Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

G1ngerk1d — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:27:23 -0000

Can immobilized vehicles contest objectives? IIRC drop pods are immobilized as soon as hey hit the table.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Jakk88 — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:47:28 -0000

I heard that the capacities in the vanilla codex were a mistake and should have been more like the Space Wolves. I suppose we will find out in the next marine book.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

BDub — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:53:11 -0000

AI is blasphemy. That's why the Imperium/Mechanicus uses human skulls/brains to run things.

Point taken though. I just think that you should have to have actual troop (vehicle crews count) to contest an objective.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

VonKoeder — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:29:28 -0000

But he didn't decide to. and he doesn't decide which ones go where or what is in them. it just kind of untactically happens.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Vince456 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:44:53 -0000

He said it was a hobby list.

"Some of you asked for a typical space marine list so here you go (this list is for my new Soul Drinkers army which will be coming to you in a hobby article soon)"

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Vince456 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:43:36 -0000

Really a good drop list should be using 3 or 5 pods at most. Gimping the ability of the later 1 or 2 throw away pods to come in is not that big of a deal. Ok so my tactical squad which is basically a objective holder doesn't come in till turn 4. Oh wait i want it to live to the late game to hold my back objectives. Do I call this even a bad thing?

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Vince456 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:40:36 -0000

Cassuis is much much better then the vanilla version. Tig on the other hand not so much. This is his hobby list so keep that in mind but I would drop tig for a normal Liberian and change the crusader to a redeemer. Also this lets you grab a thunderfire cannon (think this is underrated) or a vindicator. Also I think the 3 land speeders need a heavy flamer to go with their multi melta (we see a lot more low armor type armies in hobby tourneys in my experience).

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Syderwarp — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:01:52 -0000

I don't agree, but understand where you are going with this. BCP should have been 10 special,or 12, Then DropPods with 12. The nerf on Drops,and BCP could take DropPods,and Special to fit 12.
I can't see droppod vs Footsloogging BCP of 15-16. you have use LRC. I think it was stoopid the way DropPods work for SW. That's me =P

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

ShiftAlmighty — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:56:55 -0000

i have to admit, facing 2 land raiders full of marines and then knowing that drop pods will soon be landing near them is a terrible, terrible feeling

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Roland Durendal — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:47:46 -0000

Granted, while it may not "gimp" his particular army, what people need to take away from the article is that in lists where they try to do hybrids, especially with more than 2 pods, the presence of a Astro and potentially a OotF definitely begins to impact their ability to maneuver and gain the initiative.

That's my point, a ok article but more in depth analysis of the draw backs would have been nice. That and possibly showing more than just one example of a hybrid list, b/c typical hybrids I've seen (least in my area) usually run 3 minimum pods.

And since you brought up the list, the army list won't exactly prove effective at any of his tactics he mentioned. They can contest objectives no problem (Aerial irritants), but it fails pretty much everywhere else. 1 pod dropping in to "bait" me (Decoy From the Skies) will only make me laugh and either ignore it and go around it or shoot it with one, maybe 2, units and kill it. As for (Neuter Enemy Mobility) and (Define the Battlefield on YOUR own Terms), sorry but 1 pod coming in on turn 1 does neither of those. Heck 2 pods by turn 2 isn't scary either. So what if I start in reserve, the worst I have to deal with is what? 2 tac squads? 2 dreadnoughts? 2 Sternguard squads? It will definitely adjust how I play for that initial turn, but it's nothing that can't be easily overcome.

But those comments are directed at that specific list. Which is why I think another list or two would be helpful. The tactica has some ok advice, but really only for armies that have a good amount of pods (3+), if not comprised entirely of podding forces.

~ Roland

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

asugradinwa — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:36:22 -0000

This was put in to limit space wolf power. You have to make the hard choice of getting a second special weapon with a 10 man Grey Hunter squad with Leadership 8 or taking a wolf guard add on to a 9 man or less squad for Leadership 9, but only have 1 special weapon.

Blood claws don't get the second special weapon util they have a 15 man unit, but seeing as how regular space Marines can't take more then a 10 man squad I think they put the 10 man limit to stop large units of blood claws comming down.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Roa — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 06:32:52 -0000

The weakness of Imperial Guard troops is very easily remedied by mechanizing. They can operate just as effectively from within a transport for all intents and purposes as without, and requires one then to blow up the AV12 chimera before you can get at the infantry. The importance of IG command squads is also *vastly* overestimated by many IG opponents, especially in a mech list where they essentially serve as makeshift special weapons platforms. Killing off the HQ squads in a mech IG army isn't going to cripple the army by any means.

