I usually can play fairly fast, and still manage to make sure I tell my opponent everything I'm rolling. It takes like, a second to say something like "Yep, Reserve roll for {unit}"? As long as you tell me what you're doing, I don't care what you do, or how you do it.
It is annoying when you get players who have to check every chart, but I can give the newer kids a bit of slack there, or if I'm teaching people.
The most annoying is when you get people who say they "know their codex". No, you don't, you lying SoB, I've read it and you're wrong! :P I love shutting those guys down ^_^
Myu
· 4 months ago
Fair enough. The only codex I'm close to memorizing is the Necron one (I sometimes forget the costs of the Lord's upgrades). But even though I feel confident with it, I bring my codex just in case. You never know when you'll make a simple mistake because you're tired or too caught up in the game.
Thatguy
· 4 months ago
What my friends and I do is we make our army list on excel, then write down all the stats, special rules, and wargear of each choice. then we dont have to check the codex, we can look at our army list which saves lots of time. through this we memorized almost every ranged weapon and unit stats
Xelloss
· 4 months ago
The point is to play fast but not to rush. You have to quicken your though process, not completly remove it. In go games they speak about "making your eye" : with experience you just see if a move is correct or not... This isn't magic, it's because you do battles and battles. Playing less than 1000pts to do more games a day his also a good way.
Psychopomp
· 4 months ago
I agree with this absolutely. Through quick play without rushing, I've honed my tactical abilities to the degree that my friends regard me as a very good Eldar player.
Another important thing to do to keep you from rushing is to call out every roll, like, "Rolling to hit, I need 4+." That keeps a good game flow.
You want to train yourself to think quickly (rather than just acting quickly) so that you can access the battleflow at a glance, instinctively come up with a plan, execute it, judge the level of success or failure of the execution, the repeat the whole process. All without having to stand there, hemming and hawing, while trying to figure out what's going on.
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
I like to fluster my hyper opponents by playing slow. It throws them off their game.
jwolf_bols
· 4 months ago
You don't play slow, you stop rolling and tell a story about some crazy thing. And speaking as one of your hyper opponents, the stories are generally entertaining, so I don't get flustered, I get amused.
Dictator93
· 4 months ago
sounds like fun to me
4thCompanyCommanderCorvus
· 4 months ago
yehh wish people did that with me :)
CarbonBased
· 4 months ago
This is why I play. Win/lose/draw is not as important as having a good time and socializing. Which is important, since I draw/lose/win in about that order. :)
idene
· 2 months ago
i haven't played against anyone besides my best friend, and brother in law, and that's pretty much what we do. pop open a couple sodas, talk, stories, etc, and my order is lose/draw... huh, i don't think i ever won a game. :\
but yeah, we don't play tournaments, and it's more for having fun and staying up until 1 am doing a four hour game or so. :3
Bijyu
· 4 months ago
There is such a thing as playing too fast. I played a game a little while ago where every single time I rolled the dice I had my opponent question me. He was playing mind boggling slow and he would ask me to slow down constantly while rolling dice and moving things around because he wanted to make sure I was moving/counting properly the entire time. I am just glad I stomped him after getting the feeling he took me for an idiot.
But my point was that you should move at a pace that both players are comfortable with. If you try to fluster your opponent because you want to move quick he can get "too" flustered and start asking for rerolls and remeasures.
anonymous
· 4 months ago
#1: I noticed that on many tournaments the gamepoints were decreased (about -200), because many hordes players couldn't finish their games in a approbiate time. Or the referees started giving minuspoints for overtime games. So when a player starts delaying games (maybe they losing or don't want to give over the turn to win by game break) both players are punished (miserable for both). I think it is very important for gamers to learn fast playing (especially hordes player). This is more important in competive tournaments. In a normal game with a friend, i dont care. #2: I don't think fast playing hones abilities, but people should think about how to accellerate their game. Friend of me started with putting his guards with magnets on plates (similar to LotR unit bases). 1x 10men unit = 2x 4-5men bases and 1x heavy weapon base. Sure sometimes this is hard to use, but it works mostly. I think other hords like nids and Orks can do the same (use your imagination). My 2-cent.
Maine
· 4 months ago
I have a technique for moving horde armies like Tyranids and Orks - if you have a large group of them, only move the back 6" worth (assuming a 6" move), by moving them to the front. In the case of the Ork special weapons, I'd move them up separately.
Doesn't help with assault moves though.
Qasi
· 4 months ago
I generally hate playing against people who play fast. They tend to constantly roll dice without telling you what they are doing, and rarely double check things with the codex or rulebook. I prefer a slower pace where you can enjoy the narrative of the game, instead of just frantically rolling dice and removing models.
RealGenius
· 4 months ago
I hate dice rolling with no words. At least throw out "Rolling to hit" or something and I can figure out the rest.
