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Yeah, but your arrogance brought into being a dark god that now waits to feast on your souls. Your empire is a thing of the past, you are a scattered and dying race. We have nothing left to fear from you, you are nothing more than a minor irritation. Enjoy.
-disclaimer-the preceding statement was a mere expression of one opinion. no offense was intended and should not be read as an invitation to a thousand eldar players to tell him how many games they've won recently.
Yeah, but your arrogance brought into being a dark god that now waits to feast on your souls. Your empire is a thing of the past, you are a scattered and dying race. We have nothing left to fear from you, you are nothing more than a minor irritation. Enjoy.
- And that is why I stopped playing Eldar. Cause in 5th edition they are really a dying race that is no more than a minor irritation.
Anyone facing Eldar (not being a complete newbie) knows what starcannons are capable of, and would never press forward into open spaces unless they are attempting to draw your attention away from something else. Eldar has more than enough low AP firepower to eliminate any units on the board, but cover saves can be our nemesis. To just assume that running in close to an opponent will draw them out of cover is definitly a HUGE optimistic assumption.
I'd rather pound shots into the side of the building from 30-36 inches away, and force my opponent to make massive amounts of cover saves. Multiple shots will overcome low cover and armor saves any day. To many people get wrapped up in high strength, low AP, single shot weapons. In the long run, you'll get just as many, if not more kills with a high strength, high AP weapon. Anyone who says a Scatter Laser is worthless hasnt played one enough. It is STR 6 with 4 shots.. what is NOT to love?!?!
If anyone needs cover saves, it is Eldar. Running up close to a building, popping a few shots through the windows, and assuming the unit will move forward - OUT OF COVER - just for a rapid fire shot is hilarious and suicidal.
'I lost 162 pts in Dire Avengers, but at least I killed 60 pts worth of Marines with my Star Cannons afterwards'.
Use a Farseer to guide 'em and if you don't wipe out full marine units in one round, you'll maul 'em seriously more often than not.
I don't know about anyone else's games, but in mine there's generally enough terrain on the table that any units not in a transport are in cover.
Plus, there's the enjoyment and satisfaction that comes when you're opponent is forced to make 16, 18 or even 22+ armor/cover saves from one round of shooting from one unit.
It's even sweeter when they fail enough saves that the unit is entirely wiped out. Sometimes you can break your opponents spirits and cause them to mentally give up.
There's a certain Machiavellian feeling of satisfaction whenever that occurs.
Enjoyed the article Fritz, definitely keep 'em coming!
What player is going to do that? "Hmm, yes, those jetbikes are 17" away. I will leave my 3+/4+ cover saves and begin a chase, abandoning this objective I need to win the game." Don't forget that if the Eldar player is placing the objective in open terrain then the marine player is also placing half of the mission objectives in places advantageous to him! None of this happens in a vacuum!
For my buck I think scatter lasers are far more in line with 5th edition, cheaper and higher rate of fire means reliability. I don't play Eldar however, so YMMV
Seriously though, if someone knows my army and theirs equally well (Like I donno, regularly playing against them or being Eldar as well?) these tricks never work.
Fritz - It's better to put down tactics you have tried against regular opponents, not new people, thank you.
While I haven't gone to a tourney myself, I have played many tourney goers and have a fairly even record with them. The guys that beat me down into the ground ask questions, know their foe, and use much more solid tactics than banking on me not knowing something, and that's what I'm trying to argue.
Solid tactics and backup plans > Hoping my opponent has a flaw.
I'm not advocating not telling them what is in your list or what it does. That is 100% given and called being a good player. I'm also not talking about using rules or lack of them to catch your opponent. I'm talking about presenting them with choices or threads through the game that are not in their best interests and then using that when they act on it. As I said, I'm going to write more about this idea, and hopefully be less cryptic it my next article- already started it...
Oh, and I do appreciate the comments, all of them. It helps me to see if I am getting my point across, or even a another, perhaps better point of view. I'm putting myself out there to learn also, so comment away!
Marine players aren't all dumb, but the fact that most new players play marines means we get a reputation for being poor tacticians...
