Honestly, I think conscript recycle is GREAT, but only in large point games where you ABSOLUTELY need a meat shield. Send them ahead of everyone else, often ignored or shot to death...then if your rear lines are threatened by say, deep striking terminators? Suddenly Conscripts! Lock those termies in close combat before they can deal much damage, allowing much precious needed turn or two to redeploy forces to deal with the threat...
but in smaller games, avoid conscripts like the plague.
K
· 4 months ago
I have only used the new codex once, but what I found is a big unit of conscripts behind barriers with a couple of smart russ's behind them make for a very effective flank guard/ table side add an officer unit behind or just to the side of them to work as a detachment (like the empire) to jump in with special weapons on CC oriented units and it should not be too hard to win combat, as long as someone in the deffending conscript unit has a deffensive grenade they can pretty easily hold their own until the next turn where the platoon commander or vet squad jumps in to remove attackers with better attacks, on the other half of the field was a vet squad two hellounds a pair of plasma demolishers and a small platoon of infantry with rocket launchers (the idea being the infantry squads could pop a light transport or two while they waited for aproaching enemies) my first game using the new codex was a striking success with an army picked with quite a bit of radimosity due to the fact that most of my IG are catachans tooled out for their old codex. {my list was a command squad, basic infantry platoon (2 squads + command, + huge unit of conscripts), one hard vet squad with demo charges plasma and some other special wep. I think, 2 hell hounds, 2 demolishers, 3 leman russ} * I also used to run an armored company
JFX
· 4 months ago
I run similar when it comes to armor, 2 Demolisher, 1 Executioner, and 2 russes w/ optional variant turrets. I have more than enough infantry to run a few conscripts and still keep platoons/specs/vets/HQs in the game.
mrphatman
· 4 months ago
ummmmmmmm........are u going to tell us the tatics about Al’Rahem? u said you'd skip him (FOR NOW) i'd like to hear them becouse i'm still not the greatest player and any help i can get can help. just wanted to tell u in case u forgot. and are u going 2 do more guard tatica? i am haveing horibel luck with them and need help. thx and keep up the good work
an angry jew
· 4 months ago
do you live in North Carolina by chance?
Skragger
· 4 months ago
I think he meant using Al'Rahem in a later tactica, as he is a fairly complex character to work properly.
---
· 4 months ago
lol there's no complexity in war40k. Try quantum mechanics now that's complex!
Lonesome George
· 4 months ago
is that supposed to be a pun? with all the complex variables? i h-bar d psi d t = h psi, ftw?
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Quantum mechanics is a piece of piss in comparison to arguing what counts as "adornment" on a Tau battle suit for terms of line of sight and cover saves.
Bloody stupid stating that only the arms, body, head and legs count for l.o.s. when half the models in the game have loads of little extra's attached to every part of them and they could be viewed as part of the body. Had some-one trying to argue that I couldn't draw line of sight to their Trygon the other week because it's torso was behind a skimmer!!! Apparently that huge thin that's the model is "standing" on is counted as a tail and thus is an "adornment".
I'll take Quantum and Theoretical physics any day of the week in comparison to arguing the toss with some gamers!
SamOfTheTribe
· 4 months ago
My basic line platoon that has served me very well is this:
Platoon HQ with 4 flamers and a chimera, 4 squads with grenade launchers, auto cannons, and a power weapon, melta-bombs on the sergeants, and a commissar with a power weapon in squads 1 and 3.
In most games I blob squads 1-2 and 3-4 to give me two 21 man stubborn LD 9 squads that can each put out 6 anti transport rounds a turn and with Iron-Hand nearby (he leads my 4 melta company command squad) they are actually painful for almost anything to charge short of a wraith lord. It's pretty pricey, but they have never let me down against a wide range of mostly "hard" orc, marine, eldar and csm lists. (Ironically they haven't been great against other guard, but those meltabombs help.)
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
Try dropping two meltas for two flamers in Straken's squad. It gives you a tad more flexibility. This load out has worked pretty good for me.
Tol
· 4 months ago
I prefer Grenade Launchers in both HQ & Special Weapons, but that´s a fine tactical shortcut; now just if to Chimera or not to.
Al´Rahem yeah... can be really tricky... or really useless as well. ; ]
I also like to have Plasma Pistols on Commissars; some Marine-players are horribly affraid of those... o.O
Spud
· 4 months ago
I'm going the all mech route. Company Command Squad, 2x Melta & a Chimera Platoon Command Squad 1, 1x Melta & a Chimera Infantry Squad 1A, 1 Melta & a Chimera Infantry Squad 1B, 1 Melta & a Chimera Platoon Command Squad 2, 1x Melta & a Chimera Infantry Squad 2A, 1 Melta & a Chimera Infantry Squad 2B, 1 Melta & a Chimera
That's like, 835pts.
Fill the rest with Hydra's, Hellhounds & Leman's. I personally like Pask in a Vanquisher with a hull lascannon. It's the sweetness.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
I'd love to tear your army apart. That sounds like 835 points not spent on good decisions.
Anon
· 4 months ago
I love when people make comments like this.
"My marines would eat through that!" "I wish I fought an army like that in the last GT, I would have come in 1st!" "That list wouldn't stand a chance against my orks!"
Shut up.
Until you play him/her with that list you have no idea how well it would function. You are only making a stupid assumption.
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
Actually, that is a solid list. I saw a similar list play last night and it did quite well.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
wow what a dumb statement. your forgetting that in a 1750 pt. list, he's got 900 plus points of elite, fast attack and heavy support left to bring, as his troops and hq are covered. Thats 900 pts. of pure nastiness to put on the table. and saying that mechanized troops are a bad decision is kinda silly, especially in 5th ed. 7 troop filled chimeras + 900 odd points of Leman Russes, Hellhounds (and variants), sentinals, etc......seems like a fun AND effective list to me.... I realize that whatever list you play is un-defeatable, but please, claiming you could tear apart someone else's army based on half a list is just retarted.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
grenade launchers are ineffective at killing priority targets and must be taken in triplicate at minimum. the infantry in the chimeras can't receive orders, bs3 dudes with one special weapon fail to take advantage of the 5 firing points in a massive way. Chimeras are for veterans who can tote 3 melta guns, flamers or grenade launchers... or basically anything good. I play mechanized quite often and understand quite well which units can take advantage of the chimera. Standard guardsmen don't.
