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If an opponent ever wanted to use a proxy, I'd be fine with that for two reasons:
1.) This hobby is expensive, and playing an exciting game is more important than the models on the board.
2.) As a glorious middle finger to all those people I grew up with who said proxies weren't allowed in tournaments so they weren't allowed full stop. It's my game so frak you.
Usually, I give a copy of my Army list to the other guy (unless he doesn't want one), and talk him through all the units I have, so he knows what is what. I once used a Chaplain to represent a Space Marine captain (although he was armed with a power weapon and a bolt pistol, just like the mini).
I've got a lot of "counts as" stuff too - I converted a sentinel with a missile launcher, multi-melta and storm bolter, and it belongs to my Daemonhunters as a Grey Knights Dreadnought. I think "counts as" is one of the best things going for the game.
That said, I don't really substitute much - I don't have legions of minis painted, but I play mostly small (1000 pts or less) games.
* Friendly "beer and pizza games" or club nights.
* Test games for a new list for a future event or tournament.
* During an event you are forced to proxy something due to a damaged model you was using that is beyond the time frame (or not at all) you need to fix it. Just make sure your opponent is aware of this.
* Apoclapse and Planetstrike fun games.
When it is not:
* Offical mega battles, events that are non RTT. The only reason why they should be as you see is to avoid confusion and chaos at an event that is already going to be full of chaos and crazy things.
* RTT, Ard Boyz and GT style events. Clearly you should have what you have on your list to avoid confusion and not cause delay to game play.
First off ... in a relaxed gaming group (like the group I game w/ on the occasional Friday nights) it can be SUPER laid back. I.E. Jack Daniel's Bottle = Monolith. I swear the flux arc range gets larger the emptier the bottle gets ...
In a tournament setting, obviously that's not kosher at all, but I do think proxying to a degree should still be allowed. Example: Every "flamer" in a space marine army is actually a "meltagun." That's proxying / counting as, but it's not weird or abusive or difficult to ascertain what's what.
That Patron Bottle is my Land Raider w/ Extra Armor and a Pintle-Multi-Melta, though? Let's keep that to Friday nights.
*cracks whip*
Paint you lazy bastards! =P
Proxying a GW model of similar design: a-OK (whirlwinds and Forge World Exorcists: Nearly identical except the iconography).
Proxying "varient" armies as another army (SM/CSM, eldar/DE, Ultramarines/Wolves/Angels, Brettonian/empire cav lists etc.)
Proxying an HQ choice with a model that looks appropriately cool in the same scale: a-ok
Proxying weapons loadouts across the army (AKA all infantry multi-meltas are Heavy Flamers): a-ok, especially if the bits are essentially redone molds (such as the Sisters of Battle MM/HF mold, which is what this rule is based on).
I never worry about terrain, only functioning models, subject to the detrius rule below.
Not OK:
Proxying models that look nothing like the appropriate models (guants for terminators)-- especially in a tournament game.
Proxying detrius -- coke cans as drop pods etc. Exceptions made for solid scratch building work or unusually appropriate/humorous stand-ins.
Painting is irrelevant--i want a fun game. Solid painting is appreciated but unnecessary.
its a hobby game - painting and converting mini's is what its all about - go play video games or checkers if you don't want to paint and model. and on the painting side - paint u'r minis! - play smaller point games if you have to - it takes away from the game so much when u'r opponent is fielding unpainted -
buddies and have painting nights rather then playing the game sometimes -
you'd be surprised how fast armies get painted up.
however if you know your opponent is just never going to paint his army
then it takes away from the game in my opinion. Its what u look for as a
gamer some are more into the hobby then the game and some the game more
then the hobby and some find a nice balance - It just comes down to who you
want to play against and what armies you enjoy facing off against. I
personally enjoy facing off against painted armies and to me it makes a
huge difference and makes for a more enjoyable game - knowing that I try my
best to present a equally appealing army for my opponents to enjoy. I just
recently started into fantasy and my first games were of a non painted army
as I learned the rules - now that I have the rules down I am busy painting
up a small force which my friends are doing the same, and we are starting a
campaign off of it we push each other to get our minis painted so we can up
the points of the games we play. Note I already have a 2500pt.army now im
going threw and painting up to core troops and calvary and a lord and then
I'll play again with that and only that until I get more painted. to each
his own I guess - if someone wanted to play me with their unpainted army I
would still def play them but I'd prefer it was painted.
