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Woundallocation-microing would increase their already high durability by miles..
In about 50 games with IG and vehicle squadrons so far I have lost two of them to immobilized results... a griffon and a hellhound.
especially in apok the leman russ squadron (or 3 of them, 3 deep so 9 in a 3*3 formation) is deadly because they can shoot through each other.
also vehicle squadrons can make very good use of "wound allocation" to allmost negate glancing results. also you can do nice tricks with smoke launchers (park 1 in cover behind a chimaera, let the 2nd fire smoke and all get a cover save -.-).
In about 50 games I have lost tons of vehicles to Immobilized results. Enough that I don't squadron vehicles anymore if I can help it.
Squadrons of Canifexes would be just broken, since they can't die to a 50/50 chance hit like Squadrons of Vehicles can, and if armed differently, will basically take 13 wounds to kill a single carnifex.
Yeah, whatever.
see I can make a useless complaint about the differences in game mechanics between carnifexes and vehicles too!
add statistics and anyone with halv a braincell can work out that vehicles are more resilent against anything which is not a meltagun or a destroyer weapon (as long as the old synapse is enarby. only GW knows if EW stays on synapse).
also carnifexes do not have an ap3 plate which wounds everything infanry on 2+ with practically unlimited range on a normal board. neither do they have a s9 ap2 shot with ridiculous range for all jsut 165pts.
so yeah please GW bring out broods of carnifexes even up to 9 in a unit if you want. make them paly all the wound allocation shenanigans so people are forced to invest into plasmaguns rather than meltaguns, my vehicles will thank you and proceed to shoot the big bugs into the ground with 5 s7 ap2 templates per vehicle :)
I don't even recall the last time 15 bolt shots even got through a toughness 7 Carnifex with a 2+ save and 5 wounds. Sorry, your example doesn't mean squat in teh real life.
But, my IG tanks have and DO die from bolter shots from behind. Heck, any result except for one stops my tanks from shooting from a whole turn! Imagine if you could hit a carnifex, then have a 5/6 chance of it not being able to move the next turn.
Same thing.
"see I can make a useless complaint about the differences in game mechanics between carnifexes and vehicles too!"
Problem is, my 'concerns' are not useless, and are intelligently thought out. You are, on the other hand, just a typical devils advocate who can't see the truth, and feel you must post rubbish to counter a decent argument. Your bolter shot example just shows how little you understand about the game.
"add statistics and anyone with halv a braincell can work out that vehicles are more resilent against anything which is not a meltagun or a destroyer weapon (as long as the old synapse is enarby. only GW knows if EW stays on synapse)"
Wow, you just blow my mind.... If I can even read half of your dribble. FACT: One bolt gun can disable a vehicle for a whole turn, which any tank user knows is death if you can't fire your main guns. FACT: A carnifex will laugh at one bolt gun.
But I am sure you will post more rubbish response nonsense. Knock yourself out.
"also carnifexes do not have an ap3 plate which wounds everything infanry on 2+ with practically unlimited range on a normal board. neither do they have a s9 ap2 shot with ridiculous range for all jsut 165pts."
Which has nothing to do with the discussion. Congrats on trying to turn this into a "how the IG army is balanced against itself versus how a Tyranid Army is balanced against itself" discussion.
"so yeah please GW bring out broods of carnifexes even up to 9 in a unit if you want. make them paly all the wound allocation shenanigans so people are forced to invest into plasmaguns rather than meltaguns, my vehicles will thank you and proceed to shoot the big bugs into the ground with 5 s7 ap2 templates per vehicle :)"
Wow..... Do you even play the same game? You are just inventing tanks now to justify having 9 carnifexes. How old are you?
Simply wow....
Though a question must be asked. Aren't nid armies still going to be kind of gimped with just dreadful basic troop choices? They'll have to table the other army with MCs if they want to do more than tie, unless they have some scoring units that I'm not seeing here.
Tyranids have been basically left with MC's as the only playable.
Their new Codex looks to fix that by offering new species, and improvements to Gargoyles, Raveners, and Hormagaunts.
Thats 5 shots... against large bases that any half intelligent player will spread out... which means if you land 5 direct hits, you get, 5 possible wounds on 4+.