Zapp
· 4 months ago
Dismount your infantry and then advance to contact using the afv's as mobile fire support and good solid cover. Tank shock the foemen out of cover and then lay in with las fire and finish off the survivors with bayonet and lasrifle stock.
= win
RTM
· 4 months ago
Actually this is a very strong build, although I'd add some flamers to the extra command squad special slots, and add HKs to those chimeras. When you have that many small vehicles, the HKs come into their own since they can't be neutralized quickly. Fire HKs at AV12 targets turn 1, use multilasers against the AV10s and meltas against the harder stuff. Against MEQ, especially if they hide in cover, you have a winning amount of APcrap shots flung out into their midst.
Kildash
· 4 months ago
actually, this daemon prince is a conversion they once made as Angron... It was in White Dwarf a long time ago. There IS however a new DP coming up, which can be seen in the planetstrike book on various pictures.
Kildash
· 4 months ago
oops... how did that comment get in this post? Weird... :)
Chaosgerbil
· 4 months ago
I don't understand your aversion to heavy weapons in infantry squads, they give some ablative wounds to your lascannons, etc. Objective grabbing can be done later in the game after the big threats are wiped out.
I'm putting mortars in my command squads, since I want to hide them anyways and it is only 5 points for a pinning blast template attack.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
So... that blob platoon with all the power weapons an the comissar and priest with straken near-by or creed within shouting distance is great, in it's own fearless point capturing way. Have any of you considered what's missing? The now shatty heavy weapons team that dies to str 6 shots! Bolb that 50 man squad! AND buy them 5 chimeras and 5 HW teams of your choice! Stuff the teams in the chimeras and you have the ultimate firebase spread across your backline that the IG always needed. I like to stuff 3 autocannon teams per chimera (in theory) across the backline and create more targets to distract my enemy. Yeah, IG still lose at KP. Not a big deal when you table your opponent every game.
weeble1000
· 4 months ago
It seems like putting hvy wep squads into transports would be a fiddley business. The transports would have to be dedicated to either your infantry squads or your platoon command squad. Because of that, you couldn't deploy the transports with the hvy wep squads embarked, so you would lose a turn of shooting embarking the squads.
Aside from that, firing heavy weapons from the top hatch of a chimera is okay by the rules, as far as I know, but I think it's a stretch for the rules as intended. I wouldn't feel right about sheltering three lascannon teams in a chimera while firing from the top hatch.
JFX
· 4 months ago
Actually, its not a stretch of the rules. The Chimera allows '5 models to fire out the top', it does not specify which weapons. You could do the same with a Storm Lord... load up as many heavy weapons into it, as it allows '20 models to fire out the top'
As for getting the HWeps into the Chimera?
One or two line blob squads. Behind them HWeps deployed right next to the Chimera. Turn 1 theyre in. Turn 2 the pain begins. One turn of those Hweps not supporting isn't all that bad... if you are not relying on them for hwep support.
weeble1000
· 4 months ago
Sure, by the rules as written you can fire three heavy weapons out of the top hatch. But, like I mentioned in my first comment, I think doing that goes beyond what the rules were intended to represent.
The Chimera has 5 fire points because it's got lasguns that can be operated from the inside. Now, I don't think its a big deal to assume that the lasgun bits are generic fire points, or however else you want to think of it to justify shooting weapons other than lasguns out of the top hatch.
However, I do think there's a big difference between shooting a shotgun, plasma gun, meltagun, or any of the other special weapons out of the top hatch and firing a lascannon or a mortar from inside a chimera.
My point is that it may be okay by the rules, but I personally wouldn't do it, because I don't think the rule was intended to represent three two man teams operating large, tripod-mounted weaponry from the firepoints in a transport.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
If thoose where 3 space marines firing out there would be no prob, so 3 guard hvy weapons also should be no prob
crazyredpraetorian
· 4 months ago
Do you really think that firing a heavy weapon out of the hatch hadn't occurred to the game designers? I think it was intended. It is too obvious to have been an oversight.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
@ Weeble1000
The Chimera no longer has Lasguns as its armament anymore.
So what lasguns are being operated from the inside? That was a previous edition ability of the Chimera which no longer exists.
Look at page 99. The Chimera simply does not have any lasguns anymore.
This is just a case of GW changing the rules of a model but ignoring what the model looks like, just like a Greater Demon in the Chaos book cannot fly, yet the model comes with wings if you are used to using the bloodthirster.
Most of the infantry is designed to be mobile, and I know it's not the best of lists so advice is welcome
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
I can add nothing more than, "you're doing it wrong." The rest is up to you.
Anon
· 4 months ago
Wow you are just everywhere aren't you? Like a cockroach.
limunpai
· 4 months ago
Unless you have a disdain for transports, get those officers in some Chimeras. The almost universally excepted command squad is 4xflamers, which is great since flamers come in plastic. I find that 4xgrenade Launchers firing out the top hatch along with a multi-laser and heavy bolter on the Chimera is pretty effective as well. As to the upgrades on the officers, they are generally ill advised, but they look cool, so I wouldn't fault you for taking them. I usually save the power weapons for my commisars and company commander through.
The Infantry squads need to be a more focused. The set ups I like are:
Autocannon and Grenade Launcher - cheap anti-transport Autocannon and Plasma - serious anti-transport Lascannon and Plasma - enough AP2 to kill hard targets Meltagun only - These guys are cheap and the meltagun is a large threat even on a BS3 model, since 1 shot can potentially kill any vehicle in the game besides the monolith. Not having a heavy weapon allows them to move up the field. Flamer only - Ultra cheap and the flamer gives them a little threat
The lascannon/grenade launcher squad is ineffective because they want to shoot at seperate targets most of the time.
