Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Miguel de Rojas — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:25:10 -0000

It was 4 shots, rending and about 20 points in C:SM 4th edition. The following marine codexes (DA and BA) increased its cost (to 30-40 poits) and reduced its avaliability. And then, not too long after that, 5th edition changed the rending rule, making it less effective. I think the new rule is better, and that assault cannons where too good, but adjusting both cost and effectivity was too much, making assault cannons not very attractive. Designers should think in advance when making that kind of adjustments, balancing codex and rulebook changes so they don't over-compensate

I didn't expect a reply after 1 month...

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Dagwood — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 09:03:01 -0000

Assault cannons used to be 3 shots and had a chance to jam. Where is the so called nerf? They get 4 shots now, doesn't jam and has rending. Yeah its only 24 inch range now instead of 36 inches. But the assault cannon is more potent today then it was 10 years ago.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

sbsk1882 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:47:33 -0000

"last!"

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Tynskel — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 01:14:42 -0000

I am sad... Nobody mentions my favorite add on to the Marines Codex... Legion of the Damned. :( Ironclads! Sternguard! Vanguard!! but nooooooooooooOOOOoooo. Legion of the Damned are always forgotten.
Legion are really good. Every time I bust them out: Wow! What are those guys (I used Tomb kings to kit bash)? Then they say- ah crap! And lastly, damn, those guys are awesome!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Smurfy — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:13:26 -0000

I think a good case to go is from basics (like I like the Jetbike dance) but apply it more. Build is the key thing. I can see a lot of people going from the Jetbike dance to Skimmers to entire game movements planned out ahead with little deviancy thanks to Eldar's supreme mobility.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Smurfy — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:11:27 -0000

Lucky dice does happen, but you are saying that I should expect my opponent to make mistakes, which isn't true at all. I am very friendly with my opponents, I don't hold anything back. "What does this thing do again? "Oh X, Y, Z" "Can it do this?" "Yes" So if people want to know they will ask, and I will answer honestly.

While I haven't gone to a tourney myself, I have played many tourney goers and have a fairly even record with them. The guys that beat me down into the ground ask questions, know their foe, and use much more solid tactics than banking on me not knowing something, and that's what I'm trying to argue.

Solid tactics and backup plans > Hoping my opponent has a flaw.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

bumbler20 — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:33:52 -0000

I was only speaking of the trend I see in the recent marine releases, and the effect it has on bearders. Not to say bad for not playing marines... I don't. But they certainly get all the love from GW, whereas everyone else seems to get nerfed.
And I wasn't saying spoiled to anyONE at all. I think that the dexes are spoiled. I was giving kudos to Xenos players who muddle through this new realm of GW's marinelust (could that be a new term, anyone?) and found it odd that you countered with the exact reasons, save the ironclad, that I spit on the new marine dexes.
I think that they are overpowered, overpriced and silly. Especially when I continually see marine armies mopped up by the outdated,
horribly ignored DE lists.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

bumbler20 — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 13:30:28 -0000

Your last paragraph was pretty much the whole point.
I don't play marines! I think that they have too many options and freaky new goodies. Pointwise too expensive and gimmicky, but that was my point.
Good on you for hanging in there. I don't tourney, either.
Going a little further, I think you missed the point of what I said.
"Specialized to the point of laughability"- High points for tiny armies, and Xenos players adapting to it. I'm not defending the new dexes... I loathe them. I play Khorne lists almost exclusively, and have better games, that is to say more fun, against mostly Orks and OH NO WAY... Dark Eldar/ Eldar.
Again, adapting tactics saves the day.
But I wouldn't buy a loyalist marine army to save my life.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Lorieth — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 10:01:56 -0000

I do like starcannons, but as lots of people have said the price and loss of the 3rd shot means scatter lasers are often better. It's a very similar problem to the Dark Reapers, though at least their Exarch can ignore cover saves and the Reaper Launcher has better range. Of course the other problem is the low AP doesn't help against vehicles, so the scatter laser is still the best for popping Rhinos.

How could starcannons regain some of their former glory? Recovering their lost shot or making them cheaper would be nice, but a bit dull - it would be more interesting if they became S7 or AP1, or perhaps if our vehicles had an upgrade to force a reroll of target's successful cover saves.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

MycroftHolmes — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:59:25 -0000

"You mean with their T4 and 3+save" I play other armies, and I know just how survivable that stat line is. That doesn't change the fact that veterans are no tougher than a tactical and often double the price.

"You mean one of NINE named ones?" Yes, 9 named character. Only 5 overwrite combat tactics and 2 of them give the same benefit.

"As much long range damage as an IG army"-I am floored by this one.
Really? I'm interested in what take all comers list you've seen that dished out more damage at range than an IG army like the 'Leafblower'?