So congrats... That squadron of running Carnifexes that will hit your lines by turn 3 easy just took 3 wounds at most.
Bottom line, a squadron of 3 toughness 7, 2+ save, 5 wound creatures is nigh impossible to kill for most armies UNLESS you pour your entire army's shooting into them for 2 or 3 turns straight.
And we all now what happens when you do that...
They also have to stay within 2 inches of each other so no spreading out along the line.
And no more one one CC fex and one gun fex, need a HS for each type.
I imagine no more elite fexs.
And 9 fexs in 3 units means no pther heavy supports, but a lot of points in 9 models. And If toughness 6 wounds were all that there is an eldar build that could that now.
Milage will very but I imagine monster mash is out for the very simple reason GW needs to sell more small stuff.
Wraithguard? Really?
*sigh*...
Sorry, 15 lootas will never be able to kill a single carnifex, let alone 3 in a squadron.
30 shots on average...
Lets say you get 10 hits, which is being generous...
out of those 10 hits, against toughness 7, only 5 will wound...
and out of 30 shots, you'de be lucky to get one wound through.
Sorry, online people love to just pit a 'weapon versus model' without any real life experience. People use lootas in my store, and they are warrior killers, not carnifex killers...
Same for most of the stuff you listed....
Fact is, most armies that CAN deal with carnifexes have to pour A LOT of fire/attacks just to kill a single one.
carnifexs may not even get T7 anymore. (To be honest i think that option will get dropped)
For the record, you obviously don't watch many Tyranid games. I've delivered, and been on the receiving end of a Carnifex going down to bolter fire. Mathhammer isn't iron-clad, you know, because dice rolls and opponent's movement can't be factored. Probability means nothing once the game starts. I've also seen a 15-strong squad of Lootaz take down 2 Carnifex and 1 Hive Tyrant in 3 turns, consecutively. But they never even nick the armor of a Lemun Russ.
show me a carnifex that can die to a boltgun shot
I'll love having 3 fexes in a squadron, cos they look cool. I suspect I'll only get to use it twice or 3 times cos of the cost. I'll love having 6 point gargoyles, but I am still struggling to paint the 32 I have...
I'm looking forward to this codex almost as much as I have looked forward to every other one. And I look forward to trying to take down 9 fexes in a single game.
Yeah... Then after that game, you won't be looking forward to doing so ever again.
I am looking forward to this codex at least as much as I had the guard codex, and that was a lot. I hope that this codex turns out to be well balanced and fun to play, and see no evidence to believe this will not be the case.
I was merely intimating that If one was locked down, the other two woudn't be free to shoot the next phase, nor wander further on towards another unit in later phases.
an MC vs MC fight...LETS GET IT ON!!!
A stubborn LD 10 combined squad of guards with 3 p'fists will hold and beat (one, dunno about 3). An SM chararcter with eternal warrior will manage it. so long as they're beat up.
Generally, though, I think you're right. 3 apart is too good, 3 squadded is too many...something else is going to happen.
Doing that will allow people to play with their living tank equivalents and free up heavy support slots for new or upgraded units (looking at you biovore).
Also, you have it backwards... One fex can't multi assault... but Three sure as hell can!
Granted, it's broke, just not perfect.
That's the first girl he's spoken to in over a year. He got distracted.
Thats EXACTLY what he was talking about...
-face palm-
I was thinking the same thing.
I actually crapped myself after I read your response!
Pure comedy gold!
Man up and think of it as another challenge.
The only army I fear playing against is other Necrons, the whole game would just be both of us talking about beating 5th Ed. codices with a 3rd Ed. codex and nothing would get done.
:-P
there is no way you can have squadrons of 4 wound models and allow them use of wound allocation...
I'm all for making them a bit better/cooler but it isn't like they suck now.
The problem is when you have 8 Stealers against 32 Boyz....