Farsight
· 4 months ago
I was in a tournament once against a tyranid hoard. He didn't have a codex, wouldn't tell me what he was rolling for, and failed to tell me about the living ammunition rule. It was very frustrating to watch him roll his dice four times in a row then say "And now all of those guys are dead."
RealGenius
· 4 months ago
When that happens I just pick up and roll a few dice and say,
"Oh, look, they made their save."
SM
· 4 months ago
Eh, they were tournament players, of course they took advantage of you. At least you didn't have to face the Fabius Bile chaos spam.
zenjah
· 4 months ago
Playing fast doesn't have to mean "playing fast and loose with dice rolls."
I don't think the point of this thread is in any way to encourage people to rush through dice rolls.
It is the time people spend deciding what to do that can really prolong a game, and that is an area that can be improved without rolling dice frantically.
anonymous
· 4 months ago
I always say for what i throw the dice. Like: "Hit on 3+" (or mostly 4+). "Wound on 4+". Its like a mantra. In 99% of the games i'm right because i know the rules. I hate, when long time gamers every round check the stats and compare (I make exceptions for novice gamers). To know the rules of your troops and the troops of your opponent is basic for a good plan. The pros adept their overall strategy against the different races. That's why a goof mix of troops is more important than all (off topic).
Miggidy_Mack
· 4 months ago
So true. There is a guy who I hate playing because he acts like I'm rushing him when I call out "3+ to hit" when my GK's assault his marines. He pulls out the chart and double checks. Asking me EVERY TIME "What's your weapon skill?". He even does it in subsequent rounds of the same combat!
I'd think he was stalling, but these aren't tournament games, we are just playing around. During movement he moves every model exactly. I appreciate that he isn't cheating but really... first rank then back rank then the rest of the guys... that's close enough.
My turns take 10 minutes at most, his can take half an hour!
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I feel your pain!
I had a kid last week who wanted to roll seperately for each of his ten harlequins against my unit of five rangers! When i made him roll for his Troup master first, and it killed all five rangers with his power weapon, he still wanted to roll for the other nine halequins!
an mous
· 4 months ago
Yikes. That's just sad.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
I learned my lesson on this one. I don't play anyone who could be considered a 'kid' (it's more of an attitude thing than an actual age thing. Some 16 year olds are pretty smart, and will give you a hell of a game. Some, not so much), and definately not 'little kids'. Their armies are always a mess, they never have lists and generally have no idea how the rules work. Forget about tape measures and dice...... Then when they get it together enough to actually start the game you have to be patient and kind enough not to absolutely slaughter them because they have absolutely no clue as to what 'strategy' is. I just can't deal any more, so I quit gaming with them. I've really tried to be the nice guy who tutors them during their first few games, but I honestly don't want to waste what little time I spend at a gaming table giving training. To a kid. Too frustrating.
LEGION3000
· 4 months ago
Ugh I hate that. Its even worse when your opponent doesn't have his own quicksheet to look up and has to ask, What do my guys hit on? every time.
If I tell you one time, and you don't write it down, all your guys hit on 7s.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
I have one friend who checks measurements by just flashing out the ruler and putting it away, it barely registers that they've done it, then roll a boatload of dice without saying what they're for and then says "these guys die" and I'm just left there standing thinking "the hell just happened..?" And often, he doesn't even BRING his codex because he's memorized it, so he assumes we must have too, making even the slightest rules dispute a major hassle.
It gets a touch annoying after a while, especially when there are a few new players in our group, and I'm taking the time to roll slowly and explain each roll "my orks have strength 4 on the charge, your guardsmen have toughness 3, so the chart shows us we need a 3+ to wound you *rollrollroll*, These dice are the wounds, you have flak armour, so that's a 5+ armour save..."
And against the new players he just flies ahead leaving them in the dark as to whats even going on.
I love a slower game, where you can watch the action unfold in front of you, and you can build that narrative. Sure its not 'realistic' per say, wars dont happen at a leisurely pace with generals munchin pizza, but this isn't reality. Lets slow it down people, we're here to enjoy a nice, relaxing activity.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
Not bringing a codex for your army is wrong! I can be a bit of a git with people who don't bring a codex (and especially if they dont bring an army list for the game and just say 'thats 1500 points'). I start questioning everything they do and say. I usually have a keen eye for movement, and if its just 1/2 inch over the distance moved i dont care much. If its well over the distance they can move, I will usually get my tape measure out and give them some jip about how far they can move. If they fire weapons i will say 'show me the stats' if they don't have a codex. It may antaganise, but they should get the idea eventually and will start bringing army lists and codexes.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
I agree, and I'm often a stickler when he doesn't bring the codex as well, but as a group we usually just let it slide after a few jabs because we dont want to start antagonizing people in the group, especially with new players around.
