to it and should stay. They should be more of a lone figure and as such be deployed as individuals and can never join another unit however as soon as they cause a casualty they should also be removed from play as they carry the body off. They should not count as kill points unless killed. WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W1 I6 A3 L9 Sv5
Hamonculus: same but as elite
Wyches: same
Warp beast pack: remove 0-1 limit and can never hold objectives. Can attack the turn they enter play. Rending.
Troops
Warrior squad: Simplify these down to one entry and get them inline with the current trend of unit descriptions - these guys are fixed with the weapon changes mentioned above. as such i think they would be fine and wouldn't require any point adjustments.
Transport
Raider: i think these are good the way they are - they might need a point more armor for the current cost or adjust the cost down. Personally id say leave them alone add some equipment to them as standard.
Fast
Jetbike: let them use the standard drug chart - the sucubus must take whatever the squad has and role a d6 for each additional drug effect plus a d6 for the initial effect to see if it wounds. ie 1 extra effect takes 2 d6, 2 extra effects take 3 d6 ect.
Hellions: remove the 0-1. sky board equals jump pack. hellglaive equals splinter rifle. all hellions are armed with grenade launchers and can fire a variety of grenades up to 12 inches away during the shooting phase. terrorfex, plasma, and haywire grenades may all be used in this manner as well as a stun grenade that lowers the enemies Initiative value by 1.
Assault Scourges: same as heavy but with blasters and shredders.
Heavy
Scourges: same
Ravenger: tank. either make it closed top or raise the armor by one
Talos: sting - d6 shots at nearest enemy. claws - d6+1 attacks. flying monstrous creature
Barge: tank. open topped armor 12. carries up to 20 troops. up to 5 guns
My group came up with a "Sail Barge" ala Jabba the hut for an Apoc scale unit.
My suggestions:
Drazhar should make incubi squads scoring, that would be cool.
Scourges need a price reduction.
Hellions should be fleet, deepstrike, and multiple weapon options.
An option for a closed top Ravager.
And in all honesty, a points INcrease for the Dark Lance because, come on, does anyone not think these things are way to cheap right now.
I was working under the assumption that there would be no decrease in points cost over all. There troops should be few and elite according to the fluff. That doesn't mean that there stats should be over powering. By changing the way the standard weapon works and adding poison to all non-special attacks many units become fixed. They are not really going for kills as much as incapacitation and poison fixes that. BTW I am taking 4+ poison not the hamonculi 2+ poison weapon. For that matter it could be a 5+ poison. It just fixes allot in game terms and in fluff implementation. I would actually have to play test and math-hammer it to be sure the exact number to use.
I am also working under the assumption that the armory would go away thus reducing the characters effectiveness over all as it did with other armies. With weaker characters (all tho DE should still have some of the best characters around) the troops need a buff to the point they are more then a delivery system for the unit champion.
The grotesques as troops and hamonculi as elite I really didn't get into or express very well. I see them as more of a combo really. to be troops they would need a hamonculi attached and have the special character. I really wasn't very detailed in this post. To do it you would really have to want to put some resources into it. If you noticed the grotesques have there WS W I and A values all reduced. They don't die easy but cant really don't do much else at all, and if they do die they poison/blowup ect. ala DiobloII style just for the hamonculi to make more out of you and your buddies.
I personally don't think incubi should be scoring as they really have better things to be doing/killing. I.E. anything the other troops cant poison and drag home they get to deal with.
Scourges would be effected by the rifle change and poison upgrade and should then be priced about right.
Dark eldar are fleet of foot. Skyboards are just jump packs so they should be fleet in this rule set. They can already deep strike and they would also be effected by the rifle change and poison upgrade. I really didn't know what to do with these guys but the temptation to to give a nod to the green goblin fans was to great. As they are they would act as a very fast but fragile support unit that could fill multiple roles. The haywire grenade is a bit powerful on them it might need only be shot once, or maybe all the grenades be shot only once each. Shrugs.
