DISQUS

LordSandwich · 8 months ago

I'm sorry, I must have misread. Is that a transport with THREE twin-linked Lascannons at 130 points? Please tell me I'm hallucinating...

chris · 8 months ago

Yep, that sounds completely out there, especially considering the the points costs for the Leman Russ ranks. I'll wait until the book actually hits the stores.

Ryan · 8 months ago

yeah, also the fact that you can exchange said lascannons for heavy bolters for 5 points.

Steve · 8 months ago

Yeeah, No way thats right- A scout speeder giving you 30" scout+first turn movement letting you shoot 3 TL-LC at what must be side armour AND having 12 guys inside, no way on earth you get all that for 15 pts more then a Vindicator.
I guess its chimera like and they are lasguns. I'm very thankful that they're not open topped- otherwise assaulty IG would be born.

Deathstalker · 8 months ago

Actually you can add 2 Heavy Bolters (Doorgunners) for 5 Points, not exchange!

RealGenius · 8 months ago

Looks like they really want to sell those Valkyrie models!

They sure got me-- I've got to get at least 4, maybe 6.

Cue "Ride of the Valkyries"!

TSINI · 8 months ago

yup, hook line and sinker for me

dun dunun daa daa, dun dunun daa daa, dun dunun DAA DAA DUN DUNUN DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Forhekset · 8 months ago

Its absolutely ridiculous by any standards. Especially fluff.

How the hell can a Valkyrie generate enough power to fire 6 lascannons? And it can fly? And it can carry a full load? Not bloody likely.

A Vulture can only carry 2 at the most, and it's a dedicated gunship.

Admiral Halsey · 8 months ago

I'm sorry, are you expecting Gamesworkshop to stand by THEIR OWN FLUFF?

Particularly when Marketing and thus MONEY is at stake. If there going to the time and effort to make a pretty model, there damned well going to make it the most broken model about, so that everyone buys two. And then because it's a transport, they'll have to buy the overpriced new infantry boxed sets. Then because they don't have heavy or special weapons, they'll have to buy the command squad, and the heavy weapons box.

What's that, £98 for a Valkarie, guardsmen, and a command squad with no special or heavy weapons? ... And I need THREE OF THESE per fast attack slot?

Buy the way, has anyone looked at the points of the new 'Troops choice in a box' Battalion set? Because at 40 points for a guard squad, and a cheap junior officer command set, plus scout sentinal, that things coming in damn low, even after the heavy weapons attachments...

It is also exceptionally depressing to buy a 'Battlion' which is really just a single troops choice. You need two of those and another command squad just for the min force org chart (Note how GW just sold you the command squad 3 times) And thats £115, (Unless the rumors about this battalion set being more expensive are true.) And it covers about 600 points of guard.

I am overall, rather sickened by this new release. It is undoubtably the best thing to have ever happened to guard. It makes them pretty much the best army around ever. Which is, quite frankly, a little silly.

Has anyone considered how they are going to make future releases somehow more broken than this one?

Who's looking forward to the 4 point orks that will inevitably arrive in a few years?

*sigh*
Where does it end? Everything gets cheaper every edition. Are we going to have free armies? Has GW not learned that just making a poor army cheaper doesn't make it 'balenced?'
Cheaper, -and- better even...
And that releasing Codex's twice a year means that some armies miss five 'cheapening' cycles between sets, and become utterly retarded?

Also, who's been thinking about inquisition? And their poor innocent not AP 3 and will not be FAQed to such hellguns?

GuyLeDouche · 8 months ago

Holy hell, hows about waiting for the real codex to be released before succumbing to the black (nerd) rage?

Admiral Halsey · 8 months ago

What would I do with the Codex when I'm ranting about GW's marketing stratagies and pricing?

Unless all the confirmed rumors are wrong, and guard are roughly the same price as before, tanks don't squadren, Valkaries are cheap in price, and expensive in points, and GW have no in fact made a fail battleforce or released half as many men for only £3 cheaper, my rant is perfectly valid.

I'm sure Guard will be lovely and competative now. I just object to designing a rules set only around how many models you can make 14 year olds by.

Kaptain Krung · 8 months ago

Yes, shame on GW for trying to sell us plastic toy soldiers.....dude they're a business thats what they do! sell stuff! If it gets too expensive for your liking, stop buying it! I for one very often stuggle to buy it but i love my hobby, so wait a bit longer till i can get hold of the stuff as i'm sure a lot of others do to.

Guard have always been a cheapo horde army, ergo you gotta buy lots before its of any use but thats the players choice, don't like it? get SM!

I love IG look, rules and background always have taken years to get a massive force and now i can cram more stuff on the table cos they cheaper! that acctually makes me smile! My wallet may not agree but hey whatcha gonna do?

Not trying to piss on your parade directly dude, just it gets to me when people sit and moan at GW prices and how they stealing food from their mouth and clothes off their backs. Think of it this way, at least its not as if it's pricey but they're making Sh!tter models? They're at least craking out mighty fine minatures, such as the Valk, Blade super heavies, stompas and so on.

grimbeard · 8 months ago

my friend, why are you bringing logic into this? It is a game. It doesn't have to "make sense", it just has to look good. And boy, does it look goooood,,,,,,, finally an answer for those condescending SM players who have been asking my "why do you play GUARD?!?!?"

TSINI · 8 months ago

i mentioned in an earlier post on this very subject that the vendetta is the equivalent of glueing guns onto a sea king rescue helicopter, and it outperforming an apache gunship (the vulture)

it really wouldnt happen. i dont get it.

i also mentioned i'd like to see FW release an upgrade kit for the vulture to re-arm it with some serious nasties to at least make it a serious contender. it should be the equivelant of a flying battle tank, compared to the valkyrie flying transport.

Majestyk · 8 months ago

Blackhawks and Chinooks both have a pretty good amount of guns on them, and Hueys were up-gunned with rocket pods and chain guns at various times, non with much loss in terms of cargo capacity, because you don't want to carry large amount of live ammuntion inside the crew compartment. The main benefit a dedicated attack helicopter has over a transport is fire control, maneuverability and speed. If they implemented those things with a Vulture....

TSINI · 8 months ago

exactly,

one of the suggestions yesterday was to up the BS of a vulture, to represent the upped targeting systems, (making the vulture a more technologically advanced vehicle, along with more elite crews)

Majestyk · 8 months ago

that would make a lot of sense. I'd say to make it fast too, but I think that would be a little unfair. Maybe give it some kind of move-fire-move rule like the Falcon?

Sathos · 8 months ago

And also the ability to hit their target... the point you missed that me and TSINI hit on in another topic is that you can load a transport up with every gun you want... its still doesnt have the targetting capacity of a dedicated gunship.

My thoughts on that were that in game terms the valk should sit at BS3 and the vulture at BS4 (or something along those lines :)

Sathos · 8 months ago

hehe i'm slooooow today

Forhekset · 8 months ago

It's long been established that lascannon's take up a decent amount of space for power consumption and stuff, I mean a land raider has 4 and look how massive it is.

I dunno just seems extreme and doesn't have a measured hand behind it. I was under the impression it didn't even have that many hardpoints to begin with.

I guess things can change, we can now stuff multimeltas in the front of chimera hulls and have heavy sponsons on any type of russ, but it just seems like a crazy weapon free for all. What happened to tight, unwavering doctrine?

Stupid game :P MY POOR FLUFF!