The not bringing army lists is another thing I've seen a few times that really bothers me, I tend to be fairly detailed when I write mine, I write the entire statline and break down the war gear and the like so when people do question I have the information right on hand, as opposed to sitting on a shelf on the other side of town. I do it as a courtesy for other players, is it so bad to extend that courtesy back? Some people...
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I use Army builder and print out my list, as my writing is terrible. I tried using Excel/word but that was a chore!
I usually inform people what I have in the army that is different to the norm. Such as the Eldar psychics and Exarch powers. This is out of courtesy and I dont want to win a game just by them not knwoing what they are going up against! I would expect that in the 40K world that army commanders are informed of enemy new technologies and tactics!
Madjob
· 4 months ago
Not bringing your codex along is indeed criminal, not only because your opponent may need it, but because precise wording is difficult to keep a record of in your head and many game disputes rely on it.
I will admit to playing most of my games without a list on hand because I play a static list regardless of my opponent, and have checked it several times to make sure the points values are correct and committed it to memory - from one point of view I most certainly can understand why many would want to have an opponent's list there to look at, it could potentially seem like someone without one is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. On the other side of things, lists can be lost, if you run several armies at once, you've already got a large load to carry and the extra paper with all your lists printed out along with the errata printouts, etc. can get pretty hefty. They also foster some dependency - several players I know who do remember to bring their lists are constantly bringing them out and leafing through them whenever I have a brief question about a unit's wargear or profile. Because they haven't forced themselves to memorize what the model has or is capable of, they slow the game down. I certainly won't deny a request for me to write out my list if my opponent really wants one, as I said, I have it memorized and have no problem writing it out and even double checking the points once more for their benefit, but most of the time I've been given the benefit of the doubt, and my games run smoothly thanks to being able to recall all the information I need from my list or codex simply from memory.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
well.. I usually only bring the list I need for that army, and I type mine up and well, keep it to one page, nice and simple. Why bring a list for an army you're not bringing?
Dutch Vigilante
· 4 months ago
Not bringing an army list is equal to not bringing an army. Esspecially with upgrade heavy armies like Tau or 'Nids. No list = no play. Not bringing a Codex is more difficult. Against my normal opponents, sure, against new opponents ... nah.
Lerra
· 4 months ago
I guess my FLGS is weird. There is a store copy of each codex, so for casual games people often don't bring theirs from home. Also, I've never seen anyone have an army list. Most of the time, we show up, decide what point value we want to play with, and then create a list. I thought that was how everyone did casual games. It makes it much easier to adapt to your opponent (mostly toning things down for the newer player or those playing casual lists).
Sathos
· 4 months ago
Meh unless I am playing against my mates David (troop heavy nids/DE) or Angus (vehicle heavy squats/tricked out chaos) I tend to take an "all comers" fun list... ie: one thats a chuckle for both players and dependant on how I field it, as easy or tough for the opponent as I want it to be.
Funniest was against David's nids last week... I took an allcomer's list as he said he was trying something new but didnt tell me what...
My list had no vehicles (but a couple of walkers) and he turned up with a hybrid troop heavy/anti-vehicle list lol
A hard fought battle that he won well but was very close at the end. The same list however could be used to educate a newbie player as it used all 3 templates, scatter, various troops/hq and the walkers...the only thing it missed was vehicles.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
Our GW store has a copy of each codex, but these are usually being looked at by people looking to buy or demo's. I have set lists of 500, 1000, 1500, 1750, 2000, and 2500 pts. I only build generic lists, not lists based on what my opponent is fielding and their not cheese/beard based.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I play at the pace of the opponent. Usually this is a comfortable enough to get two games (1500 pts) in about 3-4 hours. Against newbies and people who have a new army you have to give them some slack. I have seen people try to play at tournie level with people who are not use to the speed. This does not help them improve their play or enjoy the game. I always tell the person what the dice i am throwing represent suchs as 'green dice hit on 3+, bone dice on 2+'. On dice throws, this leads to having more than one set of dice! Games go alot quicker when you can throw dice for a unit with mixed weapons in one go. I always bring at least three different sets of dice too a game. It also has a pychological effect against the opponent in my case when you throw 32 dice from a bladestorm of which 27 are green dice hitting on 3+, and 5 bone dice hitting on 2+ with re-rolls (due to guide) 8-).
Lerra
· 4 months ago
Slow players have to adapt for the tournament scene. I like to play a relaxing game and not feel like I'm over-caffeinated for 7 hours straight, so I bring an all-terminator deathwing list. Around 40 models at 2500 points (and half start off in reserve)! That way I can play the way that I want to, and my opponent doesn't get too annoyed because I like to breathe in between rolls.