As I said with the Ravenger: tank. either make it closed top or raise the armor by one.
I actually think the dark lances are fine where they are. In 5th they don't do near as well as they did in 4th or 3rd. I think the key would be limiting how many are in the army and the current 5th ed rule set does a good job at that. The warrior squad might need to be limited to one dark lance with ten or more models in the unit. I haven't heard of to many people bring them in troop units in 5th anyway. If you have more then one dark lance on a vehicle and it moves they then only one gets to fire anyway. I think its balanced as is.
The game can be fun and fair!
GW can learn customer and product support!
Our votes do count!
The south will rise again!
The hamonculi have modified the procedure where by the soul is captured within soul stones to actually split it in two. This leaves the soul extremely weak and barely over half can survive the procedure let alone the process of feeding off the souls of the less deserving races to regain there full strength.
All effort is being made to perfect the understanding of possession to implant the soul into a mass of eldar flesh within one of these lesser races. Early efforts show no contamination from the host to the fledgling eldar within there wombs. No rebirths have been made as of yet however it comes closer with each experiment.
Soon the lessor races will regain there rightful place under the whim of the eldar as they were meant. All that is waited for is the return of the raiders, the same that will flow eldar flesh to all worlds once again.
1. Splinter rifles should be assault. It makes no sense that one of the armies in 40k that should be least likely to stand and shoot has to do so. I think making it poisonous and an extra cc would definitely overdo it, but I could see doing one or the other (assuming the poison was 4+ or 5+). As a DE player, 18Assault would be great, but at the current point cost I don't see that happening, I'd rather have 12Assault at the current cost than 18" at a higher one.
2. Bring things in line with the current rules. This is a no brainer, and should cover usrs like giving poison and rending when they are due, fnp for grotequess, etc.
3. Fix the useless units. Another no-brainer. Hellions, Scourges, and Mandrakes should take priority.
4. Give us something new and cool. I'd love to see some sort of sniper unit (maybe somehow more mobile than other snipers but also more expensive).
5. The Dark Eldar are a fairly competitive army already so we'll have to give something up since the above is almost certainly a net gain. I think cutting down on dark lances wouldn't be a bad move, esp in troop choices. Fixing splinter rifles and adding a close combat element to warriors would already help a bit with the dark lance issue, if the majority of the unit is most effective while moving/assaulting it makes standing around to shoot a dark lance a much more difficult choice. On top of that, I'd suggest upping the points cost for warriors by 5 pts and/or limiting them to 1 per 10 warrriors. This could be part of the fix to scourges, as they'd be much more viable if you couldn't spam cheap lances on warriors, esp if they could move and fire them. Keep plenty of lances on ravagers and maybe sprinkle some anti-armor elsewhere in the codex to keep the list competivie in the current vehicle heavy game.
I will go point for point.
1. I kind of put all my thought possibilities out there as options with out the intent of all of them being implemented. To me rules should reflect fluff and a flavor of play. 12" assault is defiantly more fair if it was assault 2 and if they are poisoned as I think fluff wise they should be and it would make them unique from every other army out there. If its assault one 12" well they can already do that as is. The 18" I proposed was for assault 1. Two close combat attacks really was a draw from the existing rule of the kroot rifle and the fact they have so many spikes and knives ect. it seems appropriate. The close combat attacks really should be determined again by the level of the poison attack. There is a huge difference between 5+ and 4+ in 5th ed having to do with re-rolls determined by the toughness of the victim. If poison 4+ was the rule of the day then close combat attacks and number of shooting attacks need to be lessened as there potential effectiveness rises. This has to do with math-hammer side of it and as I said I haven't crunched all the number to determine the perfect balance. In general however the more dice you throw the more reliable of an outcome you have as well as the higher chance of getting that outside the center result. It sounds complicated but its not.
2. All agreement here. I volunteer to do FAQs to keep stuff current. I bet there are a lot of people that would. It is very poor business to continue to push a product that is broken when fixes are so simple and inexpensive to do. The whole codex system is broken and outdated... but that's another topic that deserves its own place in the forum to discus.
