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Please go back and read the threads for each of the last 4 new books. Each one has been the "end of the game as we know it" or reason to quit the game...and yet each is quite beatable if you know how to play the game. We will be ok....again.
Personally I liked the chance to randomly generate Orks in power armour with shuriken catapults on flying surfboards.
I'm really looking forward to my Necrons getting a new Codex. Not because I think the current army is unplayable. Not because I want new models, though a few new ones would be nice.
But because reading loads of posts saying "THE NEW NECRON CODEX IS BROKEN AND I'M QUITTING THE GAME" after years of reading ones that say "Necrons are teh suck" would be very, very funny.
Also, counter-attack is a lame rule to have army-wide and I wouldn't want to play as an army that had it. The difference between charging and being charged is a key factor in what separates the skilled general from the unskilled. Collapsing that difference isn't good for the game.
They won't break the game, and it doesn't sound as scary to me as tightly-constructed IG and even melta-spam Vulkan lists, but it won't make the game any more fun either. Well, except for young'uns who don't care about sophisticated gameplay and take what looks to become the most forgiving army available...
Didn't the designers say that SW would attract Fantasy players to 40K? What a joke.
I'm quite bored of this kind of conversation, every codex released is, even before hitting the table, considered broken. This game is about tactics, and the numbers are only the second in importance. Charging a unit of SW with my banshees because Mathammer tells me that i have the odds to win is a risk, but outflankng with ANYTHING, no matter how crappy is, to contest an objective, is smart (and game-winning).
Can't stand a SW assalut? Avoid it, and charge where you can hurt, or shoot the crap out of them. Of course there are armies better than others, but usually only the ones which codex is VERY old (Dark Eldars, Daemon Hunters, maybe Necrons...) are whinning-acceptable (and only a little).
However, you can always win with anything. It just will require more careful decissions. The mightiest gun can miss the hit and the mightiest Close Combat unit can fail the difficult terrain roll and die under bolter fire or be whiped off the table with the proper unit.
Personally, the more different armies choosable, the more fun in the game. Your codex is old and crappy? You will suffer more in the way to victory, but reaching it is double sweet. And don't forget it, winning is always possible, just keep in mind that, with the last released codex, you can make bad decissions and still win. With the oldest codex, you have to be a good player to win. Draw your own conclussions about this.
SW, welcome to the table again, hope to chop you soon!!
with the current dex hunters already have ccw and bolt pistol (unless you're stupid enough to actually pay 1pt more to give them a bolter and make them loose the extra attack) + counter charge (and accute sense which from my experience is useless). for 17pts. and they can take TWO CHEAP special close weapons per squad.
what they gain is a bolter, which they'll never use for rapid fire if they want to charge, and like you all said SW will all charge head on of course (am I the only wolf player who plays defensively ?). so no advantage here. the only gain is the 24" F4 PA5 shooting attack... great when you're in a rhino.
for blood claws it's even worse : they cost 1pts more ! 2 pt less for GH is broken, but nobody cares about the price of BC actually going up, while they loose their 12pts powerfist for each fifth of the squad...
so wolves will actually be worse than before in HtH due to the loss of at least one special close weapon per squad.
as for long fangs, with the new points costs they are actually almost as interesting as say... a predator ? wait, we already had this, so the game was already broken !
the only difference is now the wolves are the only marines army that can actually consider taking devas instead of predators for long range support.
conclusion : by deduction SW current codex is already a game breaker, but never heard anybody complain about it...
and finally : think a little. if GH are costing 2 points less, but their squad power fist is costing 10pts more, how many hunters should I get before I actually see a cost drop on my unit that would allow me to buy an extra hunter ? and how do I fit this in a rhino ?
in a 1500pts game you're likely to see maybe 3.5 hunters more than before, and they won't fit in vehicules... broken.
"They're too cheap if they aren't upgraded!" When's the last time anyone saw a non-upgraded army? Wolves are going to have to spend points on stuff; unit champions with fists, meltaguns, transports, etc (and have to choose between the options; since that can't have it all).
"They get a free upgrade" OOH, a single flamer (most likely), look-out! Come off it; they're going to trade it out and put in melta, like everyone else and that'll cost points.
"Longfangs are to cheap" Yup, nothing like 5-6 guys costing 20-40 points each with zero ablative wounds. They'll last all of 1 turn; a single plasma cannon/battlecannon shot, or deepstrikers/outflankers will take them out of the game.
No one even bothers to remember what they'll loose. Remember bloodclaw packs with 3 powerfists; yeah, people aren't bring that up. Gosh! could that be because of balancing issues, hmm? Making them less powerful against vehicles, MEQ and MC's?
At least the Wolves' codex will be entertaining because of it's difference and, as always, it'll take just a couple of months to devise tactics and counter-tactics.
All you whiners, just please stfu or die... or quit playing the game.
Since you are a whiner as well, are you telling yourself to "stfu" and die?
not seeing a downside here.
Anyway, what you're saying is still whining based on (somewhat credible) rumours.
People need to stop seeing problems where there aren't any. Get a life.
Running an army that supposedly are about CC but being far from good at it (comparing to the newer codices) and being about cheap troops thrown into the meat grinder (which 5th stopped being a viable strategy) I really look forward to being "upgraded"
Ohh, I gonna enjoy it when all SW/SM/IG/CSM etc player starts to whine of codex creep and unfair rules when the Nid-codex comes out. Because looking at how GW makes their codices that is inevitable...
I play Necrons, most armies are better than mine, I say bring it on SW. They're just Blood Angels with pelts amd a lame color scheme. Shoot em up before they get to you.....just like ANY other CC army, what's the big deal?
