Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Raam — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:42:04 -0000

Night Fighting - give them a rule that makes night fighting more of their game, I.E They always have night fighting for (D6) rounds at the start of the game. All DE units have Acute Senses.

Mandrakes - Two weapons, Rending, re-roll to wound, Callidus placement for the unit (no markers), Cover save improved by +2 (5+ in the open), 3-10 per squad, 0-1 Elites choice.

Wych Queen (or equivalent) Raiders become Elites, Wyches become Troops.

Remove the option of Warriors. They're all Raiders, with transports and smaller squad size. Remove any Heavy weapons from the squad, give them shorter range assault weapons. Splinter Rifle, maybe 18in S3 AP5 Assault 2, gives bonus attack for 2 ccw in melee. Upgrade for 1-2 18in Assault darklance equivalents, upgrade for 1-2 18in S3 AP- Assault 2 Blast guns.

Scourges - I kinda-sorta-maybe like their style. Jump pack, assault Darklances or assault Shrieker Cannons from Harly Death Jester, 4+ armor.

Hellions - these guys are just weird. Let's see how we can fix them. 5+ armor. 4+ invulnerable? S3 T3 A2... Assault weapon of some sort, maybe lower AP then standard rifle, maybe rending in cc. Basically these guys need to be turned into the answer to low AP weapons that would blow Jetbikes away.

Jetbikes - Jetbikes and Hellions really need to be built together to complement each other, otherwise one will turn out better playwise and the other will be left by the roadside. Hellions would get a low number of attacks, both shooting and melee, with lower AP on shooting and rending (with a possible upgrade to PW) in melee. Jetbikes on the other hand would be High number of shots, high AP, high number of attacks in melee, 3+ armor save. Maybe give both Hellions and Jetbikes Skilled Rider. I like the combat drugs - but simplified. Maybe 1; +1 I. 2-5; +1 WS +1 I. 6; +1 WS +1 I +1 A. These drugs across the board for Wyches and Jetbikes, both with a base WS of 5 and a base I of 5-6.

I don't know enough on the rest of the codex to comment - some say they're weak, I've seen them played often enough strong, and I'm either out of ideas for the unit or don't know the unit enough to comment any further. But basically the idea for the army would be this: night fighting, short range, assault weapons everywhere, high WS, high I, Fleet. Not melee per se, but extremely close range skirmishers. Sorta like the Space Wolves of the Eldar - not melee, but gets in close. Basic Raider should be better in assault then, say, a Storm Guardian, even with a Warlock, but worse then, say, a Blood Angel Jump pack marine. So ye won't be voluntarily charging many orks, but if you get charged, you'll bloody them a bit.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Gigantorjosh — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:28:17 -0000

well the way I am making my stand is playing they at as many tournys as I can.
And I am doing rather well I just Started and have first place and 8th in large tournys an mates De got 3rd in the tourny I got 8th and I noticed a few more players poping up.

So while I agree very much we need a new dex this one is not spent yet and its catching on.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

IG Dogface — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:44:38 -0000

The Dark Eldar have one problem: unit variety. Fully half the units in the codex are terribly underpowered; the remaining half is terrific, but that leads to a lot of very similar (and similar-looking) armies. Plus, your troops choices are "warriors" or "warriors in a raider"-- not a lot of variety. Scourges are "warriors with wings"; Ravagers are "Raiders with more guns". You know you're in trouble when Necrons have a wider model range than you.

The best-looking models are the ones most in need of help. Help them out and the entire army will benefit.

MANDRAKES: I love the idea of mandrakes and their deployment rules are the coolest in the game. They're also borderline unplayable because they have no hitting power. Mind games don't help because the threat isn't credible.
Recommendations: give them poison blades (or some other optional weapon upgrades) and a leader upgrade, or make them cheaper so I can hit my enemy with a bunch of them. Or how about this? MAKE THEM TROOPS. A big use of them in 3rd was claiming objectives; give us this ability back, please.

