DISQUS

Brian · 3 months ago

Don't forget the Swooping Hawks and the Sunrifle. Yeah I said it... Swooping Hawks.

NoldorsRevenge · 3 months ago

they also have the super hot grenade pack while deep striking! And haywire grenades!

xzandrate · 3 months ago

I'm surprised by the article and the comments on this one.

Alot of pinning naysayers, but really, pinning is no more useless than a melta weapon. What good is a melta if you are out of range, or there are no tanks, or everything has an invuln save.

Pinning is a cheap benefit, most weapons that cause pinning are already good on their own, pinning is just an added bonus. Or in the case of the few pure pinning weapons, they are cheap to fit in. You may complain about high Ld and fearless armies, but when it happens to you, you'll curse pinning.

As far as the article, I think Fritz did fine, but was surprisingly short. There was no mention of using pinning to negate a units bonuses before being assaulted(pinned units get no benefit from cover when assaulted, or defensive grenades); and the pinning units to negate them stayed purely defensive and made no mention of pinning a troop as it's trying to move towards an objective to prevent a capture. This is even more effective against units like bike armies like Fritz's because you can pin that guarding bike squad BEFORE it can turbo-boost and control/contest an objective towards the end of a game.

LEGION3000 · 3 months ago

A melta is never useless. Don't forget, you can toast Carnifexes, Tyrants, terminators, command squads and anything else with substantial saves just as well as blasting vehicles, and all while moving and assaulting. On the other hand, I have never once destroyed a vehicle with a sniper rifle.

goatboybols · 3 months ago

Yup - was going to say that too, so if they turbo boost (which they will most likely do) then pinning does nothing.

The biggest issue with this army, is that now you are opened up to anti horde weapons. Which means Hvy bolters, hvy stubbers, massed assault cannons, etc will hurt you since you are not hidden in nice mobile sheds of doom.

And you take one pinning test per unit that shot at you and caused wounds. If you take 4 wounds from one sniper squad, then you take 1 pinning test. If the next squad shoots at you and causes pinning wounds again, it is one pinning test. Wounds occur at the exact same time, thus the option of having to take a pinning test occurs after you have calculated wounds etc.

But nice article Fritz and good to see you on board. It gives an interesting thought, but still the issue of nob bikerz would hurt the list. Also versus the all armor 12 IG list, this would get chewed up pretty quick. Hell hounds would love to go after those flip happy pointie eared jerks :).

Macfeegle · 3 months ago

Goatboy - You mention this "you take one pinning test per unit that shot at you and caused wounds" and I am inclined to agree with you as that is the way 4th ed. worked.
However, how do you interpret the rules when they say "If a unit...suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a pinning test." p.31 BRB.

I note that it says a pinning weapon, not a unit firing pinning weapons, or a unit of pinning weapons, etc.

This has me interested, as it makes sniper units actually worthwhile as each shot has the (limited) potential to cause a pinning test.

goatboybols · 3 months ago

You take wounds all at once from the squad that shot. So as soon as wounds are taken, you take a pinning check. You don't take it, immediately after the one wound, since you are assigning the damage all at once, and your a taking wounds all at once (we roll them separately to assign them correctly, but they happen all at the same time). Once wounds are taken, then you immediately take a pinning check. Not for each wound, just if the squad is wounded etc.

goatboybols · 3 months ago

Also, once that one squad finishes, and you pass your pinning check and the next one wounds you again, you have to take a pinning check again etc.

Macfeegle · 3 months ago

The problem I have with it Goatboy, is that it seems that you have to take a pinning test per pinning weapon - I think I'll keep it simple and just do it per weapon type in one turn - i.e. sniper rifles, mortars etc.

LEGION3000 · 3 months ago

Let me make this absolutely clear.
You fire all weapons in a squad at the same time, you don't fire pinning weapons first and then bolters and then plasma. Its all one roll - weapons. You use different dice to remember what effect each weapon has but it is all one roll, even if you roll them separate.
you roll all the to wound rolls, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Then you assign the wounds using different colored dice for each type of weapon and you roll saves ALL AT THE SAME TIME. If any of the "Pinning weapons" caused a wound, i.e. not the bolter or the plasma, you take a pinning test.
Remember the only time you EVERY roll separately is in close combat with initiative order. Each squads shooting is done simultaneously regardless of how you play it.