My guard also laugh at your plasma... Oh no u took away my 5+sv
and there are still 30 of us standing here. However my general tactics is 2 vendettas with plasma toting vets and a third with 3detpacks special weapons. The vendettas concetrating on blowing open a landraider full of termies then the vets do the rest. droping 20guard with bs4 within rapid fire of a marine players front line on turn 1 makes them cry... especially when 12shots forget they have armour :P
BS4?
Gee, why not give them a S10, AP1, 72" range main gun that can fire a S6 large blast instead?
And how about some kind of detachable unit that has... I dunno... 6ish S5 shots?
Yes. Yes, you just described the Hammerhead.
C'mon...if you're gonna be "first" at least provide something of context to the article that's being published...
On a side note...I love the StarCannon but for only 2 shots at BS3 most times for 25 points on Vypers, I just find them too pricey for what they bring at the moment. I currently load out with Shuriken Cannons and Missile Launchers on my Vypers and, while they don't bring the AP2 or Str6, they bring enough hits with lower strength (better odds for the template to hit) at AP4 or those nice Str 8 shots for popping tanks from 48". Couple the Cannons with the Plasma missile and you can move 12" and fire all weapons giving you a lot of saves for your opponent to take...cover or no cover.
StarCannons....Str6 AP2....I'd love to take them but right now, they just ain't worth the points.
I'll take 3 War Walkers equipped with 2 Scatter Lasers each over Vypers any day.
i liked the suggestion of going back to a thread 2 weeks later and posting "last!" hahaha
so anyways, starcannons are gay. AP doesnt matter anymore (except for AP1 lol), number of shots are poor, bs for most models using it is poor, too expensive.
Must admit in all my years of playing eldar ive avoided star cannons due to the cost, and found the sneak shot not very rewarding. Eldar mobility and range really strengthen this tactic and its definatly viable, will give it a go soon!
Think with other armies such as Marines with plasma guns wont work as effectivly as they lack range and everyone knows what a plasma gun looks like ;)
That and weapons platforms are rather sluggish.
all in all, a fun toy, but I can only play my eldar for so long before I have to go back to my tau.
That's the idea.
I highly doubt you could do enough to prevent a 4 man missile dev squad getting shots back and bagging the Vypers with ease. Odd's again for a 4 missile Dev squad (even with cover saves for the Vypers) give you 3 hits and 2 pens and a 1 failed cover which, with being open topped, is most likely gonna destroy or render the Vyper useless. A roll of 2+ on a pen hit is enough to get rid of the Cannon, immobilize (and thus destroy) or our right destroy a Vyper.
For 150 pt, I can get 4 missiles in a 5 man dev squad....so for the points of 5 Vypers....I can get 8 missiles a turn at a longer range than the Vypers with better odds of killing them than they have of killing me....and still have 70pt spare for extra marines and thus more wounds in the squads.
As I said in my post above....Vyper with Starcannon is too expensive in 5th ed to be worth while. A missile launcher and cannon is only 5pt more at 75 a model but gives more Str6 shots (and with cover being prominent the 3+ armour isn't much better than 4+ cover against StarCannon) and it also gives you a missile of Krak or Plasma origin....not to mention the extra range that the missile gives you for long range Rhino hunting etc.
I think I'll stick with my present loud out until the new codex and thus cheaper Eldar.
A great deal of my opponents are Space Marines and if they're running non-storm shield termies, they're great for taking them down (along with Tau suits).
Also, taking them forces your opponent to use cover or die and I like that. You can sometimes use that to your advantage as Fritz points out (placing capture points out in the open, tank shocking units out into the open, etc).
That said, that Warlock has done some pretty amazing things.
It is *possible* that you can lose the cannon at the very end, but it will most likely happen just after the middle.
However....At over 100pt for T3, 5+ sv with a cannon and Warlock...I'd not be too tempted to take them just for the Cannon when you can take the Vyper for less points.
As a constructive post, I'd have to say the reduction from 3 to 2 shots is a pretty big nerf on the starcannon. I don't even play Eldar (I prefer their overly pointy cousins, myself) I miss the days when the sight of a starcannon popping around a corner could produce a flop sweat in any marine player. Now with half the shots missing on average, it just isn't the same anymore.