My #1 pet peeve in tournaments is when there is a squad with 3-5 different weapons and the opponent picks up a bunch of different colored dice and starts rolling, expecting you to be able to follow. First of all, there is no universal standard that I'm aware of, where "red is melta" and "black is lascannon" or whatever. It makes it rather fishy when someone does all of their dice rolls in about 5 seconds with no explanation, almost like they are trying to hide something, and I hate to think that my opponent might be cheating.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I always explain what each dice colour represents before throwing the dice. If someone just threw a set of coloured dice and then told me what they were, i would make them re-roll!
phoenix01
· 4 months ago
I only play occasionally, as I am more into the building/painting part of the hobby, and I have yet to actually win a game against any opponent. I personally prefer a slower paced game when I do play, not because of unfamilarity with the rules (although that sometimes comes up), but because when I do play, I want to enjoy watching my Marines get wiped out by the other army. I mean if you are going to beat me, at least take your time to do so. I also learn more from the slower paced game, ever hoping for that draw or even a, dare I say it, win?
jwolf_bols
· 4 months ago
I'm all for a slower paced game with an opponent like yourself, phoenix01. A teaching game or a game with an occasional player is an ideal time to slow down and walk through the basic mechanics, which is also a beneficial practice.
Maybe I'll have to write a piece on why slow games are good practice, too. :)
annon
· 4 months ago
Just make sure your army looks cool! I have a hard time killing cool looking units. It will for sure slowt he pace of the game when your opponent admires your work, even if he is killing them. If I can tell I have the upper hand in a game against someone who is a good painter/modeler, I'll give gaming advice, if he asks, and I almost certainly never pass the chance to get some modeling advice. (Not as talented in this area.)
Taking a good looking model off the board is never as fun as taking off the killer unit that is made up of slightly broken, unpainted, proxied models.
Robey Jenkins
· 4 months ago
I'm right behind the idea of playing fast. Quite apart from the points Jwolf makes, speedy play can be more naturally exciting, as events occur in closer proximity, enhancing the sense of an unfolding drama.
But, as others have suggested, fast play requires certain agreed behaviours by players. For example, dice discipline needs to be enforced: unneeded dice must be removed from the table or rolling tray; failure dice must be removed carefully to allow an opponent to acknowledge "success" dice; and a clear decision on the outcomes of cocked and fallen dice must be agreed at the outset.
That said, beyond that, in friendly games, fast games can be a great way to learn your army and codex. Play through in gentlemanly fashion without referring to the rules or codex, approximating rules where you can't remember them. Then check back at the end. If necessary, concede a KP or objective for each memory slip or error, but in friendly games it should just be a useful mutual learning experience.
The next time you play, those rules you forgot will be better reinforced thanks to the mistakes you made last time.
Brent
· 4 months ago
I completely agree with your last point. Even in friendly games, I never request to back up a phase - if I've missed something, I've missed it; hopefully I won't when it counts.
Which is frustrating when Eldrad stands around cleaning his cuticles for a phase.
RealGenius
· 4 months ago
I agree; I never go back a phase-- it won't be a lesson if there's no sting! :)
I can't even count how many times I've forgotten a psychic power or unit in reserve by mistake.
However, I almost always let me opponents go back a phase, especially newer players.
Dutch Vigilante
· 4 months ago
If I see an opponent rushing to the shooting fase and forgetting to move, or rushing to assault, I normally ask them, "So we're now entering your shooting/assault fase?" Which makes them look at their army once more to see if they did everything they wanted. Letting someone move something in the shooting fase is more difficult, because then the bastard act of tactically removing models to avoid the assault is jinxed.
ctreleheb
· 4 months ago
I also like to ask about entering each phase. I dont expect my opponent to let me go back a phase and would prefer the same expectations in return. The thing i hate the most is a very indecisive player that starts on one side of the board moving units then getting finished looks back at how oops he blocked los with his own rhino and decides to move the unit back to its "original" location before moving it somewhere else. this type of play cost me a game this weekend when my opponent did this at least a dozen times in one game.
Dutch Vigilante
· 4 months ago
If that happens with a new player or a buddy in a casual setting, I'd say "Alright, but you're not really allowed to do that, so be mindful of it." If its a tourny or it happens frustatingly often, I throw the book at them, page 11, "You may not go back and change the move made by a previous unit"
an mous
· 4 months ago
Yep. If you're going to "test move" use a die to mark the new position, but leave the piece where it is until you are happy.
Of course, that slows the game down. Immensely.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I pretty much do the same with newbie player....'are you sure you want to go into the shooting phase?'. However, i only give that warning once (maybe twice for uber-newbies). After that they are fare game! Sometimes they need the pain to remember for next time. When it comes to rolling back a move, it really depends on what side of the bed i woke up on , even for newbies some time.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
I love speed playing. The faster the better. Sort of like Chess with a timer. Gives the game more drama due to the possible mistakes you can make.
Brent
· 4 months ago
Good post, but I think perhaps more needs be said re: tournament play.
What JWolf is really saying (and don't you hate that saying? like why make assumptions ass? so I apologize for my presumption) is learn to play well playing fast.