Macfeegle · 3 months ago

Legion3000 - I'll make this absolutely clear for you seeing as you chose to either nor read my posts, or deliberately misinterpreted them.

The 5th ed. rules state that you take a pinning test for each pinning weapon that causes an unsaved wound - that is where I have a stumbling block as it doesn't say each unit firing pinning weapons - therefore it seems feasible that a a unit of ratlings for example, that caused 3 unsaved wounds, would cause three pinning tests, to me that seems odd.

The statement I made was that I would ask my opponent to only make a pinning test for each different pinning weapon that they receive an insaved wound from in the same turn i.e. sniper rifle, mortar, griffon

I am unsure where you got the idea from that I would roll each weapon individually - having played WHFB since 2nd ed. and WH40K since it was known as Rogue Trader - I think I have a pretty good handle on how to mass roll.

I think the point I am asking about has some validity since we were discussing echos from 4th ed only a couple of days ago - this could appear to be one of them.

NoldorsRevenge · 3 months ago

as per the tournament rules used in North America the inat faq states: +RB.31A.01 – Q: Can a single unit firing multiple
‘pinning’ weapons cause an enemy unit to take more
than one pinning test per turn?
A: Unless specified otherwise in the weapon’s description,
no. Only one pinning test is taken due to the firing of a single
enemy unit regardless of how many pinning weapons they
fired or how many wounds they inflicted [clarification].

If you play in tournaments or choose to follow the rules according to those people then there is your answer.

joshuadearth · 3 months ago

Again, I tend to disagree with the nob bikers statement as I played a nob biker list in the ard boyz this year and he deployed across the front with the bikes and a wagon on each side of the line. (Spearhead deployment) and turn one I pinned the bikes and wrecked both wagons and assaulted and wiped the contents of the wagons. Consolidated away from him and the rest of his army which was depolyed behind the main line was stuck there unable to move. I then proceeded to keep the bikers pinned for the rest of the game until I killed them. I lost a total of 6 DE models that whole game and he was running the mega-nob/nob-biker list! It is the same thing that happened to the marine player earlier in that day who brought marneus calgar and a full 10 terminators. They never got to take a shot or move from their deployed locations becuase they were pinned for a whole six turns. So I tend to disagree with everyone saying pinning is not a viable tactic. I have used pinning to win many games.

I do agree however that you cannot have that be the only thing your army can do. If it is a viable army without pinning but with pinning is just great then good, but if you are relying on the pinning it just won't do. Again I mean no offense to anyone this is just my opinion and experience. Also a very good article.

whitestar · 3 months ago

Of course pinning works for you - you're Dark Eldar! No one does pinning like the Dark Eldar. When most armies are, at best, forcing pinning checks at -1, Ld 9 and 10 armies will still pass a vast majority of the time. Of course if we all had the Dark Eldar ability to force pinning checks at -4 or -5, then pinning would be viable for anyone.

I think pinning is pretty much viable for Dark Eldar, Tyranids (if you commit to the Psychic Choir), and Tau (if you commit to using your markerlights in the right way). However, the presence of high Ld and fearless armies makes pinning a bit of a gamble in any real competitive setting unless it's a "Why not" thing. If you rely on it, you'll be sadly disappointed most of the time.

goatboybols · 3 months ago

If the bikes had a chance to turbo boost, then you wouldn't have pinned them. But if not, pinned them away :). It is again. one of those first turn type of things etc, and in reality, it sounds like the nob biker player played you wrong. But oh well, awesome for you :).

It seems a lot of players (myself included) play versus Dark Eldar wrong. A lot of it has to deal with not seeing the army a lot, and a lot of older rules becoming better through the transformation of 4th to 5th edition.

But yes, relying on pinning won't win you the game, using it at times will help you win the game :).

jester1525 · 3 months ago

So expected this to be an article on using pieces of wire to hold together pieces...

I try to keep at least a couple carbines in each tau unit for the same reason.

pierce raats · 3 months ago

me too, i thought the 'tactica' part was meant to be a joke. and the only part i could read was : "Anytime you roll dice in 40K bad things can happen…failed armor saves, perils of the warp, exploding vehicles,..." i thought it was going to continue with "anytime you roll a dice your models arms or wings can fall off.. so here is how to pin your dudes..."...lol, it was a good article though.