3. See my second point.
4. Again I agree however to be more fluff focused I went with the scourges with assault weapons and the barge, especially the barge with the advancement in molding they have had in the years since the first DE release. Mine are not the only valid ideas however and Id like to see something as well.
5. When the new codex is released we will be giving up huge amounts of war gear and character effectiveness if the current codex trend continues. That being said I just don't know if the point cost of dark lances matters in the squads at all. If they got dark lances for free Id rather pay the point cost for the splinter cannon anyway. After playing 5th ed with the DE a lot the volume of armor out there now and the increased survivability of all closed top armor has actually made me wish I had a more effective way of dealing with armor. That is one way I have started to lean towards talos as they are MCs and thus get 2d6 penetration. Yes lances make land raiders expensive rhinos but rhinos with cover in volume are a pain. This thought process also was partially behind the assault scourges and the hellions with wrist grenade launchers.
Don't take me as overly instant as to my thoughts. I just like for it to be known they are well reasoned and the direction behind them.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
All in all though, bottom line..I have my Wolves.
They're already amazing, and, more than many races, their playstyle reflects their flavor. Although, since they ARE Eldar, it's kind of odd that they've got NO psykers.
If it weren't for the fact that I love Orks so much, DE would have been my first army. As it is, if I ever pick up a 2nd army, it'll be DE.
when Gav wrote their souls are unprotected from slaanesh he didnt mean that their souls were ALREADY in the warp...you still have to die for slaanesh to eat your soul. they should be just as psychic as eldar, in a very different way though, and they would be more afraid of perils
Pretty sure he did, as that's the practically the definition of a 'soul' in 40k - a living creature's emotional/mental presence in the warp. What Slaanesh needs is for that soul to be free floating rather than anchored to a physical body to be able to eat it.
Sorry, wrong. Quoted directly from the fluff - "They found to their horror that Slaanesh had not yet finished with the Eldar – S/he was slowly draining their souls while they still lived."
Dark Eldar drink souls to stave off this leeching - perhaps by sating the thirst of Slaanesh, or perhaps by replenishing the essence of their own souls with that of the consumed one.
The DE concept is very cool. The imagery, the background, the way the way that they play reflects this imagery and background... They rock.
NO. >_>
I will probably move Hellions and Wyches to Troops slots.
Mandrakes that infiltrate like SW scouts
Trade Scourges' jump packs for Jet packs
Add at least one new Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support option.
New sculpts for almost everything :P
Edit:
Although that battle barge idea sounds pretty cool.
Edit:
Now that I think about it, DE need 1 (or more) models with PRESENCE. Something to inspire awe and fear in opponents (whatever the rules may be).
How about "soul" abilities, like in DoW? - Each unit they wipe out adds a point to a counter, then you can spend the points to do stuff - kinda like the WH Faith system, exept you start with 0 points in it, and it gets added to with KPs.
Also, take the DE in the direction that eldar would go if they weren't constrained by their paths. Allow mix and match decent wargear so that you can have squads with power weapons and wings. Also, give them a slightly altered avatar, to indicate that the sacrifice wasn't as willing, as well as harlequins. According to the fluff they ought to have both of these at their disposal. If they're not going to be given psykers despite being a heavily psychic race there should at least be an explanation as to why they're absent.
There are already a few units that are ok and pretty usefull in the actual codex.
What could be usefull would be a rewriting of the rules of following units:
Haemonculus: This is no real alterntative to the Lords. He needs a more special taste. For example unlocking several units like Grotesques or Talos. A list of abilities would be nice: Aura of fear (-2 Moral to all enemy units in 18 ")
Harbinger of pain (every enemy modelin 24" get a s 4 ap- hit
Soulcloak: (all friendly units in 18 " count as beeing in nightfight. etc
Mandraks: exchange theri camo-rule with: Infiltration, scout. Give them a option for a troopcharakter. lower price
Grotesques: feel no pain
Hagashin are adequate in my opinion
more specialrules for warriors: scout 4 ex.
so far 4 now
What they really need is new models
A character with an army-rule making my cult playable w/o skimmers.