Drop Pods we already had; they're better now with the "Drop Pod Assault," but it's not a significant change.

Chronus! (BS 5 on any tank, ANYone?)
Yes BS 5; for 70 pts. Which tank will you be adding it to? The LR variants that are all twin linked to begin with or use a template? The whirlwind or vindicator, so they can subtract that whole extra inch, or the only real way to get the most out of him a gun Predator. Only the Pred is significantly improved with the BS 5 and it makes the tank 70% more exspensive.

"Ironclads"
Woops, yes I did miss this one.

Spoiled.
Yes, I continue to ignore the 'flashy' new units, keep my force as lean on expensive choices as possible and I continue to out play armies with 400pt 'super units.' I'm spoiled that I can see the cost/benefit of many of the things you mentioned, but the combination of too many of them results in a force with units that are far too expensive on average.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Conrad_Dakarn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:04:48 -0000

Woo hoo!!!...Hammerheads for Eldar!!!!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Conrad_Dakarn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 05:03:04 -0000

Specialist Ammo at 25 points per model....no thanks. The options that the ammo gives is nice but you're still talking about a marine with T4 and 3+Sv carrying that bolter and he dies just as easily as any other marine. At 125pt for 5, they're best using in a Drop Pod for a shock attack before dying to either a combat unit or better shooty unit.

Drop Pods....pretty much every other army has an equivalent for deep striking models onto the field. Sure, the Pod is a nice piece of Armour on the field and gets your troops up where you want them, but the limit of what can go in them means you've just paid 30 odd pts to get your marines/dreadnought further up the battlefield with a storm bolter back-up. Easy to counter when you see a list with them.
Orbital Bombardment....never use it...never will......Having to stand my kitted out Master still for an entire turn just to bring down a template that may miss...no thanks. I'll stick with the Vindicator which can do the same every turn.
Venerables.....nothing new, nothing different...still only AV12 and dying with ease to anyone with decent anti-tank.
Ironclads....nice but short ranged. In a Drop Pod they can be nicer but again, you opponent gets a turn of shooting before it gets close to combat and can probably stretch that to 2 turns by moving away from it. AV13 on the front but side and rear are still as vunerable as a normal dread.

The new Marines have some nice toys, I'm not denying that....but there's nothing overly special that can out do any army.

Tau won last years UK GT despite major Drop Pod armies. I faced a Salamander Army with a Firestorm, Venerable dread, Termies w/ SS/TH combo's and wiped the floor with it using an Eldar list of a Seer council w/ Eldrad, 3 Prisms, jetbikes, Serpent w/ twin missile and Path finders....infact, out of all the marines armies I played, non of them where a challenge compared to the ork hordes or Chaos khorne lists.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Conrad_Dakarn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:51:25 -0000

You are having to take 9 wounds on the squad before you have a change of loosing a gunner though... so Angguls first post makes a good point. You have a shield of 9 wounds to take before you loose a gunner and I don't see how 9 wounds can be caused in one go if it's at 36" range using the cannon. Sure, you'll loose models over the course of the game and probably have to take saves on the gunners by turn 4-5 but then you've had it there for quite a while.

However....At over 100pt for T3, 5+ sv with a cannon and Warlock...I'd not be too tempted to take them just for the Cannon when you can take the Vyper for less points.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Conrad_Dakarn — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:47:21 -0000

At 70 pt a vehicle for minimum load out on the Vyper, it's expensive for 50/50 odds of a hit and kill. To kill a squad of 5 marines in the open, you need 5 Vypers by odds....That's 350 pts to kill 90 pts.

I highly doubt you could do enough to prevent a 4 man missile dev squad getting shots back and bagging the Vypers with ease. Odd's again for a 4 missile Dev squad (even with cover saves for the Vypers) give you 3 hits and 2 pens and a 1 failed cover which, with being open topped, is most likely gonna destroy or render the Vyper useless. A roll of 2+ on a pen hit is enough to get rid of the Cannon, immobilize (and thus destroy) or our right destroy a Vyper.

For 150 pt, I can get 4 missiles in a 5 man dev squad....so for the points of 5 Vypers....I can get 8 missiles a turn at a longer range than the Vypers with better odds of killing them than they have of killing me....and still have 70pt spare for extra marines and thus more wounds in the squads.

As I said in my post above....Vyper with Starcannon is too expensive in 5th ed to be worth while. A missile launcher and cannon is only 5pt more at 75 a model but gives more Str6 shots (and with cover being prominent the 3+ armour isn't much better than 4+ cover against StarCannon) and it also gives you a missile of Krak or Plasma origin....not to mention the extra range that the missile gives you for long range Rhino hunting etc.