This is most useful in tournaments, where many armies play for the win in round 5 or 6. How many of us would have won a game had it gone one more turn?
By the same token, it's impolite to slow play, deliberate or not. A friendly request to speed up should be honored. One of the examples was the guy that checked his charts each round... now I'm a polite dude, but that does interfere with the flow of a game - not so important in friendly matches but more so at tournaments. What are we thinking is appropriate here?
Perhaps I can be accused of putting too much emphasis on tournament play, but it is a different deal. We can all of us put up with more if money, prizes, or ego isn't at stake.
Shavnir
· 4 months ago
I think the big thing on the charts is how, except for a few odd cases (I still don't know what S cannot wound what T but it hasn't come up in a game yet) the tables are all really really easy to memorize. You just have to think of them as an equation and not a set of predetermined numbers.
Shavnir
· 4 months ago
Ugh I meant this to reply to the head not this. Threaded comments :\
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
In tournament play if an opponent can't remember the Str/tng chart, then they shouldn't be in a tournament. This really is a fast play scenario, and people should know the stats of their armies back to front, and chart figures. Its a real pan to fire event! I remember an opponent in this years devourer tournie who used a Eldar army that he had borrowed frrom a mate (his mate had organised the force composition for him as well!). It was extremely painful game, especially as I was an Eldar player as well and had to explain some of the stats for his units!
Lerra
· 4 months ago
You should know the rules before going to a tournament certainly, but some people are just bad at memorizing numbers, and many players get nervous at tournaments, which only makes memory worse. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for needing to look up a number during a tournament. Personally, I'm horrible with numbers and will always look at the str/tng chart just to double check, out of fairness.
You just hope that the newer players didn't chose to play a horde army >_<
anonymous
· 4 months ago
I agree. Using prepared dice sets is a good idea i'm using too. For a 10 model squad u can use e.g. 8 red dices (for the troops), 1 blue and 1 green dice for special and heavy weapons. And 2 whites for moral checks. Dice sets did spare the time of counting your dices.
Archer
· 4 months ago
Very true.
I treat most games like speed chess, plotting out several possibilities during my opponents turn so when its mine, I already know what i am doing. I've been teaching my local Ork opponent the same methodology... and it has sped up his play.
As a GT vet, I know being able to move/think fast throws off most opponents- I really think many miss out on the chess aspect of this game, as simple as it is most times. With all the changes, the faster you adapt, the better the games will be. At least for you.
I don't mind players who borrow templates- often, I insist only one set on the table for ease and it takes no time to pass a template... but I do ask if they have their Codex and a list with them. having to look up stats is annoying and a time-sink.
valhallan42nd
· 4 months ago
I agree on the above points. I play a horde army, and it would be impolite of me to do anything but speed play. There's no excuse for a missing codex or list.
KINGS
· 4 months ago
I didnt even read past the title and all I have to say is... Thank you.
~kings
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
You should learn mix your gaming and your drinking. You wouldn't be in such a hurry to get the game over and get to the bar.
fade_74
· 4 months ago
Every decision should be made in the space of seven breaths. -Bushido Code-
an mous
· 4 months ago
Why is the lady eating a clock? Freudian weirdness, to be sure!
Sathos
· 4 months ago
Dont you love it when a lady eats your clock?
UltramarineFan
· 4 months ago
Fast and aggressive definitely seems to be they way forward if you want to win. Even for defenders in planetstrike it's a good idea to have a violent counter attack to fight back. It's something that my marines have only understood recently and I'm trying to alter my play towards bringing the fight to the enemy more.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
As they say. 'The best form of defence is offence'. I'm prep'ing my harlequins, banshees and striking scorpions to give some pain in our PlanetStrike campaign that is starting at the beginning of next month at our local GW. Escape hatch anyone hehehehe
UltramarineFan
· 4 months ago
When it comes to planetstrike the general vote is that it's termies for the win, even if you're defending. I recently had a planetstrike game with someone where he was the defender and he had three squads of terminators. It delivered a crushing counter attack to my measly two squads though it didn't help that I scuffed my reserve rolls and only half my army came on on the first turn. While he made every reserve roll he had.
DuK
· 4 months ago
There's a huge difference between playing decisively and playing fast and loose.
What I find really slows people down is agonizing over what to do next. I find it is a tendency of people who don't get to play much; this is the only game they get to play this week (fortnight, month, etc) and they don't want to make a silly mistake and get rolled.
that being said, they get totally hung up on every little decision (should i deep strike here or there, should i rapid fire or pistol and assault). By the end of the game they're stressed (twice as much if they lose) and drained and end up not wanting to play again for another week (fortnight, yadda yadda).
Catzilla
· 4 months ago
I know what you mean. We played our local Bloodbowl tournaments on a time limit of 2 mins per turn. Fun!