RealGenius · 8 months ago

I've heard the Vendatta has no transport capacity and is a Heavy. That would make a lot more sense. Heck, just taking the transport capacity off makes it go from "broken" to reasonable.

I will hold off on the whining, moaning and complaining until I see the actual Codex for myself.

Of course, I see that others got started much earlier.

eriochrome · 8 months ago

Compared to a Predator with 1 TL Las and 2 Sponson Las at ~160 points it is still pretty out there. Give up 1 point of front armor for 1 more point side armor, fast movement, and skimmer.

Docrailgun · 8 months ago

I suspect that we will find that the Vendetta is an up-armored and -weaponed version of the transport, and will not have a transport capacity in the same way that the Predator is based on the Rhino.

Wait.... sorry. I was supposed to gnash my teeth and curse GW, right?

intellectawe · 8 months ago

Buy Valkyries?

Thank God I was born with an artistic talent. I'll just be making myself however many I need. I think I'll make 2 to start out with.

Must suck to rely on GW for everything lol.

TJX · 8 months ago

If you're so "artistic" then why aren't you working for ForgeWorld hmm?

Sorry dude, but there's are reasons why these models cost money -

1) they're the best looking sci-fi models out there, and unless you actually work for FW/GW anything you create would pale in comparison to the real thing.

2) it's called CAPITALISM, learn to live with it!

Illiterate Scrub · 8 months ago

'1) they're the best looking sci-fi models out there, and unless you actually work for FW/GW anything you create would pale in comparison to the real thing.'

dohoho

'2) it's called CAPITALISM, learn to live with it!'

which would kinda support the idea of cutting out excessive costs for the same, or better benefit.

TJX · 8 months ago

"dohoho"

Uhh... what?

"which would kinda support the idea of cutting out excessive costs for the same, or better benefit."

And that's what buying the plastic version is for. So I guess we agree on that?

SinSynn · 8 months ago

Intellectawe-
It must suck to be poor, and have to build your own Valkyries lol.

Please, why don't you provide us with a link to photos of all the stuff you've built for your 40k armies? If you have talent, we'd like to see.

SinSynn · 8 months ago

You know what, I take that back. I am so sorry. My ignorant rants sometimes come off as being much more harsh than they are meant to be.

Good luck with your project!

Farsight · 8 months ago

the fact that it has three TL lascannons is not so surprising: with its armor values, some dedicated anti-light vehicle fire should bring it down. Lets face it, the valkyrie is no Land Raider, it just doesn't have the staying power.

I'm thinking some devastators, maybe even plasma guns/cannons will be seeing a lot of downed valkyries. (I say plasma because the valkyrie is going to be zooming all over the board and you'll want something w/ reach)

Forhekset · 8 months ago

Yeah but in that vain why not stick a giant quad gatling mega plasma cannon on a wooden box on wheels and send it out. It's balanced cause it's so weak, right?

Just doesn't add up in the long run. But I'm mostly from a fluff background rather than gaming.

Though I can't blame them for trying to get more uses out of what is essentially a brand new type of model, being a "flyer" and all. It's a pity they couldn't just settle for some rocket pods and autocannons or something abit more down to earth.

Muskie · 8 months ago

I also thought that was insane, but apparently the Heavy 20 gun exists... It is all about selling models....

Sanction · 8 months ago

I saw that as well. I guess the guard will do well with anti tank :).

There are many nice choices here.

Bucho · 8 months ago

okay, hull mounted multimeltas in the hellhounds? that just made them WAY more flexible and well worth their points.

And the vendetta is just the valk with all las cannons. Which is nice, but I don't see why they would have it as a separate entry. But nine las cannon shots sounds a bit good.

Will we see some serious need for this firepower when we see the next two/three codex releases of Necron, Space wolf and Dark Eldar?

With this firepower at their disposal, I can see a need to rethink my marine army from the ground up.

Mike X · 8 months ago

"And the vendetta is just the valk with all las cannons. Which is nice, but I don't see why they would have it as a separate entry. But nine las cannon shots sounds a bit good."

In 4th edition Space Marines, the Predator tank was listed as two separate entries for its Annihilator and Destructor variants.

Eyespy · 8 months ago

The vendetta also has 12/12/10 armour, as opposed to the 12/10/10 on the Valkerie.

Its the Valkerie version of the Razorback.

TSINI · 8 months ago

according to the french summary, both have 12 12 10 armour. :S

valks just getting better and betterwith each bit of news

Sathos · 8 months ago

I only just woke up so bear with me....
but am I missing something? he said nine lascannon shots....
nine...
eh???

three twin linked lascannons gives you three shots with rerolls unless I really have missed something.

**edit: Aaaah hang on, he didnt say it but he means squadron...i get him now :) **

Valthonis · 8 months ago

Damned squadron rules.. what use are 3 russes when they all have to fire all weapons at the same unit? or 3 vendettas, thats 9 twinlinked lascannons firing at the same target, a little overkill to get rid of a tank methinks...

Also, I dont think the vendetta has transport capacity, thus the seperate entry (I'm thinking typo).

Cheers

Eyespy · 8 months ago

Those are downsides to squadrons to be sure, but there are upsides:

* Anything you fire 3 Russ' at is frigging dead.
* Enemy needs to destroy 3 A14 Tanks to get a kill point.
* Enemy needs to destroy 2 tanks to get 50% victory points.
* Squadrons do not block line of site to vehicles in the squad
* If you use the front vehicle to screen the rear two, you can allocate any hits to the rear pair and have 4+ cover saves on those hits. 3+ with cammo netting.

I think it balances in our favour honestly, but nobody is forcing you to have more than 3 heavies.

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

Kill points are a boost but i guess its important to remember these squads will be easier a kill. An immobilized results (hence they can now die on glancing hits) could cripple the unit. But i was under the impression if the squad doesn't block its own line of sight then it shouldn't gain cover saves.

Ej · 8 months ago

You cannot use the front vehicle to screen the rear two. The do not block line of sight works both ways, unfortunately. Bit further on in the rules in the same section.

Eyespy · 8 months ago

I stand corrected.

Sathos · 8 months ago

If the squadron has to fire at the same target a squadron of vendettas seems a waste of points, 9 lascannons with rerolls?
i'm not gunna go into maths as I just woke up but even against a land raider (and assuming the guard bs3) that seems like overkill... i'd take them as a pair max.

Lorieth · 8 months ago

That depends what you're shooting at, surely? A monlith or Land Raider can soak up a lot of damage. 9 twin-linked lascannons give you about 7 hits, but against AV14 that's only about 1 glancing and 1 penetrating hit - not to mention if they're in cover...

It's not just AV14 either, Fortuned Wave Serpents can take a lot of lascannon shots to down, and what about a squadron of enemy Leman Russ tanks?

The sheer volume of fire means it might be handy against nasty infantry as well - wraithguard, anyone with FnP, any <T5 with multiple wounds... Not saying that's the primary purpose of course, but the one-shot nature of AT weapons is less problematic when you can bring 9 to the party.

Crackinjahcs · 8 months ago

The 9 lascannon shots would be great for Guard vs. Guard and taking out the other guy's vehicle squadrons... As long as you got the first turn.

DM294 · 8 months ago

Even if it isn't a transpo, i'm thinking 2 3 squadrons of valk/vendetta would be awesome to field. Combined arms guard force of Infantry/Armor/Air support/Arty FTW
So, even staying within normal FOC, it's possible to field at least 9 heavy armour/Artillery. That establishes the Imperial Guard as what they always were lore-wise, Lotsa infantry and a lotta big guns!

