Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

sodcactus — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 14:39:05 -0000

Seems like the SW FAQ cleared this up. You DO need LOS to the first model you want to hit.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Pink Horror — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:13:48 -0000

Since this is such a hotly debated topic, I decided to ask the staff at Warhammer World today how it should be used. Not a single one of them (out of about 40 staff members) said it should lower initiative. There. The company that wrote the rules say you are wrong. You can try and weasle your way out of it in any way you please, but the fact of the matter is, Foehammer DOES NOT lower the targets intiative when thrown. Argue it all you like, but if you try to use it that way, you are Cheating.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Starion — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:02:52 -0000

Please tell me that's supposed to be sarcastic...
"It can't be used on units in vehicles..." because they're not on the table thus not eligible to be shot at.

"...since the passengers inside can't shoot" What has the passengers' ability to shot got to do with them/their transport being a target?

Unless you meant to say "...be used BY...", which would then validate the entire sentence.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

badbeef — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:24:47 -0000

since this is considered a shooting attack.. It cant be used on units inside vehicle transports that moved more than 6 inches.. since the passengers inside cant shoot..

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

mkerr — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:05:37 -0000

It doesn't look like anything stops the line; it's just a line. I have no idea why they felt the "may pass through terrain" comment was necessary (perhaps to make it clear that line of sight isn't needed or cover isn't granted?).

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Spanky — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:32:38 -0000

Well ,we may never see eye to eye on this, but in spirit of a gentmenly agreement, allow me to retorte with my interpretation.

"You're familiar with the principle, it's integral to the 40k ruleset. Codex trumps rulebook."
Yes, but in this case stating that it is a psychic shooting attack in the description re-affirms the rules it should follow. My thought for the rule that it ignores terrain is to address when the 24" line passes through your target unit, into a wall or other terrain and then into another unit behind that wall. That way, all other "shooting" conditions are adressed. ie, who the RP can assault, who his retinue shoots at, ect.
I would be ok with this power targeting a unit completely blocked by LOS, as long as a FAQ would state that it was a "target" unit. That way it would keep the RP from using jotww, then running off and assaulting another unit.

"Nothing is skipped."
What is skipped is the line stating that jotww is a psychic shooting attack. agreed, its confusing as hell and needs to be addressed as to why its there.

"JotWW may pass through terrain. It is not possible to see through terrain. Therefore, the general requirement of psychic shooting attacks that the psyker must be able to see his target has been modified by the Codex description of the power."

Based on two statements, you drew a logical conclusion. But it is a conclusion only- those two statements never claim to trump the first line of the powers description.
Ulimately this power comes down to an opinion, so lets agree to respect each others no matter how wrong yours is. ;)
Seriously, thank you for an gentmenly reply with good, solid, descriptions and supporting facts of your thought process. Its rare to see that these days.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Crusty_Curmudgeon — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:41:46 -0000

Nooooooo! Not that song! <jabs ice="" picks="" in="" ears="">

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

bumbler20 — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:50:27 -0000

Last!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:31:40 -0000

3) there is no defense against it...

Sure there is! Stay more than 24" away until that bastard is dead! :)
Swamp the RP with disposable infantry, he can't shoot while engaged in CC. etc.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:26:00 -0000

Actually, the only LOS you'll need is looking straight down at the table, to see who's under the line.

I find it curious that the 'model' can be hit... does that not include it's base? If the line hit's the wingtip of my Flyrant but doesn't pass over its base is the Flyrant hit? I think so...

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:13:00 -0000

The line doesn't stop until 24" away. A vehicle doesn't stop the line, but a vehicle is not effected by the power.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:08:33 -0000

Nothing is skipped. In general, a psychic shooting attack works as above, but the description of JotWW precludes the need for LOS.
Just because the power is described as a pyschic shooting attack does not mean that every general condition must be met. The general conditions stand unless they are modified by the specifics of the power--and in this case the LOS condition is modified.
You're familiar with the principle, it's integral to the 40k ruleset. Codex trumps rulebook.