Just send your friendly neighborhood C'tan to FSU in CC.
You get everything and more at the same price as CSM? Whaaaa? No one can sit back and not go "Well, that's kinda off". Codex creep killed any ambition for playing Fantasy. Let's hope 40k doesn't start going that way.
SW Pros:
Counter Attack (SW gets a +1 exactly as if they have charged that turn
unless they were already locked in CC)
Acute Senses (SW get to reroll dice for night fight distances if they want
but have to keep the new results.)
BC get +2 Attacks on Charge instead of 1.
SW Cons:
No Chaos Gifts/Fearless Options/Weapons(sonic blasters etc)
Not allowed to shoot if within 6" of enemies (BClaws)
Any true Ld ship additions come with the price of having to allot a Wolf Guard into the squad (big costs for a +1 ld boost)
SW vs. SM:
SW Pros:
Counter Attack (SW gets a +1 exactly as if they have charged that turn
unless they were already locked in CC)
Acute Senses (SW get to reroll dice for night fight distances if they want
but have to keep the new results.)
Has Bolter/CCW/Bolt Pistol
BC get +2 Attacks on Charge instead of 1.
SW Cons:
More Costly than Standard Marine
No Heavy Weapons upgrades (means troops are solely combat balanced and
must move & Assult to remain viable point costs.
No Combat Squads (SWs can't use vehicles-mainly Drop Pods- to quickly
take out multiple targets at begining of game. Also means
squads will have to be bigger thus handicaped on objective
based missions. BIG DRAWBACK)
No Combat Tactics (SWs can't decide to fall back as a tatical advantage-
once they are in H2H they are stuck or they Die/Win)
Not allowed to shoot if within 6" of enemies (BClaws)
Any true Ld ship additions come with the price of having to allot a Wolf Guard into the squad (big costs for a +1 ld boost)
"SW Cons:
More Costly than Standard Marine"
Actually a point cheaper per marine.
SW armies are small: 50 guys in 2000pts will have trouble giving each
other cover saves. And if you really have a problem, take a Colossus or
three.
T4 with 3+ save dies to SO MUCH. This list is no worse than Chaos
Marines.
Honestly, all this "waaaaaah! They're unstoppable and unfair!" whining
is pathetic. Toughen up, cupcake.
Not to mention that the way you deal with devs is usually through combat and the Wolves are kitted for combat. Doesn't matter that it's their only choice for heavy weapons, it's still awesome and likely unable to be destroyed due to the huge number of mega combat death units between you and them.
Codex Creep......if the above is true and there's no drawbacks.... definitely!
As mkerr mentions below in regards to transport capacity.
The article was about the doubles tournament which they entered and one of the lists was a Marine+Marine list.
In this list, they had a squad of 5 scouts for which they purchased 5 camo cloaks....They then proceeded to purchase Telion who has the Stealth USR. Camo cloaks grant the Stealth USR.
Having read the Stealth USR and chatted with members our my local club and GW, we've all agreed that Telion passes this USR onto the squad....so why buy the Camo Cloaks?
Even if he doesn't pass this on, why buy 5 when Telion doesn't get any advantage from it?
It's a published article in White Dwarf which should have been edited and checked and the players of the list supposedly know what they're doing.
Read the articles they put in there for battles and you start to see what many people consider "rookie" mistakes in their army builds.
This is why I don't trust GW to test a codex properly before publishing or to even find the most lethal form of the list that could be made and testing that.
Beta testing codex's in specific stores but by invite only behind closed doors, maybe? Dunno, maybe get the testing players to sign a non disclosure form so that new stuff isn't leaked or if it is they get an ass kicking?
At least then the players get a say and can make suggestions as well as coming up with the "nod biker list" etc before the codex comes out and then finding out if it is too powerful for the table top.
XXXXX
Colossus Mortar Blast:
(-----------)
XXXXX
What line of sight?
Please people, toughen up. A devastator squad is NOT invincible.
It's actually a frustrating hidden limitation that makes building a Space Wolves army a bit of a pain (for a player used to the standard SM codex).
Space Wolves.
Ugh.
Good for wolf players but disappointing for the game as a whole.
And the HQ are NOT CHEAP. The named Ones are far from cheap points cost wise and the Grey hunters are CSM with ATSKNF, as they should be
Everyone complains about Codex creep, until it hits their army, and then they're excited! Perhaps this is why CSM players are generally more critical, because they weren't really "creeped" much.
signed future Space Wolves player
uuuuuummmmmmmmmm that is gay and retarded and i don't care what anybody says....... they should be 25 points a piece or more. Oh wait GW loves there SM so forgot all fairness. lets see what they do with dark eldar how much buff they give them, wait nevermind Fail there not SM so there going to make them 28 points a piece for a basic warrior.
But on the brightside now you make that Dark Wolf chapter for CSM i guess.
I don't think Space Wolves are gay retards, but actually it's kind of a funny visual.
Thank You.
So you get upset when someone calls someone gay or retard? Isnt jack tard (retard). You reallty are a gay retard.
And why sould someone use words like 'gay' for insulting people as long as there are sooo much less ridiculous and more effective insults?
Like... 'french' ?!
I enjoy a good perjorative myself, but we do need to avoid alienating the persons of Gallic extraction with limited intellectual functioning that have nonheterosexual desires.
Overall, lighten up on both end of the insults, please.
nah.
I think maybe you have a self image problem and just assume he meant it negatively. Maybe he meant they were Faabulous!!!!!?.