I started playing 40k in 2nd edition - playing painted only was a bit easier then because the armies you played tended to be far smaller than today. We were a group of 4 people, and it was usually great fun when one or the other had finished painting a unit and was able to field it.
These days, especially for armies like Orks, IG oder Tyranid hordes, that's somewhat harder. Usually, for friendly games, I'd accept unpainted or proxied armies but would like to see other players at least make an effort to get their stuff painted. If someone were to show up with a completely unpainted or proxied army after a year or more, I'd probably lose interest in playing them. After all, bringing a painted army to the game is a show of respect for your opponent.
Amen to that!
We just don't have the money (At least $50 in the previous example) to drop. Even when we do, you can't plug all the gaps.
In apocalypse game we're good about keeping them to a bear minimum.
Small war gear, like melta bombs, we proxy freely and no one cares.
Also, its too tedious to make those things aIl magnetic, and too expensive to have doubles of things just to have different wargear like that. If someone were to complain, i would just say "and i bet you want me to model on my psychic powers too?"
It would be a nice addition in future rule books and codex's if they gave an idea of what are acceptable wargear items not necessary to be modeled on. I mean, who really has EVERY MARINE with frag and krak modeled on each one.
Oh yes, one more thing: FIRST! :D
Being an old rogue trader player I remember the days of everything was cut out from the back of the book
Methelas, don't type "first" nobody cares and makes you look bad.
When playing Fantasy, simply putting a movement tray down, which what's SUPPOSED to be on it written on a piece of paper has worked in the past. it's better if you have proxy models to go with (I have seen Dwarfs and Goblins rep. Flagalents or Chaos Marrauders quite nicely) but it is still best to put a note on top of them, reminding you what they're supposed to be.
I remember back in the day playing with two of my buddies and bumping up the Tyranid player from 1500pts to 6000pts with chess pieces and empty bases. But that was at our house not open gaming at a store.
We have on occasion called shenanigans on people tryig to pass off a stack of bits as a figure. Or a tissue box with LANDRAIDER written on the side. Although we did allow a cardboard cutout of a thunderhawk to proxie in one Apoc game.
I wonder the values for armor points.
That stops abuse of our generosity.
But I am OK with proxies, as long as I am told before what it is supposed to be.
And as for the unpainted models, I do prefer painted but I really like to play so if the option is not playing; then I am fine with unpainted figures.
And as I am also a slow painter I have a understanding for other slow painters.
I like my units to be good, not just OK. So I will rather spend some extra time painting then rushing the paint job.
Lego men for the win.
That is all.
And for those times when you just had to test a new vehicle, (like a forgeworld one) before buying it, then a similar sized non 40k vehicle was always best. (so the third landraider wasn't actually a vindicator causing the chance for a mistake in game)
I do it on occasion to try out new units/vehicles or so I can run a whole army as a counts as something else. (my squats counting as IG for instance)
With informal games I'm perfectly OK with my opponent using proxies for any number of reasons. I think it is an especially good idea if you are trying an army to see if you want to get serious with them. Considering that it will cost upwards of $1,000 (retail) to build a decent sized army, I can see proxying initially to see if you really want to go there.
In tournament situations, no proxying is really the only way to go. That way there is no question as to what you are facing. there is enough (self induced) stress in a tournament situation. You don't need the added concern that you've forgotten that the squad of guardsmen over there are really Strom Troopers! That could ruin your day.
I myself have used proxies when I forget minis at home - using a Warp Spider to represent a Wraithguard, for example. It's never been an issue.
I have no problem with counts as, so long as my opponent applies it consistently (ie, the guys with melta guns actually have flamers,) and with logic.
Using models from a different army to represent another is just silly, and I will refuse to play someone.
I have seen proxying get way out of hand. Like a regular looking tactical squad all of a sudden become a vanguard squad all with PWs.
I will never forget the time when CD cases were used as Trygons and Heirodrules......there were 5 of them, and a state as a bio titan.....I did not enjoy that game.
1) I'm trying something new in my army
or
2) Something broke, was forgotten, or is in the process of being built
In either of these cases, they're one-time uses anyway. But, if my opponent wants to proxy, be my guest. Just be clear about it.