Kirasu
· 4 months ago
I think tournaments should adopt a time limit for turns, so that each player gets equal amount of game time .. Horde players should have to play fast because they choose to play an army that is easy to stall with
If you only have 2 hours a round then each player should take no more than 10 minutes per turn, or 60 minutes total
Could give out clocks like chess does, because it really is frustrating to lose a tournament because you played Steve the ork player who has 120 models and doesnt know the CC to-hit or to-wound chart and moves each model individually instead of moving first model, then scooting everyone else up
zedsdead
· 4 months ago
sounds like jwolf is trying to get players to learn to play 2000 pts in 2 hrs so the BOLSCON doesnt become an epic fail as many predict on a number of other forums.
I agree that ive played games where i wish the other would pick up the pace..and this guide would be helpful... however i have to agree that 2000 pts in 2 hours for 7 games is asking for trouble.
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
I typically play 2000pts in less than 2 hours.....and I stop rolling dice and tell long winded stories.LOL. Saturday 2 out 3 of my tournament games were played in less than 2 hours. The 3rd we finished 5 full turns with 8 minutes to spare. IG vs. IG. The first game was finished in about an hour and 15 minutes.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
I've read this piece several times and each time it leaves me feeling like something's wrong here. I guess I find it strange that every single thing in the article could be reversed, and some folks would consider it great advice. Change the title to 'Why taking your time is important', switch a few things so it says completely the opposite of what it does now, and the bottom line is that the new, reverse version is also good advice! I realize that some people get annoyed with the imposed time limit at tournaments. Most of 'em give you 2 to 2 and a half hours for the game and tht's it. My friendly games take 4 hours at 1750 pts. sometimes! Of course, cigarette breaksand constant B.S.-ing, along with constant mockery and little 'dying model' performances slow things up, but those are sometimes the best part! I agree that being able to hustle during a game matters, and I wish people would stay during their opponents turn, and not wander off to 'update their facebook page' but what are you gonna do? Different folks, different strokes. I just think that espousing 'making more mistakes' as a good thing is, ummm...wrong, somehow. To slower players at tournaments I recommend-A)Know the mission beforhand, including any bonus objectives that can tip the result! Very important to spend the time reading those sheets you were provided! B) When you get to the table your game is at- don't get distracted by your opponent's models or anything else! Clever opponents will use this tactic so you don't have time to formulate a plan before the game begins. Walk up to the table, introduce yourself politely, then just as politely say "Excuse me for a moment while I check out the setup here. I'm kinda slow in the head, so I have to think everything through." Or something of that nature. C) Keep gaming! Nothing helps your speed more than simple experience and familiarity with your army. After a while things become second nature and your zipping through turns. D) Don't be anal! Don't measure every troop movement for a 20 man squad. Measure and move the front-rankers, and simply jump up the rear-rankers approximately to where they should be. Just eyeball it, please. This kinda behaviour, whilst it might 'throw off' your opponent will never ever win you friends, and very rarely ever really impacts the outcome of a game.
All Comments
It is annoying when you get players who have to check every chart, but I can give the newer kids a bit of slack there, or if I'm teaching people.
The most annoying is when you get people who say they "know their codex". No, you don't, you lying SoB, I've read it and you're wrong! :P I love shutting those guys down ^_^
Another important thing to do to keep you from rushing is to call out every roll, like, "Rolling to hit, I need 4+." That keeps a good game flow.
You want to train yourself to think quickly (rather than just acting quickly) so that you can access the battleflow at a glance, instinctively come up with a plan, execute it, judge the level of success or failure of the execution, the repeat the whole process. All without having to stand there, hemming and hawing, while trying to figure out what's going on.
but yeah, we don't play tournaments, and it's more for having fun and staying up until 1 am doing a four hour game or so. :3
But my point was that you should move at a pace that both players are comfortable with. If you try to fluster your opponent because you want to move quick he can get "too" flustered and start asking for rerolls and remeasures.
#2: I don't think fast playing hones abilities, but people should think about how to accellerate their game. Friend of me started with putting his guards with magnets on plates (similar to LotR unit bases). 1x 10men unit = 2x 4-5men bases and 1x heavy weapon base. Sure sometimes this is hard to use, but it works mostly. I think other hords like nids and Orks can do the same (use your imagination).
My 2-cent.
Doesn't help with assault moves though.
"Oh, look, they made their save."
I don't think the point of this thread is in any way to encourage people to rush through dice rolls.
It is the time people spend deciding what to do that can really prolong a game, and that is an area that can be improved without rolling dice frantically.
I'd think he was stalling, but these aren't tournament games, we are just playing around. During movement he moves every model exactly. I appreciate that he isn't cheating but really... first rank then back rank then the rest of the guys... that's close enough.
My turns take 10 minutes at most, his can take half an hour!