Or your just perceiving the worst as you have no intention of collecting wolves and jumping upon the "New codex must be broken" bandwagon.
Its been said in several places that everyone thought this about the new C:SM when it was rumours, and it turned out balanced.
Downsides: SC's costing between 240-275 points
No heavy weapons in GH squads
Cant take two HQ's with same wargear (Although you can take 4 HQs)
Reduced mobility (like orks) if you want to exploit the army... want 30 boys? well cant take a truck, want a truck for 10 boys? well cant use the fearless mob rule. Similar thing with the Bloodclaws & wolf guard in rhinos
-Run out of brain power...need coffee...too early.....some one continue this on
I would think seeing an army that supposed to be over powered as a gaming chalange. It was fun when CSM came out and everyone cried on both sides of the fence only to see some realy cool conversions and armies come out of it. Same with the new IG codex and watching everyone scream "Overpowererd!" and "Broken!" not all that long ago and I havent had a game against IG that wasnt fun win or loose (about 50/50 so far).
So an army is overpowered someone is going to find a unit combo to beat it or they are going to find a tactic around it and no one will care and in a couple months we wont be hearing anything about SW being broken its going to be something else.
All I can say is this. And everyone should take this to heart because its a good philosphy:
Stop for a second and care less in who wins and losses and who has the better army. In the end we are playing a game. Keep this outlook and see if you have fun just playing the game for what it is and if you still are not having fun with this game do something else. Please dont try and ruin it for those of us who are having fun because all that does is make everything worse.
ok I will get of my soap box now.
There'll be a period of readjustment in every gaming group as they get used to facing armies from the new SW Codex, whether they're collected by new SW players or existing ones.
Those who play in tournaments will experiment with lots of SW army builds and anti-SW army builds, there'll be tons of discussions on the net about what the best SW army is and what the best way to take them out is, one or two units/combinations of units will be touted as unbeatable and a couple of other units will be touted as not worth taking.
And then things will settle down.
Except that there'll also be a long period of people mixing up the rules from the new Codex with those from the old one... hell we're still doing that with the basic rules - commonly heard just after working out how wounds dice SM Scout Snipers need to roll: "******, sniper rifles don't hit on a 2+ anymore, do they?!"
I anticipate that for the Dark Eldar codex coming out, we will hear a chorus of whining about Codex creep once more.
I anticipate that for the Necros codex, rinse and repeat.
Ad nauseum.
Please people, with all due respect, shut up and stop crying and for once be analitical rather than critical.
There is a class called socilology and physicology, which are great classes for you to take if you want to learn about human behavior. Other than that stfu. Cause sometimes people that like SW and SM don't see the true facts about much bullshit this codex is going to have in it.
SW > CSM = BS
MIMIMIMIIMIMIMIMI y0u F@!1 391C1y
I'm just hoping that there's also a chorus of "These are the greatest models ever! These multipart plastic Wyches are amazing! And did you see those Warriors?"
The whining before play-testing, and even release, of EVERY codex is pathetic and ever so boring.
Give it a few weeks and everyone will have forgotten about spacewolves being overpowered just like they did for IG, Ork, SM etc.
For anyone who is actually sad enough to be scared of losing a game (emporer forbid) to the norse marines, worry not, for the new minitures are so piss poor i can't see many being bothered to paint them up anyway..
Mobility will be fine and you can still pack a huge amount of power by just taking rhino mounted Grey Hunters.
The grey hunters can take two special weapons, but only at full strength. Unlike ordinary Space Marines or chaos marines, they do not have access to an upgrade champion/sergeant. A wolf guard can accompany them, but this means that they cannot have two special weapons and a wolf guard and still fit in a standard transport, since it has been reported that the SW Land Raiders and Drop Pods only hold 10 models.
Second, I don't think CSM are going to lose out to SW. One word: Icons. I don't think anyone should underestimate the advantages an Icon can give to a CSM Squad. A built in teleport homer, with a one point bump to a stat. Nothing to sneeze at. Plus, the ability to summon Lesser Daemons. Now, CSM lesser daemons are generic, but are also a highly effective unit when used properly.
Regardless of that, the basic Tactical marine squad has to be at 10 man to take the special/heavy weapons.
Adding the wolf guard to the squad won't mean you can't take a max size squad with 2 meltaguns and kit up the wolf guard for nasty combat death.
Nah....I've used CSM and tried all the different Icons etc...you have to pay the same points for the icons no matter the squad size which is a big negative if you want lots of squads as you loose out. Secondly, the icon can be killed and take the ability off the squad (Telion for instance can take them from long range) and thirdly, they don't get special rules like "Counter Attack, Acute senses and ATSKNF"!!!
I don't see the down side here....
The loss of heavies isn't a big deal. I'm a Grey knight player, and never felt good about not being able to move and shoot when I tried out SM's. Being able to take 2 specials makes up for not having heavies, especially when you have more CC oriented troops.
So basically, SW's loose the option for a Sargent (kinda) and get +1 attack each from 2CCW. I'd say that should put them at either 16 or 17 points if compared to standard SM's, but I think SM's should still be 15pts each so I'd be willing to grant SW's their price value.
And now that virtually everyone is getting grenades for free, I think it was more chapter tactics that cost extra on SM's.
They still going to collect dust cuz you have to buy new models cuz the old one look like crap. You fail again.
please delete your account cuz u failed twice in one post.
ATSKNF - And They Shall Know No Fear
So maybe it wasn't that bad, but I was definitely told how cool he looked and how awesome his rules were.