My only request is the proxy is not from the same army, for then it is plainly clearly those 5 tyranid warriors jumping out of the LR are terminators..
As someone who predominately collects and paints GW models rather than plays them I just can't understand why on earth would anyone would willingly subject themselves to a game of WH40K, if they didn't have an interest in collecting and painting the miniatures.
More power to you but I just can't fathom why someone would bother under those circumstances.
No one at our LGS will ever let me forget using the Paper Dreadnoughts during the Medusa V campaign. I was just getting into 40k, didn't always have money to spend on miniatures, but I wanted to keep up with our escalation league, so I asked if I could proxy. I made a cutout of the dreadnoughts base and put the AV on it and ran it like a normal dreadnought. There were really no problems, I wasn't a good enough player to capitalize on the fact that sometimes my opponents forgot he was standing there since there wasn't actually a model, but it allowed me to keep playing the games and ultimately getting into 40k in the long run.
My local club used to allow proxies back in the 4th ed but that all stopped when some of the younger members started trying to field coke cans masquerading as Hive Tyrants.. ¬_¬
I am OK with proxies, as long as it is of similar size. I once played with a friend of mine that had a GD of Tzeentch, 2 heralds on chariots and 2 DPs as bare bases, even though he had the models (and had not glued them together) and the game was awful because it was hard to decide on TLoS on two shooty lists.
whenever it is important to make things clear (competetive play, mass-events) I dont allow proxies but coloured bases with a note saying what it is if it is an improtant modell that is missing because of above honest reasons.
i'm also cool with most reasonable "counts as" things like <my army doesnt use energy based weapons so all my infantry is carrying autoguns isntead of lasguns and all autocanon modells are firing speziel hi-ex charges and count as lascannons.furthermore the converted hip-held missile launchers count as meltaguns>.
what I DO loathe and never allow is cruelly done "conversions" which are only made to save money and look crap. this might sound arrogant but if you have neither the money to buy the apropriate modell nor the skill to scratchbuild it WELL you should have the honesty and just use a cardboard base of the right size with a picture of the modell on it an the note "I'm to poor to buy the original". have I yet said how I hate paper-reavers that get hit by a small breeze, fall over and ruin 1/3 of an apocalypse game? :P
This hobby is expensive and I would hate to see somebody waste time and money on a unit they'll never use because it's rules are crap or it doesn't fit their style of play or army.
but occasionally i do like to play a proper game, against a fully painted fully modelled army, on finished scenery. those are the games that should appear regularly on Pic of the Day. Those are the games i would be proud to take photos of and document as a batle report. not the ones with grey hordes or concrete tanks, or the cola-can dreadnoughts.
i think i would become a little annoyed if i had to repeatedly play against a cola-can proxy, i would start to question why we simply arent playing a smaller points value, or whether my opponent was even considering buying the model he was regularly fielding.
Do you think not allowing proxies encourages people to buy/paint their armies faster? Conversely, do you think that, by allowing proxies, you give folks who don't like to paint the excuse not to (or to be more procrastinating about it)?
The reason I ask is because I don't play games often (or at all lately), but whenever I go to the store I see people with swathes of unpainted models or proxies - and I can't help but wonder what would happen if someone said, "No proxies or unpainted models at your next game." I really wonder if they'd buy the actual model instead of ordering pizza that weekend, or buckle down and paint the squad of marines instead of watching TV.
Plastics are way better and I like that GW is moving towards them, but I don't think that wysiwyg should be enforced until every single model in the 40k range is easilly customizable (I can' model with green stuff, and I envy those who can)
My problem is when people use the 5th Ed line of site rules to break this...
For Example, Playing a fun game with a few friends of mine their team of Necrons and Nids Vs Marines and Guard. Just for a bit of a laugh but still it’s nice just to play a fun game follow the rules and play just to enjoy the game.
Alas, a friend was using a Nid Warrior to represent a Tyrant fair enough you think to start with but then 2 turns into the game I attempt to shoot a unit of Necron Pariahs (with lord on one wound) behind but still clearly visible with a good 2-3 inches. But then an argument in sued over the fact that this was a Winged Tyrant so I wouldn’t be able to shoot them (with a leman russ) as the wings would block line of sight (and of course without the model there we wouldn’t be able to work out visibility of the units) so in the end to try and relax the game play I went fine i will just shoot at another unit (even though all the rolls had been made as a hit on the unit), though felt slightly robbed of killing a unit which later didn’t effect the game, just made me think that proxying units makes the game a little exploitable with 5th ed rules...