Grenade Launcher only, I feel, doesn't serve much of a purpose because if you don't have a particularly good shot with the unit(melta, flamer, or double tap with lasguns), this unit should be running as fast as they can toward an objective most of the time. The grenade launcher just doesn't add enough to the unit to justify taking it, and it is certainly not as good a choice as the melta or flamer, which can both put a real hurting out.
Missile/grenade launcher both have strong and dispersed firing modes. This isn't a bad choice at all. They perform the same function as the autocannon/grenade launcher squads but can really take advantage of grouped up enemies.
If you are taking 6 infantry squads, you'll probably want to combine some of them. Because of this, I'd take a commisar with a power weapon and at least 2 squads and up to 4 squads in the same platoon with the same equipment so that they can combine and be issued very effective orders. Just choose the equipment you like the most and do it in triplicate in one platoon and make sure their officer can keep up with them for orders.
Kungfuhustler
· 4 months ago
okay... this is really bothering me. When did grenade launchers become good? 5pts vs. 8pts this is still the same p.o.s. weapon it has always been.
Andy
· 4 months ago
JUST KEEP TROLLIN' TROLLIN' TROLLIN'
0/10 You suck. Your troll fu is week.
Andy
· 4 months ago
weak*
Old_Paladin
· 4 months ago
grenade launchers became better in 5th, when the blast has to land somewhere, always (instead of only placed half the time), plus no more partial hits. they became good in the new dex with all the point drops (both the troops and the weapon). So, you're wrong, it's not the same weapon its always been. It's 2-3 times more effective, and 40% cheaper. Don't discount krak either. It'll auto kill T3, and can damage light vehicles. Grenades won't kill your guys like plasma, and outranges melta. Plus grenades are assault, meaning that they always have full effect on the move (unlike plasma). The need to move to take objectives means that most guard players plan to have many scoring units that can also be very moble (static gunlines aren't as effective in the new edition [unless you're Jwolf and can table your opponent]).
Chumbalaya
· 4 months ago
PCS-Like a CCS only with crappy orders. Use them for extra special or heavy weapons. Flamers+Chimera is lovely.
Al'Rahem-Trash. Outflanking units that aren't good in combat and should be shooting from turn 1 is brilliant.
Chenkov-Overpriced trash. You don't want to be stubborn unless you have a big blob unit (and then Commissars are cheaper and harder to kill). Stubborn means you don't break from combat, and that means your enemy is protected from your guns while he smashes up Guardsmen.
Infantry-Bread and butter. Either multiple small units with heavy weapons (much more survivable than HWS and better for orders) or blobs with power weapons, meltas and commissars. Cheap, surprisingly choppy, multiple meltas to threaten armor, and not going anywhere.
HWS-Autocannon spam or don't bother. They're extremely fragile and very poor at taking orders (unless you shell out for Kell or a Commissar lord, not worth it) so you need lots and need to keep them cheap. Autocannons knock out light vehicles and mess up infantry very well.
SWS-Crap. PCS is cheaper and better, Demo charges are overpriced.
Conscripts-Crap. Too expensive for truly worthless unit. Infantry aren't much more expensive and bring a lot to the table.
Infantry's strengths are their low cost and sheer numbers, so mounting up isn't going to do much for you (Vets are better at it). Great unit, especially if you build an army around them.
JL
· 4 months ago
In my junior officer squads I field 4 grenade launchers and I love them. I use them to boost the fire power of any infantry squad that Fails to kill its target that turn. Plus They can deliver 4 S6 shots over a 30" range (since the squad can still run. I find that the unit is often overlooked cause no one really cares about grenade launchers. I think of them and a more powerful, accurate, mobile, heavy bolter. which can still issue orders and claim objectives.
JL
· 4 months ago
Can still move* (not run)
mordiano
· 4 months ago
PLATOON HQ
I see tha point in having flamersz with theese guys, as a moblie reserve, perhaps sitting it out in a chimera giving orders.
I had a combo with 4 g launchers, that alows me to keep the squad moving and still be able to reach my targets. Not to mention that g launchers are quite cheap. Liutenant has p. weapon because of my model.
Q: Thoughts on medics and vox-casters??
Infantry Squads
I have meltas and rocket launchers in theese. Purpose of this is to fire frag missles with the infantry against lasgun targets and fire the occasional krak in some side armour as I have squads across the board. That keeps the enemy from advancing.
Meltas are also to there if vehicles get to close.
Heavy Weapons Squads
Im thinking about fielding 9 mortars screened by a huge squad of conscripts. That way I can have the mortars concealed while lobbing away. This would be quite cheap and some opponents might get overly interested in hunting down the shielded mortar teams.
Also I would want to include lascannon teams, but they do seem horribly fragile.
Special Weapons Squads
Meltas and plamas seem to work best in the HQ or vets. I guess flamers and bombs are best here. (oopps, already said). Dont think i´ll field any though.
Conscript Platoon
This choice is so cool! All the modeling/fluff options!! Plan to use it to hide mortars.
JFX
· 4 months ago
Yeah, I plan to do the same with my conscripts. A blob shield around my Colossus (usually behind terrain but never know when someone may flank) and mortars.
On Inf Squads, its how I do it to. I usually have a platoon dedicated to missile/ranged duty and spread them across the back of the map, usually in buildings and putting the missile as high as possible for best views. Works great.
If your game is big enough I recommend a 2nd platoon dedicated to moving-shooting, and not missiles, though.
Anonymous
· 4 months ago
Not to break up the flow here, but it looks like GW just posted Planetary Empires in their advanced orders section, no release date though...http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1280001&prodId=prod50017a
QBall78
· 4 months ago
A medic in a platoon HQ doesn't make much sense to me, because "ignore wounds" only works if the unit gets its armour save and the attackers weapons don't cause "instant Death" (it doesn't work with cover or invulnerable saves!). But only 18 weapons in the whole game have AP6 or worse (Lasguns and -pistols, frag-ammo, sniper rifles, etc. from different armies only counted once) and some of these even have S6 or higher. So if there's a use for a medic, I think it's only in a Company HQ with carapace-armour (and even then; for 20 pts you get a Lascannon or 2 meltas, something that shouldn't be wasted when you have Veterans with BS4).