Also, the weakness of the IG infantry is one of its strenghts. If you waste your drop podding unit on shooting infantry, be my guest. The big guns will ensure you don't make the same mistake twice after using your 200pt Marine squad to kill off a 65pt infantry squad or 50pt platoon command. I had a marine player last week make that exact mistake. Comes down with two units of melta sternguard and an Ironclad, combat squads them both, kills 3 chimeras and some infantry, but the chimeras had blocked LoS to the LRBT's and the Vendettas were reserved. The next turn, after killing about 200pts worth of IG infantry and transports, he lost the Ironclad, Vulkan, a Master of the Forge, and over 600pts worth of Sternguard Vets to LRBT battlecannon and plasma cannon fire and Vendetta lascannon fire and the various guns of the other infantry units and Chimeras. There wasn't much left to do other than mop up after that.

Currently I've yet to see a drop pod SM army do anything other than flounder against a decently deployed (or reserve denial'd) IG army. They just either have no decent place to come in and end up wasting themselves on weeny units, or their trap gets sprung with nothing to ensnare and the IG roll on turn 2 with an Astropath and effectively seize a first turn advantage in terms of shooting.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Archer — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:55:56 -0000

Against IG: Not as bad as you think... due to the overall fragile nature of Imperial Guard troops. Detailing a pod to go HQ hunting is not a bad thing... and if placement is right, the IG player has far too many things to shoot at to shoot at it WELL.

I've done this twice- its been 50/50 on the success.... but even my opponent would tell you his win came from my horrible dice as almost all my placement was dead on. Average dice makes it a bad day at the office for IG, as long as the marine coming in via Drop Pod is confident in his placement and tactics.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Archer — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:50:19 -0000

I don't see the survivability of the list really.... With only two troop units, I can see serious issues with objective based missions.

I'd lose the Termies and the LRC and take more troops... Even a normal 6 man squad in a Razorback is good. the sixman for holding an objective and the razorback as mobile firepower.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Myu — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:11:59 -0000

I am so glad I decided to go for a mixed army after reading this article ^_^

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

plasticaddict — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:43:43 -0000

If only Fire Warriors are involved that would be true, however you discounted the effect of a plasma gun/missile pod armed Crisis team, Pathfinder marker lights (7+ cover saves anyone?, BS 5 Fire Warriors, negatives to your moral checks, S8 AP3 seeker missiles), exploding drop pods from Railgun fire, etc. Two teams of fire warriors in double tap range can, if not totaly destroy, render ineffective a Marine squad in a single turn. Two or three surviving Marines can't be counted on to take a 12 man team. Most imprtantly Crisis suits are a manuvering unit that are best deployed on the flank of a Fire Warrior team not behind them, this will lead to you not having cover most of the time. This varies depending on the unit in question, however it is the tactic I regularly employ with good effect aginst deep striking enemies. In fact it has caused a couple of my regular opponents to stop dropping into my lines. As with everything in this game it is a matter of chance, Will I hit and wound enough? Will you make above average on your saves? Will my broadsides not be able to hit the broadside of a drop pod? If the die are aginst me I will lose, but even with average dice rolls I can neuter whatever you put in front of me. And let us not forget the most basic of things, terrain and deployment. I will deploy, if able, in a manner that leaves you few good drop points and keeps you in front of me, funneled into my fire lanes, having to get to me through terrain, etc. I have found that the mathhammer aspect of the game is to often touted as why things will or will not work, only to have the odds repeatedly defied to give the "wrong" outcome.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

darkwynn — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:35:01 -0000

that is nice and all but what do you do when they make their saves or they are in a position you can only get one fire warrior squad turned around to be within Rapid fire weapons range?

12 fire warriors rapid firing is only 12 hits and about 8 wounds Marines save 5 of them. You still have 7-8 marines alive on average. Now lets say you do get enough people to bear and you get two squads or three squads you still have three marines alive from just one unit. Yes, you can use crisis suits to hit the squads but pretty good chance they will have 4+ saves because your firewarriors are in the way and you can't get clear shots.

Now lets add in the fact that you have multiple units that just drop pod down in front of you. The average numbers for that short range and for Tau in most cases hurt them. Tau need at least one or two turns to soften their target before they can wipe them off the board. If you close distance for the next turn assault it doesn't go well for Tau.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Syderwarp — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:20:26 -0000