So all in favour of Proxy but it’s a case of i feel it has further effects on the game... So in my opinion all winged monsters in proxy don’t have them flexing them see through wings.
Basically looking back on it now feels like it was a rule exploited... But doesn't matter just hope it never happens again.
If I were you the proxie would've been allowed for fun, but no wings equals line of sight to target.
"Problem is the guys I play with are very rules as written and it doesn’t say shooting past them at another unit that the wings would not count."
Once again, the wings were not there, how can they block line of sight?
Is there a referee to whom the players defer, or is the game paused and 'stunt-models' (units with the dimensions of whatever's being proxied) used and placed in the same location as the proxy so the players can say 'yeah, they can/can't be seen'? Or do y'all just play it by ear?
Proxies are great if they're justified:
"I want to try XXXX before shelling out the cash and see how it plays"
"I've just started out, and only have small army, so..."
"I forgot to bring my..."
What's not cool is unjustified proxies, for example players that have a full "drop pod" army using 8 plastic cups, and have been doing this for a year. Sure, you might not be able to afford 8 drop pods, but if you haven't even bought 1 in a year, you need to rethink your army.
Also, I don't like "abusive" proxies. If you're using a beermat as your rhino, don't give it every upgrade under the sun! Just keep it simple.
"Oh, no, that beermat has a dozerblade" - Not cool.
Also, give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. If he mistakes one proxy for another thing, let him take back a move, or give up a shooting round with that squad or something. It's probably because you didn't explain yourself properly.
Yes, I'm running a mostly unpainted army (about 1/3 of vehicles, less than 1/4 of the Marines are done... Out of 16 transports/tanks/walkers and a GW double transport plus), but I have a good start. EVERYTHING is black primed. Took way too many cans of spray primer, but it's a great place to start anytime I have an hour to pickup a brush.
Also, Since I LOVES me a drop-heavy list, I Proxy drop pods. Of course, I built the proxies out of consistent materials. A box for bulk rolled change (I use the penny size, myself), cut in half along the short dimension makes for an adequately Drop Pod shaped mass on the field of battle! Properly numbered (and eventually modded to look more like an actual DP and painted in Chapter Colors), they're a well accepted part of my local FLGS GW play.
Now there are things I personally don't care if people even have represented on their models such as frag/crack grenades and Melta Bombs. As long as they can show me it is on their army list I don't care if the model has it on. GW never supplies enough of the bits to outfit the models so why should the player suffer because of it.
similarly, if GW hasn't brought out the mini in question and you've got a reasonable alternative then that would be ok too. (basilisk for manticore, close combat armed dreadnought for ironclad etc).
At the end of the day the minis are only place markers to determine position and lines of sight. As long as the opponent isn't put at a tactical disadvantge because he's got no idea what he's facing then it's ok as a short term solution.
LOL bad joke sorry, but really i think if you put down a GW model that is about the same size then i am cool, i don't let bottle caps or paper dolls though, i draw the line at that.
I try not to use them as much as possible, but occasionally I will want to proxy a weapon on a dreadnought that I don't have, so I'll just stick a dreadnought in and say that assault cannon is a multimelta. I also will occasionally proxy some new units a few games before I take the plunge.
When choosing what I let my opponents do, I usually allow them to proxy a model or two. However, I'm getting to the point where I won't let them do it over and over anymore. If they want to run 3 vindicators game after game, they need to shell out the cash.
In Planet Strike, I have decided I won't let proxies go at all. The reason is that it's too easy to mismatch games when you bring 6 wraithlords to a game, and I'm just using models that I currently own. The point is to have a good time, not break me.
Number 1 is the cost. We don't have a lot of money to just throw around, so, I have to save up for a while if I want to buy a new land-raider. I'm not going to be keen on doing that unless I know I want it in my army (or at least as an occasional option).
Similarly, allowing proxies allows us to play some bigger games than we otherwise would. Not always, but every so often we want to play a massive game. We have enough marines between us to field at least 6000 points, but on the opposing side, my 1200 points of orks just doesn't cut it, so we hae to allow some proxying.