According to vox-casters I like the idea (actually I use one in every Squad), but my current list is highly mechanised (couldn't resist playing Al'Rahem with two Squads and putting them all into chimeras for outflanking). So there's not many infantry left and most of the time they are out of range for orders anyway.
Maybe next time i'll skip them for some power weapons/fists or additional plasma-/meltaweapons.
Jedly
· 4 months ago
AP only matters if it is AP1 or AP2. It does not work when no save could EVER be taken, not when the model cant take a save.
QBall78
· 4 months ago
That was what I first hoped for. But just to make shure I called GW-rules-hotline and the guy there told me something different.
Nonetheless that doesn't has to mean anything, because when I take a look at my rulebook I can't find a word resembling "EVER". So it seems that GW is stumbling over it's own bad rulebook-translation into german (not the first time and probably not the last... I fear...).
Does it really say "EVER"? That leaves me some hope...
Morat
· 4 months ago
That is what it says. Rules hotlines are not crewed by studio staff, they're most commonly crewed by mail order trolls. Good for figuring out what bits you want. No better than "bloke in the pub" for rules interpretations. :)
105 points in all but if you must have plasma guns I'd rather they didn't kill themselves. That squad in cover is "Seer Council" tough. I suspect that a lot of people's PCS builds are based on previous edition prejudices (i.e. I have 4 flamers and a junior officer built and painted, I must now insist this is the best build rather than change it).
I guess I'll find out how my build performs in a couple of weeks. Will be sure to bring my "word fork" with me when I do...
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
Great start on the Platoon tactica.
I see no purpose for the Conscript squad that a combined Platoon cannot do better. A platoon model is just 1 point more than a conscript model, and you get +1 ws, +1bs, and +3 LD.
Stubborn is pretty moot since you will be doing it on a 5. For 35 points you can turn a platoon into a stubborn ld9 monster with morale rerolls. Seems much better.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
Thats 25% assuming you take no uppgrades... which u cant anyway with the conscripts.
Absorbing hits by incoming fire and CC... and fighting back reasonably similar in CC (getting hit on 3+ etc.)
Then there is also the "respawn" option....
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
25% isn't large at all to make sure a unit stays put and never runs away.
"Absorbing hits by incoming fire and CC... and fighting back reasonably similar in CC (getting hit on 3+ etc.)"
Same goes for Conscripts, which is the whole point as to why they are worthless. Platoon squad does a failed LD check at LD 9 with a Reroll. The Conscripts do so at LD 5.
And if you include the 75 point respawn option, both units cost roughly the same after you stick some power weapons in the platoon squad for added offense.
There just is no reason into taking conscripts at all that a platoon cannot do better.
mordiano
· 4 months ago
Ok, so I guess it's becoming increasingly claer that I just realy like the concept of conscripts!! But I wont give up that easy!
So now that you added 1pt to "uppgrade" conscripts to guardsmen, why not spend 2 to get them to be veterans?
Makes thoose heavy/special weapons (still at the same cost, mind you) so much more effective!!
Back to the conscripts: I think they are not realy up for ¨anything" without a LD bonus, chenkow, priests.. there are alternatives
Yegrov
· 4 months ago
Hello everyone, I’ve been reading the BoLS for quite some time now, and it has come time for my first post.
1. Platoon HQ
1.1.A very good special weapon platform- grenade launchers and flamers work quite well with this squad. 4 GL's work fine for me, since I have the squad running, hiding, and shooting at targets of opportunity. The best builds for an Platoon HQ on foot are either 4GL or 3GL+Flamer for more flexibility.
1.2.Other weapons are better left reserved for veterans who can actually hit their targets. Plasma guns are best left at home or in the hands of Inquisitor allies (Inq+3Plasma warriors+2Sages- for deep strike protection and more accurate shots, all this in a carapace armor package at a similar price).
2. Infantry Squad - "A man who has nothing can still give up his life"
2.1. Equipment The gear and weapons depends on the task you have in mind. My guardsmen are there basically to die- die buying time for the Big Guns. It’s not that I send them to their death’s- but the enemy at some point threatens the fire base and must be kept away. Usually this task falls to the simple troopers. 2.1.1. A IS with krak grenades costs 60 points, for just 70 one can have an Veteran Squad. If I’d wanted an close range AT squad I’d take veterans with 3 meltaguns. 2.1.2. Vox’es require an officer to be alive somewhere near. That’s why I don’t take them. These are HQ dependant assets. 2.1.3. Meltabomb for the Sarge? One bomb rarely makes a difference. Better to save the points for more meltaguns, sentinels or whatever.
2.2. A single special weapon and heavy weapons is a good compromise IMHO between cheapness and combat effectiveness. No more equipment is necessary. The IS can lay down some fire before it will be mauled by the enemy. I try to make good use of lasguns, so I use the infantry squads mainly for anti-infantry role. IMO the most interesting weapons combinations are: 2.2.1. Autocannon+ GL – this combination can be used to either fight infantry or light vehicles. 2.2.2. Heavy Bolter+ Sniper rifle – a pure anti-infantry setup - cheap and can occasionally pin the enemy down. 2.2.3. Infantry Lite- equipped with just a GL, or a flamer. 2.2.4. Mortar- is a cheap weapon that can prove effective, when you use your tanks as screen for the infantry, and then later make a switch and the infantry goes forth to protect the tanks.
2.3. Meltaguns and Plasma guns the trouble with these is they are expensive and don’t really fit well with lasguns. There are better platforms for these weapons then the IS.
3. Special Weapons Squad
“For the ruination of the Emperor’s foes, I commit your body and soul for battle, Strike down those that oppose His divine will, Go forth and lay the blood of our enemies At the Emperor’s feet. - The Litany of Demolition,
3.1. The Cons. Effectively a more expensive Platoon HQ, with a worse Ld, without orders, less special weapons (isn’t’ this a paradox?), and without the possibility to buy them a chimera.
3.2. The Pros. Why take one? Well the answer is simple – demolition charges! The 6”range of the DC makes the flamer the only reasonable choice to combine it with. These units need a some kind of a transport to survive. Either a borrowed Chimera or a Valkyrie or Vendetta. I like to mix 2:1 or 1:2, flamers with demo-charges. If mounted in a chimera this will usually serve as a counter-attacking unit.