Same thing with the big Boyz mob. A mob of Steelers should give it pause. I'm not sure one should always win, that is why there are so many dice rolls, to inject randomness, but the Steelers should be as feared as assault termies or Nobz or whatever people worry about, Tyranids should be as bad or worse. Leave the little bugs to provide the bulk, I never liked when Hormaguants were introduced they became a better buy than Genesteelers. I remember people were casting their own when they were only available in metal because they were so good. This has to be late 2nd edition. At least people bring Genesteelers again. In 2nd Edition I famously proved that mathematically a Plaguebearer was better than a Genesteeler and I still think lesser deamons shouldn't be so lesser especially in the CSM codex, I mean they are nightmares risen to life in front of your eyes.
Anyway lots of things don't perform up to fluff like Grey Knights so given the 5th edition trend of making better codices both to sell models and just to increase the kill count Supersuckers style, I expect Steelers and Nids to get a boost. I wouldn't be surprised if the littlest bugs got cheaper. I always thought there should be more ripper swarms. They used to have flying ripper swarms at one point didn't they?
I'm old and my memory fails.
Thats due to a little thing called game-balancing. If models stats were more in favour of fluff, with appropriate points costs, most likely everyone would be playing some form of Marine army 'cos buying all the models for anything else would require a second mortgage, and three times the table size just to be able to maneouvre.
I can't think of anyone at our GW that runs Lash, and I'm one of the few SW players at the club, and I have had better luck with other powers, or not even using a Rune Priest at all!
But I was actually getting at the whole fluff vs rules thing, where if Marines were anything like their fluff they'd have their stats doubled, and it'd need a 3k points game just to field one squad of em,
I think the US WD ran an article along those lines and called 'em "Movie Marines" or something like. Never appeared in the UK WD to my knowledge though.
As for those two powers in specific? JotWW is too new to REALLY gauge if it's broken. Spam 4 Rune Priests in an army, mebbe it is. But then you could say the same about Assault Cannons (How many can marines have now? 12 twin-linked + 14 normal?). Have played some games with Njall in my list. Granted last game he pulled a draw from a loss. But not once did I use JotWW - other powers were better in the situations. Played him vs Necrons as well. Took me 3 turns to snipe the Lord with that power. Even if I had used it against other units, Njall wouldn't have "made his points back" in any case.
As for Lash, if it's THAT broken, why does no-one at my store run Lash-lists? Some of the top tourney players from the country are club members at the store, and they don't even run CSM!
I personally don't run tourney lists. Majority of the time, I'll be putting together a list 5 mins before a battle, just throwing in what I feel like playing at the time (Speeders? Nahh...played em last week...).
If you really feel that they are broken because you constantly get your ass kicked by lists with those abilities, then learn a lesson and start putting anti-psyk in your army. But as your name suggests you don't actually PLAY, you probably just sit and winge along with all the nay-sayers just so you feel like you're part of something.
When I played against Tyranids, the name on the codex ,there was Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Genesteelers, Termagaunts, Biovores, the floating guys, hormagaunts, lictors, ripper swarms everything but Tyranids.
Can you have an all Gretchen Ork army? How about an all servitor Space Marine army? Or an all Lesser Deamon Chaos Space Marine army? No generally the name on the cover of the book is the core troop and is thus emblematic of the force as a whole. The Tyranid army as seen today on the table top usually has no Tyranids in it.
I don't think the majority are dumb but you really need to make your statement a lot clearer:
"They also need to find about to put Tyranids on the table in Tyranid armies."
This sentence doesn't makes sense grammatically. You want (who) to find out about (what) on the table in a Tyranid Army?
Your reply makes it sound like you don't realize that the term "tyranid" is the name given to the race/species that is the "tyranid army". Tyrants, Genestealers, Termagaunts, Biovores, the floating guys (Zoanthropes BTW), hormagaunts, lictors, ripper swarms are ALL TYRANIDS.
Just because they don't have a core troop named "Tyranid" doesn't mean that the army isn't a "TYRANID" army. I think you are confusing the names.
Tyranids are named for the planet or moon where they were first encountered, Tyran. Since Tyranids don't have a certain spoken language the names for their subspecies ( the names in the codex) were all terms given by the imperium during all the wars they've been encountered.
I wasn't expecting a new codex but I'm not going to complain since any support is better than none. (sorry DE armies.. but it could be worse, you could have a Squat army...)
Also who the hell would have believed the IG would get a fast skimmer transport with Scout AND three lascannons? Or that loyalist marines would be seen riding effing WOLVES into battle?