While his entry is ok, I still couldn't believe how goddamn rediculous he looked. Canis looks goofy, the wolf looks sloppy... its just altogether lame. You get useless fenrisian wolves as troops? No thanks, I'll pass. Need to make room for the actual marines that count as scoring units.
Altogether, I was pleased with how little I'll need to do to dust off my Wolves and plop 'em on the table. I don't think ANY of my models became obsolete.
The new sprue is amazing, you can definitely combine that with a box of vanilla marines and have about 20 models kitted out. From the look of the hobby section, it looks like the termies will also get a plastic kit.
My reason is consider the base of Canis model and the fenris wolves base. Rules stated 2 inch apart right. You can create quite a big screen to cover your main spearhead at the back. Dont you think so?
Playing marines, I want battle brothers on the field. It just feels like a circus with wolves running around and clowns riding giant, elephant-sized wolves. For me at least, it feels a lot less like a band of hard as nails killers and more like... dunno, something not as grim and dark.
I mean, are they going to add hovering, screamer-style shark units should the Space Sharks somehow manage to get a codex?
you have to paint a whole army blue/grey .............
so far as i know so far tahts about it. you may also have alot of kids trying to tell you they know how to play space wolves within the next 6months.
If you stick to the ridiculously undercosted Grey hunters and the other Space Marine staples, you'll basically have an SM army like any other, but better, for the same cost.
Undercosted maybe. But IMO not ridiculously so, especially when you read the the above, read between the lines, and consider what they seem to have lost.
Just the 2nd paragraph alone...
- Combat tactics (used together with ATSKNF) as used by "smurf"-marines is brokenly powerful. They just lost that
- Combat squads is another halfway major/minor loss... your mileage may vary, but IMO it does mean a hard choice between "packing your men into easier to kill big groups" and "more kill points"
The only other advantage of combat tactics was the replacement offered by special characters and that comes at the cost of the character....which can usually still be killed by instant death.
As for loosing combat squads....If the above is true and the generic wolf troop comes as CSM with 2 close combat weapons and counter attack....I'd take full size squads with 2 special weapons and slap in a grey hunter before sending them flying across the field. ATSKNF will stop them getting killed off in combat or running after loosing half the squad meaning that even 1 guy can claim.
Bigger squads, to me, are harder not easier to kill.
SM's get Combat Squads and Combat Tactics, CT is of marginal use at best and in most games never gets used once. Combat Squads sometimes sees use but also makes SM units very easy to destroy in detail.
On the other hand, SW's are cheaper, get an extra CCW meaning they have an additional attack, get Acute Senses, and Counterattack, meaning they get 30 attacks for a 10man unit when *they* get charged, and they can take 2 special weapons in a unit.
yeah that's broken. oups ! they had all this in v3 for 17pts already !!! (alright, they changed their second power weapon for a second special weapon)
I mean right now my GH pack have ccw, pistols, countercharge, acute sense, get 30 attacks for 10 men when *they* get charged, and with two power weapons/fists !!! uterly broken...
now what do they gain in reality :
- costing 2 pts less. so maybe 20pts for each 10 men strong units (and then take note that BC are 1 pt more so all in all, you only gain 1pts per GH/BC pair). 20pts they'll be spending on HQs and Elite choice, which seem at the time to cost more than before (see the base points of the wolf lord and the WG).
- they do have a bolter in addition to their ccw and pistol now. that's absurdly broken. I MEAN A BOLTER !!!
I tried to rebuild my current army with all the informations we have at the time. The only things I gained were 16 bolters on my GH, and +1WS on my Lord. God save us all, SW are much more powerfull than before !
The proof is in the pudding, when someone actually considers the costs of EVERYTHING in the army, the force org and the like, and has to draw up an army list with these things and send it into battle.
I have a slightly BAD feeling about The Space Wolves and their competitiveness. When the writer said 'they'll always be outnumbered', two words sprang immediately to my mind: 'Daemon Hunters'. (or 'Ogre Kingdom if you like fantasy')
It serves to make the Longfangs more important, and the SW player will mourn their loss when you focus shots upon them.
They will still have plenty of ranged capability.
That's just my initial observation, since I haven't seen the codex yet.
Even if SW's had the option for HW's in Troops squads, almost nobody would take it.
SW's still have Predators, Land Raiders, dreadnaughts, razorbacks, etc for long range firepower that's also mobile. The only thing they are lacking in this regard is the HW's in Troops units, and again, very few players would take them even if they did.
and guess what, 5 new LFs with 2 lascans and 2 HB will cost between 15 and 30pts MORE than a predator with 2 lascans and 1 AC.
now as a wolf player if I'm looking for optimisation, I'd take the pred cause I think it'll survive longer on the battlefield.
but it's true that now I can consider taking LF, whereas when this squad costed 200pts, it was out of question.
so, can we say the price drop broke the game ? no : all marines always had access to heavy weapons in this range of price.
on the other hand it could lead to more variety in heavy support choice, and that's a good thing I think.
Of course SW won't be unbeatable but again GW comes with a codex where the troops gives more for less points. If they continue like this every troop choice in future codices will take up two pages to explain all their special rules...(Disclaimer: The codex haven't been released yet so it might be different but I don't think so)
The wolves are so uber in CC now, you cannot attack them, since they hit you with even greater force in your face back.
Think an option to beat them, will be shooting them all down. And shooting SM down is hard task, since they won't ever flee due to ATSKNF.
You will need A LOT of battlecannons!
10 non-upgraded Stealers versus 10 SW
Stealers should get the charge because they're fleet.
30 attacks. 20 hits. 3 to 4 rends. 7 normal wounds. Space Wolf player will fail, on average, 2 saves. That's 5 to 6 dead SWs.