Zack · 8 months ago

I'm going to cry tears of xenos blood. This is straight up amazing. I've already got my army planned out a little bit...

I want 2 hellhounds, 2 lemans, 2 demolisher, and 2 artillery pieces to satisfy my obsession with symmetry.

Thanks for the sweet info guys!

Valthonis · 8 months ago

that would be 1140 points thank you :) and that is without any upgrades.

So as a wise man on a good forum once told me, even if we CAN field 1-3 per FOC choice, it does not mean we have the points to do so. 9 lemans bare bones = 1350 pts.

So unless you play lists above 1500 pts you will have a hard time getting that many in ;)

Cheers

SinSynn · 8 months ago

who the hell plays games at LESS than 1500 pts?
1750 is pretty standard around my way, and 1850 seems to be standard for tourneys. 1500 is a 'practice game', for when you wanna experiment with a unit or 2.
So 9 Leman Russ Tanks? Not a problem. Start thinking about sponson choices, my friends!
Games at less than 1500? Those are for poor people and children. Now let's talk about Apocolypse! 1500 points doesn't even get you a seat on the sidelines......

xNickBaranx · 8 months ago

My group plays on Monday nights after work - 1000 and 1250 games are common. So the answer to your question is - people who regularly play on week nights.

Sathos · 8 months ago

Me and my gaming group are just getting back into 40k after a bit of a hiatus and we are doing it with 800pt games... small, fast and still subjject to the full rules spread so we get used to the game in general again and especially the new rules.

None of us are younger than 22
We all have steady jobs and the ability to wield minimum 4000pts of our chosen main army...

Can you possibly see why I resent your rather insulting comment SinSynn? yes we will move onto larger games but just because thats all that you play doesnt mean you need to insult people who play less... what about those who still play "combat patrol" in their lunchbreaks (400pts) ??

SinSynn · 8 months ago

I'll have to re-phrase my question-
HOW the hell can anyone play a game at less than 1500 pts?
At less than 1500, things get skewed. In a small game, a two landraider list is nearly impossible to deal with. It unbalances the game because your opponent probably brought a larger amount of less powerful choices to get some damn models on the table, as low point games limit severely your options. But hey, that's why I bring THREE at 1500 (yes you can do it easily), and generally stomp people. It's worth getting cursed at when you pull 'em outta the foam just to see the look on their faces....hehe.
I play Tau now, and I like low points games because Tau rule at that level. A lot of armies won't be bring their ultra-elites, due to the limited resources, so that's good for me.
Unfortunately, no one wants to play at less than 1500 for that very reason. Your limiting the options, and hence the fun. Eldar with no Seer Council...boring. And why get used to playing games at that level. Most Tournaments are at the 1850 pt. level, so THAT'S where you should set your sites. Learn to use an 1850 pt. list by PLAYING it. Different units have synergies together, and by playing at 800 or 1000 pts. your missing out.
As far as combat patrol is concerned, that's actually a DIFFERENT RULESET. The game itself is designed to be played at a certain point level, and the RULES ARE CHANGED TO ACCOMODATE THAT. Whole different story, my friend. Your not playing 40k then. Your playing Combat Patrol. I'm not playing 40k at less than 1500 pts., however. Just as Combat Patrol and Apocolypse are designed to play at certain point levels, so is 40k. Even in the BRB and Codexes the 'sample armies' are usually 1500 pts., and White Dwarf battle report armies NEVER appear to be less than 1500, and usually are much bigger-''cuz it's MORE FUN playing with mucho points and big armies, and they know it.
So do you guys, you just wanna be knuckleheads, I guess.

SinSynn · 8 months ago

Oh wait, I get it, I am too serious sometimes (most of the time!).

Playing for fun is, well, playing for fun, and you know what, I miss those early days of gaming, when not everyone had 1500, or 1850 pts.

Play on, and enjoy the game, YOU WANT TO PLAY!

Cheers (and I'm the knucklehead!)

SinSynn

Admiral Halsey · 8 months ago

Congratulations. You are now the offical troll of Bell of Lost Souls, and the ultimate example of why some people are directly opposed to letting everyone have free speech.

Sathos · 8 months ago

well SinSynn thankyou very much for this part tacked on lol I was gearing myself up for a very overbearing and probably not very friendly response.

You nailed it on the head, we dont care for tourneys and we play for fun ^^

We have the points to lay down the huge games but with the time we have to devote to it we prefer say two little game to one big one and we are also waiting for "mr high roller" a.k.a mr 6s (lol) to get his new house and HUGE gaming table ^^

Catzilla · 8 months ago

So glad I kept all these meltas from my old demolisher kits. Now I can build some more hulls from spare parts to have a wide variant of LR hulls. :)

SinSynn · 8 months ago

Wow, you know, I am such a moron, that sounded just asinine.

Sorry everyone.

TSINI · 8 months ago

lol i think this is the 5th apology i've read from you today, have you had a near death experience?

Sathos · 8 months ago

Dude, at least you are man enough to make the apology, many arent :)

CmdrBone · 8 months ago

Argh, the Vendettas sound a bit broken - and that's me as a future Guard Drop Troop player saying that... Well, at least I don't have to deal with those slow heavy weapon teams anymore...

Just two quick questions:
-Any chance the Valk will be a "normal" dedicated transport, as well (much like the Chimera?)
-How do you transport units in a vehicle squadron? Can every Valk pack a different unit? Can I spread out a bigger unit over all three Valks? Wtf?!?

Cheers

Gyar · 8 months ago

As a Guard Drop Troop Player of several years, Vendettas to me just sound retarded, with most of the basic tanks able to have multi meltas, does the guard really need 3 twin linked las skimmers running around? And I am really interested in seeing the fluff over them..

Tank squadrons = awesome. Yes, they all have to fire at the same target, but what is more guardlike than pounding the ever living crap out of a target while the ranks run up to stab it with its bayonets!

Hyperion · 8 months ago

I may have got this wrong but as I read it the squadrons in apocalypse are independant vehicles which have to deploy together, and get a bonus for staying together. I assume they can target different units and presumably aren't actually obligated to keep coherency. I imagine the same applies here... As for transport, how could a valk not be a transport? The extra armour option is a clue here as it is useless for squads in formation. I see this as more of the standard line for IG: a platoon consisting of 3 or more separate units which can act independantly fills one troops slot after all. Incidentally the Vulture can mount one set of twin-linked lascannon (amongst other options) plus a set of a choice of missiles and one heavy bolter. It seems likely the vendetta will be having just the one lascannon option too...

It's odd that they went with bolters as upgrades and hellstikes as standard for the valks though. Not that I'm complaining: Valk with lascannon, rocket pods and bolters is 155 pts compared to FW loadout at 200 pts and thats with a point more armour to front and sides :)

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

If vehicles in squads can act independently you can have my entire cookie jar.

Though to be honest Gyar, with all the points you spent on the squad i can't imagine seeing much of an army.

Hyperion · 8 months ago

I prefer biscuits but the thought is appreciated. Anyway, I dunno, although I note that both here and in Apoc they refer to tank squadrons not squads e.g. the tank company consists of squadrons whereas the sentinel troop refers to squads. Anyway, send those cookies to a special cause, I'm supposed to be dieting...

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

Then you'll be relieved to know the cookie jar is in fact empty due to previous handouts. Maybe you can sell the jar as profit?