Wargear proxying is another one that is necessary in friendly games for us. The new marine codex came out, making melta guns totally awesome, but I don't have any of them, and to get the models (when I really, really, don't need a whole stack of additional marines) is very expensive. Also, when making up a new list to add a bit of variety, how often is there 5-10 points left that can be easily taken up with some melta-bombs, or a boss pole, etc.
I think, though, it comes down to these 3 things.
1) Everyone is ok with it, and we agree it all up front. Going through item by item. This guy with the lascannon is actually a plasma cannon, etc. And we always refer to them as what they are, and point it out often during the game.
2) We model things as closely as we can, and then appropriately as well. A "battlewagon" needs to be about the size of a real battlewagon. But, if I'm using a land-raider as a battlewagon, then that's how wide my "battlewagon" is, and it might not fit through all the gaps anymore. (My loss for not having the proper model.) We also use judicious amounts of multi-coloured blu-tack. Red blu-tack around a fist makes it a power fist, and string a blue blu-tack on a chainsword makes it a power-sword. That sort of thing. We use VERY bright colours, so they really stand out. Where-ever possible, too, we try to use another model that comes as close as possible to the right thing. I am often padding out my choppa boys with old-school Hero Quest orks. I've got hundreds of them, and they're orks, with a base approximately the right size, and they have hand weapons. As an aside, the Hero Quest treasure chests make excellent objective markers as well.
3) Finally, it works because we are not jerks about it. Seriously, for the people who say "I won't play someone who proxies something", you are missing out on some good games. Not everyone can afford that sort of luxury every game.
We have always had this view and from it were able to fine tune armies before spending hard earned cash to purchase (followed by precious time to assemble and paint).
BYE
In a casual game who honestly cares there is nothing at stake that being said I think that they should at least have a somewhat appropriate model IE: a tactical space marine but the person wants to substitute the bolt gun for a flamer or a melta. So long as he does something to help keep track of which one it is I fail to see the problem with it.
Proxie a weapon option that does not normally come with the kit. Working on a tau army myself and recently completeing my first battle force of them I ran across the problem of not having a way to turn the gun drones on the devil fish into SMSs eventually I will have to get some bits to change that but again so long as I do something to clearly idicate what its supposed to be I dont see the problem in simply calling the drones a SMS instead.
Tourny play: for the most part this would have to go into the WYSIWYG the exception ,at least in my book, would be things like grenades and melta bombs and such.I personally think they make certain models look dumb.
well thats my two cents
Ultimately, this is a huge gaming community, so there is plenty of room to play the game as you see fit. I'm more of an artist and enjoy, collecting and painting and some modelling. It takes a lot of effort, and other gamers appreciate it. There are a lot of time saving techniques that don't require months of meticulous painting. You really can't get around the expense, even on Ebay.
The funnest games for me are with painted armies on a painted table with painted terrain. Proxies get annoying sometimes when you're trying to remember what guy has what.
if you have a space marine captain,(made from the standard kit) and he's armed with a boltgun and a chainsword and want to count him with a pwoer sword,I'm okay with that
but if you take the same guy,and want to count him with a jump pack,thunder hammer,combi weapon and like 3 other things....just no
Or if the model doesn't have a bag, or meltabomb somewhere on him, you can always say your guys find a meltabomb on the floor conveniently :P
I don't mind if my opponent proxies occasionally, in fact it's usually a good idea to proxy units when you are starting a new army, to get a feel for the force and get to know what units you like.
Proxying with random objects annoys me though. No that aluminium can is not a drop pod. That tissue box is not a rhino. I don't think that mobile phone is a unit of blood knights... If you are going to proxy TRY and use models of roughly the same height/size (or it messes up LOS in 40k) and the same base size (For fantasy)
Rant over.
Likewise, I notice several people in the thread seem to feel that only GW models should ever be used once the army's completed, even though scratchbuilding is and always has been legal at the GTs.
My old gamestore in Fresno had very specific proxy rules for tournaments, the commonsense approach of allowing items of the same type proxy as others, as long as it was clearly marked. For example, an SM sergeant with a chainsword could count as a power weapon, but you had to have a note on the army list that it had been proxied and had to mark it somehow if it was the only such proxy in the army.