4. Heavy Weapons Squad I really don’t see a good reason to use them, here’s why;
4.1. In general HWS are very vulnerable and can’t move and fire. They either won’t see the enemy, or the enemy will set them as an priority target and quickly eliminate. Putting them in a chimera costs just more
4.2 In specific 4.2.1. Mortar Squads- the Griffon (if you have the slot) is more powerful (it even kills other HWS outright!), accurate, causes a -1 Ld penalty for pinning, can usually take more punishment, and has an extra weapon. All this at +15pts extra. 4.2.2. Heavy Bolter Squad- the infantry squads usually already have enough anti-infantry firepower. If they don’t then additional chimeras with HB’s and Mulitlasers will perform the same role as this squad, on the move. Plus they perform all the roles of infantry transport and medium tank. 4.2.3. Autocannon Squad- they have the competition in form of Sentinels. The Auto-HWS has some price advantage over the sentinels, but it is not as flexible as they are. 4.2.4. Missile Launchers- do I have to explain? 4.2.5. Lascannon Squad – it costs 105pts whereas the Vendetta costs 130 has better accuracy, can deny the enemy cover and strike at rear or side armor. Again the Vendetta is much more flexible, at just a few points more.
5. Conscripts. 5.1. The smallest unit is still more expensive then the smallest IS unit, so they aren’t the best sacrificial unit in the platoon points-wise. The low Ld, forces the use of some IC’s to keep them standing their ground. Considering this they become expensive. Vanilla Infantry Squads can take care of themselves, Conscripts can’t. 5.2. They can’t be divided into individual squads, so you are basically stuck with what you bought. A single large unit is often a liability 5.3. Lasgun wave tactic is more effective with combined IS then Conscripts due to poor BS of the later. All this for just a 1 point per model difference.
6.Chimera The power horse if the IG. The uses are numerous: 1)Covering the tanks and artillery 2)Providing cheap anti- infantry fire power, including the really cheap heavy flamers 3)Herding the enemy with tank shocks, and thus reading them for burning or some point blank ordinance shots (if you are ready to risk the lives of the chimera crew). 4)Covering the infantry from massed anti-infantry fire, if the enemy has a superiority in this matter. For these uses and more I find that a 1:2 Chimeras to infantry ratio is a good one.
little brother
· 4 months ago
Does anyone use 3 sniper rifles in a specila weapons squad. I would love to do it because I like the cadian sniper models and is fluffy with my armies background. But are they any good? Would it improve things if I took 2 special weapons squads both equiped with sniper rifles? Opinions please.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
Just take 3 Ratling snipers. They are better in every way. Unless the issue is that you already used up your elite slots. If so, just give your company command squad a bunch of sniper rifles.
The only real, unique use for a special weapon squad is their ability to mass up on demo charges.
kaptin scuzgob
· 4 months ago
My Traitor Guard army consists of: 1 Apostate Preacher with Power Scourge (Lord Commissar with power sword) 6 units of Renegades (Penal Legion Troopers Squads!) Its like Top Gear: ambitious but rubbish.
kaptin scuzgob
· 4 months ago
Oh yeah. Conscript Mobs can be so huge that if you surround an objective with them there's no way your opponent can get within the 3" contested range without taking a few turns to chew through them.
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
Just remember, even at 50 strong, it only takes killing, what, 11 or 12 of them from shooting or a few casualties in CC to make them run away on their awesome LD of 5.
For a few points more, you can have 50 guardsmen with ld 9 an morale rerolls.
Just a thought.
Old_Paladin
· 4 months ago
A few sniper shots, one lobba shell, some tau marker lights, and that 50 man unit is face down for the game (or needs a babysitter HQ!). Don't forget, if they lose in CC, their leadership is also going to be reduced. So they'll have at best Ld:4! But you're right, 150 points of anything with good melee will get through them in one round (Scorpions, Boyz, Blood Claws, even Kroot!).
That, or you'll have to spend a bunch of extra points on characters, etc. to boost the unit (and then you're talking about spending 300+ points for daisy pickers).
Conrad
· 4 months ago
Simples....Land Speeder storm, 5 CC scouts with a serg and power weapon.
They've only gotta kill 5 guard and have 1 guy left alive at the end of combat to give the guard a Ld 6 test to not run....and considering the I of a scout is higher, those guys are gonna need to be lucky not to be toasted by the outflanking little skimmer.
weeble1000
· 4 months ago
Even if you surround an objective, it only stops the first assaulting squad from coming within three inches. Once the unit is assaulted, you're going to swiftly pile in and open up the objective.
I've found it to be an okay tactic if you beef the squad with Lord Commissar, but that's a big point investment for a 2-3 assault phase tar pit. Plus, the conscripts can't be upgraded, so a single walker can suck the whole squad off of an objective and lock it in CC for the rest of the game. You can beat that problem with Send in the Next Wave, but again, that's a big point investment.
Conscripts look attractive because they are cheap, but I've found that you have to put a lot of points into the squad to keep the unit viable. I've found a platoon with 5 infantry squads to be much more flexible.
All Comments
but in smaller games, avoid conscripts like the plague.
Bloody stupid stating that only the arms, body, head and legs count for l.o.s. when half the models in the game have loads of little extra's attached to every part of them and they could be viewed as part of the body. Had some-one trying to argue that I couldn't draw line of sight to their Trygon the other week because it's torso was behind a skimmer!!! Apparently that huge thin that's the model is "standing" on is counted as a tail and thus is an "adornment".
I'll take Quantum and Theoretical physics any day of the week in comparison to arguing the toss with some gamers!
Platoon HQ with 4 flamers and a chimera, 4 squads with grenade launchers, auto cannons, and a power weapon, melta-bombs on the sergeants, and a commissar with a power weapon in squads 1 and 3.