Hyperion · 8 months ago

I'd say wait and see, but where's the fun in that? I'm with Folkert on this one... After all, the guard have form in this department what with troop choices being entire platoons. If this isn't the case, is anyone really going to tie up that many points to shoot at one target per turn?

TSINI · 8 months ago

while this is true in apoc they refer to tank squadrons as just being set up together, you have to remember that apoc is a completely different game for unit selection. by making tanks into squadrons it allows them to be chosen on apoc data sheets (giving you access to special rules)

whereas in normal 40k games, vehicle squadrons work as a squadron for the game.

unless the new Guard codex has a special note or rule detailing the vehicles may be bought as a squadron but act indipendantly they will work as a squadron for the game

Folkert · 8 months ago

I think the "squadron" rules will be the same as with the Tau Sniper Drone teams... you can have 3 per Slot but they count as seperate units when fielded..

biztheclown · 8 months ago

I doubt this very highly.

Folkert · 8 months ago

would be awesome though :P:D one can always dream yea?:P:D

TSINI · 8 months ago

it's a recurring dream, and its beautiful!

thefishcometh · 8 months ago

I'm not happy to see heavy flamer sponsons go. They may not have been the most useful thing in the world (especially with 5e), but they were certainly flavorful. I love the smell of promethium in the morning. Smells like... victory. And dead xenos.

Engelus · 8 months ago

ah, heavy flamers they turn firewarriors into on-fire warriors, dire avengers into pyre avengers, and Imperial guard into imperial chard.

hludwig · 8 months ago

Hey guys, this post seems to be writen from the point of veiw that we all play forge world rules every game. If someone out there can tell me what those units like the Banewolf are I would be in your debt.

Charlie Schreyer · 8 months ago

They are new hellhound variants, Im not sure which is which exactly. But of the Devildog and Banewolf, one has a poison template attack and the other has a melta cannon

Ryan · 8 months ago

Well some of the artillery stuff is FW, but most of the new stuff has had their rules posted on here. Just use the search function up on top of the page or maybe linked on the bottom of the article.

TSINI · 8 months ago

check out the earlier posts on BOLS, (click on the "Imperial Guard" button in the list to the right)

theres a few detailing anything revealed rumoured vehicle types, not to mention a full summary sheet from the back of the codex (albeit in french) that shows all the stat lines of the characters, tanks and weaponry

The Naked Kasrkin · 8 months ago

Hmmm so we get troops cheaper and more expensive tanks... seems like nothing in terms of vehicle numbers balanced with troop numbers will be changing. We'll end up paying the balance left over from our troops on tanks and sponsons.

Oh and the extra points we pay for lumbering behemoth (the extra 10 or so points per tank) may be of little use if we can't afford sponsons to shoot with.

Last point is that valkyries are very well priced, and am I right in thinking that you can outflank with them?!

Polonius · 8 months ago

I share the concern expressed here. The points for tanks, if accurate, are much higher than I expected from earlier rumors/information leaks. Every vehicle is the same points or more than in the current codex, so one wonders, how much cheaper will the troops have to be in order to be able to have - what was said - a "treadhead's dream with lots more tanks, even in small games?" Something like that. And I believe a later post in this thread mentions something about 16 points per storm trooper? We're still going the wrong way, points wise, to see that wall of ranked infantry out in front of rows of battle cannons.

On a personal note, I'm especially disappointed to see Sentinels have not dropped in cost. In practice, armor 10 (even with closed crew compartment), makes them terribly vulnerable to basic weapons fire - even bolt pistols are a threat. And a single squad of Tau fire warriors can eradicate a squadron of 3 Sentinels in one round of firing (have done so many times). Its a shame, because I think the models are cool and I am always looking for creative ways to include them. But what you get amounts to basically a really tall guardsman toting a single, over-priced heavy weapon, and he's much too tall to hide or effectively take cover, and so is quickly singled out and shot down. I was hoping they'd be way cheaper, in order to field them more often without having to sacrifice taking a Leman Russ for about the same cost as those 3 doomed Sentinels. Looks like they'll stay (sadly) relegated to filler points in Apocalypse or really massive 40K games.

Yorky · 8 months ago

i'm just back from the UK GT and have held the offending codex myself :)

I can confirm much of what has been said as true (and you don't want to be on the end of a Deathstrike!)

Only difference is that the Vendetta is a heavy choice, so............

Thats right you can field 18 fliers in on FOC if you want too!

Forhekset · 8 months ago

I vote ForgeWorld take over any and all creation of retarded new equipment invention.

Oh wait, FW wouldn't make up retarded new ideas or keep changing everything.

Space Machines · 8 months ago

Umm... FW a're the prime suspects! I call forth that weird-ass backwards Minotaur thingamajig, or the legion of rubbish WW1-esque tanks they keep churning out (the Macharius, IIRC).

TSINI · 8 months ago

OH NO HE DI'NT!

you sir are spouting pure blasphemous bile!! lol

i can't get enough of the forgeworld gear. everything they do is just diamond encrusted wireless platinum backscratchers!!

the thing with forgeworld is they are a bunch of total treadheads. they spend their time researching into historical vehicles, and modern day vehicles. looking at how real armies fight wars, then transfer that into the technologically stunted future universe of 40k.

i think they add a touch of realism which i'm sure many of us like to see in a sci-fi world of physics and science.

WW1/2 tanks inspire a certain gritty war feel to this game, its the appeal of the death korps.

GangstaWangsta · 8 months ago

SNAP!

TSINI · 8 months ago

;)

Forhekset · 8 months ago

"everything they do is just diamond encrusted wireless platinum backscratchers"

Quoted for truth.

FW keep me interested - if it wasn't for them I probably would of given up by now. Their campaign books are EXACTLY what I love to see, I just wish they actually made gaming campaigns out of them.

TSINI · 8 months ago

i love you guys

yeah the forgeworld guys keep 40k interesting for me too

once i signed up for the forgeworld newsletter (email) i realised there was no need to ever buy white dwarf, or even keep up to date with what GW were doing

even when i went to Gamesdays, i found theForgeworld seminars and forgeworld store were my main concern lol

its mad but its the fluff that keeps me interested. not the gaming rules or anything else

wienas · 8 months ago

I've not heard what Camo Nets will offer vehicles in this version. Does anyone know?

It seems like a pricey upgrade, I imagine it does something good.

John · 8 months ago

+1 cover save

John · 8 months ago

3 twin-linked lascannons yes but unless theres a special rule that hasnt been reported you have to stay still to fire (not a big deal if you get 1st turn and the scout move).

Also its a shame that Valks don't seem to be dedicated transports so no scout moves with guys inside.

Nakat · 8 months ago

If the skimmer is fast you move up to six inches and still fire all weapons.

Also, you can start troops deployed in non-dedicated transports, just not OTHER troops dedicated transports. Otherwise, how would you begin the game deployed in a land raider? (assuming you aren't terminators, of course)

TyraelVladinhurst · 8 months ago

anyone else notice the lack of a storm bolter upgrade on those tanks?

Gazuk · 8 months ago

bear in mind russes can move and fire EVERYTHING if they only move 6" - so why would you possibly want the stormbolter?

Ej · 8 months ago

No, they can fire the normal amount of weapons they would normally be able to, in addition to the turret weapon. At least, that's what stores are being told to say. Check two posts ago

SM · 8 months ago

but the ordinance rules say you can only fire the ordinance weapon, and you can't move either.