Shame that the units you can stick in a Valk suck ass, and usually serve as a 'possible' one shot tank killer before getting waxed themselves.
I am sure there are exceptions, but thats what usually happens...
Gargoyles have always been awesome.
They also have always been metal... Which is the real reason they aren't used.
1. They were the same in shooting as gaunts.
2. They got roflstomped in CC by marines.
3. They sucked at hording because they cost 12pts a model.
4. Also, and I could be mistaken here, they don't have flesh hooks.
So gargs would be harder to kill all of them, but more die, and gargs deal slightly more wounds to WS4 but they take more due to their bad save and their lower I. Overall I would say that they're fairly balanced against eachother.
For 240pts, you could get (in theory) 40 gargoyles. In a normal 1500 pt game, that leaves loads of points to fill with shooty carnifexs, Warriors, etc. I think that is a pretty harsh (and I play nids!).
I'm lucky in that I live in a small town in North Carolina and the group of guys I play with here are all pretty cool and don't really power game.
As much as I want the Nids to rock, I don't want them to be too crazy and overpowered. I play to have fun and having an "uber" army just isn't for me.
I like to create and play with balanced lists.
If tons of people jumped in and started to build new nid armies (even if most of them buylike one battle force and get board) GW still gets sales off the nid line and that encourages them to continue the nid line.
See thats why I hate people who say I played this army before it was cool, I hope everyone doesn't band wagon.
Gw lives of band wagoning and band wagoning is what makes this company profit and profit equals more models and codex updates!
What I don't want is for them to be just the latest 'best uber army' and people only playing it for that reason. I'm all for more people taking up Tyranids, but when I play, I don't want to be winning just because my codex is the latest one, thus the better one, I want to be winning because I've had a good game and out-fought my opponent, which you can't really say when you have loads of cheap, powerful units.
He was talking to a girl and got distracted haha...
The Tyranid mash.
They did the mash.
It was an imperial smash.
They did the mash
It caught on in a flash
They did the mash
They did the Tyranid mash.
I assume there is more to that one.
Even if costed the same with almost the same stats, Gaunts can hold their own I guess. 6" + Fleet + 12" charge is nothing to be coughed at, and might be a bit stronger than 12" + 6" charge.
(and they are lower to the ground. Maybe about the only cover saves Gargoyles can get, which IIRC has their own flight stands, would probably involve a big bug standing in front soaking firepower)
This happening may mean that they'll go back to being HS only, which would re-crowd that area of the FOC while clearing room for warriors, which we hear will be a bigger deal. Further, LRusses in Guard go up to 9, but no one is so excited over that, because of the plethora of other good things to spend points on. The 'fex is getting competition from the Trygon in the MC dept., meaning that FOC won't be the only limiter...you may want something else cool with those points.
PS
The tyrant guard as lonely is speculative/possibly linked to the prior rumor, there's a pewter box called 'hive guard' which may be the purported HQ choice that enables troop warriors.
Making them act like a monstrous creature squad would be stepping on the toes of too many existing rules. They might limit how good this is by requiring each carnifex in the same heavy support choice to have the same biomorphs or something similar. Of course nine screamer killers is pretty juicy.
With Mech being the dominant playstyle, Fexes are almost obligatory for a nid player, to flip tanks and siphon firepower from enemy armor. The only way to make room for (and encourage) the taking of 'vores, and heavy warriors is to make fexes squadded.
Perhaps (speculative) the rules will be 1-3 independents as long as they're under a given points value, just as the restriction for taking them in elites is now.
Nothing to do but wait and see; and pray codex creep stays in check to some degree.
HOLY SH*T! I cannot wait for gargoyles to be more competitive (and plastic), field 18 Carnifexes or maybe a friking trygon and red terror. Good god this codex looks good, but will they fix gaunt swarms and No Retreat ? Can't wait to get my hands on it. Warriors look to be on par with other models their size (Ogryns), but I'm not thrilled about the Tyrant Guard (why rename them BODYguard? what's the point?). Genestealers should stay as is, and if fleet isn't standard, well that's just nuts.
Could make for some very frustrating wound allocation on a unit of 3 carnies with slightly different bio-mods...