GROTESQUES: what a confusing unit. They're resistant to small arms fire, but most of the time you'd put them in a raider to keep up with the rest of the army. They cause an auto-break if they win close combat, but good luck winning in close combat!
Recommendations: I don't know what to do with them, frankly. They are neat looking models, though. If you make them tough in close combat, too, they could be a decent tie-up unit-- something that doesn't exist in the rest of the codex.

Warp beasts: plasma grenades. Please.

Hellions: ugh. It's obvious that the whole "rapid-fire-close-combat-weapon" is a terrible idea. What's not obvious is that Hellions were terrible in 3rd edition, too. It's fine for their signature to be the hellblade; nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is that they fulfill the same basic role as wyches in a raider, but do it worse. "Hit and Run" sounds like a Dark Eldar rule, but it's not; Dark Eldar is more like "hit, kill, move on". If the combat lasts more than a round, you're probably losing. If the idea is that hellions swoop in and out of combat, firing and then charging each time, they probably need to be tougher. If you make 'em tougher, though, they start to be more like jetbikes...
Recommendations: at least give them a new weapon-- maybe something in the assault-18" range. Making them tougher is an option, too.

Scourges: Scourges are another victim of design confusion. Give 'em Dark Lances and they're basically warriors, except you get four times as many warriors for the same number of lances and points. Give 'em Splinter Cannons and they're a decent mobile fire-support unit that gets obliterated by return fire. Either way, not a great choice.
Recommendations: give them a unique weapon. Right now, they can't do anything warrior/raider squads can't do as well. In fact, give them a *dual mode* weapon that encourages movement when required. How does this sound?
R: 36", heavy 2, STR 6 AP4, OR R: 12", heavy 1, STR5 AP5 blast
So you can stay back and hammer light vehicles, creatures, and heavy infantry, or you can shred someone who tries to jump you. You can even use their Deep Strike option, drop close, and drop four blast templates on some poor guy.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

shadowstriker5 — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:08:41 -0000

no offence, but you clearly don't get DE. they specifically want to be different, namely scarier, more intimidating looking, and more over all aggressive them their more merciful counterparts.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

OXRS — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 12:25:32 -0000

Well, as for them launching surprise attacks from anywhere, yes, I won't dispute that idea. The idea I will dispute is that it's only a benefit to them. A lot of people could easily bait a trap that the DE might not be aware of until they're in the middle of it. Being able to be exactly where you want in an instant isn't all that great for you if that is where your enemy wants you to be.

As to the idea that their souls get eaten while they're in real space, I didn't know that piece of their story. That's GW's style, though. Fluff slowly changes, or things just don't get recirculated - especially with an army they seem not to care about. I'll be honest, I think that this needs to be changed for the betterment of the game in general, though. Other armies have had their fluff changed as the game evolved. The truth is that as nice as it is to think that they could survive in the webway, they would run out of resources. Just the logistics of replacing their Talos, Raiders and guns means that raiding alone isn't going to be enough. Assuming they have the forges and factories to build the things they need, raiding for materials won't provide enough materials to offset the losses. They would NEED to take and hold mines, just to exist. Maybe they get slaves to operate the mines, and maybe they get more reliable slaves to run the mines, but they would still need to swing in and *defend* the damn thing when the Imperium decided it was really theirs. Or maybe they have access to unlimited resources in the webway as well? If that's the case they're sounding less and less interesting, and less and less an actual part of the universe to me. My largest idea for the DE is that they need to be integrated more. They're far too separated. Even the other race that has a lot of mystery and come out of nowhere fluff to it, the Necrons, are tied to the rest of the universe. Any world might be a tomb world further down. That leads to interesting stories that can be created. The DE lead to DE players pretty much saying "Neener neener! You can't catch me.". Which is fine for an army's style on the battlefield, but no good for larger stories that some people want to create with the game.