TyraelVladinhurst · 8 months ago

the same reason someone would want a heavy stubber

Sean McQuitty · 8 months ago

what exactly is a heavy stubborn?

TheGreatBeyond · 8 months ago

LOL! Yes bit of a typo there, that should be "heavy stubber".

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

I believe its meant to say heavy stubber.

Good and bad things, some i like some i don't. The punisher is expensive in my opinion, demolisher took a fair hit as well. I can't imagine spending the 30 or so points for sponsors now. However the vanquisher is nice, as are the griffon and hyrda (very nice in my opinion).

I'm disappointed to see the sentinels still at the same price. I could've done without move through cover and would've liked getting them for a few points less. At least the weapons are cheaper though. Finally they realise the autocannon was not worth the points it was in the current codex. 2 shots with BS 3 aren't as useful as i'd like them to be. So i see some ups and downs. Still wallowing over the 16 point storm troopers as well as the lack of option for storm trooper squads as troops but i will definitely enjoy using those griffons and hydras.

TheJim · 8 months ago

Actually, the basic Sentinel is now 35 points with a Multilaser or 40 points with an Autocannon - a pretty good discount, really.

Also, keep in mind that the Stormtroopers now have AP3 guns and a series of special deployment options.

Gazuk · 8 months ago

squadrons of exterminators here i come.
plus a bucket load of guardsmen too.

i thought the vendetta was a gunship, not a transport

TSINI · 8 months ago

i don't really understand the vendetta, the vulture is already the gunship, and from what ive seen so far, the vendetta is already much better than the vulture.

i mean, i understand it from sales points of view, gives you a gunship out of the valkyrie box.

but as you said, doesnt make much sense if it also has transport space (or as much transport space) although, what would fill up the space for 12 people, it would have to be a HELLUVA lot of ammo

Sathos · 8 months ago

TSINI....i guess there is something you and I may have overlooked here...
phasing out of the Vulture...

Perhaps like many things before and many more to come in the future GW has decided to effectively drop it.
The main reason for the vendetta is ofc to bump Valkyrie sales (though i would have to go back to that post displaying the sprues and hunt for lascannons...otherwise its an upgrade coming later...)

But the new "guess" I am hazarding is that as nice as the vulture is/was GW want such an item to be more accessible hence its mention in the codex (and release/conversion of a plastics release model)

TSINI · 8 months ago

lol i guess so, to be honest one of the perks of forgeworld was always the

"it isnt very good in the game but my god doesnt it make the army look awesome" effect (like the sentinal powerlifters/arvus lighters/aquila lander/ trojan/ atlas lol need i go on?

so maybe us vulture owners will now be part of that elite group who nod to each other knowingly, we know its not as good as the vendetta, but we prefer looks to gaming power anyday.

hopefully forgeworld will update the rules for a lot of their vehicles after the codex release, at least to upgrade the vulture armour values / points etc not to mention the other vehicles that will need overhauling to bring in line with the new format.

Majestyk · 8 months ago

and that's why I have 3 vultures.

I guess I could always convert them to have the lascannons and then just not put troops in them, and CALL them Vendettas....seems like wasted effort though.

TSINI · 8 months ago

yeah my initial response was, lets see if the vendetta has troop capacity first, if not, i'll have a go at making my vultures into them. but if they do have troop capacity, then screw it, i'll just use them in friendly games as either the forgeworld rules (until they revisit them) or as a home-ruled version.

The Naked Kasrkin · 8 months ago

Did you say 16 point storm troopers?!!!! WTF? THEYD BETTER HAVE POWER ARMOR!!!

Oh and I know about the ap 3 hell guns... bah give me st 4 hell guns no ap at 11 points a troop at most and Ill be good. No way in hell anyone wants to spend 160 points on a stormtroop squad... ugh if that's true GW has officialy killed mechanized grenadier armies which are coincedentally the only guard armies played in my area

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

Well its just a rumor but it does have my hopes largely pinned down.

TSINI · 8 months ago

lol really? mechanised grenadier armies? why don't they just play space marines?
its hardly in the spirit of imperial guard
how boring...

maybe they'll have to learn to play guard tactics rather than marine tactics

Grim_Clown · 8 months ago

Rubbish.

One aspect of the Imperial Guard is that you can supposedly create any type of army you want. To say its 'hardly' in the spirit of guard is merely a narrow minded view.

Vix · 8 months ago

Well, thank you for that and I have to say I agree. After all, not all Imperial guard regiments are raised from the same mold right?

Means they don't play the same, I sure know mine don't and that's half the charm. Elysium drop troops, Tanith, Vostroyans, Savlar, Catachan, etc. Consequently that's also why I'm really looking forward to the pretty new Valkyries.

Something wrong with the way a lot of people seem to think Guard 'should' be played? Absolutely not, then again we all find something boring mine seems to be what a lot of people call the Cadian 8th. ~simpers and pouts about useless vostroyans and wool knit 'armor'~

TSINI · 8 months ago

don't get me wrong, it's definately not boring to field a grenadier army, or a mechanised army, or even a grenadier mechanised army.

but if everyone is doing it in your area... why not grow a pair and play a different tune?

to quote the original conversation
"ugh if that's true GW has officialy killed mechanized grenadier armies which are coincedentally the only guard armies played in my area"

My point was to raise the question "why is this the only guard army in your area?"

TheGreatBeyond · 8 months ago

And why do you think "GW has officialy killed mechanized grenadier armies"? Maybe because everybody was playing them and they are not what the Imperial Guard are supposed to be about? This 'dex looks to firmly place massed basic infantry alongside armour as the basis of the Imperial Guard.

Sla-Ha-Nesh · 8 months ago

Grenadier armies are alive and well if Vets have carapace and can take Chimeras.

TheGreatBeyond · 8 months ago

They may be alive, but they're not "well"... at least not as well as some people might like. No Infiltrate, no Hellguns, no targeters, and defensive grenades in place of frag and krak.

Admiral Halsey · 8 months ago

They couldn't inflitrate anyway?
At least, if I recall the book correctly, the troops choice stormies lost inflitrate and deepstrike.

Honsou · 8 months ago

For 16pts, Storm Troopers get Hellguns (range 18", strength 3, AP 3, assault 1), ballistic skill 4, 4+ carapace armour save and can choose some sort of veteran ability (likely along the lines of infiltrate, deep strike, etc.) It's potentially a very nasty unit, in the right situations, that will work differently than just being a 'heavier' version of a Guardsman.

Mechanised Grenader armies were always going to be on the chopping block, as were any other 'niche' army build. On the upside, Mechanised armies overall will be easier to field, and Infiltrator armies may still be possible. At least you still have some special rules (I say as a Chaos player).

BrotherAtrox · 8 months ago

The Vanquisher only being 5 points extra is concerning. Are they nerfing the AT shells?

Ej · 8 months ago

As far as I know, the opposite. This version of the Vanquisher fires ONLY AT shells. It's range is also reduced from the Forgeworld rules and it can't buy Veteran Abilities. But that just makes sense.

TyraelVladinhurst · 8 months ago

it's GW, so most definatly (just like they semi nerfed the executioner)

Ej · 8 months ago

Are you KIDDING me? The Executioner got BETTER. Heavy 3 Blast? Sure it's half the range, but MAN do 3 plasma cannon shots a turn make up for it. Points are kinda iffy though, I'll give you that

TSINI · 8 months ago

yeah im so stoked i went for an executioner, the mainstreaming of the tank into the codex and its gun inexplicably upgraded to 3 blasts!

along with the plasma sporting sentinals this codex is going to breath new life into my lucky 88th!

