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Initiative 8, Six attacks on the charge, 4+ to wound, and a 2+Inv. Save= Death for most things in the game. Plus, if she dies, so what? Its only 90 points.
Also, don't forget about Asdrubael Vect : AV14 Skimmer, and can fight in HTH combat with 5 attacks at I7, and has a dark lance, and two disintergrators, and three splinter pistols at BS6 Plus he has naked babes chained to his flying barge of doom! ULTIMATE WIN!
Asdrubael Vect in my experience isn't as good. First time my friend used his brand new asdrubael vect, I took it down in turn 1 with my brand new basilisk lol! He was not happy after that :P
I've had lists with both, but Farsight would probably slap Shadowsun around in combat.
Funny thing is, they're both expensive pointwise, and I don't run either of them often.
The 'Farsight Bomb' CAN be a thing of beauty, and Shadowsun and her dual Meltas CAN be very nasty, and her leadership boost is great for Broadsides (boy do those things draw fire!), but Tau characters aren't really HEROES like other codex characters are. A choice between Shadowsun and Abaddon is no choice at all.
Then again, Ghazghkull is so effective point-by-point in benefits for its race that he's in a class of its own. It's almost a "no brainer" to pick him half the time.
Abaddon is powerful, yes, but unlike Ghazghkull, a CSM player has to think hard whether the points warrant the use.
Asurmen sucks because he doesn't have anything higher than S4 ever. He must cruise around killing IG or something.
the poll isn't meant to list every IC out there it's just a sampling
I know the list isn't meant to include every IC, but it's just so short.
@everyone else in this Abaddon vs. Calgar discussion is that one must remember that although they cost almost the same bare a mere 25 pts Abaddon does nothing for his army whereas the option between passing and failing any morale check required to take is a major boost to the marine army (albeit it had been greater for armies without ATSKNF).. and even when mathhammering Calgar does considerable damage on Abaddon.. I can't remember whether Abaddons sword is always loyal to him though? I assumed it were with my mathhammer.. if not they're even more even..
Though I will admit I haven't taken a look at Abaddon's state before, so I have no idea what Marneus is up against, all I know are the outcomes I've observed.
That's 40 Initiative 5 attacks between 10 of them. Power Weapons. Thats before you add the 5+D6 Daemon attacks at Initiative 6
Wouldn't Abaddon technically have a Daemon Weapon with ALL of the versions of the god weapons?
Calgar has his 5 attacks (two powerfists means gets that bonus), rerolls to wound, 4+ save, 2 shot gauntlet of AP2ness.
Mathhammering: 5 attacks (2.5 hits), 2.08 wounds(2.43 after reroll), 1.22 wounds through.
Abaddon has his potential 10. Let's assume he rolls a 4 for extra attacks. So 7 attacks (3.5 hits), 2.92 wounds(3.40 after rerolls), 1.7 wounds through.
This is not counting any shooting, orbital bombardment, etc. Also assumes Abaddon rolls a 4, so adjust accordingly. If he rolled a 3 his end result would be 1.46 wounds.
Both are strong, just have different advantages.
Calgar has 5 attacks, hits on 4+ with rerolls. He'll hit 2.5 before and 3.75 after. Round to four
Wound on 2+ with rerolls. So he'll wound 4 times (I can't be bothered to work out decimals.) definatly after rerolls. again rounding up.
Abaddon will have 7 attacks and hit on 3+ (5.1) . So he'll hit 5. rounding down. All 5 will wound after re-rolls.
So Abaddon fails 2 and Calgar fails 2.5 so it should be a draw or a win for Abaddon. depending. Exact decimal places are completely unnessacery for dice.
2,160.. a turn from Abaddon
1,822.. a turn from Marneus
1,906.. a turn from Marneus and daemon backfiring combined..
Conclusion:
Taking initiative into account Abaddon would slaughter Marneus in two turns and only suffer 1,9 wounds in return.. this is however purely mathhammering.. in actual gaming Abaddon is too random.. a '1' on the daemon dice would likely result in him losing..
If Abaddon is actually immune he'd do even more wounds a turn and win even quicker.. still 2 turns average though.. but he'd only lose 1,82 wounds in return...
CHEERS for the uselessness of the almighty mathhammer..
Still people should keep in mind that the points cost for Marneus includes the optional pass/fail on morale checks and that he's a bit cheaper than Abaddon who does nothing for his army after all..
Nightbringer still pwns both ^_^ Enjoy~
Sorry, didn't see that Calgar WS kinda blows :P
Calgar gets AP2 bolter shots and will always get the bolter shots and the charge against Abbadon.