JotWW may pass through terrain. It is not possible to see through terrain. Therefore, the general requirement of psychic shooting attacks that the psyker must be able to see his target has been modified by the Codex description of the power. If your 'target' for JotWW is on the other side of a wall, you can still drop the line on him even though you can't see him.

I too find it unfortunate and frustrating that GW didn't use the explicit languange 'LOS not required.' But it's self evident to me that a line that passes through terrain, two squads, a close combat, a Land Raider, and still hits a Carnifex out at 24" away makes LOS moot. This is an indescriminate power that hits friend and foe alike out to a certain range, regardless of whether the RP can see them all (or any of them).

The only open questions I have are: 1) If the RP is attached to a squad, who must that squad fire at? The closest enemy hit by the power? any of the enemies hit by the power? or any target of their choice, independent of the RP?

and 2) likewise, what are the assault restrictions after using JotWW?

I would suggest that JotWW should be considered entirely independent from the attached squad's shooting, and has no assault restriction. The squad shoots and assaults as normal, ignoring the fact the RP is doing his own thing in the shooting phase. But this is houserule/workaround at best, and is not firm.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

FerociousBeast — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:14:02 -0000

Umm... ignoring armor saves is not all that AP1 does. The far more important distinction of AP1 weapons is that they give +1 on the vehicle damage table. That's what we're talking about here.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:09:38 -0000

But GW plays mixy-matchy all the time to spice up the game. Each army has it's own outside-of-normal things it can do; Foehammer is no different. Gaunts can return to the table with Without Number, Necrons WBB, Space Marines can choose to fall back and their regrouping is nonstandard...

Every army starts with the general rules in the BRB, and every army jacks them up in some way to create some flair. GW does this all the time--shake things up to keep it interesting. 40k would be unplayably boring if every army used exactly the same rules. Sure, in general a thunderhammer is CC only, but the Foehammer is flair!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Ferro — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:55:22 -0000

Exactly. Try and draw LOS through a Carnifex, some ruins, a Land Raider (not effected by the power) three other squads of dudes, some friendly. It's impossible. And yet, everyone under the line out to 24" is hit.

LOS is not required. This is self-evident. JotWW can pass through walls. LOS cannot pass through walls.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Dooley — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:58:40 -0000

One does not actually shoot in close combat with a pistol one simply uses it as a bludgeon or a club. If i were made to use the down side of it "getting hot" if I rolled a one I would assume to get the up side of it being St 7 as well!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Dooley — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:50:49 -0000

But effectively any power weapon is AP 1 in close combat, you get no Armor save from a power weapon and nobody in the 40K Universe (that I know of) has a 1+ armor save! So to save the confution they gave the Hammer an AP of 1 for that effect. This is kind of a silly argument since one is arguing simantics! Its like saying a Grey knight isnt a space marine cus nowere in their profile does it say "Space Marine".
If the Dex says it is a "Thunder Hammer" with a shooting profile I would think it would get the "THUNDER HAMMER" special rule and the cool guy snazy bit the book added on to it!

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Dooley — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:44:26 -0000

"As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24" away. This line may pass through terrain. Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test (see Characteristic Tests in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook). If the model fails the test, it is removed from play. Monstrous creatures may subtract one from their dice roll due to their tremendous size and strength, though remember that the roll of a 6 is always a failure."

I this is taken Verbatim from the Dex Am I safe to assume that the line MAY NOT pass through Vehicles? I does only say that it MAY pass through Terrain, but makes no mention of its ability to pass through any thing else that may stop a traced line.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Spanky — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:19:53 -0000

You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You say:
A) Foehammer get stuns in the shooting attack because;
B) its a thunderhammer and;
C) thunderhammers, described in the CC rules section, get stuns.
Ok fair enough, even though nowhere in the shooting statline of foehammer or its description does it say it gets stuns, it is logically assumed in your argument.