Fire_Warrior · 3 months ago

lol that tricked me too!

squirrel_fish · 3 months ago

I like the concept, but I feel that against many armies in 40k, this style of play will be mostly ineffective. High leadership or Fearless creatures are everywhere. Most units that you will want to pin have a decent chance of surviving the barrage, and even if they fail one or two saves, their high Leadership score will keep them unpinned.

Frankly, the only armies that I can see this working against is Tau, IG and Eldar and pinning becomes rather ineffective if they're mechanized.

joshuadearth · 3 months ago

I tend to disagree as I find this tactic with my DE to work best against regular space marines! As they have one and only one character that can try to combat pinning and that is sicarius who grants LD 10. Even with that with an average of a -4 to every pinning test from my DE list even they will fail. So I tend to disagree. And especially since the DE don't even need to cause a wound to cause a pinning test that makes it even easier. And since 70% of most armies are marine based it makes it a very viable tactic.

whitestar · 3 months ago

Not every army applies minuses to pinning, though. Sure, it works for Dark Eldar because you can force pinning checks to pass on Ld 5! For most of us, we're making you check pinning on your normal Ld. It's more of an added surprise than a reliable tactic for most armies. Sure, there are lists tailored to force pinning checks, but you don't see them because of the popularity of largely fearless or Ld 10 armies (Chaos, mobs of Orks, Witch Hunters, Tyranids, even Marines).

joshuadearth · 3 months ago

Marines is the army I have the most success against though. So that doesn't really apply. And most chaos armies that run all fearless units are so few in number that there is no problem there either. Orks depending on style can give me a problem and witch hunters take a little more finesse but all in all it is a solid tactic especially against marine based armies.

LEGION3000 · 3 months ago

But you are still coming from a DE point of view that can stack a bunch of pinning negatives. Pretty much every other army is not going to be able to do that. Making pinning an unreliable or downright lousy tactic for 95% of armies.
That said, I still take a unit of sniper scouts with Telion in friendly games. If you can drop that Nob with power claw and get a few more tags with the rifles you can rack up some pins. When hidden in cover they can distract an opponent just by being incredibly annoying.

zcminig · 3 months ago

I agree with Joshuadearth. Dark Eldar are fantastic at pinning units, and anything that stops my Warriors/Wyches getting shot to bits is a good thing! All my Raiders have Horrorfexes and most of my Sybarites have Terrorfexes.
My other favourite unit is my Grotesques, beat a unit in assault and they fall back. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I'm sure I will be!) but I'm sure I read in an FAQ that this applies to Fearless units too, something about no Ld test taken so no Ld test to automatically pass.

Another thing to mention too is that Pinned units don't get an advantage for being in cover when you assault them. Ideal for lower Initiative armies.

Sorrowsky · 3 months ago

I like Fritz tactics and pinning is useful, so many times have i needed to rely on pinning to prevent an assault from say Terminators with their TH/SS combos. I myself use Imperial Guard and the combination of a well placed PBS and hopeful mortar shot/ or Ratlings had prevent my opponent from contesting my troops.

Kungfuhustler · 3 months ago

As an IG player the PBS has opened up pinning as a very workable solution to many of lifes problems. With allied sisters of battle the IG can lower enemy ld scores even further to allow snipers and morters to work more effectively across the board but I doubt that this would be a workable game plan due to fearless armies.

cobly · 3 months ago

The STR 9 Large Blast that PBS can use works just fine against fearless units...

Kungfuhustler · 3 months ago

True, but the pinning that I dish out with ratlings/Vindicare assassain does not work, nor do mortars. I meant to say that an army that utilizes pinning as a gimmick will not work. My PBS tend to do quite well against MEQ as they are AP3 or better 50% of the time, and the ratlings are quite good against Daemon princes/MC's as well. I'm about to go and test out a gimmicky ld drain sisters/IG list right now. If it works well against my CSM opponent I'll post up some results in the lounge. If a list can't handle all comers, it's a bad list.

nvillacci · 3 months ago

Um Eldar Missile Launchers cause pin test?