Apocalypse is the big games.. and you know.. in apocalypse you can already take that many fexes if that's what you desire..
It was the same thing people said about IG and tanks.. Now how well did those 9-LR-in-average-sized-games-lists work in reality..? Have you ever even seen one? I dont think I have..
Also I think best thing would be that both nidzillas and hordes would be viable.. Rather than making one of the two much better..
Then I really hope that they count as independent creatures like Zoe's do.
the only thing expensive will be its retail price.
But, everything we've heard could be wrong.
No one has seriously suggested that a Gargantuan critter will be showing up, though.
Sounds kinda bad.
They sound really tough on paper, but a simple hidden powerfist can take them out handily.
I have to say that it looks like they've abandoned trying to make hem more horde friendly and are just going straight for the big monsters. Disappointing.
Almost perfectly aligned with the fluff, if you ask me. Just sounds like you are the type who will never give GW the benefit of the doubt. You know, those folks who will complain about a rule, then GW changes it, then you complain that it changed.
This round of rumors has stupid written all over it.
Take it with an atom of salt.
Waiting for the nerds to jump in on this one...
you know that you cannot take "an atom of salt" because common salt is composed of at least one atom Na and one atom Cl :D
Random numbers for anonymity = Nerd.
PhalanxLord = Nerd
Anyone else?
I'll have you know that you are now posting on a blog that is 100% devoted to a game where grown men collect, build, paint, and play with little plastic and metal miniatures using complicated rules and ARGUING ABOUT IT.
And you are now commenting that some people on this site are nerds?
WTF?
Good show man! o7
haha j/k j/k, i love this stupid game haha
Sorry about labeling you incorrectly. I meant no offense.
You are still a nerd, regardless if I am one as well.
:)
p.s. - I put a smiley in this post, so all your stuck up posters understand I am joking around and having fun. Because everyone knows, without smileys, the interenet is serious business.
I knew you were joking so I decided to make fun of myself and everyone else on this site simultaneously.
Go WH!
*intarwebz r serius bisness.*
buffo = buffo
its pretty obvious.
Also @Phalanx: 'one extra electron'.. sounds like a chemists way of expressing it.. =x
It's all about quantum mechanics and probability distributions.. Schrödingers equation ya know? :P
Your facking point ?
I thought that the above comments was quite cleaver and witty personally.
LOL
You are the man!
Also: Gargoyles for 6 points? They were a good buy at 12, now they'll have rending and (as they made the models) the fleshborer. Good god.
They can still be killed outright. Ie: when your blown into bits by a blast your body is not given a restitching power from you hive mind. BUT you could however be driven to great feats of will and pushed on even with a leg gone by the mere urges of the hive mind.
Would be way to good.
Well I wasn't holding my breath, but it sounds like the Trygon might very well become a HS choice which would be sweet!
Betcha they drop the point cost from the Apocalypse datasheet b/c I can build almost equal or better Carnies for about 100 pts less (currently).
Then while we're at it, we'll give my warboss the ability to throw his power klaw 24", at str10 ap 1, and boost his BS to 7.
Fleeting carnies is never going to happen. And if it does... ugh.
Personally I don't really see the problem. They can already run and at the moment I find that their lack of fleet makes it so shooty fexes are significantly better than close combat ones (and I've tried both-> crushing claw fexes are funner, but the lack of fleet makes things quite annoying).
Your ork warboss is already mean enough and doesn't need any additional help kickin' butt.
I'll put my money on any mega-ork warboss to win vs a CC carnie any day.
A fleeting carni would actually make it so they can keep up with the rest of the hive and actually be able to do what they were designed for - smashing into your opponent and tearing them to shreds like a tazmanian devil or wolverine.
You probably don't play nids, or against Nids much b/c if you do, then you know that a mob of boys can easily take a carni down thanks solely to the power claw armed Nob/Marine Sarge hiding in the unit (So many of my carnies die b/c of this rule).
And this doesn't include the rest of the mob/unit shooting and potentially wounding the carnie before combat has even begun...