Jetbikes with "Scouts"-USR or "Move through cover"-USR.
That´s all, need nothin´more.
-miniatures(OMG those warriors).
-rules; Nowadays, the army could be very competitive, but I think that the army rules should be more agressive, with an armoury similar to the ork one (dominated by assault and short-ranged weaponery) to show their raiders character. On the other hand, there some units that needs a deep review or just disappear (grotesques, scourges, mandrakes, hellions), because of it useless.
-the backstory should change a bit, making a clearly difference between eldar pirates (a disorganiced band that have an local influence) and dark eldar (a organiced race with galactic influence). I think that the backstory problem with the first codex was that they didn´t have a clearly objective as a race; the humans have the imperium, eldars survive, chaos destroy, nids consume, ork fight... so giving them a "racial" objective, like recover the ancient eldar empire or surviving to the chaos influence, will make them more atractive a better defined than just saying they act like pirates.
the eldar, as we are CONstantly reminded, are almost extinct, with only 7ish major craftwords out there...how do you see Deldar, with an even smaller emerging population (i read it was like 10% of the surviving 1% of the former eldar empire?), as needing any more motivation than being the smallest faction of an almost extinct race? dont see them as empire builders at all
The biggest thing about dark eldar as mentioned in the article, is that they were a niche army. They are even more fragile than most eldar units, their skimmers are not unlike ork trukks when they take any mid-powered fire, and for an army with soo much access to pinning and Ld for most models now so high it is redundant. I guess you then could complain that it is an assualt army but the basic unit doesn't get +1atk for pistol+cc wep.
Streamlined here is what gw will probably do:
Take away/modify the few dark eldar rules by replacing or exchanging them for USRs
Some sort of boost to the skimmers.... and if the valk for ig is a hint this army could quickly become a nightmare (i'm thinking something like an all skimmer drop pod assualt rule or scouts USR)
Lastly i think someone is going to look at the splinter rifle and either leave it the way it is, make it assault with shorter range or decide to give them a Splinter pistol (chaos and spacewolves style)
They should be venomous assault eldar on dope, without psionics, traveling fastest possible on open skimmers to rip yor skin away..
and that's scary.. °__°
Crunch-wise, DE need to accentuate speed and power, for they are certainly fragile enough already.
1. A reason to not take raider squads over warrior squads such as access to new weapons or limit heavy weapons to only foot squads.
2. S5/T3: hit fast, hit hard, if you don't wipe them out, you're screwed kind of all or nothing h2h mentality
3. better use of combat drugs: would like to see specific applications to the whole unit, be it squad upgrade characters or attacheable haemonculi. When using the ability, test on squads T and if fail, lose a guy from overdose.
4. Some kind of way to double run?
5. love the jump pack to jet-pack idea
6. access to harlequin but no spam
Add another voice to that. I'd like them to play up the concept that Harlequins are as strange and inexplicable to other Eldar as Eldar are to the imperium.
Come on GW, get those dark space elves out dammit.
- Scourges need either A.) Assault weapons or B.) Jet Packs. I lend to towards the later, giving them great maneuverability and Relentless
- Wych Cult units should be able to pack at least 1 power weapon/ somewhere off the Sybarite like so many assault armies today.
- Assault weapons! Everything the eldar use is assault practically (either naturally, or on grav platform, etc). If Dark Eldar are supposed to be so maneuverable, with a desire to jump on your face and rip it off, Warriors and Hellions and such should be using Assault weaponry (or Hellions could have Relentless like Scourges)
- Mandrakes need something to make them more dangerous than a flailing wet noodle in hand to hand, and of course a redo for their rules. Probably Scout/Infiltrate with maybe a special rule on infiltrate distance/board edge (like Wolf Scouts)
- Grotesques will probably get changed greatly, with a standard Feel no Pain and such. They need something to prop them up in hand to hand after that. I feel they should be T4+ (like they appear to be in Dark Heresy), and maybe have an option similar to tyranid "biomorphs" to represent the Haemonculi's mad experiments on them.