TSINI · 8 months ago

yeah it looks like theyve issued orders to vanquisher crews to only fire the barrel damaging AT shells and never ever fire the normal battle tank ammunition

GW: "hey forgeworld, how do you like these rules, look we've even put in some of your tanks"
FW: "um, did you read any of our fluff on the vanquisher cannon?"
GW: "well i got the coffee boy to scan over it, why? anything wrong?"
FW: "well its just the AT shells actually damage the barrel a bit, hence why they only use them for shooting tanks"
GW: "oh, oh, well, um, lets just ignore that bit yeah?"
FW: "isnt that what you said about the Vulture gunship, when you introduced the Vendetta"
GW: "i think i left the iron on..."

daveisdvd · 8 months ago

lol... this is the irony of copying forge world. They seem to do it better.

Dave

Sathos · 8 months ago

Weeeeellllll.... they are the same company after all...it was bound to happen >.<

You see it in most large companies... a discrepancy between sales dept and the marketing dept...
a discrepancy in one store's policy when they are part of a larger chain... (McDonalds is classic for that one lol)

And now Citadel/GW... a difference in opinion between the Mighty resin fluffmachine and the OMGselllPLASTIX!!! departments...

TSINI · 8 months ago

Mighty resin fluffmachine and the OMGselllPLASTIX!!! departments

that is perfect! it almost makes GW sound like the "little timmy" gamers :D love it

Honsou · 8 months ago

To be honest, I like the idea of the Vanquisher firing only anti-tank shells. It just seems to make more sense - special gun with special ammunition. Otherwise you could just as easily have regular Leman Russ tanks with a few anti-tank shells in the magazine, just in case.

Besides, what has the Design Studio done lately that leads you to believe they give a rat's arse about fluff?

TSINI · 8 months ago

thing is the vanquisher cannon is kind of redundant without the ability to lay down explosive shells. as it will still be firing a huge shell at infantry, but only able to wound 1... which doesnt really sit right with me, although that 1poor guy wouldn't be recogniseable afterwards, even by dental records)

the only reason vanquishers were chosen as HQ vehicles in armoured formations was because of their versatility. if they were specifically anti tank, they'd be kept back in the ranks

lol although, if forgeworld got their way, all tanks would be able to take the ocasional special round, like illum shells and siege shells. not to mention the myriad of others covered in Imperial Armour 1, which would be cool, just complex.
(in fact im sure there were some basic rules for including special shells somewhere along the lines)

i agree with the ignoring of fluff though, its just such a shame that some people put in so much effort to make the game enjoyable through sheer thought and realism, for it to be brushed aside by people in the same job, who could have just taken a few more mins to think of a compromise lol. but those 5:00pm friday deadlines come hard and fast i guess.

Ej · 8 months ago

Or maybe Forgeworld wants to keep their rules relevant. So they can sell books.

Iunno. Maybe that's just sense talking.

Azam · 8 months ago

HI!
I'm liking this a LOT :)
I was just wondering about Hydra, same rules as in Apocalypse with reduced points or what? Any info on that?

Jason · 8 months ago

I've got the 9 Hellhounds ready to go. Deployement of that many vehicles can be tough

SinSynn · 8 months ago

To all you rotten, cheesy Ork players out there reading this-
that wetness you feel in the corner of your eyes are tears. The reason they're there is because you realize that your days of sunshine and flowers are over in about a month and a half.
That somewhat uncomfortable feeling in the pit of your stomach is the knowledge that all that time and money you spent on purchasing and painting 100 plus little green S.O.B.'s will be wasted as you pick large blast template sized squads off the table one after another. Well...technically, they won't be totally wasted-guns need targets, after all ;)
Yup- the days of Orks being king cheese are coming to an end! Oh happy day!
I'll bet every whining post here was put up by an Ork player. What goes around comes around and it looks like the forever underdog Imperial Guard are about to have their time in the spotlight.
Looking foward to it.

Myu · 8 months ago

:P Personally I'd say every whining post was made by the people who complain whenever a new army is released. Seriously, when Orks were re-released some people said everyone would only play them and they were too powerful and etc, etc. And they were wrong. Rinse and repeat for Marines and now Imperial Guard. I'm glad this thread hasn't devolved into the "they are too powerful/ no they aren't and here's why" pattern. I don't play Guard myself, but I'd be interested to see how the new codex plays.

Fehdman · 8 months ago

Personally, I would like to see how this codex fares against those that haven't been updated since the late 90's (Necrons, Dark Eldar). I understand Chaos, SM, IG, and Orks are the major races played, but maybe if some of the others that have sat by the wayside for so long got a re-release of this level there might be some renewed interest.

But you're right, it'll be interesting to see how the new codex plays. What I'm NOT looking forward to is in the initial month of release all the bloody proxies that people will use for these things.
.

Don · 8 months ago

I love you, man!

chrixter · 8 months ago

So the flavour of cheese matters? Weird...

soylent robot · 8 months ago

*shrugs* i aint bothered :3
Ill actually have a challenging army to play against with my orkz
you misunderstand us. we dont "cry" when a powerful new army comes out. we get excited at the prospect of fighting it

Grotzooka · 8 months ago

How mature...
"Nah nah na nah nah! Yoo suk, and now I killz you!"

SinSynn · 8 months ago

Once again, I am sorry for all my troll-like posts. Wow, I just shouldn't post while I am drinking.

Shadoq · 8 months ago

Oh Yes!
OH HELL YES!

I'm such an armor/vehicle whore.

Damn... I may actually use my Bassies in game now.

Need MOAR IG vehicles.

duder · 8 months ago

"I shudder to consider the possibilities of 9 Hellhound/Devildog combos.... The Ork horde may have finally found its match."

Uh, 'scuse me, but Sisters of Battle have been tabling Ork hordes with 9 Immolators for a long time now thank you very much :)

BrotherAtrox · 8 months ago

I'm not sure why people think a Mechanized Grenadier army is somehow "uncharacteristic".

1. It's GWs stuff, so they technically have free reign to change up the nature of the armies. They've done this in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

2. How is it like playing Space Marines? They have boltguns, ATSKNF, higher leadership, toughness, strength, 3+ armor, higher initiative, etc. I'd describe it as playing elite guarsdmen in valks/chimeras.

3. The Imperial Guard is a massive, massive organization. Considering that they perform the vast majority of military operations in the Imperium, their real quality should probably variety and flexibility. All the different worlds, cultures, and forges out there are going to produce all kinds of different units with different methods of warfare.

TSINI · 8 months ago

to quote 'The Naked Kasrkin' who started that conversation "GW has officialy killed mechanized grenadier armies which are coincedentally the only guard armies played in my area"

which to me implies that those players have all jumped on the lesser common forces of the imperium, because they can only see the guardsmen as a low armour save which needs upgrading, a low BS skill that needs upgrading.

so rather than buy an army that already has these upgraded characteristics, theyve tried to boost the guard to as close to marines as they can get.

i'm not saying people can't do what they want, the fluff is the spice of the game, im saying that it sounds like the guard players in The Naked Kasrkin's area don't have the balls to play a normal guard army, probably because they can't understand how to play an army with low stats. (i'd also guess they havent converted up the basic troopers to remotely look like they have full carapace etc)

daveisdvd · 8 months ago

I have to agree, the problem I have had for years is that marines are too easy to play and so they outnumber imperial guard armies at least 20 to 1 on the table top. I'm really into the background of 40k and have been annoyed for years that the obvious complexity of guard company possibilities has never been realized let alone available. They should be one of the most customizable forces in the game from completely air born to entire tank companies to elite grenadier forces. They are the backbone of the Imperium and represent the cultures of a million worlds. Any army should be very concerned when facing an imperial guard force based on pure uncertainty but that has never been the case.