You're right about me misunderstanding the Slave Taking rule. The last time I read it, which must have been some time ago, I think I missed the "enemy casualty" and read it as just "enemy". I'll admit that I was being a little over zealous and reacting to your "I am the one who can save us!" attitude. I for one, would be more than happy for them to have the rule as I miss-read it, though. You take slaves from the casualties and sweeping advances, but if they get away you might kill a few more. I just never really questioned my reading because it seemed like a nice, fair power and seemed in line with the style of the army. I now agree that they need a mechanical boost, at least.

I do like some of your ideas, but I still think that if the army is to survive a re-release it needs to be brought into the universe more. It needs to be more accessible, both from a universal fluff perspective, and a direct confrontation perspective. They feel too shallow as it is right now, and lets be honest, the fluff in the codex is the only thing that really matters to a lot of players. The novels are extra fluff that helps fill it out the backgrounds but they can be inconsistent, most people will never read them, and there's so many of them that most people who do read them might not read the same ones. They need to be a society that participates in the war, not just the raiding parties. Why can't the DE have some form of protective spirit stones? Why don't they have some form of Gellar field? Why do their souls get eaten so readily and they have no warp protection? Everybody else who has that level of interaction with the Warp has protection from it in some form. They're fluff only half makes sense. Like everything else in the 40K universe, but with more hand waving than usual, it seems.

I think we all agree that the Dark Eldar need to be updated. I really, honestly, do not think they need a patch to their codex. They need an overhaul to be profitable to GW, and to be more interesting. If they're not interesting or profitable to GW, then they might just go the way of the Squats just by sheer atrophy. They need more models, newer rules and more interesting background that meshes with the game in general.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Anonymous Toad — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:01:30 -0000

Again, likely no one will read this, but I have to throw a thing or two out there...

Why I would put forth the idea of not seizing vs DE is their style of fighting. Largely indisputed Webway mastery allows them to pop up nearly anywhere in real space without warning.
Perhaps being unable to seize completey is a bit much, but like I said, it's just an idea and in need of fine tuning. Just as they're always the attackers, I think something along those lines would be suitable.

And on dropping Piratical Raiders; it is nearly impossible for Dark Eldar to be defensive. They can't hold real-space objectives in the same manner as other armies/races. This, I must admit, gets under my skin. People don't know the DE fluff, and GW is largely to blame (although Google does exist. Find the Torturer's Tale. Probably the best DE fluffpiece otu there, and one of GW's finest in general).
Every second that DE are in real space, their soul is being sucked out by Slaanesh. This is why we raid, pillage, and torture. This is why we live in the webway, and don't have planets and cities.
As the only other peeps to have access to the Webway are the Eldar (who's knowledge is far more limited anyway), good luck launching a crusade against the DE - in short, yes, it pretty much is impossible to truly attack/hunt them.
The simple fact is that, yes, only the DE Raiding parties have a place in this universe, because a DE city/planet in real space could not exist.

And you say I don't understand my army, but it seems that you are misinterpreting what slave taking does (or how it is done). The rule is based off of the normal sweeping advance rules. We get no extra roll, no bonus, no benefit. It's a simple matter of if a unit *is* swept, they become slaves. Models that are already casualties after you fall back can likewise become slaves. We're not killing anything that's not already dead.
I would, however, like more gear that is based off of slave taking, such as the Animus. Wargear that is cheap for its ability but requires casualties/slaves to activate/provide bonuses would be fluffy and fitting, as well as encouraging a true-to-nature style of play.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Anonymous Toad — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:51:24 -0000

So I know I'm digging up an old thread that probably won't be read, but I'll reply anyway, because I think you have some valid points; I definitely don't want to be someone who just says "I want this and this and this" for my army. I do think that everything I put forth can be implemented, adn have done some minor playtesting, but a few things would also need to be brought in line.