- Incubi are pretty good. To bring out the "fallen aspect" thing more, you might give their leader the equivalent of "Exarch" powers?
- On that topic, if we moved Wyches to Troops, we might work some other fallen aspect (a totally new one, vanished from Eldar culture, vs fallen scorpions) in to elite, maybe somewhere else. Just for flavor (see Bigred's post above)
- Haemonculi are decent, but could be made more interesting, especially on the Morale side of things, or squad-enhancement. Possibly even have 2 sets, Haemonculus Lord (HQ) and Haemonculus upgrade char (Think IG regular commisars) for some units. Right now this set would be limited to warriors/grots though probably, and that's no fun.
I feel this would at least definitely get them off on the right foot to being what they were meant to be. I also really liked them having unique abilities in Soulstorm, but I feel like a Witch Hunters "special ability point" system might drag down their codex, especially if they did add more flavor/tactics with the above. I'd actually like some feedback on the above if anyone would like to comment.
I would love to see progressive bumps in power as they kill more enemies (and eat their souls of course), in the form of +1S,T,I,Ld, and invulnerable save, or even a 1-Ld to opponents on top of this. It would open up the possibility of new fallen Eldar to make them more of a galactic threat. Those Rangers are looking jelously at those uber-buffed warrirors... >:)
The whole torture thing should be expanded upon in the form of more negative Ld modifiers. Space Marines should be wetting themselves and fleeing.
Same goes for Haemonculuses and Grotesques. I agree with your ideas.
The whole army should be a first turn assault and break them with OTT Ld modifiers, but if they fail to pwn their opponents by Turn 3, they betray their masters (only occasionally, but have it become more and more likely to betray as others do) and get blown to bits.
Incubi with Fleet, 'Exarch Powers' to make the Master worth buying, and a Dark Avatar (Special Character, their is only 1 per craftworld, so 1 for DE total).
Hellions, Reavers, and Mandrakes should all see a CC buff. Perhaps +1 A or rerolling failed to would due to all of the spikes? I actually like the current models (well, some of them, not to many).
Also, given the prevalence of Fearless/abilities to pass Ld checks with other armies, whatever crowd-control abilities they'll end up with should bypass these rules and work on native Ld (and change to fluff so instead of just causing extreme fear, perhaps they cause distracting illusions as well).
Fluff: The foundation is there but it needs to be greaty expanded. Maybe get back to the roots of the idea, and have the Dark Eldar Codex cover pleasure-cult survivors, crone-world eldar and Rogue Trader style eldar pirates. We also need to see signs of their society and culture being more complex, a'la Craftworld Eldar. There's a lot that could be done to twist the 'avaricious dying ancients' theme in a darker direction.
Models: Change them ALL
Will mnost definitely be getting a DE army as soon as they're rereleased :)
New unit: Tortured Psyker. runs like the wraithlord and wraithguard units. They could have a slave collar that hurts them if they even think of doing something the DE don't like. Not enough to wound them, just make them immobile and do nothing on a beginning turn roll of a 1 on a d6.
Hell make an entire unit of them led by an overseer, like the psyker choir in IG. could make things interesting.
New Unit: Arha, fallen striking scorpion phoenix lord. kit him out much like a normal pheonix lord, but with darker abilities and eternal warrior USR.
revamp the models, and change some point values around. and maybe even some of the units in the FOC...and we could have something to fear.
A good looking set of miniatures is going to be a good start to the new army.
Then it would need to be a better selection of transports and support. We all expect something heavier in armies, and I could see some sort of heavy assault or heavy armor being a big help.
Rules wise, I found the DE fairly good. But this was for third, and we aren't seeing them on the same level as more recent editions of codex armies.