I think I'll stick with my present loud out until the new codex and thus cheaper Eldar.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

bumbler20 — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:24:17 -0000

"Die just as easily as regular marines"-You mean with their T4 and 3+save? HA.
"Have to purchase special characters to differentiate"-You mean one of NINE named ones? HA.
"A real CC unit like genestealers"-You mean with that epic base statline with 2 attacks, S4, T4, W1, I6 and a few decent options, along with a maximum number of 12? HA.
"As much long range damage as an IG army"-I am floored by this one.
Here we go:
Special Issue Ammo (for nids, and anyone else)
Drop Pods (for IG, and anyone else)
Orbital Bombardments
Venerables
Ironclads
The "super short range LR" (AV 14, anyone? Flamestorm sh!tstorm, anyone?)
Chronus! (BS 5 on any tank, ANYone?)
Since when did generalist tactics outperform any REAL tactics?
Combat tactics are only useful insofar as they are used by one who knows how to use ANYthing in the list.
Spoiled.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Marty Hartwick — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 19:27:45 -0000

I agree here, the articles posted seem to be very short sighted in their 'tactics'. I don't really know any player who would fall for such obvious 'tricks'. Why bother rapid-firing into jetbikes, when you know there are StarCannons in waiting?

Marine players aren't all dumb, but the fact that most new players play marines means we get a reputation for being poor tacticians...

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

TheGrog — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:49:29 -0000

Remember that one aspect of high level play is to give your opponent as many chances to make mistakes and calculated gambles. Then punish him when he does screw up or misjudge the situation.

The trick is to give him this chances without hurting yourself in the process. I don't think starcannons are a good way to do this though.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Smurfy — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 15:38:06 -0000

Yes, re: that Fantasy world thing. But that's his style, hoping the enemy makes mistakes. (Not exactly the mark of excellent tactician too, I don't see generals of the past hoping the enemy is stupid.)

Seriously though, if someone knows my army and theirs equally well (Like I donno, regularly playing against them or being Eldar as well?) these tricks never work.

Fritz - It's better to put down tactics you have tried against regular opponents, not new people, thank you.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

anon — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:02:01 -0000

Seriously, every article Fritz writes seems to exist in this fantasy world where people routinely make ridiculous newbie mistakes, never to recover or learn from them. How can you seriously sit down and write an article with the premise "rapid fire those marines in cover with jetbikes and the enemy will OBVIOUSLY chase after you, thus giving you a chance to use your overpriced anti-marine gun."

What player is going to do that? "Hmm, yes, those jetbikes are 17" away. I will leave my 3+/4+ cover saves and begin a chase, abandoning this objective I need to win the game." Don't forget that if the Eldar player is placing the objective in open terrain then the marine player is also placing half of the mission objectives in places advantageous to him! None of this happens in a vacuum!

For my buck I think scatter lasers are far more in line with 5th edition, cheaper and higher rate of fire means reliability. I don't play Eldar however, so YMMV

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

zenjah — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:45:55 -0000

Its just a playful reply to a quote from the back of the eldar codex you troll.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

MycroftHolmes — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:17:53 -0000

wait a minute...

SM aren't generic now? We have to purchase special characters to get any differentiation between armies. You don't think the move from Traits to this made SM more generic?

"Space Marines being overpowered and specialized " Really? When was the last time you saw an assault squad win vs a real CC unit like Genestealers? Or their bolters get as many rounds of shooting as a Pulse Rifle? Or do as much long range damage as an IG army? Exactly when did the generalist SM out perform any REAL specialists?

What exactly did they add to the new C:SM; A super short range LR, a ranged artillery piece (glass cannon), two new types of veterans that die just as easily as normal marines, the Storm Shield change and Combat Tactics.

To me, the Combat Tactics is the real improvement not any of the flashy new models.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Anggul — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:14:59 -0000

yays =D

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

LordSandwich — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:48:20 -0000

FA13?
BS4?

Gee, why not give them a S10, AP1, 72" range main gun that can fire a S6 large blast instead?

And how about some kind of detachable unit that has... I dunno... 6ish S5 shots?

Yes. Yes, you just described the Hammerhead.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

LordSandwich — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:42:38 -0000

Wraithlords, yes. Battlesuits, yes. War Walkers, no.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Art of the Star Cannon

Toggofwar — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 08:28:20 -0000

Haha actually i use the term gay to explain lots of things in a non derogatory sense and quite enjoyed that first post's description how ever he did lower the tone slightly :p

Must admit in all my years of playing eldar ive avoided star cannons due to the cost, and found the sneak shot not very rewarding. Eldar mobility and range really strengthen this tactic and its definatly viable, will give it a go soon!

Think with other armies such as Marines with plasma guns wont work as effectivly as they lack range and everyone knows what a plasma gun looks like ;)