Win or Lose he can always fall back from the combat, abbadon cannot sweeping advance in terminator armor, and then resume shooting and get his bonus for charging as well.
Abbadon can roll a one for his deamon weapon, get slapped in the face by his over-sized sword and later get taught a lessen by Calgar about how stupid it is to bring an unstable weapon into combat. This happens rarely, but if Abbadon rolls a one and Calgar had already managed to take a wound or two off (mind you, Calgar's guns still need 5's to wound even though he has the re-roll) then Calgar usually takes down Abbadon.
Abbadon could also get to attack, but may not get enough attacks to kill Calgar outright, leaving him with a wound or two. This leads to Calgar surviving, and depending on how many wounds Abbadon has left, Calgar may or may not take him down. If he doesn't, then it all depends on what Abbadon does in the next phase.
And last but not least, Abbadon cuts down Calgar like he is some little girl. Rolling a 5 or a 6 to determine the number of attacks Abbadon gets means that Calgar will probably die outright, unless he is good at rolling invuls. This does happen a lot if Abbadon gets close to Calgar.
However, this is all based on single combat. If you are looking for a balance of a powerful fighter but also one that provides a good boost to your army, then Calgar definitely outshines Abbadon. The ability for all his units to pass or fail leadership tests is amazing, considering that if you lose in close combat but still wish to continue fighting, your units do not take armor saves since the leadership test was passed; the unit was not fearless, even if they hve the basic ability to act like one. Abbadon is purely a single power model, which means the best way to fight him is to not fight him at all. If you can keep your army away from Abbadon, then you have denied your enemy a good chunk of useful points. The ability that Calgar gives to the entire army should be enough to land him a spot on this list.
tho i think all the BA special characters are GREAT (cept tycho from a rule point) dante is prolly the best of em
Bolter Drill
Eternal Warrior
Chapter Tactics, stubborn for everyone
Bolster Defenses
Chapter Master w/ Terminator Armor = 165pts
Chapter Master = 125pts
Captain w/ Terminator Armor = 140pts
Captain = 100pts
Where did you get "few points (30) more" from?
Terminator Armor 40
Thunder hammer 20
Storm shield 10
thats 170pt
he is a Captain not Chapter Master.
He's not Vulkan or Khan, that you can build an army around the special rules they grant, but for sheer, hard killing power those 2 are definitely up there.
I like Khan on foot.. just not on bike.. on foot he can be fielded with a number of units to take advantage of his abilities.. on his overpriced bike there's really just a biked command squad (which is good.. just too few in numbers) and the assault squad (also considerable.. but I still think other units benefit more.. and he's way more versatile on foot).. okay whatever... I ended up discussing with myself.. fieldable both ways.. I just think it's stupid with the bikething.. ^^"
The only way he'll ever be able to use his bike fleeting is if he joins an assault squad who thanks to another character (Kayvaan) has fleet aswell.. (and the very special case SM mentioned below)
I agree with you that fleeting alone is mainly useless (getting to the objective and then assaulting that last squad of grots/gaurdians/gaunts sitting on that objective during the bottom of the 6th or 7th turn can be useful, but improbable)
The only problem that hit and run encounters with SM bikers is that they aren't dedicated assault troopers like the nob bikers are.
Plague Marines
A Chaos Lord with a Mark of Nurgle
Any Ork
A Daemon Prince without a Mark of Nurgle
Most Tyranids
List of things that Cassius has the same toughness as:
Hive Tyrant
Daemon Prince with a Mark of Nurgle
Greater Daemons (including Nurgle)
There's a lot more things on these lists, but I just wanted to throw out the things that to me stand out and make it sound ridiculous that Cassius is as tough as he is.
I still swear it's just a typo that no one at GW has noticed yet. I'm waiting for it to be fixed in a faq.
ie he is very hard to kill in real live so why not in the game?
Although his T6 is nice he is still just a Chaplain
with WS5 BS4 and a S4 power weapon. He gets owned in combat alot. A hive tyrant, deamon prince or greater deamons win everytime.
It just doesn't make sense, though, to have T6 and a rarity, yet only have 2 wounds like a chaplain.
+stubborn, sternguard, attacks and more
as for himself as a character, he sucks major testies
power fist and that weird storm bolter
Quoted for truth.
Creed? Shadowsun? Yriel?
None of them are that good at all.