15 attacks back from the wolves. 7 to 8 hits. 3 to 4 wounds. 2 to 3 dead stealers. Genestealers win.
And if you give the stealers an extra attack, they'll do even better. 40 attacks, 27 hits, 4-5 rends, 8-9 regular wounds, 3 failed saves. That's 7 to 8 dead SWs.
I just don't like the fact that SW seem to be cheaper than normal Marines; otherwise they die just as "easily" as normal Marines do. On top of that SW still don't have Ironclads, Sternguard, Thunderfirecannons, (option for) syncronized Meltas/Flamers, affordable Terminators, 12man Drop-Pods, and as far as I know Longfangs are still 5man max.
I go and polish my Linebreaker Squadron now....
if you want that broodlord (who takes one of the HQ slots so you lose having a second tyrant) make it nearly 400 points for the sqaud of 11.
don't forget to add in how easy is it to knock down those stealers down if they have a poor outflank entry with ranged attacks. not saying stealers are bad but don't inflate all the expensive options in order to balance it out or make your point
if this is all true how many SW can be purchased for the same cost?
Either way, the races who already have 5th ed codexes won't find them all that overpowering, and those who don't, will be happy enough when their new codex comes along, so until then, just figure it out.
that's actually pretty funny when all the examples you give can already happen with the v3 dex (yes wolves already have berserk charge and counter charge !)
the only change is the point cost, 2pts less for GH yes, and also 1pt more for blood claws... broken I tell you
and when you consider they swaped one of their special ccw for a special shooting weapon, I can't see how they'll be more effective in close combat now... or does that mean they're uber-uber in cc with their v3 dex ?
???
They got a second close combat weapon and counter assault. But if they get charged by genestealers, 6-8 of them will still be dead before they ever get to hit. Assaulting them isn't really any different than assaulting 10 CSM's with an Icon of Khorne, and that isn't exactly the scariest unit out there. True assault units will still eat them for lunch.
"I can see why people are complaining but, at the end of the day, your genestealers will still rend them, your battle cannons will still blow them to bits, and your nob bikerz will still ignore whatever crap they lob at you. *insert example for each army*"
"a space wolf army will always be outnumbered" ... 'cept when they play other marines right? their only downside would be a lack of "super customization" that one sees with the current space marine codex (ex: biker lists)
Yeah,
by Guardsmen.
seriously i realy look forward to dusting off my old spacepupies .
what i hope is the rumer you got to kit out evry squad with DP's in order to have the option.
at 35$ each pods get expencive ya know.
The problem is that against other Marine armies and equivalents, SW's really are very clearly better for pretty much the same cost, at least in terms of basic troops, which really are the meat of an army and what you should be beefing up on. I wouldn't want to bring a vanilla SM army against SW's, I just don't think it would be fair at all, the SW's, assuming they stay away from the overly-tailored expensive Wolf Guard and the like, will simply eat the normal SM's alive in CC for the same cost or less and be just as competent in short range shooting combats, while both have mostly the same options for long ranged ability.
Given that SW's seem to be no worse at shooting than normal SM's except that they can't take a HW in normal squads (that most players wouldn't take anyway) but can take 2 specials, I don't see where the normal SM armies are going to have any advantage.
One heavy weapon in a line squad is not going to kill 33-50% of a Space Wolf unit by the time it gets across the board, especially if rhino mounted or in Drop Pods.
Most SM players get marginal use, at best out of the Tac squad heavy weapons. My CSM's have never had a problem making it across in enough force to bring normal SM's to hand to hand combat and defeat them. 3-4 extra heavy bolters or missile launchers is certainly not going to make the difference you are speaking of.
Unless the board is clogged with terrain well past the recommended 25%, they'll typically have several rhino's at or in your deployment zone turn 2. My CSM's have lost maybe 3 games out of perhaps 25 to normal SM's in the last 8 months of running a mech list, and that's how most SW lists will likely play. Don't forget that once they get to you they can use their meltaguns and the like from within their rhino's as well to shoot back.
TL:DR 3-4 PC's isn't going to stop a rhino rush SW or CSM army (they will both play similarly) unless you can tear them out of transports in one turn (not likely) and after that they will generally be amongst you.
It sounds to me that either: You are really good at 40k =OR= your opponents are suck.
Then again I've never, ever lost to C:SM so maybe I'm in the same boat.
And yes, we wolves are also good in shooting, just as CSM are (even more with the next Dex). The way to win with the wolves is to create a good and balanced mix of shooty-squads (grey hunters with rhinos, long range support via tanks or shooty termi) and CC-specialists (Terminators, HQs and blood claws, even if they totally suck against MEQ in the moment).
SW are not supposed to be played like khorne-freaks or orks.
@Kungfuhustler: If you actually believe that any sane marine player (exept for templars, but they still have the good old crusader) would actually let his men attack by foot, you're the unexperienced cup, not Roa.
It doesn't represent a cult unit unless you want it to. Use the rules for Plague Marines and model them as a tougher, more defensive Undivided marine, with some cool technology. How hard would that be?
I like some of the toys in the CSM, but I don't want my army to be Chaos, just renegade. Noise Marines are my experimental, high-tech weapons squads. Heretical enough to fit just about any fluff requirement you want. Khorne Berserkers... Drug boosted and biologically enhanced through unapproved methods. Same heretical fluff. No cults there at all, but a plausible and effective story is already built for the army. Edit: Oh and Thousand Sons are an automaton robotic army led by, well, a sorcerer. That's the smallest stretch, but I figured I should add it anyway....