But then you argue that you jotww dosn't need LOS or a target because its description doesn't spcifically say it even though jotww is:
A) a psychic shooting attack
and those are described in the psychic section as;
B)counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise)
with a further specific example of
C) the psyker
must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in
combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if
he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack. In the same
way, if a psyker targets a unit with a psychic shooting
attack, then he can only assault that unit in the ensuing
Assault phase.
You choose to skip the very same logic path you use for the benifits of foehammer to get the benifits of jotww.
You can't have it all ya know.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Ferro — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:37:19 -0000

This topic is so tricky. Forhekset, one could use the exact same words to defend Mkerr's position (not the 'are you people stupid' part, the rest of it :) ).

Use some common sense indeed. While JotWW does not use the exact words 'ignores LOS', it does say that the line may pass through terrain--which is the same thing! You cannot trace LOS through a wall. You can trace JotWW through a wall. Therefore, JotWW does not require LOS.

I find it particularly frustrating that GW described the power the way they did. "As a Psychic Shooting Attack..." and then everything else contradicts the premise. But there you go. It's a Psychic Shooting attack in name only.

Asking for a defined list of specific exclusions reminds me of the little warning they used to put on solar screens for car windshields: "WARNING! Do not attempt to operate vehicle with solar screen in place!" Well duh.

WARNING! We're calling Jaws of the World Wolf a psychic shooting attack for lack of a better name. Here's how you use it: <description follows="">

I argue that the rules for JotWW does "obviously make [pyschic shooting attack] rules obsolete."

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Rick — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:27:16 -0000

How is, "removed from play" any different than "removed as casualty"?

I'm going to disagree and say that this was just bad editing on GW's part, and I'm pretty sure they "assumed" everyone would understand that "removing from play" is the same as "removed as a casualty".

Not to be confrontational, but I would actually appreciate if you could find where in the rulebook "removed from play" is distinct from "removed as a casualty"

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

UltramarineFan — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:46:50 -0000

That's certainly one way of putting it.
:)

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

bumbler20 — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:28:43 -0000

Still incredible how he brings up unassailable logic to defend his position. Even if it's not actually HIS position, per se, he still manages to frame his arguments in a way that we will, with any luck, run across on the board someday. Having borne this barrage of logic in defense of an illogical rules set, will we not be better prepared when a gamer less astute tries this sh!t on us?
I think it's funny.
No matter that I utterly disagree with mkerr, he is flawless in his interpretations of GW's logic loops, and a gentleman about it at that!
Kudos to all engaged here, with one notable exception, that being He Who Shall Not Be Called Out Nor Stand Up.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Souldu5t — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:44:46 -0000

I'm just going to chime in and give my love and support to Mkerr becuase so far he's been right about everything and has pretty much been trying to single handidly fight off hordes of disbelievers. Foehammer is a thrown thunderhammer so it has all the effects of a regular thunder hammer unless otherwise specified (such as the str attribute in the profile). Otherwise it would say 'Foehammer may make a ranged attack' which in no way precludes that it is still a thunderhammer.
And JotWW does not need a target you bunch of whiners. It's so simple, you just draw a straight line from the character, period. Nowhere in the description of the power does it even mention the word 'target' and any references to it being a psychic shooting attack is only making it so he can't use that ability if engaged in CC, shot last that turn, etc. Mkerr speaks the truth.

Re: 40K TACTICS: Using Jaws of the World Wolf

Starion — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:29:12 -0000

At the end of the day, when used as a range weapon, it's Str10 AP1+. Anything NOT instakilled by that is probably slow enough in the I stakes that trying to say it's 'stunned' will be a near pointless excercise anyway. A Fex is I1/I2, with a -1 to the diceroll. Ask yourselves if 288 points to drop 1-2 models per game in that manner (that's the most I could really see being done, in a practical game) is worth it...