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Uncle Joe
Especially MEQ.
Currently my newest list has 85 men in it just to survive the inevitable amount of bolter fire I expect, I have a decent spread of plas/melta and flame (I used to spam) and Ironhand to eat Monsters, tanks, vendetta etc....but how do I survive a 3+ horde?
Because a development that seems to be coming into simultaneous effect with this MEQ horde list, no one puts cover on the table anymore. When you have mobile cover from vehicles and 3+ armour saves, those rows of sandbags or those clumps of trees on the terrain shelf become redundant.
Even the battle reports on BOLS youtube channel look just like my hobby centre tables, huge wide open spaces for your vehicles to drive up and down, hardly a tree in sight for a poor guardsman to hide behind...
Now, everyone takes lots of bodies, lots of light vehicles, and lots of melta. Grey Knights can't do that. We're stuck in Land Raiders, and have no melta weapons.
Now with widespread use of melta, our Land Raiders aren't that intimidating any more. At the same time, the lack of bodies and cheap vehicles prevents us from taking advantage of some of the changes in 5th ed that other armies have come to rely on.
Problem solved.
Instead, I've started allying in a couple Sisters of Battle squads. They give you a nice, tough shield to keep them away from your Land Raiders, and give you meltas to boost your anti-tank. It still isn't that powerful, but is definitely stronger than pure Grey Knights (and Sisters are much better than Inquisitorial Stormtroopers).
Regardless, IST's and Inquisitors kinda suck. Anything IST's can do, Sisters do better (except 5 man suicide squads).
Chaos Daemons are also really high on the list - either Epidemues (sp?) or Juggernaught destroy my guard regularly :) Deep stike all around, what do you do? :) die for the emperor :)
High killpoint armies are generally far better than low killpoint armies.
In our region, the better players have consistently scoffed at internet powerbuild lists like Nob Bikers and TH/SS+LR spam. They're crap, and always have been.
The metagame at the higher levels focuses around high killpoint lists, and for my own group the application of 3 simple standards, with any good unit selection covering 2 of them ...
Reliable anti-tank (for the points)
Reliable anti-infantry (for the points)
Durability (meaning cost to kill compared to cost to field)
I don't think it's generally fair to fixate on the units or armies regularly fielded, because Warhammer 40,000 is not listhammer. I've been having fun trouncing ultra-tailored competitive builds with power armored grey knights and a 400+ point straken squad, for instance ... entirely suboptimal army builds.
The *best* armies at present are high killpoint, 2/3 of above optimized guard and ork armies, and space wolves are ... while better and more optimized ... still just overcosted one wounders, and can't compete properly with orks and guard as a result, when comparing similar lists and skill levels.
My point is if you are going to write an article with some seriousness, dont put childish digs in it or people will find it hard to take you seriously...its like finishing a lecture on nuclear physics with a selection of "your mum" jokes.
sw being compared to chaos has been going on since they came out.
You sir sound like a GW fanboy. Not to be confused with any specific army fanboy but just as annoying and closed minded all the same.
E for EFFORT! wow
Really there should be a disclaimer stating that whining was occurring and at what would be unclear.
C:GWFANBOYBIN\MOVE Santhos C:PPFANBOYBIN
40k standup "Your mama's so FAT that Khorne couldn't find her skull!"
as for a GW fanboy? it is no secret that I prefer Privateer press. No go and reread my post properly and you will see that what I am referring to is this trend of calling spacewolves "chaos mark 2" because the chaos players look at the SW codex and see all the things they wanted but didnt get and cant help whining about it which is fair enough but had no place in this article.
well done for trying though
Why do people keep spewing crap like this? SO WHAT if someone only wants to play one army. Why should that annoy you? And how is it close-minded if there is only one army that people like the style of?
Also you are a 'GW fanboy' just by playing their games.
To be a fanboy of something means to blindly believe with out any outside knowledgeable reference* that the subject of your loyalty is the end all beat all best ever!
*IE. Just because you have a outside reference doesn't mean its knowledgeable as you may not have the capacity to understand the differences.
40k standup "Your mama so smelly that Nurgle kicked her out!"
In make believe fanboys can be cool like that but in the real world they are far from genetically enhanced power armor super weapon toting killing machines.