I know GW fosters the whole creative hobby aspect, but it seems to really kill the "creative" for a lot of people. Rule Number One should be - Separate rules from fluff and be creative on your own terms.
Yes, the troops things is a little bit mad, considering we save points on a Tac squad (GH) before you add in upgrades, but we don't get any army wide USRs like C:SM does, so no twin-linked meltas, Stubborn, Fleet but we get to see further in Night Fighting, which is useful for one turn of the game if you even roll up NF in a game in the first place.
The ICs are still going to be costing a butt-load of more points to kit them out in comparison to normal marines; e.g. no built in 4+ inv save for our Lords.
I'm not going to sit here and say that it's balanced entirely, as I'd be lying if I was. Some things are better some are worse, we've lost our troop capacity in vehicles after we had the use of the C:SM versions of pods and raiders. Trust me, that makes a difference to this army when you have to buy an extra sergeant if you want one in a squad for BCs to stop them legging it in random directions. On the upside we have split-fire Devs that are exactly what we had before, they're just not a huge points sink now. 36 points for a LF sergeant with no weapon? I'll pass thanks GW. 35 for anything better than a missle launcher? Nah, I'll just take more troops thanks. I can't even remember the last time I took a LF pack. They're just a few examples.
But what would you rather face? An army that saves 20 points on a basic squad or an army that can chuck a DP down and open it up with 6 Terms with 4 ACs in it? Get two minor HQ options per slot or us pay the old 12 points per powerfist in the current dex?
Go look at the Rune Priest powers and THEN tell me the codex is broken! :P
Jaws of the World Wolf anyone?
Personally, after seeing about 80% of tournaments I go to contain double lash/plague armys go into top 5 everytime, Chaos players can't really whinge about another army having good options in it's book....
Besides, just think of us who have waited years for the update when loads of people jump on our bandwagon because the codex is 'cheesy'/'broken'/'uber' cause they just want the next good list......most of us are revving the chainswords already....
Acute Senses and Counterattack. Did you somehow miss those?
IC's only cost a buttload of points for the SC's, you can still make cheap and dead killy normal HQ's for 160 or so points like everyone else.
Double-lash is a one trick pony based around a single psychic power. Given that your basic 10man troops squads are hitting an enemy that charges *them* with 30 WS4 S4 I4 attacks, that's a huge boost.
You basically get all the basic CSM goodies, plus ATSKNF, plus Acute Senses, plus Counterattack, for the same price as a basic CSM, plus a free flamer at 10 strong. So for 150pts a CSM player gets 10 SM's with Frag/Krak/BP/CCW/Bolter, you get 10 SM's with Frag/Krak/BP/CCW/Bolter/Acute Senses/ATSKNF/Counterattack +1 Flamer. Can you see where the creep has set in?
Given that this is going to be the meat of the army, and you still retain the vast majority of the normal SM unit options like Predators, plus all the wolfy Space Wolf stuff, I think you can see why people are sorta looking at SW's with some consternation.
Counter-Attack - Yeah ok, yes that had slipped my mind, but it is still dependent on passing a Ld roll for it to even work. It's a great power, but it's not the same as having a permanent army wide reroll to hits on certain weapons or Fleet. Besides, it's just like the current codex - people just WONT charge you cause they'll know about it. At the moment SW get more attacks for being charged than on the charge with the Wolf Pelt CA stack, and that really needs fixing to make sense.
We wont have Combat Tactics, Combat squads like C:SM do, cause well they're codex tactics.
Yes we get a free special weapon, but C:SM get a free heavy weapon themselves. The difference is that we will have more maneuverable troops choices as they don't have to remain static to fire the extra weapon. Basically we gain Acute Senses and Counter Attack where we lose Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. Net gain and loss = 0. But you are right with the BP/CCW and Bolter - those extra attacks make the difference. But SW are a mainly assault force so that's where they should be strong. What would be the point in going 'this army's great in assault, except they're really just grey Ultramarines who are as good as them'? The main point I notice is that were better in assault than C:SM, but were still as good at range.
I think people are jumping the gun again with the reaction. Like every new book, it's just what happens. I'll probably do it when the new DE or Necron book comes out :P
Guess how it will be when DE or WH/DH comes out?
That's arguable. I've got some Nobs that would probably disagree. And I hear that IG Melta Vets think they're pretty hot, too.
In the end my partner made only one save, and he made it.
In the end the demon was unaffected and I lost 4 marines.
So much about the whole "2 dices on the charge vs. WS4"-story. If the new blood claws are not going to have some serious rules, I would and will always prefer CC- grey hunters (it's a real pain in the ass when the average CSM hits you on a 3+).
Screw additional attacks on the charge! Youngguns or not, i´ll expect Bloodclaws to beat IG in cc. At least that is what i want to see!
With WS3 you have to think twice before charging into IG. In my Opinion a Imp shouldnt be a match for a Bloodclaw in an one-on-one-fight!
10 Blood Claws charging 30 Imps are going to do the Conan thing unto them, you know, hear the lamentation of the IG's women as they enslave them.
40 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds, 10 or so dead. 20 survivors attack back, 10 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead Blood Claw. 10:1 kill ratio or so in models, about 3:1 in points. Why would you have to think twice about doing that, especially if you're in lasgun range and about to get lit up next turn?
Just scream and charge, baby.
And they're also hard to control with their "must charge any unit within 6", especially if the said unit consists of chaotics ;P!
That's all the whining you'll hear from me, I'm really looking forward to the next codex and believe me, it won't be overpowered.
The only overpowered race are mass-orks ;)!