Hell, if the miniatures are as good as the eldar, (thanks to JG) we might see people buying them to use as eldar models if the rules stink.
What about Reaver Jet Bikes? They used to have the only "turbo boost", will they introduce something new that plays on this idea of their previous rule?
Feel no Pain for Grotesques maybe, as grotesques definitely need to be re-worked.
I still feel Dark Eldar are VERY competitive with their current codex, but something new would definitely be awesome. Newer models are an absolute must at the very least.
What about new units. Anybody have any ideas of new units they may add?
points costs need massive revision, as do weapon options, as do wargear options.
they should keep all the aspects of the army that set it apart from other races: maneuverability, high initiative, causing leadership penalties, junk for armor, diabolically evil characters, and torturous experiments gone wrong.
not to mention that they need a whole lot more fluff to back up a codex rewrite, otherwise a new book will tank faster than the old one did.
Cool new models and lots of options.
Cleavage.
:)
Also, I think rubbish/no armour, but every model being able to scout/infiltrate and/or deepstrike would add to their fast and suprising mode of attack. this would also help distinguish them from other armies.
Also, I think rubbish/no armour, but every model being able to scout/infiltrate and/or deepstrike would add to their fast and suprising mode of attack. this would also help distinguish them from other armies.
Fandex: Dark Eldar – v4
(Still a WIP)
The Dark Eldar won't/can't be dropped as a 40k race. They've even been mentioned in new Space Wolves fluff. We will see them sometime soon; perahps along with their sensible cousins too.
I think that there'll be a massive re-design overhaul on their background as well as their miniatures range.
I can also smell plastic Wraithguard. Perhaps we might see an "Eldar undivided" release sometime in the future...
As far as what I'd like to see changed for the Dark Eldar, I enjoy my Dark Eldar army alot, and have quite a deal of success with it, the one thing I'd like to see them turn into is more of a terror/morale army. Get some more -Ld gear/abilites, give even fearless units the chance to be pinned on a LD 11 that can then be modified.
Beyond that, they need to keep with the raider theme. Give Warriors pistol/CCW option, Hellions need an assault type weapon, maybe an extra attack, add a weapon that will slow units(I think bolas when I think slavers), Make Grots the normal FNP with a T (3)6, add in a Fast Attack, basically make it a Vyper type vehicle with super Slave Snares, limited range weapon, maybe a Splinter Cannon, but it can tank shock and does D6 Str 5 wounds to the unit it's tank shocks.
I could really do an entire codex mock up, but this isn't the space. I think they should go back and use the old Roman Gladiator/slaving backgrounds as some ideas. When I think Dark Eldar, I think slaving and gladiators, and I think of the old movies they did like Ben Hur.
Grotesques as Troops in some instances, whether if led by Haemonculus (like Wraithguard) or if Uriel is an HQ choice.
Hellions as Troops (and improved overall), if led by a Skyboard Lord.
Warrior Squads viable outside of DL sniper squads... probably by making Warriors cost 6 points base, limiting to 1 DL a squad at +15 but allowing 2 Splinter Cannons, we could have them viable as advancing foot Troops while also (properly) weakening their fire support capabilities.
Currently weak units should be buffed so they're viable. This includes Talos (mostly allowing it to get 1 roll per hit vs vehicles), Scourges (allow them to shoot on the move and move-shoot-move like Tau Suits), Grots, Mandrakes, Hellions, and Bikes. Mandrakes should change to double-Stealth and Scout USRs, and either get 2 attacks base or allow them to get special weapons so they're not just a unit of 1 attack S3 T3 models that sneak into Space Marine dorm rooms so they can get raped in CC.
Strong units should not be buffed together with the others, we don't need to buff everything as DE is a solid codex already if you don't mind cookie cutter lists. Raiders are already strong, as are Wyches, sniper Troop squads, Incubi, and Haemonculi.
Literally, the only units that I feared were his Archon, Retinue of Incubii, mounted in a raider, and his Talos.