In most games I blob squads 1-2 and 3-4 to give me two 21 man stubborn LD 9 squads that can each put out 6 anti transport rounds a turn and with Iron-Hand nearby (he leads my 4 melta company command squad) they are actually painful for almost anything to charge short of a wraith lord. It's pretty pricey, but they have never let me down against a wide range of mostly "hard" orc, marine, eldar and csm lists. (Ironically they haven't been great against other guard, but those meltabombs help.)
but that´s a fine tactical shortcut; now just if to Chimera or not to.
Al´Rahem yeah... can be really tricky... or really useless as well. ; ]
I also like to have Plasma Pistols on Commissars;
some Marine-players are horribly affraid of those... o.O
Company Command Squad, 2x Melta & a Chimera
Platoon Command Squad 1, 1x Melta & a Chimera
Infantry Squad 1A, 1 Melta & a Chimera
Infantry Squad 1B, 1 Melta & a Chimera
Platoon Command Squad 2, 1x Melta & a Chimera
Infantry Squad 2A, 1 Melta & a Chimera
Infantry Squad 2B, 1 Melta & a Chimera
That's like, 835pts.
Fill the rest with Hydra's, Hellhounds & Leman's.
I personally like Pask in a Vanquisher with a hull lascannon.
It's the sweetness.
"My marines would eat through that!"
"I wish I fought an army like that in the last GT, I would have come in 1st!"
"That list wouldn't stand a chance against my orks!"
Shut up.
Until you play him/her with that list you have no idea how well it would function. You are only making a stupid assumption.
your forgetting that in a 1750 pt. list, he's got 900 plus points of elite, fast attack and heavy support left to bring, as his troops and hq are covered.
Thats 900 pts. of pure nastiness to put on the table.
and saying that mechanized troops are a bad decision is kinda silly, especially in 5th ed. 7 troop filled chimeras + 900 odd points of Leman Russes, Hellhounds (and variants), sentinals, etc......seems like a fun AND effective list to me....
I realize that whatever list you play is un-defeatable, but please, claiming you could tear apart someone else's army based on half a list is just retarted.
the infantry in the chimeras can't receive orders,
bs3 dudes with one special weapon fail to take advantage of the 5 firing points in a massive way. Chimeras are for veterans who can tote 3 melta guns, flamers or grenade launchers... or basically anything good. I play mechanized quite often and understand quite well which units can take advantage of the chimera. Standard guardsmen don't.
= win
I'm putting mortars in my command squads, since I want to hide them anyways and it is only 5 points for a pinning blast template attack.
Aside from that, firing heavy weapons from the top hatch of a chimera is okay by the rules, as far as I know, but I think it's a stretch for the rules as intended. I wouldn't feel right about sheltering three lascannon teams in a chimera while firing from the top hatch.
As for getting the HWeps into the Chimera?
One or two line blob squads. Behind them HWeps deployed right next to the Chimera. Turn 1 theyre in. Turn 2 the pain begins. One turn of those Hweps not supporting isn't all that bad... if you are not relying on them for hwep support.
The Chimera has 5 fire points because it's got lasguns that can be operated from the inside. Now, I don't think its a big deal to assume that the lasgun bits are generic fire points, or however else you want to think of it to justify shooting weapons other than lasguns out of the top hatch.
However, I do think there's a big difference between shooting a shotgun, plasma gun, meltagun, or any of the other special weapons out of the top hatch and firing a lascannon or a mortar from inside a chimera.
My point is that it may be okay by the rules, but I personally wouldn't do it, because I don't think the rule was intended to represent three two man teams operating large, tripod-mounted weaponry from the firepoints in a transport.
The Chimera no longer has Lasguns as its armament anymore.
So what lasguns are being operated from the inside? That was a previous edition ability of the Chimera which no longer exists.
Look at page 99. The Chimera simply does not have any lasguns anymore.
This is just a case of GW changing the rules of a model but ignoring what the model looks like, just like a Greater Demon in the Chaos book cannot fly, yet the model comes with wings if you are used to using the bloodthirster.
Junior Officer, (Power Weapon + Plasma Pistol,) 3 Flamers, Vox
Infantry Squad, Lascannon, Grenade Launcher, Vox
Infantry Squad, Grenade Launcher, Vox
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Vox
Junior Officer, (Power Fist,) Meltagun, Plasmagun, Vox
Infantry Squad, Missile Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Vox
Infantry Squad, Grenade Launcher, Vox
Infantry Squad, Flamer, Vox
Most of the infantry is designed to be mobile, and I know it's not the best of lists so advice is welcome
The Infantry squads need to be a more focused. The set ups I like are:
Autocannon and Grenade Launcher - cheap anti-transport
Autocannon and Plasma - serious anti-transport
Lascannon and Plasma - enough AP2 to kill hard targets
Meltagun only - These guys are cheap and the meltagun is a large threat even on a BS3 model, since 1 shot can potentially kill any vehicle in the game besides the monolith. Not having a heavy weapon allows them to move up the field.
Flamer only - Ultra cheap and the flamer gives them a little threat
The lascannon/grenade launcher squad is ineffective because they want to shoot at seperate targets most of the time.
Grenade Launcher only, I feel, doesn't serve much of a purpose because if you don't have a particularly good shot with the unit(melta, flamer, or double tap with lasguns), this unit should be running as fast as they can toward an objective most of the time. The grenade launcher just doesn't add enough to the unit to justify taking it, and it is certainly not as good a choice as the melta or flamer, which can both put a real hurting out.
Missile/grenade launcher both have strong and dispersed firing modes. This isn't a bad choice at all. They perform the same function as the autocannon/grenade launcher squads but can really take advantage of grouped up enemies.
If you are taking 6 infantry squads, you'll probably want to combine some of them. Because of this, I'd take a commisar with a power weapon and at least 2 squads and up to 4 squads in the same platoon with the same equipment so that they can combine and be issued very effective orders. Just choose the equipment you like the most and do it in triplicate in one platoon and make sure their officer can keep up with them for orders.
0/10 You suck. Your troll fu is week.
they became good in the new dex with all the point drops (both the troops and the weapon).
So, you're wrong, it's not the same weapon its always been. It's 2-3 times more effective, and 40% cheaper.