I find pinning more of a bonus then anything, I play with Marine Scout snipers and I am lucky to wound much less pin.

It seems most things out there that pin and arent ordinance have such low AP or are inherently difficult to wound with.

Paul Beck · 3 months ago

Um... Yeah - Plasma missiles are Heavy 1, Blast, Pinning.

Everything else I agree with. Tau Carbines, despite being S5 are AP5, so even if you wound it's mostly saved unless you've really load up on them to increase your chances. Even then most units are at least LD 8+. At least Tau can use the Markerlights to force the LD down to help the chances of your opponent failing the test.

The trick to pinning is to use the effect in combination with a LD sapping ability if you have one available.

Maine · 3 months ago

The article seems to work on the assumption that pinning in 5th is still the same as it was in 4th. While I'm personally of that school, it is worth noting that it is still a hotly debated topic as to whether it is a single pinning test if suffering any wounds from pinning weapons from one unit's shooting, one pinning test per wound suffered from a pinning weapon, or one pinning test per pinning weapon that causes a wound.

Mordakai · 3 months ago

As I understand from the writting in my BRB Spanish Version is that each time a unit fires and causes wound(s), pinning test to be made. It even mentions several pinning tests in the same firing phase. As I understand it, it is not a pinning test for each wound but a pinning test if one or more wounds are made. Of course, if a second pinning weapons unit causes wounds, another test should be made.

I think the idea of a pinning army is great, but will only work if the army is good itself. I'll explain myself: if you remove the pinning rule and the army still has chances, then it will only get better with pinning. What you will not achieve is to get a good army from a bad one only by adding pinning tests (IMHO, of course).

Ej · 3 months ago

I believe it is one pinning test per unit firing at it. So a squad of SM that were under fire from a squad of Ratlings, Mortar heavy weapons, and a Basilisk firing indirectly and took wounds from all three would make three pinning tests. And pass all of them.

LEGION3000 · 3 months ago

LOL, yeah more than likely they do.

Also that is how we read the rule.

FatalXS · 3 months ago

As Mordakai picked up the wording of the rule is "any unsaved wounds". Since I'm not aware of any sniping weapon that causes multiple wounds, please say if that's not the case, then it must mean multiple wounds caused by a single unit's round of fire.

vindur · 3 months ago

its not the sniping weapon that causes multiple wounds, but pinning weapons for example, blastmasters, plasma missiles, mortars etc

Adam Spindler · 3 months ago

Pinning is great but it's quite un reliable...

My Eldar list runs 2 units of 5 Pathfinders, 2 Serpants with Missiles and 3 War Walkers with dual Missiles, allowing for a maximum of 18 pinning tests in one turn (you can all can it before you start arguing pinning with me), now that may sound a lot but on average it isn't goiong to be that many, maybe 5-6 tops, so i MAY get to pin a single squad if i load my entire force into it...

to summarise, yeh pinnings good, but it's not THAT good

boneheart · 3 months ago

pinning means two words, 1 race : dark eldar

absolutionis · 3 months ago

Tyranids' Psychic Choir and Barbed Strangler works as well.

whitestar · 3 months ago

Except then you kill your synapse abilities, leaving yourself vulnerable to pinning yourself!

NeilBrimelow · 3 months ago

Dark Eldar=Ultimate Pinnage! :)

Pinning is a nice bonus for some weapons (like barbed strangler, eldar missile launcher) but I don't work my strategy around them.

Most units in fifth edition have immunities to pinning or are stubborn, etc. Pinning weapons work wonders against the Tau and Necrons though.

Pinning tests are done per group of shooting (and group of wounds), not per SHOT. Whomever says it's per shot is a douchebag and is wrong.

Take for instance a group of 10 Rangers fire at a group of 10 Space Marines. All the shots are fired at the same time, not individually.

Let's say the Rangers score 7 hits, two wounds, and the unlucky SM player rolls 2's. That's two (pinning wounds inflicted), so the SM player rolls for a pinning test ONCE, and since the SM captain is on the board, the Space Marine player rolls against a 10 LD and passes. :)

UltramarineFan · 3 months ago

Like someone has said already, sniper waepons are often hard to wound with and in general when you think of the armies you're likely to play it's not that easy to get them to be pinned. Myself, I just like the models and giving scouts a 3+ cover save gives a lot of satisfaction. (2+ with a techmarine!)

willydstyle · 3 months ago

Don't forget that turboboosting bike units are immune to pinning. Puts a big damper on the nob biker example, unless the ork player were keeping those bikers nice and slow for some reason.