I have a question, and I've already called my GW mgr buddy. He doesn't know why either. If SM codex DropPods carry 12 models, then WTF is my SW taking 10???? I was always running ASM/Blood claws out of DropPods as 12. Now I have to take 10. I would rather sell off my dropPods then use 10 models.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

plasticaddict — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:53:24 -0000

Tah depends on what kind of Tau you are facing. Broadside team #1 split fire 1 railgun into first enemy drop pod with 8 smart missiles into the troops, repeat on second enemy target with Broadside team#2. Crisis team #1 into enemy unit three ignoring drop pod, repeat with Crisis team #2 on enemy unit four. That leaves three 12 man Fire Warrior teams to clean up on enemy troop units, starting with those that were most heavely mauled. If you have Pathfinders on the board you put marker lights on the most dangerous/highest value target to help increase the effectiveness of you fire and leave yourself the option of putting some seeker missiles into the survivors. It's worked well in the past and will I suspect continue to work far into the future.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

buttlerthepug — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:34:19 -0000

Looks interesting... I wouldnt call that Soul Drinkers list though... since they are kind of only Drop Pods and Thunderhawks... dont use vehicles of any sort IIRC, and are plain close combat... but deffinitely a list worth trying

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Aya — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:19:52 -0000

lol... what? You're joking right? Never under estimate the Tau's ability to annihilate whatever happens to be dumb enough to end up in rapid fire range. I want to say Tau is second only to IG in the sheer volume of fire that can be put out.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Aya — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:10:10 -0000

I was trying to be more critical of his meh list, which he called competitive which leads innocent newbies to take it as 'teh bambsauce'. Cassius... not that bad. I agree, unless you really want a Terminator chaplain, Cassius is a very good choice. Sorry about that I was really talking about Tigurious more than anything.

That guy is just not worth his points. Librarians are squishy. Squishier than just about any other SM HQ and Tigurious is no exception. He has no invul save, unless you use Force Dome and even then it's only a 5+. If you used a regular one you'd save 90 points. 40 if you took an Epostolary.

As for lack of troops, what army doesn't build itself to anti-mech? Most players I know, or read about, build their armies to kill marines. Which makes sense, we have some the best troops in the game. If you only have 20 tacticals you are going to have a hard time doing anything other than contesting objectives. And while I know usually that's all you need to do to win, two to four small groups just doesn't cut it. Especially when an army like Tau or IG can gun them down in a turn of shooting.

I just feel like this could of been better written and presented, that's all. This article comes across as intended for newer players, and being from BOLS, a website that is very highly regarded, newbies are going to read it and consider the word of God. Ok... that might be a little much the creative metaphor department but you get my point, yes?

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

DarkLink — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:32:00 -0000

"Ok... so what happens if I hold my entire army in reserve and make you go first? The Imperial Guard Astropath/Officer of the Fleet combo just absolutely ruins your day and lets not even get started on Mystics. You don't even mention the huge flaws a list can have. Its not much of a tactica."

He mentions what can happen if you hold your entire army in reserve. He only has two units in drop pods. He can just bring them in, and since it is only a small part of his army, it isn't a big deal.

As for the Astropath, well, that's what Tigirius is for. Statistically, a rerollable 5+ is the same as a 4+, and a rerollable 4+ is better than a 3+. And considering there will only be two units in reserve, it doesn't exactly "gimp" his army.

That's the whole point of the "hybrid" drop pod list thing. He describes things that a list with only a few drop pods can do.

Cassius is 130pts, and significantly better than a vanilla Chaplain (T6, remember). Not exactly a huge point sink, compared to some that I've seen. And only 2 scoring units isn't a big deal, at least not when you can combat squad. Remember, it doesn't matter how many troops you start with, only how many you end with.

Most of your criticisms aren't really founded. It sounds like you didn't fully read the article, because he adresses many of the issues you brings up. And he never really said his list would be super-competitive. It was just an example list, as the article was just about incorperating 2-3 drop pods into a normal list, not about a full drop pod army as you seem to think.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

Muskie — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:26:54 -0000

What about terrain, whenever I see the internet experts, they always seem to just assume the terrain is favourable. Up in Canada we have terrain set by someone, and on some tables it can be pretty dense, including the all jungle or in some otherway all difficult terrain board. They've done this at Grand Tournaments/Conflicts and it is still done at Astronomi-con.

I'm building a board for next year which will be quite dense in terrain and I want to see how the deep striking/drop podding armies do on it. The goal is recreate a classic WWI or even as late as Vietnam trench battle. 40K offers a lot of ways around ground pounding, but if you make it a troops only count for scoring that eliminates some of the use of the dreadnought and other elite drop poding options.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Hybrid Drop Pod Lists

plasticaddict — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:04:00 -0000

Thanks, Those are what I was basing my list around. Dropping an empty drop pod with only a storm bolter in it is just a little to cheesey for me, however droping an area denial weapon (or in this case several) to me fits fluff.

My marine scouts infiltrate in advance of the main assault, the bulk of my forces follow them in and begin the main action, my reserves come in where they can cause the most damage. Using the empty pods to deny objectives and be a threat with missile launchers helps to force the enemy to either withdraw from the objective or dedicate firepower to destroying it. And yes they are made of paper but that is a unit not engaging my main force. And not all of the pods will be empty, a multimelta dread inside your lines can be very annoying ;)