The truth is, Carnie's aren't that good at killing full units in one charge. Here's why:
WS: 3 base, 4 if you pump it up. Means I'm hitting most things on 4+ (EVEN WITH the WS upgrade). It's not uncommon for me to miss all of my attacks even on the charge and with 6 attacks - cursed fickle dice gods!
Then, you've got the power fist/klaw/whatever hitting you back with at least 2 attacks. Which usually puts a couple of wounds on him and then he loses combat...
I: 1, or 2 if you boost it which is good for making your kills before the power fist sergeant - hopefully you've shot most of the squad up so he has to put a wound on the sarge and you kill him. But that usually doesn't happen.
A: 2 base = massive lameness. Now you can give it 2 additional Scything talons which means your carnie now has a base of 4A (5 on charge - 6 if he's tusked)
Or you can spend 25 pts to get tickling feather arms ... I mean "crushing claws" and get D6 Attacks. NOTE: that's D6 TOTAL attacks + charge bonus. Meaning, on the charge you'll be lucky to get 4+ attacks with this option.
In my experience, crushing claws is a complete waste of pts. If it was +D6 attacks, well shoot, that'd be insanely crazy and mean (where's the hive fleet that spawns these guys 'cuz I want in on that!)
At the end of the day, Carnies (at the moment) really aren't that scary in CC - at least, that's been my experience with them for the past year.
But if you get 2+ carnies and a decent army selection, you can do some really cool things with your carnies in tandem with your other units.
For example: I've used 2 Carnies standing side by side to block LOS to my unit of stealers or warriors behind them and then run everything up until the very last moment when it's too late for my opponent to get away from my claws.
Now, they ARE great for putting the fear of the hive into your opponent (if you have enough of 'em) and for soaking up tons of attention and firepower while your real army goes about it's business of killing everything (at least in theory)
So what is meant to be a big scary, mean CC killing machine is really just another big model whose bark is scarier than his bite.
At the end of the day, it's (good dice and) how you use your Carnies that makes them awesome or not so much.
I still wish they'd have fleet.
These Warsewer posters need to stay there.
People taking these posts WAAAAY to seriously...
LOL there's no way!
I don't believe that one at all.
But I like the 6 pts. I could field 90 gargoyles and it would a tad under 600 pts!
drool drool drool...
hahaha
Multiple carnifex in one spot makes me hot, if they make the Nidzilla army still viable then ill invest in a bug army...not really interested in a swarm army, or having to paint 50 bugs....
6 pt rending gargoyles just sounds insane unless they've got a huge weakness, like ld 6 and the inability to use the hive mind? I suspect that this one is BS.
The multiple Carnifexes in a singly HS slot could be easily done where it wouldn't be completely broken, either by a special wound allocation rule, removing the 2+ armor option, reducing their wounds, or simply increasing the price and having them deploy separately. Yes 9 individual Carnifexes sounds insanely nasty, until you realize how little else there is left on the field. I think this rumor has a grain of truth in it, but it isn't the whole story.
Upgraded warriors sounds very plausible, whether it's +1 wound or +1 toughness doesn't matter, they just die too easily right now.
The Tyrant bodyguard going on it's own sounds a little farfetched to me, but we'll see.
The Apocolypse critter sounds like it could be fun, but it had better be pricey.
The 20 shot weapon/combo also sounds a bit like the IG supertank that everyone was afraid of. It might exist, but there are probably better/cheaper options. Sounds slightly plausible, but I'm not to sure about this rumor.
Gargs:
30*1/2*3/4*1/3= 3.75~4 dead
60*1/2*(1/6+1/6*1/3)= 6.666666~7
MEQ: 5*2/3*2/3*5/6= 1.85 ~2
Orks:
60*1/3*1/2*1/3= 3.3333~3
MEQ: 9*1/2*1/2*5/6= 1.875~2
81*1/2*1/2*1/3= 6.75~7 + 4*1/2*5/6= 1.666667
Roughly equal (both kill about 11 after including the nob). Now if they were charged by the 10 MEQ:
Gargs: 3.3333~3 MEQ dead
MEQ: 18*2/3*2/3*5/6= 6.6667~7
PF: 3*2/3*5/6= 1.66667->1
So the gargs kill 3 and the MEQ kill about 8+~4 more due to NR wounds, so its 12 to 3.