Herald of Nurgle · 3 months ago

Kept em nice and slow in order to charge, probably. Meh. Only an example.

Chumbalaya · 3 months ago

Basing an army on pinning is a bad idea. High Ld units, Fearless, and mech all laugh at pinning. And even if they don't have that (so basically Tau) you have to actually cause wounds to force tests.

It's a fun little bonus for certain weapons, but definitely not the basis of your strategy. Unless you have PBS or Scream, then it's workable provided they aren't Fearless or in vehicles.

kaptinscuzgob · 3 months ago

I just got a unit of Sniper Scouts for my Space Marines, so im thinking of splitting the unit using combat squads and having them cover both flanks from suitable terrain pieces

LEGION3000 · 3 months ago

Its fun but don't rely on it to work. I find scout snipers main objective is the noisy cricket approach. They bug your enemy more than actually hurt them so they send something powerful after them and the rest of your army is spared.

tyoiup · 3 months ago

Imperial Guard Mortars = Mass Pinning

acheron · 3 months ago

yeah man if you had the cash you can DUMP loads of moarters lol

festablo · 3 months ago

I love my psyker battle squad. I sprinkle pinning weapons throughout my army just for that reason. Even a special weapon squad of snipers or an HQ with a few sniper rifles combined with the PBS and fire on my target to lower cover saves can really stop a unit cold.

Tynskel · 3 months ago

This is where pinning works. The unfortunate problem in 40k is that Ld is high. A way to reduce Ld lends to these opportunities, however, they are rare abilities to lower Ld.

DrWobbles · 3 months ago

I ran a pinning eldar load out against my brothers imperial guard a while back. I found that yes i did manage to pin his most threatening units but only after dumping the pinning weapons on that particular squad. Pinning is inefficient unless paired with negative leadership modifiers.

marlborought89 · 3 months ago

I know how the power of pinning can seriously change the outcome of a game.
Have you ever seen a morter kill 2 tau ghosts and get the other two pinned, well I did! saved my whole right flank.
but to me pinning is nothing more then a usefull gimmik you get with a weapon. It really is nothing to rely on. Especially when you keep all the Armys in mind, which completely ignore moral checks (is that spelled right?) like: Tyranids, most of CSM, big Ork mobs etc.
In my last 5 or 6 games, my Griffons didn`t pin one single unit, which are about 20 morale checks.
WFW
Marlborough

slxiii · 3 months ago

what is a tau ghost?

absolutionis · 3 months ago

Probably a Stealthsuit

slxiii · 3 months ago

in that case i don't think 4 can take out a whole right flank....

marlborought89 · 3 months ago

Yeah, sorry a stealthsiut, I only knew the German translation and they are called ghosts there. Well the suits were in a PERFECT position and only the mortar could get them, because they alwys jumped behind cover and my Basilisk wasn`t in minimum range. The thing is, my army was very unprotected there, he probably would have killed my command squat a 1-2 Infantry squats. Without that mortar should I probably would have lost the game!

MajorSoB · 3 months ago

I am not sold on this tactic. I was annoying yet ineffectual when used by marines with whirlwinds and snipers in last edition, and with the addition of more fearless based armies ( like most Chaos Cults and mob orks ) its a trick that doesnt work too well. I dislike specialized lists since they work great one day and fail miserably the next. Just my opinion...

helvexis · 3 months ago

mm should be mentioned that dark eldar have as far as ive seen have the best pinning weapons i ussually have 4-10 depending on how nice im feeling when im making a list only thing that you fear is fearless armies like deathwing.

LordSandwich · 3 months ago

And Nids, and Orks, and CSM, and Chaos Daemons, and GK...

absolutionis · 3 months ago

I have considered this tactic, but the biggest problem here is the fact that you cannot pin fearless units. Fearlessness is very common as is high leadership. You have to hammer large Ork mobs and just hope your firepower is enough to take out Plague Marines.