I had a kid last week who wanted to roll seperately for each of his ten harlequins against my unit of five rangers! When i made him roll for his Troup master first, and it killed all five rangers with his power weapon, he still wanted to roll for the other nine halequins!
Their armies are always a mess, they never have lists and generally have no idea how the rules work. Forget about tape measures and dice......
Then when they get it together enough to actually start the game you have to be patient and kind enough not to absolutely slaughter them because they have absolutely no clue as to what 'strategy' is.
I just can't deal any more, so I quit gaming with them. I've really tried to be the nice guy who tutors them during their first few games, but I honestly don't want to waste what little time I spend at a gaming table giving training. To a kid.
Too frustrating.
If I tell you one time, and you don't write it down, all your guys hit on 7s.
It gets a touch annoying after a while, especially when there are a few new players in our group, and I'm taking the time to roll slowly and explain each roll "my orks have strength 4 on the charge, your guardsmen have toughness 3, so the chart shows us we need a 3+ to wound you *rollrollroll*, These dice are the wounds, you have flak armour, so that's a 5+ armour save..."
And against the new players he just flies ahead leaving them in the dark as to whats even going on.
I love a slower game, where you can watch the action unfold in front of you, and you can build that narrative. Sure its not 'realistic' per say, wars dont happen at a leisurely pace with generals munchin pizza, but this isn't reality. Lets slow it down people, we're here to enjoy a nice, relaxing activity.
The not bringing army lists is another thing I've seen a few times that really bothers me, I tend to be fairly detailed when I write mine, I write the entire statline and break down the war gear and the like so when people do question I have the information right on hand, as opposed to sitting on a shelf on the other side of town. I do it as a courtesy for other players, is it so bad to extend that courtesy back? Some people...
I usually inform people what I have in the army that is different to the norm. Such as the Eldar psychics and Exarch powers. This is out of courtesy and I dont want to win a game just by them not knwoing what they are going up against! I would expect that in the 40K world that army commanders are informed of enemy new technologies and tactics!
I will admit to playing most of my games without a list on hand because I play a static list regardless of my opponent, and have checked it several times to make sure the points values are correct and committed it to memory - from one point of view I most certainly can understand why many would want to have an opponent's list there to look at, it could potentially seem like someone without one is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. On the other side of things, lists can be lost, if you run several armies at once, you've already got a large load to carry and the extra paper with all your lists printed out along with the errata printouts, etc. can get pretty hefty. They also foster some dependency - several players I know who do remember to bring their lists are constantly bringing them out and leafing through them whenever I have a brief question about a unit's wargear or profile. Because they haven't forced themselves to memorize what the model has or is capable of, they slow the game down. I certainly won't deny a request for me to write out my list if my opponent really wants one, as I said, I have it memorized and have no problem writing it out and even double checking the points once more for their benefit, but most of the time I've been given the benefit of the doubt, and my games run smoothly thanks to being able to recall all the information I need from my list or codex simply from memory.
Funniest was against David's nids last week... I took an allcomer's list as he said he was trying something new but didnt tell me what...
My list had no vehicles (but a couple of walkers) and he turned up with a hybrid troop heavy/anti-vehicle list lol
A hard fought battle that he won well but was very close at the end.
The same list however could be used to educate a newbie player as it used all 3 templates, scatter, various troops/hq and the walkers...the only thing it missed was vehicles.
I have set lists of 500, 1000, 1500, 1750, 2000, and 2500 pts. I only build generic lists, not lists based on what my opponent is fielding and their not cheese/beard based.
I always tell the person what the dice i am throwing represent suchs as 'green dice hit on 3+, bone dice on 2+'.
On dice throws, this leads to having more than one set of dice! Games go alot quicker when you can throw dice for a unit with mixed weapons in one go. I always bring at least three different sets of dice too a game. It also has a pychological effect against the opponent in my case when you throw 32 dice from a bladestorm of which 27 are green dice hitting on 3+, and 5 bone dice hitting on 2+ with re-rolls (due to guide) 8-).
My #1 pet peeve in tournaments is when there is a squad with 3-5 different weapons and the opponent picks up a bunch of different colored dice and starts rolling, expecting you to be able to follow. First of all, there is no universal standard that I'm aware of, where "red is melta" and "black is lascannon" or whatever. It makes it rather fishy when someone does all of their dice rolls in about 5 seconds with no explanation, almost like they are trying to hide something, and I hate to think that my opponent might be cheating.
Maybe I'll have to write a piece on why slow games are good practice, too. :)
Taking a good looking model off the board is never as fun as taking off the killer unit that is made up of slightly broken, unpainted, proxied models.
But, as others have suggested, fast play requires certain agreed behaviours by players. For example, dice discipline needs to be enforced: unneeded dice must be removed from the table or rolling tray; failure dice must be removed carefully to allow an opponent to acknowledge "success" dice; and a clear decision on the outcomes of cocked and fallen dice must be agreed at the outset.