As far as grenades go, there was long a note - from 1st all the way through 4th - that grenades, psychic powers, special ammo, and the like did not need to be modeled for a force to be WISYWIG. For 5th, for reasons known only to GW, they omitted that note. Likewise, with Gw's reluctance to FAQ or errata to address known issues (Valkyrie disembarking and skimmer landing rules, anyone?) the RAW still technically mean that now in 5th you have to model psychic powers, special ammo, and other invisible wargear.. which is, of course, patently ludicrous.
I also have a bit of a longer view, as someone who's been in the hobby since the early 90's. There's been a general trend over the years away from the "cool conversions and hobby" side of the game, both on the part of GW and on the part of the playerbase, for years. GW's made it much more obvious over the last year, of course, by discontinuing bits, pulling "unneccessary" bits out of kits, and the like. This discussion AND the last two are all symptoms of the evolution, though. If a unit looks like ass and plays well, my fellow >hobbyists< and I are going to scratch, convert, or otherwise "proxy" it if we want to use it - and the tourney crowd is, by and large, going to slap 3 colors of paint on the official models and call it a day. Great models, ass rules? I'll often convert them to a more effective unit type, if I'm so inclined, or just paint and not use them. My AdMech army is a great example. Not having any rules at all = the ultimate in asstasstic rules, so I use them in a counts-as army, and have for the last 10 years as the army gradually expands.
All in all, I think proxying helps expand the hobby and the game, and far too many people are far too lawyerly about the game. Accepting a reasonable proxy is a mark of good sportsmanship that any, and I mean any player of 40k should be willing to make.
Still, every time I see a coke-can Carnifex, I die a little inside...
Just my thought for the whole thread !!!
To do otherwise is not only arrogant, but directly converse to what the hobby stands for.
This is only my opinion. It is not right nor wrong. It just is.
Second, proxies set a dangerous precedent. There is no way in hell I'm going to allow someone to put a model Evangelion or Mobile Suit Gundam on the table to count as a Titan or Phantom! Similarly, and somewhat in reverse, two of my mates have a Titan and Thunderhawk from FW respectively, and if I were to proxy a model to "count as" a Titan or Hydra battery to counter them utterly defeats the point of those units. If I utterly cannot beat a certain kind of unit, I'd rather ask politely that my opponent not field it until I could muster something to give me a fighting chance. I don't mind playing at a disadvantage, but I won't compromise the hobby to narrow the gap.
Lastly, in regards to smaller cases where they might be missing a firewarrior or something, then hey - I'm fine with that. I'll happily loan them one of my Stormtrooper models to represent their missing soldier, but I'd probably not be so happy about a tan coloured plastic army man...
I hate to be a snob, but GW is expensive. I've decidded a while back to stop complaining about price and just buy the stuff. I still can't help complaining though. If you can't afford it, why should others suffer by looking and playing against your proxies. It sucks. Proxies suck. If you have trouble buying the models, then you shouldn't be playing the game. Play Xbox, it's way cheaper
Do I actually have to have a Stikk Bomb on EACH ork model in my stikk-bomb equiped squad, or is just 1 or 2 ok?
Do I need to model melta-bombs?
What about Cybork bodies on my orks if I have grotsnik and EVERY boy is cyborked?
For me I'll proxy depending on the situation
Assembled/mostly assembled I'll bring them
Primed depends on if I have a unit that is "close enough" (identically geared SM unit for my CSM's
Started painting, oh yeah they are being proxied
Sealed at least once, I'll bring them and do touchups later.
No coins, dice, pieces of paper. I want a Model, even if you have to get one from a friend. Get a rhino and stick something on top to represent a whirlwind if you have to. Though I'm a bit nicer to orks, I'll let them take a model of "apropriate size" and count it as, I mean it just hasn't hit the mek's hands yet.
For fun play proxying is Ok, especially if your teaching a new player or experimenting with new units.
The most drastic I ever allowed was a kid very new to the game. I let him proxy an entire 1500 points with scraps of paper. This let him learn the rules, figure out what worked, and let him have fun until he could convince mom to dropped several hundred dollars on models.
Better that than insisting a 10 year old drop that amount of cash on plastic, then figure out the super fluffy army he dreamed about sucks giant donkey b@lls...he gets discouraged and you loose the future players that will keep the game alive.