Don't discount krak either. It'll auto kill T3, and can damage light vehicles.
Grenades won't kill your guys like plasma, and outranges melta. Plus grenades are assault, meaning that they always have full effect on the move (unlike plasma).
The need to move to take objectives means that most guard players plan to have many scoring units that can also be very moble (static gunlines aren't as effective in the new edition [unless you're Jwolf and can table your opponent]).
Al'Rahem-Trash. Outflanking units that aren't good in combat and should be shooting from turn 1 is brilliant.
Chenkov-Overpriced trash. You don't want to be stubborn unless you have a big blob unit (and then Commissars are cheaper and harder to kill). Stubborn means you don't break from combat, and that means your enemy is protected from your guns while he smashes up Guardsmen.
Infantry-Bread and butter. Either multiple small units with heavy weapons (much more survivable than HWS and better for orders) or blobs with power weapons, meltas and commissars. Cheap, surprisingly choppy, multiple meltas to threaten armor, and not going anywhere.
HWS-Autocannon spam or don't bother. They're extremely fragile and very poor at taking orders (unless you shell out for Kell or a Commissar lord, not worth it) so you need lots and need to keep them cheap. Autocannons knock out light vehicles and mess up infantry very well.
SWS-Crap. PCS is cheaper and better, Demo charges are overpriced.
Conscripts-Crap. Too expensive for truly worthless unit. Infantry aren't much more expensive and bring a lot to the table.
Infantry's strengths are their low cost and sheer numbers, so mounting up isn't going to do much for you (Vets are better at it). Great unit, especially if you build an army around them.
I see tha point in having flamersz with theese guys, as a moblie reserve, perhaps sitting it out in a chimera giving orders.
I had a combo with 4 g launchers, that alows me to keep the squad moving and still be able to reach my targets. Not to mention that g launchers are quite cheap. Liutenant has p. weapon because of my model.
Q: Thoughts on medics and vox-casters??
Infantry Squads
I have meltas and rocket launchers in theese. Purpose of this is to fire frag missles with the infantry against lasgun targets and fire the occasional krak in some side armour as I have squads across the board. That keeps the enemy from advancing.
Meltas are also to there if vehicles get to close.
Heavy Weapons Squads
Im thinking about fielding 9 mortars screened by a huge squad of conscripts. That way I can have the mortars concealed while lobbing away. This would be quite cheap and some opponents might get overly interested in hunting down the shielded mortar teams.
Also I would want to include lascannon teams, but they do seem horribly fragile.
Special Weapons Squads
Meltas and plamas seem to work best in the HQ or vets. I guess flamers and bombs are best here. (oopps, already said). Dont think i´ll field any though.
Conscript Platoon
This choice is so cool! All the modeling/fluff options!! Plan to use it to hide mortars.
On Inf Squads, its how I do it to. I usually have a platoon dedicated to missile/ranged duty and spread them across the back of the map, usually in buildings and putting the missile as high as possible for best views. Works great.
If your game is big enough I recommend a 2nd platoon dedicated to moving-shooting, and not missiles, though.
According to vox-casters I like the idea (actually I use one in every Squad), but my current list is highly mechanised (couldn't resist playing Al'Rahem with two Squads and putting them all into chimeras for outflanking). So there's not many infantry left and most of the time they are out of range for orders anyway.
Maybe next time i'll skip them for some power weapons/fists or additional plasma-/meltaweapons.
Nonetheless that doesn't has to mean anything, because when I take a look at my rulebook I can't find a word resembling "EVER". So it seems that GW is stumbling over it's own bad rulebook-translation into german (not the first time and probably not the last... I fear...).
Does it really say "EVER"? That leaves me some hope...
When I get around to it, my PCS will be:
Officer + Plasma Pistol and CCW
Vox
Medic
2x Plasma gun
105 points in all but if you must have plasma guns I'd rather they didn't kill themselves. That squad in cover is "Seer Council" tough. I suspect that a lot of people's PCS builds are based on previous edition prejudices (i.e. I have 4 flamers and a junior officer built and painted, I must now insist this is the best build rather than change it).
I guess I'll find out how my build performs in a couple of weeks. Will be sure to bring my "word fork" with me when I do...
I see no purpose for the Conscript squad that a combined Platoon cannot do better. A platoon model is just 1 point more than a conscript model, and you get +1 ws, +1bs, and +3 LD.
Stubborn is pretty moot since you will be doing it on a 5. For 35 points you can turn a platoon into a stubborn ld9 monster with morale rerolls. Seems much better.
Absorbing hits by incoming fire and CC... and fighting back reasonably similar in CC (getting hit on 3+ etc.)
Then there is also the "respawn" option....
"Absorbing hits by incoming fire and CC... and fighting back reasonably similar in CC (getting hit on 3+ etc.)"
Same goes for Conscripts, which is the whole point as to why they are worthless. Platoon squad does a failed LD check at LD 9 with a Reroll. The Conscripts do so at LD 5.
And if you include the 75 point respawn option, both units cost roughly the same after you stick some power weapons in the platoon squad for added offense.
There just is no reason into taking conscripts at all that a platoon cannot do better.
So now that you added 1pt to "uppgrade" conscripts to guardsmen, why not spend 2 to get them to be veterans?
Makes thoose heavy/special weapons (still at the same cost, mind you) so much more effective!!
Back to the conscripts: I think they are not realy up for ¨anything" without a LD bonus, chenkow, priests.. there are alternatives
1. Platoon HQ
1.1.A very good special weapon platform- grenade launchers and flamers work quite well with this squad.
4 GL's work fine for me, since I have the squad running, hiding, and shooting at targets of opportunity. The best builds for an Platoon HQ on foot are either 4GL or 3GL+Flamer for more flexibility.
1.2.Other weapons are better left reserved for veterans who can actually hit their targets.
Plasma guns are best left at home or in the hands of Inquisitor allies (Inq+3Plasma warriors+2Sages- for deep strike protection and more accurate shots, all this in a carapace armor package at a similar price).