Warrior squads, I don't think should lose the amount of weapons, but should be restricted in teh same manner as other units (no more 10-man sniper squads - maybe one heavy and special for the first 10, 5 more gives you one more, full squad the 4th). Same idea with Raider squads. I hate min-maxing, and run 10-man raider squads and 15-man foot squads anyway.

Why do I say drop the cost on Raiders? Because every equivalent transport has gone down, pretty much - look at what Rhino's and Ork Trukks cost. Yes, I fly, and yes, I'm faster, and I should (and am happy to) pay for these, but at this point I am paying more comparatively because of the new general points level. Transports are cheaper/better in new codexes; marines are toting grenades for free, orks and guardsmen are cheaper. Is it so hard to think that Wyches could be equipped with Grenades? They are elites, afterall, and I don't think that this would put them way over the head of everything else.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

VonKoeder — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:39:31 -0000

Thanks for the input. Its nice to know people actually read my stuff.

I will go point for point.

1. I kind of put all my thought possibilities out there as options with out the intent of all of them being implemented. To me rules should reflect fluff and a flavor of play. 12" assault is defiantly more fair if it was assault 2 and if they are poisoned as I think fluff wise they should be and it would make them unique from every other army out there. If its assault one 12" well they can already do that as is. The 18" I proposed was for assault 1. Two close combat attacks really was a draw from the existing rule of the kroot rifle and the fact they have so many spikes and knives ect. it seems appropriate. The close combat attacks really should be determined again by the level of the poison attack. There is a huge difference between 5+ and 4+ in 5th ed having to do with re-rolls determined by the toughness of the victim. If poison 4+ was the rule of the day then close combat attacks and number of shooting attacks need to be lessened as there potential effectiveness rises. This has to do with math-hammer side of it and as I said I haven't crunched all the number to determine the perfect balance. In general however the more dice you throw the more reliable of an outcome you have as well as the higher chance of getting that outside the center result. It sounds complicated but its not.

2. All agreement here. I volunteer to do FAQs to keep stuff current. I bet there are a lot of people that would. It is very poor business to continue to push a product that is broken when fixes are so simple and inexpensive to do. The whole codex system is broken and outdated... but that's another topic that deserves its own place in the forum to discus.

3. See my second point.

4. Again I agree however to be more fluff focused I went with the scourges with assault weapons and the barge, especially the barge with the advancement in molding they have had in the years since the first DE release. Mine are not the only valid ideas however and Id like to see something as well.

5. When the new codex is released we will be giving up huge amounts of war gear and character effectiveness if the current codex trend continues. That being said I just don't know if the point cost of dark lances matters in the squads at all. If they got dark lances for free Id rather pay the point cost for the splinter cannon anyway. After playing 5th ed with the DE a lot the volume of armor out there now and the increased survivability of all closed top armor has actually made me wish I had a more effective way of dealing with armor. That is one way I have started to lean towards talos as they are MCs and thus get 2d6 penetration. Yes lances make land raiders expensive rhinos but rhinos with cover in volume are a pain. This thought process also was partially behind the assault scourges and the hellions with wrist grenade launchers.

Don't take me as overly instant as to my thoughts. I just like for it to be known they are well reasoned and the direction behind them.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Ryan — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:39:49 -0000

I like quite a bit of this, although the sum total would probably be overpowered. A couple of key points:
1. Splinter rifles should be assault. It makes no sense that one of the armies in 40k that should be least likely to stand and shoot has to do so. I think making it poisonous and an extra cc would definitely overdo it, but I could see doing one or the other (assuming the poison was 4+ or 5+). As a DE player, 18Assault would be great, but at the current point cost I don't see that happening, I'd rather have 12Assault at the current cost than 18" at a higher one.

2. Bring things in line with the current rules. This is a no brainer, and should cover usrs like giving poison and rending when they are due, fnp for grotequess, etc.

3. Fix the useless units. Another no-brainer. Hellions, Scourges, and Mandrakes should take priority.

4. Give us something new and cool. I'd love to see some sort of sniper unit (maybe somehow more mobile than other snipers but also more expensive).