"they are imortals right they got the big guns ... no man the ork boyz are necron imortals the parahas are the lootas and burna boyz.. i they were wraths ... no just the ones with purple pants ..." and then my brain explodes and leaks out my nose!
Personally i never use proxys, most of my armies are in the process of having their painting finished but the weapons/ gear on the model is exactly the points ive spent on them. At home/ friends places/ local club thats fine but i'd never take less than a fully finished army to a tournament.
Theres 2 reasons for this: 1) for me its about the atmosphere of the game, to look at the models and imagine the ferrocrete crumbing under the tanks tracks to hear the crack of bolter fire around the troops cover, the fog of war, the screams of the dying etc... and that is a lot harder to do when your looking at a tissue-box, a JD bottle and some chess pieces pushed around a few books on a coffee table. lol
The second point is; 5th eds 'true line of sight' and base size issues. On one hand a tissue-box is going to be bigger than a land raider so thats just tough the tissue-box has a greater chance of getting blown away. On the other hand i've seen a large kids toy T-rex used as a squiggoth in a tournament, they both look big and scary but the T-rex is tall not long so has a much smaller 'footprint' as table area so i could get less assault attacks against it.
comon for the ppl that say "i wont alow it at all" great anger all the ppl you play with and then have nobody to play with at all lol
the game is way to expencive to be like that unless in a tournament esp one run by GW
I don't care about Proxies myself, the important thing is to have fun, but I find it hard if its not consistant...
ex. This AoBR Dreadnought, the melta is a heavy flamer, the storm bolter is a flamer.... but this other AoBR Dreadnought is an Iron Clad Dreadnought with 2 CCW, and lastly this AoBR is a venerable Dread with ...
If there is something on them that differs them sure, but it gets hard remembering ... you shoot at one only to find out later that it wasn't the one you thought.
But if its uniform (All Dread's are armed with Heavy Flamers even though it looks like Melta Guns) I'm cool with that.
I remember when 1500 was the 'tournament standard' (in the UK at least), and 1000 points can make for a decent game. I personally find smaller games more enjoyable because they play faster and not being able to take all the troops you might want makes it more of a challenge. If you have more time, you can play another game :-)
The only game I've packed my stuff up and left the table was a store mega battle, I'd been asked to only field 10 death company ( I think it was 2nd or 3rd edition) and I charge a squad of 30 strong orks with what looked like shootas only to be promptly told, "oh yeah, these are nobz in mega armour" or some such, and I was completely dumb founded that he only thought to mention at that critical moment. The next turn the staff controlled orbital bombardment all "randomly" hit that one squad.
The group I game with either plays or hobbies almost every Friday night and we only play friendly games in the 4000 to 4500 point range and "proxies" or "counts" as are accepted, as long as they are clearly identified, while you test your ideas and strategies. Eventually we are all expected to have the correct model with the appropriate war gear.
Proxy ok “sometimes” (But with varying levels to the “extent” of the proxy; flamer vs. Melta-gun vs. a Post-it note)
My thought is along the same line, but with a twist;
Proxy once/one game is ok, but no more than once/one game. (Per opponent, and this goes for the opponent you play as well)
Why?
Because, proxy can lead to complacent players (the players just accept the fact that they can proxy “whenever they want” and never need to make a commitment as to what they; buy/build/scratch-build/paint.) This player always has time to “gimmick” a new army list (and try the new proxy), but can never seem to find the time to WYSIWYG, let alone paint a figure. (Again there are exceptions here)
Additionally, is “always” having to proxy really respectful or fair to your opponent? No, it is not your opponents responsibility to remember that “this is really that” in addition to remembering all the basis rules and the rules for his own and maybe his opponents armies.
So, I say once/one game is ok. (The varying level of the "extent" of the proxy would then become irrelevant)
1. Anyone i know proxy cuz their poor, not because they are lazy or dont want to buy models. If they are that way you probly wouldnt want to play them even if did have models.
2. You are a visual player and you play to see the armies on the field. Cant blame you there. good arguement.
3. If your problem with proxying is that people intentionally misrepresent units. Dont play doushbags. They give proxying a bad name.
4. Are there tournaments where people alow proxies? Ive never seen one that allows soda cans on the table in place of models. I was under the impression u had to have models to participate in tournaments.
Not ragging on anyone, just my opinion. Its a personal choice on wether you allow proxies or not.