Tyranids and Daemons would be an extremeproblem.

Also, Imperial Guard vehicles would get outright annoying. All you have are Wraithlords to take out vehicles unless you want to glace-spam the enemy with Harlequins

Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines would be the worst with their vehicles and high leadership. I'm not sure how reliably you can take out a Land Raider.

acheron · 3 months ago

...well landraiders and monoliths aside there still is tha small chance you will do some penitrating hits on tanks with the Harlequins kiss. Ive seen my 10man unit of daemonets take down 3 tanks when I played against my buddys imperial guard a month ago. you count as hiting against there rear AV witch in most armys is only around AV10.

notimewasters · 3 months ago

I love the idea of creating a themed army and if that theme is based around one concept like pinning, this would really test your skills as a gamer. Certainly after playing a couple of games with your sniping / partisan army you would know the pinning rules inside and out. The benefit of a large collection and regular gaming is being able to play with lists- it smacks of Jervis's sugguested gamer challenges in the latest White Dwarf.

Let's see, guard pinning army- stormtroopers infiltrating with pinning weapons, PBS, sniper rifle upgrades for squads, mortars and barrage ordnace -

liazardman · 3 months ago

The one thing this article managed to leave out was all the ambiguity with the new pinning rules. GW still has not come out with Errata or an FAQ stating how exactly pinning works.

For any one that doesn't know what im talking about its just a change in the rules wording. Without going too much into detail they state that a pinning test must be taken immediately when a wnd is caused by a pinning weapon. It also says that if the unit passes they may have to make more than 1 per turn but they fail to adress what happens if more than one pinning weapon in the same firing unit causes a wnd. The options either being more tests for any additional pinning weapons until a test is failed or just 1 cumulative test for the unit.

The reality is as other have said there are units out there its hard to pin, but the reality is depending on which way gw goes with this rule it could be powerful. I use it the same was as I use lasguns, because i have never seen 5 terminators survive my 50man infantry squad

acheron · 3 months ago

it only sais that if they pass the test they may be forced to take a pining test again but if they fail(go to ground) they cant be made to take the test again.
and sence wounds are taken at the same time there would only be one test taken for each groupe of weapons that caus pinning (like snipers) but feel free to bog them down with multipull units that have pinning

liazardman · 3 months ago

Yeah I see your point. However it still remains a rather large topic for discussion multiple forms support each way of viewing it. I sent a query to the rules people at GW as did someone else I know, That was a while ago and never heard back

acheron · 3 months ago

his list with clowns looks fun and if you add a lil mech to it i think would be pretty cool. I use mortars and comand squad sniper rifles with master carafted added to them to insure some hits in my vraksian renigades and I agree that it is difficult to pin alot of armys BUT I tend to pick on a squad with everything(mortars,snipers) till it gets pined and it works just fin if it doesnt outright kill the unit lol

in outherwords i find that if you pick on a unit eventualy (usualy 2 turns) they fail the test or in the case of fearless units are no longer a thret to your plans anymore.

Name · 3 months ago

tau has a strong means of making this concept(super pinning) happen, but as noted some armies are entirely immune to it.

Matt Berrisford · 3 months ago

erm, are you guys mental?

he explicitly said not to base your army on pinning, but that you shouldnt discount the benifits it can have. of course it sucks vs fearless, but thats like saying hormagaunts are rubish becuase they bounce off plague marines.

no, you shouldnt rely on pinning, but unless your a fool, you should be able to see the benifit "deleting" a unit for a turn has. a lazcannon is rubish if you fire it at a guardsman. so dont fire pinning weapons at the fearless unit. and the comment of "if you do 4 wounds with a pinning weapon they only take one test" well duh, but they just lost 4 men. thats a large portion of a squad, or at least a nice "i killed 4 men". not "omg wtf bbq i killed 4 menz butz the pinnin dint workz omgz pinnin is crap omgz"

i despair sometimes, i realy do

acheron · 3 months ago

was this post really necessary? lol
"erm, are you guys mental?"