Hopefully we will see some change in this with the new codex release.

Dave

Majestyk · 8 months ago

personally, I always thought that the grenadier army was a cool idea, not from a effectiveness standpoint, but from a fluff perspective. I though the scenes in Guns of Tanith with the stormtrooper drop force were really cool. Even if they did all get horribly mangled because of shoddy leadership and bright purple armor.

TheGreatBeyond · 8 months ago

A Mechanized Grenadier army in and of itself is not "uncharacteristic", however, when you get every man and his dog fielding that army from the Guard Codex then something's not right... at least from GW's perspective. In the same way that the preponderance of Nidzilla lists don't properly reflect the inherent horde nature of Tyranids.

BrotherAtrox · 8 months ago

A lot of that has to do with the mentality of the gamers. Some people buy for the fluff, some for the hobby aspect, some because they just want to collect minis, but (and this is where I agree with TSINI) the poster-boy status of the Space Marine has created a certain "flavor" in the typical 40K army we see on the tabletop.

The Marines are the supreme starter army. They're capable of performing just about any role better than any other army (assuming they specialize enough) and they are very resilient - something that is often reassuring to young commanders. Just about everyone has a few Space Marines lying around, so its no surprise when a new codex comes out these players search for a way to recreate the comfort of wearing power armor and having skilled troopers.

However my point remains - these armies are never really MEQ. Stormtroopers in Valkyries are still just Guardsmen (albeit badass ones). Nidzilla armies are still numbers heavy (comparatively), with lots of low armor save units.

oni · 8 months ago

WOW! I can only hope that there was a lot of things 'lost in translation' there, because the Valkyrie is completely absurd.

TheGreatBeyond · 8 months ago

The only thing lost in translation (having read the original Spanish) is that you can swap the hull Heavy Bolter on the Leman Russ variants for a Heavy Flamer for free. That and the "heavy stubborn" typo, LOL!

daveisdvd · 8 months ago

I'm looking forward to being able to field 3 basilisks..... and a bombard :)
Things are looking up, pity i run a traitor guard force!

Dave

TSINI · 8 months ago

oooooh, everytime i hear the word *gulp* bombard, it just makes me tingle all over :P

faultie · 8 months ago

Vendetta? Woh!

lord kroll · 8 months ago

What I am most concerned about is this idea of squadrons of tanks,
We will have to wait for the codex to see what is worded how & what new exceptions to the main rules they have formulated. Hopefully they will go the Apoc way of "deploy & stay near each other but otherwise independant" but at present squadrons of tanks will not work under 5th edition rules as the squadron rules are for small light, fast & maneuverable vehicles only.

Squadrons ignore each other for line of sight, this is fine for war buggies, land speeders, warwalkers etc that are small vehicles & can be considered to “jink” slightly to shoot pass each others base. But you cant “jink” a tank, There is no way that 3 Russes lined up 1 behind the other between terrain should be allowed to fire through each other & before anyone says the turrets can line up past each other slightly, what about the hull / sponson weapons?
That is just stupid. You could park them side by side in a parade line & yet fire your sponsons through each other as well which is ridiculous.

Also as a negative to the squadron, consider this, as a squadron all you have to do is get a character with a powerfist in contact with one of them in an assault & he can kill all 3 of them in one go ( all hits have to be distributed evenly among the unit). Imagine the fun Kharn will have doing that? Gormag will be throwing his Rhinos forward full pelt begging you to shoot them.

Again this is a stupid idea, you can see Kharn fighting against 3 war walkers, darting amongst them & taking them down but no way should he be able to walk up to one & because he can touch it, destroy 2 others hiding behind it, hell one of them would be about 8 inches away at least.

Heres an interesting shooting example

Say you have a squadron of 3 Leman Russ tanks spread out in a firing line with the max 4" between them to cover as much of the battlefield as possible, assume that the models are 3.5 inches wide ( they are about that I think )

Now say I deepstrike a unit of 7 terminators with 5 combimeltas successfully 5 " to the side of 1 of the end tanks.

I get 5 shots hitting on 4s so 3 hits, I need 6 to penetrate (S8 vs arm 13) with 2d6 so on average 3 penetrating hits.
I then need a 3 or better on the damage table to destroy each tank ( 3+1 for AP1 weapon = 4 = immobolised, which in squadrons counts as destroyed)

This means I have a 66% chance of destroying all 3 tanks even though 2 of them......
A/ cant be seen as the closest one clearly blocks LOS
B/ are out of range, 1 at 12.5 inches away & the furthest a staggering 20 inches away.

There could even be squads of infantry, other vehicles ( chimeras etc.) or entire buildings between the tanks & yet this would still be valid & there would be no cover saves as I am sitting on top of actual one I am firing at.

(Must get my second squad of terminators with the combimeltas finished...)

Okay worried rant over, lets wait for the codex & see what it says & just pray that they haven't killed the game by missing so obvious a screw up.

Nakat · 8 months ago

Screw up/Balance...


To-MAY-to/To-MAH-to...

Anon · 8 months ago

Come on.....

Use your imagination a little bit (or read the rulebook as it explains this specific situation quite nicely). GW claims that the troops (or vehicles i guess) in a squadron wouldn't sit idly. They would seek cover, move to open firing lanes, and buzz around appropriately. While you will only be moving and placing them in a static position, if those little plastic things came to life they wouldn't remain stationary while fighting. The rules work only with a little bit of effort on the player's part. You're just being silly.

Ej · 8 months ago

Exactly. The rules are only an approximation of events, rather than exactly what happens. Because really, when a squad of soldiers gets shot at, they don't get to decide who dies.

Although I prefer the line the rules come to life with only a little bit of imagination on the player's part. Personally, I love coming up for reasons why things work the way they do.

Big J · 8 months ago

So.... the tank just leans over and hides behind cover? I get what you're saying, but those concepts are use specifically for troops, that's why they don't have to be "x% covered" to get a covered save, they move. Tanks, however, have to be obscured 50%, because they aren't moving.

Joseph · 8 months ago

What's with all the crying There's no crying in 40k! Sure IG can take all their vehicles as squadrons but think about it.

Pro's:
More units fieldable in a single Force Org
Do not block of sight for each other
Change Shaken to Stunned (so on a 3- they are always able to move)
You can spread damage results around the squad, stacking penetrating hits on one model for instance (possibly good)

Con's:
Do not provide cover for each other (BRB pg 64, right side, 2nd paragraph)
Are destroyed on a 4+ on the damage chart (counts immobilized as wrecked)
Must remain within 4" of each other for coherency
Must target all the same unit
If 1 model moves 7" they all count as moving 7"
You can spread damage results around the squad (possibly bad), since any squad member can die on a 6 as a glance; instead of having 6 damage rolls against 1 model you get 2 against each with a chance to lose the whole squad.