Exception: If you count B.O. as a bio-engineered weapon of mass destruction then fanboys may have that one.....
Seriously dude, pull the stick out of your ass.
And no, before this is taken out of context, its not a jab at Americans nor is it an insult at anything its simply a musing as to how this seems to have gone from a posted thought/opinion to some kind of internet war entriely based on what is probably misinterpretation.
40K standup "Your mama so UGLY when she met Slaanesh he just said 'No thanks'"
"Your mama so ugly Tzeentch passed her over for spawn mutation by mistake!"
"Your mama so diseased Papa Nurgle asks her for advice"
**edit** yeah, nothing personal taken here either...its the internet and truly taking offence to anything written by someone you have never met is just crazy.
I certainly didn't mean to whine or dig; I was making what appeared to me to be an obvious comment about the basic line troopers for CSM and Space Wolves. I'd have gone into moredetail about this change, but I think we're all about overstuffed with Space Wolf talk about now.
I realise there are direct comparisons it was simply the way it was phrased that
I baulked at after having seen pretty much the same thing spammed across
"teh interwebs". I retract my original comment and make a move to drink more coffee
before replying in the future lol
I realise there are direct comparisons it was simply the way it was phrased that
I baulked at after having seen pretty much the same thing spammed across
"teh interwebs". I retract my original comment and make a move to drink more coffee
before replying in the future lol
I play DA, we got the same :(
But I agree with Jwolf, PMs are boring: Now they just suck up wounds, and that's basically all they do. Assault with them is dull. Shooting at them is dull. Unless you're playing Guard and loading up on pie plates or playing Marines of some flavor and loading up on power weapons/frost blades/thunder hammers/lightning/wolf claws, Plague Marines take too long to kill (and to die!) to really be fun.
I also have a Deathguard army that I've been collecting well before the release of the newest codex.
Also, Khorne has been the most popular CSM army I've faced over the years. I've actually only seen Plague Marines become popular with the newest CSM codex.
I'd rather hear "You actually play them" over *Yawn* "another PM list, what dual Lashes too?"
ALL Armies are horde armies!
30 Tac, 10 Dev, 10 Assault, 5 ATerm & LRC and the rest is support vehicles and HQ.
It's a great idea and I've tried the exact same, it just doesn't work as well you you'd like it to.
PS i love my dual 8-body, 4 ML, Dev squads.
Interesting meta you have. Any Tau players?
I'm as disappointed as a miscarriage.<yawn>
My list is roughly 5 devilfish (pathfinder/FW), 3 Hammerheads, 10 deathrain suits and pirahnas... give or take depending on points.
But, mechanised is still winning out from what I can see.
As for Tau, I took a mechanised force, but many people went Battlesuit and Broadside heavy instead.
Now I run 5 squads of 9 strong wyches in raiders under the command of Lelith. I have yet to play many games, but have already realized how awesome they can be. The tactic I use it to bait my opponent with any warriors I may have had the point to waste on (in my first game, a well placed template from a defiler killed a whole squad of 10, yikes!) and to hold all my wyches in reserve.
Then there is the ravager. Sure it's made of paper, but it's a monster when upgraded with (2) disintegrators. It allows me to move 12" and still be able to shoot 6 shots at AP3 and BS4 since S4 weapons are still "defensive." If I have to fight some plague marines, I just slow down to 6" a turn and place a nice pair of what are essentially plasma cannon templates on them (AP2 is sweeeeet).
Did I mention that dark lances are only 10pts for warrior/raider squads?
I'm honestly starting to hope that the deldar don't get an update:)
I can't believe that only a year ago I used to make fun of them every chance I got...
Group A. Archon on bike w/ two small Bike Squads as body guards w/ unit champs & blasters.
Group B. Drachon w/ Incubi and 2 warrior w/splinter cannon retinue in raider w/ unit champ and extra character.
Group C. Three Talos.
Group D. As many small squads of raider warriors as I can get with splinter cannon and shredders - no unit champs.
I try not to load up on much equipment except on my Archon and Drachon.
I hold everything in reserve and almost always go second due to the doll. This removes 1/3 my adversaries ability to shoot at me and capitalizes my speed to be able to claim objectives at the end.
I grouped them together above in the manor in which I use and think of them.