Matt Berrisford · 3 months ago

unfortunatly so.

read the first 20 posts and tell me its not a bunch of crazed loonies rambling about a topic they dont understand. read before you comment

acheron · 3 months ago

no I believe puting ppl down on a discussion either by singleing them out or as a group is what I was talking about.
maby try enlightening a group of ppl that do not understand what its about insted of puting them down.

what I was talking about was the rude manner in wich you made your point.

think befor you comment.

Matt Berrisford · 3 months ago

how can you possibly "enlighten" people who have read a post saying "do not base your amy upon pinning" and in their head it says "pinning is the only viable strategy, my whole army pins, if you dont pin you suck".

my read before commenting wasnt aimed at you, it was the crux of my point. the mental people in this threat who have started to rant about how the original post is trash becuase he talks about the theoretical value of pinning have not read the thread. they have just jumped to the conclusion that hes saying pinning is godlike.

and you have completly missread what i said also. i havent actually attacked anyone, i made a flippant remark backed up by valid points that if you actually read them, would enlighten your view of the game.

acheron · 3 months ago

again,my responce was about your exicution.
you have a valid point and i didnt not argue outherwise.
I only mentiond that you came off rude by saying "erm, are you guys mental?" and "omg wtf bbq i killed 4 menz butz the pinnin dint workz omgz pinnin is crap omgz" and in that sence came out as an agressive "know it all" sort of post.
and when you come off in such a manner it doesnt get any point across verry well
patronizing ppl in any general way isnt needed when there are rules being talked about. and yes,calling anyone mental or any outher demeaning names nomater how general ,it is attacking them and I made my point before by stating "singleing them out or as a group" in outher words a single person OR a group wich in a general sence you chose to attack the group of ppl that didnt get what the actual post was about.

sorry to keep this up but I believe both our points have been made.

MilitantJester · 3 months ago

This article was kinda really short...and not much on tactics...

But anyways, I think that Tau are undoubtedly the best army for pinning. (In fact the best army in general! Lol) Because if you take a few markerlights and rail rifles (and honestly, any Tau army without these, unless it's entirely mech/suits, needs to get some) and you have leftover markerlight hits at the end, just use them to reduce the enemy ld!

Negative · 3 months ago

Seriously? You have markerlights left over? Do you actually take weapons in your list? Pinning has always been such a poor ability ever since 3rd. Tau are no better than the worst. If you're wasting your markerlights on pinning then you obviously don't mind the horrible BS that plagues most of the Tau army and the huge prevalence of cover saves. Whatever. Pinning is a waste of time. The article was fine but too optimistic as far as I'm concerned.

Bobx66 · 3 months ago

I am going to be running a full Psychic Quire with 4 guards and 5 Barbed Stranglers on my carnifexs. 2 of which will be twin linked. I would have linked a bit more tactica on actually pinning, as in what needs to be pinned, how to use it to block enemy movement, best uses against MEQ, etc.

Taipan · 3 months ago

The problem with pinning is that it's more of a bonus than a reliable game mechanic. Also, a lot of people tend to 'Go to Ground' with their weaker infantry (ie those most likely to be pinned), so they do it for you (but get a bonus for doing so).

It's not something I'd base an army around (and this is coming from a Tau player who has markerlights and therefore the ability to impose massive Ld penalties for Pinning). There are far more important ideals to focus on with a typical 40k army. These are;

- Massed fire (to kill infantry models)
- High-Strength low-AP fire (to kill Monstrous Creatures and heavy infantry)
- Massed S7/8 fire (to kill transports/light skirmishers ie Landspeeder/walkers)
- Melta/S10/chainfists (to kill enemy tanks)

Then, as an afterthought, you can see pinning as a component of the army.

Lets take your example of Harlies having to assault the Tacticals before they can reach the Sternguard. You hope that a Pinning volley from Rangers etc will paralyse the Sternguard for that crucial turn that your Harlies are in the open. With Ld9, this isn't likely, so your nightmare scenario of 'kill Tacticals, watch Harlies evaporate under Hellfire dakka' is probably what will occur.

However, if you assaulted both units with something (so Harlies on the Tactical, Striking Scorpions/Warp Spiders on the other), you could tie up/maul the Sternguard in a seperate combat, while your Harlequin stand around looking pretty. In this scenario, the Sternguard don't have the option to rapid-fire your Harlies to death, as they're in combat. In your turn however, you can 'Hit and Run' with the Warp Spiders/keep hacking away with the Scorpions, and assault the Harlies at another target in range (or even join in the Sternguard combat to finish it).