So, assuming 10 vs 10...
if BC charge, they get 40 attacks, or 20 hits. CSM get 20 attacks, or 14 hits. BC wins by 6 hits or so.
if CSM charge, they get 30 attacks, or 20 hits. BC get 20 attacks, or 10 hits. CSM wins by 10 hits.
So it's pretty even, with a slight CSM edge, but BC have better morale rules (ATSKNF vs normal moral), and BC will probably have option for 2 Power Fists vs 1 in a squad. Looks like BC are better in CC, IMO.
CSM get better shooting options, with Bolters and 2 special weapons vs probably 1, but BC are better in CC, so overall I think that comparing BC to CSM shows them as pretty balanced.
Thought it was a little weird seeing Grey Hunters the same cos as basic CSM, but then I realised that CSM can have Marks and Heavy Weapons and come in squads of 20. And be supported by Obliterators. And throw a few 5 strong Lesser Daemon packs at them to slow them down.
Also, I'd like to see them try to run at some Thousand Sons, who just rapid fire them to death with some AP3 bolters. With a Lash Sorceror pushing them back so they can fire at them next turn without being charged.
Additionally, you could have a Defiler taking out squads with its battle cannon, and then charge it at their vehicles. From the sounds of things they probably won't have too many if they go to town with infantry.
So yes, Grey Hunters might be the same points but better than CSM. You're all forgetting that the CSM army has other options.
We don't need a well-written, balanced counter-argument. Don't you understand that we breath solely to whine about every new codex that is ever brought out. Regardless whether if we have actually read it, played it, or even know what is going on?
HERESY!
In the end, I just hope that the SW Codex has some higher costs, or other limitations, upon the ranged fire support. I don't mind that they're as good up close as CSM, I just hope that they don't get the ability to also get fire support from Fast Attack and Elites, that CSM currently lacks. Yes, Oblits and Defilers are superb units, but you only get 3 HS choices... while SM Codices now get excellent fire support from Fast Attack and from Elite choices, CSM just get more close-range/CC support.
A Codex where the Troops are great short-range, and has good ranged support available from Elites, FA, and HS, is probably better than one where the Troops are great short-range, but only has good ranged support available from HS. Frankly, though, this is more about a bad design of the CSM codex, where you have too many slots doing the same thing, than a complaint about the SW codex. A Codex SHOULD have good options in all slots, and it's not fair to SW to keep their Codex limited just because the CSM Codex has limitations (let's admit it... what's the last good CSM army that had major support from its Fast Attack and/or Elites?... and if they did, it was CC support from the Elites, not fire support).
Soooo, exactly as normal? Oh, except we lose the Ironclad.
Though its true about Elites and Fast Attack. I don't even look at the FA page when I write a list
I have problems to divide which of these Postings are just rumors and whichones are facts! Is there somewhere a trustworthy summary of what to come in the new codex? What is fact and what is guano? Are there clear answers???
A new unit of Wulfriders??? I can´t belive it! Aren´t BCBikers god enough anymore? Do we really need them??? (Btw: The designs of most new Models, specially Canis, could have been better!)
In general i have the feeling that the Sons of Rus have improved. But it was about time! For me there was to much focus on the leaders (HQ-units). The oldones were quite okay, but the last thing I needed were new HQmonsters. I always saved the points for the troops!
So if someone could answer at least my first question... pleeeease... ^^
We take that seriously.
What happend to the one-HQ-each-750points-rule? None talks about it... is it gone... or hasn´t it changed?
What´s up to the Wulffangs? Are there some optional squadmembers. Cos advancing Wulffangs could use some meatshields! (Ahhh f*** ... advancing or not, they always could use some meatshieds...) Usually my opponents think twice bevore shooting at them (to manny other targets ^^), but every loss is very painful.
Bender, sorry, I meant Bjorn, is back, baby!
Imperial... something or other... Imperial Guard, I think it was?
Same way that people will cry that the new DE Codex will be overpowered, and forget that Horrorfexes will not be 5 points anymore, or that they now have 10 point Dark Lances that can be taken 2 to a minimum-sized squad.
I thougt Powerfists get no additional attack when charging??? Or was it no add attack in combination with Bpistol?
But as I wrote bevore... I don´t wan´t to think twice bevore charging into a big IG or Ork or ______ * squad. The usual opions are to use BC in Rhinos or DPs. Rhinos and DPs give you protection, but it makes your squad small.
*Just fill in any Army that has WS3 or at last big squads... ^^
Now there is the option to run all the way, but specially against IG that seems like a BAD Idea to me. (Maby it has its worth as Bait or Distraction?)
After all, I am not sure, what my BC left-overs can do by the point they can begin to attack a unit.
Okay:
10 BCs on charge against SM and IG. Makes 40 Attacks on 4+. That gives me ca. 20 Hits to both. Makes 10 Wounds on SM and ca 13 Wounds on the IG.
In the End ca. 4 SM and ca 10 IG have to go. Doesn´t sound so bad, eh?! The catch is, that it is quite optimistic to think you can get 10 BC into CC. And remember those Models with Powerfist or Assaultweapon (less attacks!!!).
Depending on the Enemys INI you have to endure a variying retaliation...
Everything correct, or am I missing something???
And there are much meaner Untits out there then SM or IG. I don´t dare to Imagine CC with deathguard or Khornis... That seem to be a jobs for those Termis.
I don´t know what I am more concerned about: Rhinos with not enough transportcapacity or Marines that can´t beat someone in their own weightclass.
Less attacks, but WS4 would make me totally satisfied. I don´t need Khorneberserkers, but as far as I know, BC should come close to them. (Or am I wrong?)