Where's Sammael? A special character on a Jetbike who has a 3+/4+ save, immunity to instant death, BS5 Plasma Cannon, gives the entire army leadership 10 and 4 attacks with a master crafted power weapon isn't better than all of those above? None of the Phoenix Lords are better than those three? How is Tigurius who's a joke with his two wounds and no invulnerable save for 230 points on the list when Marnius Calgar isn't? Calgar is a monster in close combat, has some respectable shooting and allows your entire army to choose whether they want to pass or fail any morale check, that's a huge bonus. What about Kantor, giving +1 attack to every friendly unit within 12", making the army stubborn and counting Sternguard as scoring?
Sorry to say I think half of this list is kind of a joke,
But I think this point is moot, they are both powerful psykers, and it depends on the players playing: which 3 powers they are using against each other, and the overall way the battle has gone up to that point.
The Avenger is comparable to Wind of Chaos, with all of its attacks hitting, and w/ AP3, it takes away most normal armor saves anyway (does "template" take away cover saves, or must that be included in the weapon's profile?) + null zone makes them re-roll invuln saves. So I'd take it over Wind of Chaos, since it hits more often and has about the same AP (vs reg armor, invuln, and maybe cover).
Granted, Ahriman will be charging after that attack, but if he was going to be attacking Tigurius anyway, why didn't he just transform him into a lump of flesh?? oh wait, because Tigurius has a psychic hood, making it harder to use powers! =P
If you however consider Tigurius a librarian with two times the epostilary upgrade then he's a bargain..
I would however never waste my points on even a single epistolary upgrade (some people do though).. So to me it's 100 points on nothing.. would much rather field 2 vanilla librarians then..
Well well.. being a bit unfair to those who enjoy the librarians powers.. there's only 3 I'd consider.. primarily the Gate.. then Null-Zone can be awesome aswell and occasionally the Avenger.. none are SUPAH though..
Bloodcrushers can be almost impossible to kill with Fateweaver in range unless you have massed AP3 or lower weaponry. Greater daemons with a re-rollable 3+ or 4+ invul. save won't exactly die easily either.
Skarbrand is brutal in CC, but his "Rage Embodied" special rule benefits both parties making it potentially very risky to use if you run into an army that's also good at close combat.
I give you 5th edition's Lost and the Damned.
Let the galaxy burn.
Vulkan He'Stan - Chapter Tactic, Equipment. One could say that it's a support character from hell
Skarbrand - It's like putting Khorne in a Kiddy Shop
Nightbringer - The God of Death
Ghazghkull - I is toughy, me!
Abbadon - *Facepalm*
Typhus - *Facepalm*
Go ahead. Take him. I know that I would
Im sorry, but the amount of games I have won sheerly through the proper use of Logan Grinmar or Ragnar Blackmane is insane.
Both of them are amazing characters with amazing fluff and powerful rules.
They only fall short in having old models.
And I must say, even though I don;'t really care for them, I am shocked that Calgar isnt on the list.
As for pedro's +1A? Any honour guard unit can do that, and the guy holding the banner won't be the first one picked out with the powerfist like Pedro will be.
kacee, sorry, but the space wolf characters just don't do it for me anymore. I love the fluff, and Grimnar is a great model, the rules just don't cut it anymore. New codex will fix that i'm sure.
Lilith is a great suggestion, 4+ to wound and a 2+ invul makes her tough, and at 90 points. Trick is she's restricted to wych cult armies isn't she? I also like Vect, and I suppose since we opened it upto MCs (c'tan) then vehicles should be included
On c'tan, why isnt the deciever in there? I think he's more useful all round then the nightbringer is, and 60 points cheaper
He's a Ravager with Land Raider armor and lots of power weapon attacks, so I'm thinking he could go toe-to-toe with most named characters out there.
the first one is a battlebitch onpar with abbay and the nightbringer, the second the most potent short-range army buff and malneus very convenient (choose to pass lds tests).
...oh wait. Never mind! :D
And the reason eldrad should be on there is cause he has the best damn powers in the game. But i personally dont use him. Khan is actually incredible... but most people dont use him cause they dont want their special character on a bike... Oh and pedro is great, but because his save is 3+ he isnt worth crap... any char with a 3+ normal save doesnt deserve garbage. What about the pheonix lords... do they not count as name characters? And the space wolves characters deserve some respect as well... and Mephiston, mephiston outdoes Dante everyday... more expensive, but worth it.
Why the Gods tolerate him at all is a complete mystery to me...
Imperial Guard and commander of his very own Baneblade, enough said.
There's a tournament for 80 guys (5-man teams) in germany this summer. It's very competitive and the only limitations are the ban of the mentioned models.