Those were the only units that could sway the battle if they hit my lines.
I think that the new DE will need more combat muscle, nastier heavy weapons, plus more sneaky and fear-inducing units to fit the theme.
Plus, a range of miniatures that actually entice people to collect them in the first place might help...
Hi. We're dark eldar. We like being evil and killing things. Why? Because we're evil. We're so evil we're the evilest things ever. Why? Because we're evil and we like being evil.
Yes, but WHY? What do you actually want? Why do you do what you do?
To emphasize their raider nature, they probably should have some sort of rule along those lines. Maybe they all bugger out and leave when they take too many casualties.
Plus, since they have access to the webway, they should have a vehicle with a portal in it, that they can walk out of. Maybe some wargear for their HQ to teleport around with too.
Also since they're so nasty, their look should involve a lot of skulls.
From the old codex, I loved their initiative, weapon skill, and speed (which is SO much more important in the new edition). I want to see that expanded upon but with the ability to play a game that depends on even more finesse. A new Dark Eldar codex would be the perfect opportunity to allow for dynamics such as pinning, fear, outnumbering, range modifiers (as with vehicles), and overall controlling the movement of opponents rather that shoot/assault/bluff.
A new codex for an old and unique army like the DE could represent a positive shift in 40k gameplay.
The best-looking models are the ones most in need of help. Help them out and the entire army will benefit.
MANDRAKES: I love the idea of mandrakes and their deployment rules are the coolest in the game. They're also borderline unplayable because they have no hitting power. Mind games don't help because the threat isn't credible.
Recommendations: give them poison blades (or some other optional weapon upgrades) and a leader upgrade, or make them cheaper so I can hit my enemy with a bunch of them. Or how about this? MAKE THEM TROOPS. A big use of them in 3rd was claiming objectives; give us this ability back, please.
GROTESQUES: what a confusing unit. They're resistant to small arms fire, but most of the time you'd put them in a raider to keep up with the rest of the army. They cause an auto-break if they win close combat, but good luck winning in close combat!
Recommendations: I don't know what to do with them, frankly. They are neat looking models, though. If you make them tough in close combat, too, they could be a decent tie-up unit-- something that doesn't exist in the rest of the codex.
Warp beasts: plasma grenades. Please.
Hellions: ugh. It's obvious that the whole "rapid-fire-close-combat-weapon" is a terrible idea. What's not obvious is that Hellions were terrible in 3rd edition, too. It's fine for their signature to be the hellblade; nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is that they fulfill the same basic role as wyches in a raider, but do it worse. "Hit and Run" sounds like a Dark Eldar rule, but it's not; Dark Eldar is more like "hit, kill, move on". If the combat lasts more than a round, you're probably losing. If the idea is that hellions swoop in and out of combat, firing and then charging each time, they probably need to be tougher. If you make 'em tougher, though, they start to be more like jetbikes...
Recommendations: at least give them a new weapon-- maybe something in the assault-18" range. Making them tougher is an option, too.
Scourges: Scourges are another victim of design confusion. Give 'em Dark Lances and they're basically warriors, except you get four times as many warriors for the same number of lances and points. Give 'em Splinter Cannons and they're a decent mobile fire-support unit that gets obliterated by return fire. Either way, not a great choice.
Recommendations: give them a unique weapon. Right now, they can't do anything warrior/raider squads can't do as well. In fact, give them a *dual mode* weapon that encourages movement when required. How does this sound?
R: 36", heavy 2, STR 6 AP4, OR R: 12", heavy 1, STR5 AP5 blast
So you can stay back and hammer light vehicles, creatures, and heavy infantry, or you can shred someone who tries to jump you. You can even use their Deep Strike option, drop close, and drop four blast templates on some poor guy.
And I am doing rather well I just Started and have first place and 8th in large tournys an mates De got 3rd in the tourny I got 8th and I noticed a few more players poping up.
So while I agree very much we need a new dex this one is not spent yet and its catching on.