5. The Dark Eldar are a fairly competitive army already so we'll have to give something up since the above is almost certainly a net gain. I think cutting down on dark lances wouldn't be a bad move, esp in troop choices. Fixing splinter rifles and adding a close combat element to warriors would already help a bit with the dark lance issue, if the majority of the unit is most effective while moving/assaulting it makes standing around to shoot a dark lance a much more difficult choice. On top of that, I'd suggest upping the points cost for warriors by 5 pts and/or limiting them to 1 per 10 warrriors. This could be part of the fix to scourges, as they'd be much more viable if you couldn't spam cheap lances on warriors, esp if they could move and fire them. Keep plenty of lances on ravagers and maybe sprinkle some anti-armor elsewhere in the codex to keep the list competivie in the current vehicle heavy game.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

spiffx — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:35:58 -0000

Dark Eldar since the beginning have hinted at having an amazing niche in two areas...speed and non-lethal attacks (at least not directly). They were the army I had hoped would bridge the gap between Warmachine gameplay and 40k gameplay, if that makes any sense.

From the old codex, I loved their initiative, weapon skill, and speed (which is SO much more important in the new edition). I want to see that expanded upon but with the ability to play a game that depends on even more finesse. A new Dark Eldar codex would be the perfect opportunity to allow for dynamics such as pinning, fear, outnumbering, range modifiers (as with vehicles), and overall controlling the movement of opponents rather that shoot/assault/bluff.

A new codex for an old and unique army like the DE could represent a positive shift in 40k gameplay.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Undivided Guy — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:43:04 -0000

Well the best Idea i've heard for the revamp of the DE is that they should be able to ignore leadership powers like fearless and stubborn as the fluff describes them as the scariest guys in the entire universe short of a full on daemonic invasion. If they can ignore special leadership abilities then their powers that can lower leadership can really be powerful.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

VonKoeder — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:27:20 -0000

BAH!!!

The game can be fun and fair!

GW can learn customer and product support!

Our votes do count!

The south will rise again!

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

VonKoeder — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:20:43 -0000

As for fluff.....

The hamonculi have modified the procedure where by the soul is captured within soul stones to actually split it in two. This leaves the soul extremely weak and barely over half can survive the procedure let alone the process of feeding off the souls of the less deserving races to regain there full strength.

All effort is being made to perfect the understanding of possession to implant the soul into a mass of eldar flesh within one of these lesser races. Early efforts show no contamination from the host to the fledgling eldar within there wombs. No rebirths have been made as of yet however it comes closer with each experiment.

Soon the lessor races will regain there rightful place under the whim of the eldar as they were meant. All that is waited for is the return of the raiders, the same that will flow eldar flesh to all worlds once again.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

No_Gaming_In_Mississippi — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:06:05 -0000

Still looks like wish-hammer to me.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

LordSandwich — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:47:54 -0000

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about unreleased models.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

zerosd — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:44:33 -0000

'Not get eaten by Slaanesh' plays a large role. Like Craftworld, they're all about survival, but survival through hedonism.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

zerosd — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:40:23 -0000

Hm... well, they're high-tech right? So they should have good gear. Good guns, maybe a 3+ save.

To emphasize their raider nature, they probably should have some sort of rule along those lines. Maybe they all bugger out and leave when they take too many casualties.

Plus, since they have access to the webway, they should have a vehicle with a portal in it, that they can walk out of. Maybe some wargear for their HQ to teleport around with too.

Also since they're so nasty, their look should involve a lot of skulls.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

VonKoeder — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:21:10 -0000

I don't want to sound like a fan-boy or trying to wish-hammer. I try not to. I was however not clear enough I think as to how I invision the army.