That said, beyond that, in friendly games, fast games can be a great way to learn your army and codex. Play through in gentlemanly fashion without referring to the rules or codex, approximating rules where you can't remember them. Then check back at the end. If necessary, concede a KP or objective for each memory slip or error, but in friendly games it should just be a useful mutual learning experience.
The next time you play, those rules you forgot will be better reinforced thanks to the mistakes you made last time.
Which is frustrating when Eldrad stands around cleaning his cuticles for a phase.
I can't even count how many times I've forgotten a psychic power or unit in reserve by mistake.
However, I almost always let me opponents go back a phase, especially newer players.
Letting someone move something in the shooting fase is more difficult, because then the bastard act of tactically removing models to avoid the assault is jinxed.
Of course, that slows the game down. Immensely.
When it comes to rolling back a move, it really depends on what side of the bed i woke up on , even for newbies some time.
What JWolf is really saying (and don't you hate that saying? like why make assumptions ass? so I apologize for my presumption) is learn to play well playing fast.
This is most useful in tournaments, where many armies play for the win in round 5 or 6. How many of us would have won a game had it gone one more turn?
By the same token, it's impolite to slow play, deliberate or not. A friendly request to speed up should be honored. One of the examples was the guy that checked his charts each round... now I'm a polite dude, but that does interfere with the flow of a game - not so important in friendly matches but more so at tournaments. What are we thinking is appropriate here?
Perhaps I can be accused of putting too much emphasis on tournament play, but it is a different deal. We can all of us put up with more if money, prizes, or ego isn't at stake.
I remember an opponent in this years devourer tournie who used a Eldar army that he had borrowed frrom a mate (his mate had organised the force composition for him as well!). It was extremely painful game, especially as I was an Eldar player as well and had to explain some of the stats for his units!
You just hope that the newer players didn't chose to play a horde army >_<
I treat most games like speed chess, plotting out several possibilities during my opponents turn so when its mine, I already know what i am doing. I've been teaching my local Ork opponent the same methodology... and it has sped up his play.
As a GT vet, I know being able to move/think fast throws off most opponents- I really think many miss out on the chess aspect of this game, as simple as it is most times. With all the changes, the faster you adapt, the better the games will be. At least for you.
I don't mind players who borrow templates- often, I insist only one set on the table for ease and it takes no time to pass a template... but I do ask if they have their Codex and a list with them. having to look up stats is annoying and a time-sink.
~kings
What I find really slows people down is agonizing over what to do next. I find it is a tendency of people who don't get to play much; this is the only game they get to play this week (fortnight, month, etc) and they don't want to make a silly mistake and get rolled.
that being said, they get totally hung up on every little decision (should i deep strike here or there, should i rapid fire or pistol and assault). By the end of the game they're stressed (twice as much if they lose) and drained and end up not wanting to play again for another week (fortnight, yadda yadda).
If you only have 2 hours a round then each player should take no more than 10 minutes per turn, or 60 minutes total
Could give out clocks like chess does, because it really is frustrating to lose a tournament because you played Steve the ork player who has 120 models and doesnt know the CC to-hit or to-wound chart and moves each model individually instead of moving first model, then scooting everyone else up
I agree that ive played games where i wish the other would pick up the pace..and this guide would be helpful... however i have to agree that 2000 pts in 2 hours for 7 games is asking for trouble.
I realize that some people get annoyed with the imposed time limit at tournaments. Most of 'em give you 2 to 2 and a half hours for the game and tht's it. My friendly games take 4 hours at 1750 pts. sometimes! Of course, cigarette breaksand constant B.S.-ing, along with constant mockery and little 'dying model' performances slow things up, but those are sometimes the best part!
I agree that being able to hustle during a game matters, and I wish people would stay during their opponents turn, and not wander off to 'update their facebook page' but what are you gonna do? Different folks, different strokes.
I just think that espousing 'making more mistakes' as a good thing is, ummm...wrong, somehow.
To slower players at tournaments I recommend-A)Know the mission beforhand, including any bonus objectives that can tip the result! Very important to spend the time reading those sheets you were provided! B) When you get to the table your game is at- don't get distracted by your opponent's models or anything else! Clever opponents will use this tactic so you don't have time to formulate a plan before the game begins. Walk up to the table, introduce yourself politely, then just as politely say "Excuse me for a moment while I check out the setup here. I'm kinda slow in the head, so I have to think everything through." Or something of that nature. C) Keep gaming! Nothing helps your speed more than simple experience and familiarity with your army. After a while things become second nature and your zipping through turns. D) Don't be anal! Don't measure every troop movement for a 20 man squad. Measure and move the front-rankers, and simply jump up the rear-rankers approximately to where they should be. Just eyeball it, please. This kinda behaviour, whilst it might 'throw off' your opponent will never ever win you friends, and very rarely ever really impacts the outcome of a game.