So I for one am not too concerned with the vehicle squadrons and LR Spam which we will get, the LR's were just made more killable...too bad necrons gauss weapons always glance...

Oh and the scouting valkyries filled with Stormtroopers...on a 4+ on the damage chart, STR 4 to each squad member 3's to wound and pinning checks....sounds like they'll be more expensive when you add in carapace armor and a vox caster (speculation on my part not being an IG player only having played against a few times and guessing about the upgrades)

fade_74 · 8 months ago

You can keep the vendetta......My vulture will be sporting armored cockpit and chaff/flare launchers.

lord kroll · 8 months ago

Actually you know what just occured to me...I could / hope I am wrong but if not then this is real funny.

A squadron is a group of models that is considered 1 unit, right?

It takes up 1 slot & models have to ramain in formation, fire at 1 target, share damage,. you have to wipe it all out etc.

Any unit that has "transport" can only carry one other unit.

A unit can only embark on 1 transport, you cannot split a unit up over several.

So 3 Valkaries has a capacity of 36, can only carry 1 unit of 12 men in total.

guard platoons are 1 FOC but each squad is counted as a seperate unit

So, you cannot put 1 platoon of 2 X 10 man squads & a five man command in 3 valkaries as that would be 3 units being transported by 1.

You cannot combine the 3 squads into 1 unit & then transport as the unit is then split up over different vehicles.

Please, someone tell me I have been sniffing too much of the paint I am using & that I am wrong?

RealGenius · 8 months ago

I don't know of any other transport vehicles that are taken as a squadron, so we will have to see what special Guard rules GW cooks up. I am sure that you will be able to take a platoon (or whatever it is called) in a squadron of Valkyries, one squad in each Valk.

I mean, really, it only makes sense. Which, of course, is why it will be completely wrong.

Nakat · 8 months ago

Sniffing too much paint. This is counter-intuitive for one, and for another, I don't think there's any reference in the rules at all that say that. A unit may embark on a transport if they can move within two inches of it.

A vehicle squadron is exactly the same as a single vehicle in all respects except the following: Stunned = shaken, Immobilized = Wrecked, LoS through the others, and Coherency (4") to be maintained.

Ej · 8 months ago

I don't think even the most rabid anti-guard player would try to make that call. As Nakat says, it's entirely counter-intuitive. Each squad goes in a valk, no problem, as they can all set up separately, where separately in this case means "in several transports.

Although, now that I'm thinking about this, what if the platoon is larger than 3 squads and you want to transport them all in Valks... Can they go in different squadrons? Off-hand I'd say yes, because they're not dedicated transports, but rather separate FOC selections, so who cares that the platoon is spread across several other unit selections. I'd think that it would limit the deployment of your Valks, because the platoon has to be placed all at once (can't keep some squads in reserve) but that's about it.

Also, as they're a separate FOC entry and not a dedicated transport, they can't be deployed at the start during DoW.

Anon · 8 months ago

Remember how "Broken" The Marine codex was supposed to be when we heard those rumors. (Most of which where true.)

I patiently withold judgment until I see a release and games are played.

And excitedly wait for the SW codex.... If it's done like this there will be some nasty fun games in the Future against '5th Ed' Codecies methinks.

Digitarii · 8 months ago

The whole thing still smacks too much of "too good to be true"

I'll wait for the codex to see what's really going to happen.

The Naked Kasrkin · 8 months ago

A lot of people are saying that grenadier armies (storm troop armies) are not in the spirit of the guard... well then you dont know the guard! The point of the guard is that it is very diverse you can field a whole bunch of armies. When reading the guard literature you run into references of primarily tank forces (hauberkans from gaunts ghosts series), jungle fighters (catachans), light infantry forces (ie gauns ghosts), Kasrkin regements (cadia anybody?), Heavy weapon engineer armies, Massed infantry armies etc. And with the new valkyries coming out I know a lot of people who were salivating over grenadier air cav armies (squad of regular guard coming out of a skimmer doesnt have any real bite...).

As for playing like marines, that may be half true, except you cant assault with STs the way you can with smurfs and they lack the survivability to sit out in the open. You had to be careful with them and use far different tactics.

In addition, hybrid armies that took regular troops and sts as counter assault units are gonna hurt as well.

Further more for everyone who is filled with self riteous fervor because they play massed infantry guard guess what happens when all the niche armies dissapear
Your army loses variability and everyone quickly learns how to beat it! Niche armies keep apponents guessing on what they expect to see when they hear a guard player is coming to game.

Also, if GW isnt going to get rid of all the Space marine niche armies (ie dark angels, spacewolves, black templar) then why should they get rid of guard niche armies that take far less maintenance (no codexes to write)

TSINI · 8 months ago

again, taking the original conversation out of context.

the original comment was

"No way in hell anyone wants to spend 160 points on a stormtroop squad... ugh if that's true GW has officialy killed mechanized grenadier armies which are coincedentally the only guard armies played in my area"

and the general response was "why is everyone in your area playing that particular army, out of all the thousands of variations of guard they could have come up with, all fluff filled awesomeness. they chose the most similar to space marines."

i have no problem at all with mechanised grenadier armies, theyre overly expensive ruleswise, but they look awesome (which incindentally is the only thing that i ever choose my armies on)

my concern was, if all the guard players are choosing that 1 particular configuration, there's obviously a lack of knowledge in how to field a normal guard army (trying to emulate space marines) or a lack of imagination because they couldn't field a standard mechanised army, or a grenadier drop army, or a light infantry force etc etc

Joe · 8 months ago

You really seemed to have jumped on that quote. Congratulations, Mechanized Grenadier armies are common to one person posting.

And to quote you,
"which to me implies that those players have all jumped on the lesser common forces of the imperium, because they can only see the guardsmen as a low armour save which needs upgrading, a low BS skill that needs upgrading.

so rather than buy an army that already has these upgraded characteristics, theyve tried to boost the guard to as close to marines as they can get.

i'm not saying people can't do what they want, the fluff is the spice of the game, im saying that it sounds like the guard players in The Naked Kasrkin's area don't have the balls to play a normal guard army, probably because they can't understand how to play an army with low stats. (i'd also guess they havent converted up the basic troopers to remotely look like they have full carapace etc)"


Seriously, how in the world did you draw these conclusions from that?

I'm just a little pissy because my grenadiers now cost 4x a guardsman with their only improvements being slightly expanded special rules and a situationally-adequate gun.

And by the way, in my area I'm the only one that uses grenadiers, much less stormtroopers, and I only pack one Chimera.

/frustration

TSINI · 8 months ago

to be a mechanised grenadier army you might need more than 1 transport, unless its an imperialis capitolis, or a leviathon.

and if you're the only one fielding this army in your area. congratulations.
but may i ask why you chose a grenadier army? what models did you use and how much converting did you do to make them look like they have carapace armour etc...

Joe · 8 months ago

Indeed, if someone was playing a mechanized army, they would probably use more than one Chimera.

And who said anything about Carapace?

Now, let's see how well sarcasm travels the tubes:
Alright, you got me. I was actually aiming to make a Space Marine Scout army, but gullible ol' me got conned into buying Kasrkin boxes and I never noticed the difference. They're just so similar, exactly like Fire Warriors and Battle Sisters.

TSINI · 8 months ago

cool

soylent robot · 8 months ago

so is it just leman russ & LR demolishers in squadrons, or can you have the other variants too? i like the way you can mix them tho

hotads92 · 8 months ago

i dont see rough riders =(