I can not over state groups A,B&Cs ability to be killy and draw attention. Between the three of them once they are all on the board there is always a look of exacerbation from whatever victim I may be facing especially if my reserve rolls are really good.
The army plays out like a Tsunami.
Group A is the forward Break of the wave able to zip around ahead of the main force supported by the lance fire from the raiders to take out armor and major threats.
Group B&D together provide massive amount of splinter & shredder fire as the height of the wave swamping infantry and Group B can deal with secondary threats Group A didn't have time to deal with or anything else that needs attention. If group B loses its raider despite group D giving them cover then a random raider from group D picks them up and continues.
Group C works together to protect the back field as the wake and if necessary threaten armor targets from that half of the board. I have used them to take on big stupid units also because its funny.
Over all its worked really well and I don't even have foot wyches in this list!
Ive been playing them for 5 years and it is time for an update, or at least fix the units that dont work or fit (everything other than lords, wyches, warriors and our skimmers)
No army can put out that much firepower at such a long range to reliably put down hordes and armor alike.
84 with an aun
Either way, this army won't do good against armies with transports since he hasn't got enough mid-Strength firepower to deal with AV10-12.
And if filled with Crisis, then they'll lack long-range AT and AP pies.
FW suck.
Twin linked flamers
" " tau version heavy bolters
And tau version auto cannon
all great options on 10+ Crisis suits
Suits any particular Crisis
Triple lith, 9 Wraith and fear armies are fail too.
If it isn't Destroyers, mech runs you over and even hordes can just waltz into combat and paste you.
Horde Necron works in his area, against his opponents. If you took your area's uber-killy roxorz list into his zone, chances are it wouldn't be as good, either.
Local metagame means that the game plays differently in different places, sir.
Come on. The game went from squad level rpg-lite (Rogue Trader) into company level (5th edition). Suddenly Apocalypse seems less and less apocalyptic.
GW should be attempting to draw in new players and retain the ones they have.
Who is going to invest more into a game that anyone that has been around any length of time has horror stories or any group of gamers of different games have people that left GW due to horror similar stories.
The fact is GW will expend more resources to try to protect and promote its reputation then if it just treats its constituency in a proper manor to begin with.
I am not a GW or a newbe hater nor am I a fanboy. I want the game to be around for a long time and have experienced players to challenge myself with. Telling experienced invested people to get out of the game doesn't help in any respect.
So yes it seems that the foot soldier is taking more importance in lists again
/facepalm
Second me have Blackmane n grayhunter spam. Basicaly around 4 units of greys and a blackmane in one of them, with all of em havng uber weapons. Basicaly blackmane and that squad cannot lose to any possible opponent in close combat as they git INT 5/6 and str 6 on a charge and all power weaps.
Finaly we have the Canis people who like to take him with some wolfs and send him in to occupy the enemy while the rest of the hunters drive up and finish of the job. Canis has a lethal24 inch assault bubble in turn one (assuming he runs 6)
1. Chaos Lash list, It's still ticking people off because you haveto get out of the rhino some time...
2. NIDZILLA
3. I see Horde Orks at my store (no mech whatsoever)
Honorable mention for being annoying goes to the Fate/Crusher list Gareth made popular...Thanks Gareth!!!
2. You best be joking
3. Now I know you're joking
Fatecrusher is really good, but only when you cheat. Did Gareth show you that too?
1. true, but eventually they blow up from a stern look and my girlfriend pointing her finger...
2. Lots of people play it, not many CC armies want to run into it, and it shuts down psychers completely...5 psychic screams and shadow of the warp = no one using a power....so much for world wolf...
3. Once again this is what people at my store play....unless you are pulling an IG list which can shoot them off the table 180 boys is a scary thing...and then you still have points to play with...
fate crusher is good even if you don't cheat...gareth did cheat at 'ard boys but it doesn't help when a judge doesn't know the rules of the game, and everyone knows all he care about is winning over having fun...
http://chaosgerbil.wordpress.com/2009/11/03/rev...
I want a more balanced and diverse army. I tried chimeltavet spam and I'm over it. I'll keep two of them but that should be enough.