All Xenos players bravely wading through it, adapting with new tactics and taking a true sportsman's view of imminent buggery.
The Space Marines being overpowered and specialized to the point of laughability, and the players sifting through turns of phrase to add even more "broken" than was there initially (mkerr's post on JOTWW, in particular, the Thunderhammer-That-Should-Not-Be).
Brave Xenos and Chaos players, my little toy soldier prayers are with you.
Let's hope the Nid codex answers a few...
SM aren't generic now? We have to purchase special characters to get any differentiation between armies. You don't think the move from Traits to this made SM more generic?
"Space Marines being overpowered and specialized " Really? When was the last time you saw an assault squad win vs a real CC unit like Genestealers? Or their bolters get as many rounds of shooting as a Pulse Rifle? Or do as much long range damage as an IG army? Exactly when did the generalist SM out perform any REAL specialists?
What exactly did they add to the new C:SM; A super short range LR, a ranged artillery piece (glass cannon), two new types of veterans that die just as easily as normal marines, the Storm Shield change and Combat Tactics.
To me, the Combat Tactics is the real improvement not any of the flashy new models.
"Have to purchase special characters to differentiate"-You mean one of NINE named ones? HA.
"A real CC unit like genestealers"-You mean with that epic base statline with 2 attacks, S4, T4, W1, I6 and a few decent options, along with a maximum number of 12? HA.
"As much long range damage as an IG army"-I am floored by this one.
Here we go:
Special Issue Ammo (for nids, and anyone else)
Drop Pods (for IG, and anyone else)
Orbital Bombardments
Venerables
Ironclads
The "super short range LR" (AV 14, anyone? Flamestorm sh!tstorm, anyone?)
Chronus! (BS 5 on any tank, ANYone?)
Since when did generalist tactics outperform any REAL tactics?
Combat tactics are only useful insofar as they are used by one who knows how to use ANYthing in the list.
Spoiled.
Drop Pods....pretty much every other army has an equivalent for deep striking models onto the field. Sure, the Pod is a nice piece of Armour on the field and gets your troops up where you want them, but the limit of what can go in them means you've just paid 30 odd pts to get your marines/dreadnought further up the battlefield with a storm bolter back-up. Easy to counter when you see a list with them.
Orbital Bombardment....never use it...never will......Having to stand my kitted out Master still for an entire turn just to bring down a template that may miss...no thanks. I'll stick with the Vindicator which can do the same every turn.
Venerables.....nothing new, nothing different...still only AV12 and dying with ease to anyone with decent anti-tank.
Ironclads....nice but short ranged. In a Drop Pod they can be nicer but again, you opponent gets a turn of shooting before it gets close to combat and can probably stretch that to 2 turns by moving away from it. AV13 on the front but side and rear are still as vunerable as a normal dread.
The new Marines have some nice toys, I'm not denying that....but there's nothing overly special that can out do any army.
Tau won last years UK GT despite major Drop Pod armies. I faced a Salamander Army with a Firestorm, Venerable dread, Termies w/ SS/TH combo's and wiped the floor with it using an Eldar list of a Seer council w/ Eldrad, 3 Prisms, jetbikes, Serpent w/ twin missile and Path finders....infact, out of all the marines armies I played, non of them where a challenge compared to the ork hordes or Chaos khorne lists.
I don't play marines! I think that they have too many options and freaky new goodies. Pointwise too expensive and gimmicky, but that was my point.
Good on you for hanging in there. I don't tourney, either.
Going a little further, I think you missed the point of what I said.
"Specialized to the point of laughability"- High points for tiny armies, and Xenos players adapting to it. I'm not defending the new dexes... I loathe them. I play Khorne lists almost exclusively, and have better games, that is to say more fun, against mostly Orks and OH NO WAY... Dark Eldar/ Eldar.
Again, adapting tactics saves the day.
But I wouldn't buy a loyalist marine army to save my life.
"You mean one of NINE named ones?" Yes, 9 named character. Only 5 overwrite combat tactics and 2 of them give the same benefit.