For sure there are other potent IC in the dexes, but they are just A or C class. AAA is just for game breakers. =]
So by that Logic, why is Dante there. Mephiston is a more potent charater singularly, but Dante brings game winning ability to the table.
i took him out with the harlequin Solitaire guy (those chapter approved rules)
one turn and a one man elite unit took him down :D
who is far far cheaper than the nightbringer
nearly a quarter of the price
Probably the most imbalanced man in the 40k universe.. homegrown rules aside.. at least his soul is going to Slaanesh when he dies =)
There's a reason the Solitaire didn't make it into the new codex.
Hell, why not just claim you all killed him with "only" an Imperator Titan? Because that's a fair argument.
he's toughness 3
sure he has a 4+ inv save
but 10 guardsmen could shoot him down
My other suggestion would be Kharn the Betrayer, he's cheap and chearful with great attacks and brilliant combat prowess. Point for point i reckon him the best HQ option in the chaos codex (pretty much the same as an average lord or prince, points wise). It's just a shame i play Nurgle....
Kharns great though shame his invun is so bad
Nightbringer is similar, but eats through carniflex's armour like butter.
Lilith should easily be up on this list. There is only one model in the game that I refuse to engage in CC with Lilith, and thats Nightbringer. Only because he ignores Lilith's Shadow Field.
Everyone else, its rape time.
I personally prefer Grotsnik in a unit of 30 ork boyz (nob with Power Klaw of course) they have huge staying power, even if you dont give them cybork bodies
he also makes meganobz useful by giving them orky terminator armour
He will wipe the smile of any other character in the game, he will wipe out any unit in the game & whats more he will wipe out any vehicle in the game! I have seen the new guard codex today & while I must say Yarrick will be the IC of choice & is soooo over the top. Khan is the only one who is guaranteed to take out a wohle unit of 3 leman russ battletanks in 1 assault phase on his own.
Cant get better than that for 165 points.
He's not quite as much of a monster in close combat as Nightbringer but his abilities are much more far-reaching and support a Necron army and weaken the opposition much better than Nightbringer's melee ability.
I get to use Psychic powers. You do not. (Unless you want to have a 50/50 shot at a demonic attack)
Eldrad functions as a 10+ wound character, since he is always surrounded by a seer council.
Fortune and Doom are overpowered and way too flexible.
Mind War allows him to pick out sergeants/champions and heavy weapon troopers.
An additional point I would make is that I would put the Deciever on the list before the Nightbringer. He is just as tough in HtH against other characters, and his other abilities are just too nifty to ignore.
I'll round everything up here
He'll hit at the same time as eldrad and hit him or the council 6 times if he charged out of his 7 attacks. He'll then wound 5 times regardless. On Eldrad he'll pass 4 of the invuns maybe all 5 (3+ re-rolls) or the council will pass 4. (4+ re-rolls).
So that's one wound Or dead warlock. Eldrad has 3 attacks, hits 2 wounds 2. Kharn passes one invun.
The locks will then have between 8 and 16 attacks. Hit 4 or 8 and then wound 3 or 7 attacks. Kharn then fails 1 save or 2 saves. either losing combat or dying.
He had one wound, Creed/Kell charged, and Abaddon's daemon weapon turned on him dealing him a wound. While he was distracted, kell put the finish on him.
Also I'm not sure if it is right but I think Skulltaker should also be on the list. Anyone without Eternal Warrior/IK Immunity will got f***ed by him......His only weakness will be low T and 2W but people usually put him on a Jug/Chariot anyway. He's also dirt cheap.
As a Tau player I consider all their characters are just supporting roles------none are really powerful enough to take part in this contest. PLs shouldn't be missed though. I don't really care abouty SPESE MEHRINS anyway.
But it is the Prophet of the Waggh! ability that makes Ghazzy over the top. An entire army of orks with an 18" assault range and fearless for 2 player turns is simply amazing.
I've used it to destroy Knob Biker Lists.
Both affect their whole army's performance and both can thrash most other things in a 1 on 1 fight.......
Lysander probably edges it for being cheaper and harder to kill
BTW I don't play Eldar. He may not be top of the pile but he's definitely in the top 7.
Or what about Beliel that lets you take termies as troops or sammuel that lets you take Ravenwing as troops.
Or even blood angel ones like mephiston being ws and i 6 with a str 5 force weapon that can have a possible 8 attacks on the charge.
the rest are so far behind....1vs1 he would kill anything in any book
Too bad GW had a brainfart and forgot to include her in the codex, instead stuffing her in a WD article.