2. Infantry Squad - "A man who has nothing can still give up his life"
2.1. Equipment
The gear and weapons depends on the task you have in mind. My guardsmen are there basically to die- die buying time for the Big Guns. It’s not that I send them to their death’s- but the enemy at some point threatens the fire base and must be kept away. Usually this task falls to the simple troopers.
2.1.1. A IS with krak grenades costs 60 points, for just 70 one can have an Veteran Squad. If I’d wanted an close range AT squad I’d take veterans with 3 meltaguns.
2.1.2. Vox’es require an officer to be alive somewhere near. That’s why I don’t take them. These are HQ dependant assets.
2.1.3. Meltabomb for the Sarge? One bomb rarely makes a difference. Better to save the points for more meltaguns, sentinels or whatever.
2.2. A single special weapon and heavy weapons is a good compromise IMHO between cheapness and combat effectiveness. No more equipment is necessary. The IS can lay down some fire before it will be mauled by the enemy. I try to make good use of lasguns, so I use the infantry squads mainly for anti-infantry role.
IMO the most interesting weapons combinations are:
2.2.1. Autocannon+ GL – this combination can be used to either fight infantry or light vehicles.
2.2.2. Heavy Bolter+ Sniper rifle – a pure anti-infantry setup - cheap and can occasionally pin the enemy down.
2.2.3. Infantry Lite- equipped with just a GL, or a flamer.
2.2.4. Mortar- is a cheap weapon that can prove effective, when you use your tanks as screen for the infantry, and then later make a switch and the infantry goes forth to protect the tanks.
2.3. Meltaguns and Plasma guns the trouble with these is they are expensive and don’t really fit well with lasguns. There are better platforms for these weapons then the IS.
3. Special Weapons Squad
“For the ruination of the Emperor’s foes,
I commit your body and soul for battle,
Strike down those that oppose His divine will,
Go forth and lay the blood of our enemies
At the Emperor’s feet.
- The Litany of Demolition,
3.1. The Cons. Effectively a more expensive Platoon HQ, with a worse Ld, without orders, less special weapons (isn’t’ this a paradox?), and without the possibility to buy them a chimera.
3.2. The Pros. Why take one? Well the answer is simple – demolition charges! The 6”range of the DC makes the flamer the only reasonable choice to combine it with. These units need a some kind of a transport to survive. Either a borrowed Chimera or a Valkyrie or Vendetta.
I like to mix 2:1 or 1:2, flamers with demo-charges. If mounted in a chimera this will usually serve as a counter-attacking unit.
4. Heavy Weapons Squad
I really don’t see a good reason to use them, here’s why;
4.1. In general HWS are very vulnerable and can’t move and fire. They either won’t see the enemy, or the enemy will set them as an priority target and quickly eliminate. Putting them in a chimera costs just more
4.2 In specific
4.2.1. Mortar Squads- the Griffon (if you have the slot) is more powerful (it even kills other HWS outright!), accurate, causes a -1 Ld penalty for pinning, can usually take more punishment, and has an extra weapon. All this at +15pts extra.
4.2.2. Heavy Bolter Squad- the infantry squads usually already have enough anti-infantry firepower. If they don’t then additional chimeras with HB’s and Mulitlasers will perform the same role as this squad, on the move. Plus they perform all the roles of infantry transport and medium tank.
4.2.3. Autocannon Squad- they have the competition in form of Sentinels. The Auto-HWS has some price advantage over the sentinels, but it is not as flexible as they are.
4.2.4. Missile Launchers- do I have to explain?
4.2.5. Lascannon Squad – it costs 105pts whereas the Vendetta costs 130 has better accuracy, can deny the enemy cover and strike at rear or side armor. Again the Vendetta is much more flexible, at just a few points more.
5. Conscripts.
5.1. The smallest unit is still more expensive then the smallest IS unit, so they aren’t the best sacrificial unit in the platoon points-wise. The low Ld, forces the use of some IC’s to keep them standing their ground. Considering this they become expensive.
Vanilla Infantry Squads can take care of themselves, Conscripts can’t.
5.2. They can’t be divided into individual squads, so you are basically stuck with what you bought. A single large unit is often a liability
5.3. Lasgun wave tactic is more effective with combined IS then Conscripts due to poor BS of the later.
All this for just a 1 point per model difference.
6.Chimera
The power horse if the IG. The uses are numerous:
1)Covering the tanks and artillery
2)Providing cheap anti- infantry fire power, including the really cheap heavy flamers
3)Herding the enemy with tank shocks, and thus reading them for burning or some point blank ordinance shots (if you are ready to risk the lives of the chimera crew).
4)Covering the infantry from massed anti-infantry fire, if the enemy has a superiority in this matter.
For these uses and more I find that a 1:2 Chimeras to infantry ratio is a good one.
The only real, unique use for a special weapon squad is their ability to mass up on demo charges.
1 Apostate Preacher with Power Scourge (Lord Commissar with power sword)
6 units of Renegades (Penal Legion Troopers Squads!)
Its like Top Gear: ambitious but rubbish.
For a few points more, you can have 50 guardsmen with ld 9 an morale rerolls.
Just a thought.
Don't forget, if they lose in CC, their leadership is also going to be reduced. So they'll have at best Ld:4!
But you're right, 150 points of anything with good melee will get through them in one round (Scorpions, Boyz, Blood Claws, even Kroot!).
That, or you'll have to spend a bunch of extra points on characters, etc. to boost the unit (and then you're talking about spending 300+ points for daisy pickers).
They've only gotta kill 5 guard and have 1 guy left alive at the end of combat to give the guard a Ld 6 test to not run....and considering the I of a scout is higher, those guys are gonna need to be lucky not to be toasted by the outflanking little skimmer.
I've found it to be an okay tactic if you beef the squad with Lord Commissar, but that's a big point investment for a 2-3 assault phase tar pit. Plus, the conscripts can't be upgraded, so a single walker can suck the whole squad off of an objective and lock it in CC for the rest of the game. You can beat that problem with Send in the Next Wave, but again, that's a big point investment.
Conscripts look attractive because they are cheap, but I've found that you have to put a lot of points into the squad to keep the unit viable. I've found a platoon with 5 infantry squads to be much more flexible.
Well done.