Also, at 15 points, BC certainly shouldn't come close to Berzerkers, at the same number of models. We'll have to wait to see how the points are for weapons upgrades such as the hidden Power Fists, but right now a 10 man Berzerker squad with Champion and PF is about 250, so you could match up 13-14 BCs against them, probably.
Just as a coincidence, it wouldn't make a difference vs Berzerkers if BCs DID get WS4... Berzerkers are WS5 ;)
SW vs WE would be a bloodbath.
Looks like GW has made the same mistake it always does and given them efficient units without a commensurate points cost.
So, basically, every new codex that is coming out is taking a part of what makes Tau unique? I am getting sick of this...
After how the Tau raped the Eldar of all that they were, I have no sympathy for the bending over that Tau get.
And yeah, the Long Fangs have been able to split fire since the very beginning.
1. Ordnance.
2. Can long fangs get some extra buddies with them or will there just allways be 5 of them? then they can't allocate wounds to "unarmed" wolves when they inevitably receive an eathshaker round...
3. Wolf guards mean that squads can't go in pods and have a leader and second special weapons.
4. once I get the codex more problems will show up, they allways do...
A final note: if you think Space Wolves (or any other army) is too powerful, then why not play them? Im sure you will win.
Tata
The codex is amazing. I have held it, I had read it. I have looked at the sprues and drooled.
Things I will mention, some have been said, some have been hinted. I have read them from the book itself!
Everything in the book has acute senses and counter attack.
Long Fangs. Packs of 5 plus a Leader, so 6 total. 15 points each, all but Pack Leader must buy heavy weapons. Most expensive is Lascannon at 25, same basic costs as Space Marines for the weapons. Squad still has Split fire.
Grey Hunters. Packs of 10. 15 points per model, BP, Bolter, CCW, Grenades. 1 Power Weapon or Power Fist only. No heavy Weapons.
Blood Claws. Packs of 15. 15 points per model. 1 Power Weapon or Power Fist only. No heavy Weapons, BUT can take 2 special weapons.
Wolf Guard, LOADS and LOADS of options. Their wargear options takes up a full page in the codex.
Lone Wolf, This guy is a creature killer.... think Fantasy Dwarf Slayer and you got him. You even get a Victory Point when he DIES!
Thunderwolf Cavalry, yes, Wolf Riders, packs of 5. Str 5 Tou 5 RENDING.
Named Characters:
Logan Grinmar
Has Eternal Warrior. Also, at the start of each turn, He chooses Fearless, Tank Hunters, Favored Enemy, or Relentless for him and the squad he is with. Also, once per game all Space wolves in 18" get +1 Attack.
Ragnar Blackmane
Does add D3 attacks to him and squad on charge. Also gives squad Furious Charge. Also, 1 per game all Space Wolves in 12" get Furious Charge.
Bjorn the Fell Handed
13/12/10, 5+ Invulnerable. Reroll for table start. Objective if he goes down.
Njal Stormcaller
Ulrick the Slayer
Canis (The Wolf Rider guy)
??? "The Anvil of Rus" (Wolf Guard Thunder Hammer thrower)
??? (the Blood Claw trickster guy, cant recall his name)
In short though, the book, the artwork, the stories, EVERYTHING looks absolutely AMAZING!!!!!!
(sorry, more to type, but have to head to work, will add more later! )
Really? Have you played against competative marines? They all use vulkan thus they have no combat tactics and also have all short range weapons
Who needs TL meltas when you can have 2 in a squad without a combi AND have 2 attacks AND counter attack for less points!
-Devastators and Havocs are overcosted, so I don't consider cheaper weapons on Long Fangs to be a problem.
-If it's true that grey hunters can't take two special weapons and a power weapon sergeant in a rhino, that's a big downgrade compared to chaos space marines right there.
-Since even the very good basic chaos space marine isn't the kind of thing people often complain about, I don't think grey hunters will break the army.
Basically I think SW are going to be overpowered but on a scale that the previous codexes weren't.
my favorite HQ isnt back i almost always used a venerable as my HQ now hes just an Elite
im going to go hide in my corner and QQ some more
As a Tau player, I'm afraid I view all of this Space Wolf business with something between trepidation and nausea. /More/ power armoured loonies? Yikes. And these ones get to ride around on giant dogs, as well as dropping from the skies?
I get the distinct impression that I'm not going to be changing my tactics anytime soon: line up as best I can, throw everything plus the kitchen sink at the enemy, then wait for the inevitable clusterf**k when the marines reach my lines... which tends to be around turn two or three on a 4x4 board.
Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya don't. But y'know what? That's the nature of the game. Yes, each generation of codex just seems to be harder than the last. But is it really, or is just different? I can't blame GW for wanting to try newer, shinier stuff; it keeps it exciting in a way, both fluff and game terms.
And just think of it this way... Yes, we're all worrying now about how hard the SW are going to be, and just how many of the b****y things we'll be seeing from the local kiddies/tourneys/etc. But in a couple of years time, when my new Codex comes out and the shoe's on the other hoof, won't it be nice to hear the Wolf players saying the same thing?
So rather than view this as all bad, try viewing it as a learning curve. Change, adapt to the new situation.
And if that fails, joining them is always an option...
"Grey hunters will be equipped as CSMs, with Counter-Attack, Acute Senses, and ATSKNF, for the price of a standard CSM."
It looks like the new Chaos Codex to me. Ironically I have an army of painted Space Wolves, but since I like Chaos better I think I'll finish my Word Bearers first and use this book.
Wolf Players i look forward to meeting you across the table...