For the orks:
MEQ: 18*1/2*1/2*5/6=3.75~4
Orks: 50*1/2*1/3*1/3= 2.77778~3
PF and PK: 1.25->1
So the marines kill 5 orks and the orks kill 4 marines. Orks lose by one and lose one guy. The marines are pretty much screwed against he orks, but they took out a nice chunk of the gargs. Even with rending the gargs are still extreme glass cannons-> they die easily. 6 orks vs 12 gargs vs charging MEQ, and I didn't even include the MEQ shooting first (which would account for 4.444 gargs or 3.333 more orks, so it would be more like 9 orks to 16 gargs).
Except that's precisely what it attempts to do, that's the entire point of mathhammer. Of course if you're an idiot who looks at these numbers and sees the averaged result and thinks it's supposed to be a minimum for every time their favorite unit shoots/CCs, mathhammer will fail you. Intelligent players will use their judgement to juggle the odds and probability of success when commanding units or building their lists.
Do you just not believe in numbers? Do you think there is some mystical aura surrounding the dice that will benefit or condemn you according to the whims of fate?
The stormboyz are about to start taking morale tests while the gargoyles are still strong and can kill anything on the board besides a landraider.
If you add in the Nob with a PK, they do a bit better, but then we're only talking about 12 stormboyz VS those 30 gargs.
On the charge they'll lose 2.5, they'll do 34 attacks, 17 will hit, 8.5 will wound, so three dead marines before the PK, after the PK, an additional two marines should die. so just under 5 dead marines.
30 charging gargs will have 4 die before they can strike, 52 attacks, 26 hits, 4.5 rends, 4.5 wounds, so they should kill about 6 marines.
Second round:1.25 additional stormboyz die, 21 attacks, 7 wounds, 2.33 additional dead marines. PK kills 1.25 more, so 2.5 more dead marines. 2-3 marines left.
2-3 additional garg deaths, 23.5 attacks, 11.75 hits, about 2 rends, and 2 wounds, about 2-3 more dead marines. 1-2 Marines left,
This is overly simplified because of the vagaries of the shooting phase, but I see rending gargs as far superior to stormboyz in every way other than killing landraiders and the fact they need synapse critters to keep them in the fight. Stormboyz are far more vulnerable to fire, they're far more likely to run and never come back, and without a Nob they can't hurt a lot of vehicles or monstrous creatures.
The 20 shot gun sounds reasonable, really. They already have Hive Tyrants who get 12 shots, with reroll to hit and reroll to wound.
A shooty Trygon really scares me though, my bros TL Devourer Dakkatyrant already kills too much stuff as it is.
3 carnifexs with all the upgrades= alotta points spent on a unit that cannot hold objectives.
An army that fields nine of of those beasts wont have alot left after the carnifexes and synapses .
If they all have the same weapons but you give them a different tail weapon and you use wound allocation they last a while...
yeah...i dont think you need much more
This is the typical argument 'for' these kinds of units.
The counter to your argument, based in real life play, is that these units RAPE YOUR troop units. These units SIT on objectives and can't be removed easily at all. These units cannot be ignored in anyway, carnifexes are NOT monoliths, you have to deal with Carnifexes eventually.
Havik110 mentioned ranged Carnifexes, and anyone with experience knows how deadly that are... I am not even talking about THOSE! Ranged Carnifexes are just mean. Really mean.
I'd rather DE or sisters get a new codex before 'nids, don't get me wrong. But saying its WRONG of GW to release a new tyranid codex is just the height of stupidity. Anything which gives xenos a boost is nothing but good.
I know I probably appear to be a GW fangirl, but someone has to play devils advocate. A don't agree with a lot of things they do, but I understand why they think they need to and why some may be in the companies best interest. Others are just insane (like lumping SoBs in with Inquisition, grr). I've also quit WFB because I can't stand the direction it has gone recently.
Sisters are great, but they shouldn't be lumped in with Inquisition in my opinion. People start thinking they are subervient to the Inquisition and the army list just doesn't seem as fleshed out as it ought to be.
How so? I just assumed they put them in the same book, since they might not sell well enough separately (not a lot of unit options compared to other codices if you just do one force or the other). Space marines can be called on by inquisitors whether they like it or not, but I think of marines as being independent despite this.