"As much long range damage as an IG army"-I am floored by this one.
Really? I'm interested in what take all comers list you've seen that dished out more damage at range than an IG army like the 'Leafblower'?
Drop Pods we already had; they're better now with the "Drop Pod Assault," but it's not a significant change.
Chronus! (BS 5 on any tank, ANYone?)
Yes BS 5; for 70 pts. Which tank will you be adding it to? The LR variants that are all twin linked to begin with or use a template? The whirlwind or vindicator, so they can subtract that whole extra inch, or the only real way to get the most out of him a gun Predator. Only the Pred is significantly improved with the BS 5 and it makes the tank 70% more exspensive.
"Ironclads"
Woops, yes I did miss this one.
Spoiled.
Yes, I continue to ignore the 'flashy' new units, keep my force as lean on expensive choices as possible and I continue to out play armies with 400pt 'super units.' I'm spoiled that I can see the cost/benefit of many of the things you mentioned, but the combination of too many of them results in a force with units that are far too expensive on average.
And I wasn't saying spoiled to anyONE at all. I think that the dexes are spoiled. I was giving kudos to Xenos players who muddle through this new realm of GW's marinelust (could that be a new term, anyone?) and found it odd that you countered with the exact reasons, save the ironclad, that I spit on the new marine dexes.
I think that they are overpowered, overpriced and silly. Especially when I continually see marine armies mopped up by the outdated,
horribly ignored DE lists.
Legion are really good. Every time I bust them out: Wow! What are those guys (I used Tomb kings to kit bash)? Then they say- ah crap! And lastly, damn, those guys are awesome!
Since then, GW has not only decreased their power (reducing 3 shots to 2), but also dramatically increased their points.
Then, with the advent of 5th ed, cover has become abundant and extremely useful... thus taking away the best thing about the Starcannon (AP2).
If you're forced to use them at gunpoint, you can still get some good stuff done... but once you consider ROI for your points, it's hard to argue that half the shots of a Scatter Laser (which are likely to be subjected to a cover save anyhow) justify the significant difference in points.
There are smart ways to use the Starcannon... but when you look at your army as a whole you will see that those points are better used elsewhere.
You have another example in assault cannons, that saw an steep increase in points through the different codexes and then got a big nerf in the new rules. Any of the adjustments alone would have been good (and neccesary). Both together are too much.
I didn't expect a reply after 1 month...
I wouldn't mount it on a vehicle though, they used to be the weapon of choice when they didn't roll to hit and had 2d6 armour penetration, but now they just aren't worth the points on vehicles.
But your right about not worrying about this weapon, the only thing that AP2 is usefull against is our MA Nobz and those boyz have two wounds.
I'd rather 6 and get possibly 6 kills with a opponents bad dice roll than bank on thinking my opponent will march across without easily making him a cover save with even his own models. Orks do this all the time if they don't care about people yelling at them :P
Plus, more shots also mean better chances to do something to AV as well, making the Vypers have more uses than just infantry, because we know Mech is common.
I always use warwalkers with scatterlasers. If you shoot enough s6 into things it will die as well, and more importantly you can kill a lot more of normal troops and stand a chance at hurting vehicles.
For a lot less points.
The other problem is where do you put the starcannons with? Vypers are far too fragile for my liking, and youll need a lot of them, Falcons and wave serpents are already soo expensive, and really on their speed to survive, you can hardly ever shoot with them. Warwalkers with starcannons are insanely expensive and i like to stay back 48" if i can instead of 36".
Starcannons in guardian squads don't really cut it either. I rather have them cheap or add a missile launcher for the much needed antitank.
The only thing that gets a starcannon sometimes is a wraithlord, cause he's BS4. But when you get close you'll rather shoot the 2 flamers.
The trick is to give him this chances without hurting yourself in the process. I don't think starcannons are a good way to do this though.
How could starcannons regain some of their former glory? Recovering their lost shot or making them cheaper would be nice, but a bit dull - it would be more interesting if they became S7 or AP1, or perhaps if our vehicles had an upgrade to force a reroll of target's successful cover saves.