Co-ordinated assaults and shooting is what really makes or breaks armies these days, from my game experience. A lone assault unit will die, it's just a question of what it takes with it in the death throes.

masariel · 3 months ago

in my opinion is a good idea....with a lot of backup dreaming.. :)
Don't mean to be rude ....I had a 1500 army made with the same purpose of pinning galore..but it doesn't worth..really too many stuff around is Ld proof.
Beside..you can pin with warp spiders and swooping hawks exarchs too. ;)
..but DE IG and TAU are better at pinning..

Alex Thompkins · 3 months ago

I wanna here thoughts on Physic Choir based, Guard pinning army.

forcing pinning check on Ld 2 is quite nasty by anyone standards and guard need to prevent opponents getting in close quarters so it seems ideal _ the beauty of guard is they can be flexible enough to deal with fearless units/armies

3 choirs, hq command squad with snipers, vetern snipers for troops, then fill any points left with artrillery

viable?

absolutionis · 3 months ago

As with all pinning-based armies, you will have trouble with armor and fearless units. Chaos Space Marines and Daemons and Tyranids and Calgar-armies will tear through you.

BlackSly · 3 months ago

Well, "viable" as in "it can win". I wouldn't say it's a good idea.

The problem is that, like many other people who like Pinning, I view it as a "nice to have" ability, but not as the reason that you buy a unit. I don't get Ratling Sniper so that they can pin, I get them because they put out a good amount of wounds up to 36", with +1 to their Cover Saves, and ignoring enemy toughness (and FNP on a good roll) so they hurt MCs. If you're getting units or weapons JUST to pin, you will face many situations when they are useless (exception for the DE pin weapons that give LD penalties because they are just so good at pinning, and cheap vehicle upgrades to boot).

So, take 3 choirs because if you're facing Fearless units you're still putting out a S9 blast with great average AP. But the sniper weapons are just too expensive. You could do better, probably, with 2 choirs, 1 squad of Ratling Snipers, and a good amount of mortars (that put out more wounds than the rifles) in HWSs. That has the ability to put out a good amount of pinning, but also a good amount of wounds if you're facing stuff that is resistant to pinning. Also, don't overload on the mortar squads unless you're doing it for a theme, you will still need to have points for melta weapons and lascannons and autocannons, in order to break mechanized armies out of their crunchy outer shell so you can pin the nuts that were inside the box.

melissia · 3 months ago

Also remember that the Sisters' stubborn rule is not effected by modifiers for the purposes of pinning checks.

Lancks · 3 months ago

I use Laud Hailers on my Sister's Rhinos for this very purpose. Three rhinos charging 3 different targets will cause at least ONE to fall back, when they have -1 LD. Very handy, and more useful than a storm bolter :P.

melissia · 3 months ago

Or in larger points game, very useful WITH both storm bolters.

Moriartis · 3 months ago

My favorite moment using pinning was when i used the Deceivers ability(which can affect fearless units, btw) to pin a death company and it's chaplain from getting to me so i could spend the next turn gunning them to death. Ahh, the Deceiver is so fantastic.

ghost · 3 months ago

tau have got some of the best pinning gear in the game, about half my force carries somthing that can pin so i use them to plug stuff in place so my other units can kill it

another good strategy is to pin a unit in a choke point or in the path of one of your opponents other units/vehicles, it works but watch-out your opponent might just start throwing dice at you

now if only it wernt for that dam "and they shall know no fear rule"

Corpsed · 2 months ago

The thing is, most pinning weapons has a good chance to hurt a large critter or a light vehicle.

I always thought of this as a great anti LD and anti light vehicle balance. Great when spread thin. The army list is shockingly similar to one of my forces. 30 harlies with 40 pathfinders seeking refuge behind the veiled harlies for 2+ cover saves. I stack 40 shots on one unit coupled with doom and its dead. Or I spread the shots around to stop some guns from firing where possible and doom what the harlequins charge.

Nice article.

Yiannis Adamopoulos · 1 month ago

It is a nice concept albeit lacking a little mobility. Note that bikes turbo-boosting are immune to pinning