I was working under the assumption that there would be no decrease in points cost over all. There troops should be few and elite according to the fluff. That doesn't mean that there stats should be over powering. By changing the way the standard weapon works and adding poison to all non-special attacks many units become fixed. They are not really going for kills as much as incapacitation and poison fixes that. BTW I am taking 4+ poison not the hamonculi 2+ poison weapon. For that matter it could be a 5+ poison. It just fixes allot in game terms and in fluff implementation. I would actually have to play test and math-hammer it to be sure the exact number to use.

I am also working under the assumption that the armory would go away thus reducing the characters effectiveness over all as it did with other armies. With weaker characters (all tho DE should still have some of the best characters around) the troops need a buff to the point they are more then a delivery system for the unit champion.

The grotesques as troops and hamonculi as elite I really didn't get into or express very well. I see them as more of a combo really. to be troops they would need a hamonculi attached and have the special character. I really wasn't very detailed in this post. To do it you would really have to want to put some resources into it. If you noticed the grotesques have there WS W I and A values all reduced. They don't die easy but cant really don't do much else at all, and if they do die they poison/blowup ect. ala DiobloII style just for the hamonculi to make more out of you and your buddies.

I personally don't think incubi should be scoring as they really have better things to be doing/killing. I.E. anything the other troops cant poison and drag home they get to deal with.

Scourges would be effected by the rifle change and poison upgrade and should then be priced about right.

Dark eldar are fleet of foot. Skyboards are just jump packs so they should be fleet in this rule set. They can already deep strike and they would also be effected by the rifle change and poison upgrade. I really didn't know what to do with these guys but the temptation to to give a nod to the green goblin fans was to great. As they are they would act as a very fast but fragile support unit that could fill multiple roles. The haywire grenade is a bit powerful on them it might need only be shot once, or maybe all the grenades be shot only once each. Shrugs.

As I said with the Ravenger: tank. either make it closed top or raise the armor by one.

I actually think the dark lances are fine where they are. In 5th they don't do near as well as they did in 4th or 3rd. I think the key would be limiting how many are in the army and the current 5th ed rule set does a good job at that. The warrior squad might need to be limited to one dark lance with ten or more models in the unit. I haven't heard of to many people bring them in troop units in 5th anyway. If you have more then one dark lance on a vehicle and it moves they then only one gets to fire anyway. I think its balanced as is.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

sstrobie — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:20:06 -0000

now don't kill me here but I would love to see Harlequins in the new dark elder codex but not the ones in eldar codex maybe the SOLITAIRE or venom with Harlequin jet bikes kinda like the raven wing attack squadron where you have bikes and upgrade with a venom. Now the only reason why I say this is because these two units could fit in with the Dark eldar well one the Solitaire is kind scary and dark, and the venom and bikes would play well with the fast attack type of the DE. The reason why I would love to see them in DE codex thou is the fluff of the Harlequins states that they preform for all eldar and get there troops from all eldar as well.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

zerosd — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:35:53 -0000

All Eldar have more psykic ability, but not all develop it into out-and-out powers, and the more one does so, the tastier their soul becomes.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

Angelic Despot — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:22:47 -0000

What I would most like is some background, history and character. Apart from the awful models, their background is just so boring.

Hi. We're dark eldar. We like being evil and killing things. Why? Because we're evil. We're so evil we're the evilest things ever. Why? Because we're evil and we like being evil.

Yes, but WHY? What do you actually want? Why do you do what you do?

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

andrew — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:43:17 -0000

I always thought that there were many more dark eldar than eldar. I thought that the majority decided to stay with only a few fleeing in the craftworlds. Which is true?

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

vindur — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:20:41 -0000

They all have psychic potential, theres a difference

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

dutchvigilante — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:51:42 -0000

Its not only the ghosthelm that protects them, its years and years of walking a path that is extremly hazardous and requires immense self-control and stability. Dark eldar are not known for either.

Re: 40K : Dreaming of Commorragh

LEGION3000 — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:33:27 -0000

I think he means Hellraiser ie. Pinhead and the cenobytes. Yeah that would be totally sick.