1. Being too poor to afford models; interesting. But again, exceptions/excuses/reasons/etc. are abundant as to why one is using proxies. But, one excuse does not overshadow the other, the reasons and rationalities change from player to player and there is no right or wrong.
2. Visual player; When players play, do they constantly look at each other’s army list during every single turn in order to remember what is what? People are not computers and not all can keep track of “what is what” during a game “without” proxies being on the table.
3. Intentionally misrepresent units; Yes, this is reoccurring a problem. Maybe BoLS needs a Master Douche-bag list
4. Players play by the Grand Tournament rules, because if they did not, then “house rules” would be out-of-control and that would make scaring-up a game extremely difficult indeed. Ex; Witch Hunters/Sisters are a 3rd edition rulebook/codex (as are other codices and 4th ed as well) and if the GT did not say/allow players to field said armies then try to scare-up a game with one.
Bottom line for proxies; "Some/Most" proxies “can” make an already complex game more difficult. Forget arguing the “ifs-ands-whys-and what’s” the truth is the truth.
that innocent peace of terrane turnd out to be my opponant's uber proxie unit.
my opponant kept swiching the identety of said proxy.
my opponant is using cheep supstitute to represente a fully kitted out nob biker squad.
ther the infamous chaos rhino with multiple havok launcher passing it self off as an exorsist.
my opponant faild to inform me he was proxing a weapon or a holl unit type.
did i mention the cheep ass conversions for uber units?
now ther are some intances tha proxing is apceptable such as...
try befor you buy, id possible for a unit of similar type and cost , i have proxied my big mek shock attack gun for a kustom force feild and a landrader for a battlewaggon , just to try it out.
the mode is broken, WIP or forgot it at home, "am going to be proxing gaz for a while."
or if your short a couple of modles to round up a squad.
the modle dose not exist , it has been the case for years conserning the infamous drop pods.
note i am guilty of using non GW modles , have you seen my inquisitorial retenues ?.
i got so sick of tierd of seenig ppl use proxies for ther uber units it left be jaded on the wholl proxie isue.
At our shop, as long as whatever your using as a proxy is fairly obvious or memorable, it's fine, just show progress that some day you'll get the real model. My brother doesn't have the money, so for a few Carnifexes, he made cardboard bases and models that are the same size as a real fex and wrote on them what they have/are. No confusion.
I don't consider it disrespectful if someone wants to play against me with an unpainted/proxied list. I know I only have time to paint for money a total of 6 hours a week, if someone takes the game that seriously that they wont play me because of an unpainted army or proxies, they probably wouldn't be much fun to play anyway.
Personally, I try not to proxy, as I take a bit of pride in having a painted, correctly equipped army, and I also know that I'm apt to forget something if I proxy it.
Perhaps the worst example I ever saw was a guy here locally who used old Warzone figs to represent an IG army. I sure as hell couldn't tell what was what, and while I would necessarily accuse him of cheating, his lascannons had a disturbing tendency to pop up right where he needed them when they'd been in another squad the previous turn. I'd like to think that he had forgotten what was what, but regardless, I made the decision to never play against him again.
Mark
wysiwyg/"count as" shouldn't be an issue for minor things, like grenades, melta bombs, bits unavailable to properly represent wargear(flesh hooks for tyrants), for instance all codex space marines now come with frag & krak grenades, there's not enough grenades on the sprue to represent this so don't worry about it.
weapon loadouts that are rendered invalid by a new codex can go on for a while sure, but doing a weapon swap isn't hard, you can swap guns on marines pretty easily (I've had to alter my blood angels 3 times over 3 codex), even plastic dreadnoughts you can eventually model the right hardware, convert a plasma cannon with the devastator bit or likewise with a multi melta.
personally I prefer to have my army painted before I play with it, but it's perfectly understandable that "I just bought an awesome model, assembled it to the best of my ability, god dammnit I wanna play with it" but it does eventually need to be painted, for example the club I was in was pretty lax on painting, if it was primed it was fine, but they had a tournament at the same time every year and if a model wasn't painted, it wasn't allowed.
proxying/count as/unpainted shouldn't be a problem as long as there is the expectation that it won't always be the case. It's a hobby not a video game, and people should treat it as such. not everyone can be expected of golden demon quality armies, but they could definitely put in the effort to have something they're proud of showing their friends and opponents.