This lets me use my other Chimeras to:
A. let my CCS actually do something and
B. allows me to take rogue psykers
Myself, locally we have some marines, mostly going mech, but Eldar and Nids seem to be the big two, and have molded the scene. None of the Eldar armies are quite the same. There's a long time Saim-hann player, a mech list, a Eldrad seer council, and then an oddity in the Avatar lead foot slogging army with some wraith guard that does surprisingly well considering
Throw into that a fairly consistant showing with my own Dark Eldar, and any given day you can be fairly sure you'll come across the potent Eldar weaponry and speed.
necron destroyer monolith warrioir armies
standard gaurd armies
of course troops choice ork armies ( mostly the wazdakka kind )
not that many space wolf armies yet but im going to a tournament (1500 ) on the 28th and expect to see at least afew )
but me im happy with the eldar my 1st and favourite army
The first is the MECH MEQs including but not limited to SW, smurfs, PM chaos and BA. Yes I said mech BA. At 2000+ pts, the Dante-Corbulo combo backed by jumping honor guard/vet assault squads, death company in a LR, mech assault squads in rhinos, and baal preds, all of which having overcharged engins (except the LR of course) is just nasty. If you don't destroy more than half their vehicles before they get to your lines, good night Irene.
The second army that has made a hugh comback is all varieties of guard. Most of they guys around here have had guard as a second or third army since 2nd/3rd ed. Slowly building it making it an ally in apoc or with WH/DH. So now that they can actually run their army without fear of being curb stomped every game IG has made a huge comback. Plus lets be honest IG now has more toys than anyone else around. Especially tanks and deep down we're all treadheads. ;-)
Finally the army that I've seen a ton of that is surprising is DH. Spamming the LR with vet guard back inquisitors for some close range punch, GK termies for CC, and cheap double melta ST squads to make LRs scoring. Add in unlimited range hoods, triple flamer retinues, good force weapons, and daemon killing stuff. THe DH are a seriously tough army.
-SJ
In my Blood Angels at 1500, I've got 46 bodies on the table(20 tac, 20 assault, 4 DC, Dante, Corbs), and they rightly kick ass. It's a lot of marines on the table.
My Space Wolves do it even worse. At 1500, I'm bringing 54 bodies to the table. Why? Because people get confused when they see so many bodies, especially ones that have 3+ saves. heh.
get over yourself.
I'm not about to accuse JWolf of anything except perhapes some poor judgement in his choice of picture/headline. We all joke about Commissars and such forth when playing this game, and talking about famous quotes like "Quantity has a quality all it's own." is fine. But there do need to be boundaries. And sypathetic/humerous portrayals of mass murderers need to be called out, lest we forget the stuff that happened in real life to over 10 million people in the former Soviet Union who had this guy as their leader.
But the picture shown is a "nice" portrait. "Uncle Joe" was a grating propaganda name used to sell our "ally" (Used to be Hitler's Ally) to the American public during the time we held our nose and averted our eyes in order to fight a different mass murderer. To cap it off, "Uncle Joe Wants You" is a twist/ridicule on the recruiting slogans that typically feature Uncle Sam, the mascot for America.
As such, I find it extremely offensive. I imagine someone in Poland, West Germany, or another former eastern bloc Soviet slave-state would find it at least doubly so.
I am not, by nature, someone who gets easily offended. But this matter offends me. And I know of at least one poster here and 2 at my local game store who feel the same way. So I'm bringing it to your attention.
If you and JWolf think I'm overreacting or nuts and wish to ignore my (and others) opinion, that's certainly your right as the owners of this blog. But I like BoLS, so I had hoped for better.
I've said my peace on the matter.
Ok, I'm sorry that I implied that it's your blog. You contribute quite a bit, so I lumped you in with JWolf and the rest. I was wrong.
As for pictures... images have meanings. And there are some things in life should be taken seriously. I know JWolf didn't mean to offend. I'm just pointing out his error in the hope that he will make more careful choices in the future. A simple "Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that." is all I'm really after.
Hitler: 9 million
Stalin: 20-24 million
Mao: ~60 million
Cheers.
Did you meant "discrete," as in different and varying? Or "discreet" as in showing good judgment?
I sometimes type the wrong thing, and sometimes those things aren't caught by spellcheck or myself. I've grown to accept this fact.
Guard variants, Ork, SM bodies and mech, SW, Tau/Eldar mech.
All other lists have been shelved.