Maybe what sisters need is their equivalent of variant lists (even if in fluff only). By that I mean, black templars, or white scars or salamanders etc. Some more back ground to help define the various orders and allow people to really define their own would be good I reckon. Now I don't intend to play sisters (got to many other armies for that :P), but I can't help but I don't see anything in their book that allows people to focus on certain units, or that any orders favor one unit above another.
Lets see you're from what most posters have seen u are pro GW , which has come up before. So I'm going to bet as well U work for GW crap. Have you ever even been at a Google,Apple,Facebook, I dare say it Mircosoft? Those companys do things in the internet age. GW is still working in the mail order 1970's mentality. Why? Because the top people in GW have no clue what the customers want. Should I remind them of misinterpreted 3rd Ed.?
You can go pull that GW car salesman on somebody else. I know how things work. I have good friend that's a GW mgr. I see the difference after he worked there from before. They have to defend the CRAPPY GW because it's their living.
I'm less pro-GW and more anti-whining moron. You want to complain about neglected armies, fine. I'm still waiting for a DE codex. You want to complain about stupid decisions like the combined Witchunter codex, fine. Want to complain about rules loopholes and poor customer relations, go right ahead. But you can't sit there and say releasing a new codex for one of the most popular xeno armies is a bad business move and act surprised when you get treated like an idiot.
Actually some of it sounds just like what I've (pessimistically) expected. Apparently there are people who think the current codex is no good. I have no idea what they're talking about. Changing anything in a way that makes it more powerful is difficult for me to understand.
I write all of this from the position: I am a deviant.
I've heard the same maniac who wrote the Guard Codex is writing this one, does he play 40K? With other people? This guy's off the rails.
I look forward to the mania that will undoubtedly follow this release. It will certainly be interesting.
NIDS shut down psychic powers dead...and since world wolf is 25 and scream is only 18 if you allow a player into that bubble then you should concede the game right there...
World wolf doesn't hurt nids, but it destroys 'crons and anything nurgle...
range, stands a goo chance of sniping, later on in the game :)
2009/11/5 Disqus <>
almost finished painting 1000pts, played first game yesterday (against codex
dawn of war, tae ad hold) - lost but impresse wih te army. The new codex is
far, far better, and has created a much more balanced, themed and fun army.
I'm running with:
Battle leader, thunder wolf, frost axe, storm shield. (squad killer)
Rune prist, terminator armour, wolf tail talisman, combi plasma.Jwsof the
world wolf launcher)
Dreadnought - 2xtwinlinked autocannons (failed to kill anything, but scared
my opponent)
Dreadnought - Assault cannon/CC Weapon (Might replace with Lascannons)
5 Grey Hunters (Well well worth it! - need more)
6 Blood Claws with Power Weapon (needs a transport next time)
5 Sky Claws (Very good)
5 Long Fangs (2xplasma, 1xlascannon, 1xmissile launcher) - survived 3
vindicator shots!
~ 960 pts
2009/11/5 Disqus <>
and arguing various moot points.
If all you do is take carnies, how many games are you gonna play before the fun wears off? Yeah, I CAN field up to 6 carnies, but boring!
Personally, I've found carnies are best as a LOS blocker and as psychological warfare. My goal is to convince my opponent that he absolutely MUST kill the carnies if he wants a chance of winning -- this usually doesn't take much convincing on my part...
Hopefully, the carni will get into combat with whatever APC my opponent has and tear the open so the rest of my army can get to the juicy, delicious insides.
Once I've got your units out on the table, they're dead. Almost nothing survives a round of shooting from 100 gaunts w. Fleshborers and Warriors.
-I heard something about a model shooting 20 times but was speaking with a girl a this point, so i can't say if it's was a weapon or multiple weapon on the same model.
Speaking with a girl? This entire thread is discredited.
I love the nid background, but i cant stant them on TT.
My best mate plays them, and they are also one of the three armys i fear the most (the other two being tau and DE- if its got stupidly overpowered guns its constrous creatures....) I think that they should be allowed to.... die out..... squat like...
....so I felt all gooey like and suddenly didn't care much about weapons..