Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

redeye84 — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 02:13:27 -0000

Usually i accept proxies among new players. However i do use proxies to experiment with certain unit before i commit in buying them.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

David Padwick — Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:47:57 -0000

I am ok with proxying in order to try out a unit or army before you take the plunge and splash the cash. I myself am going to spend the next few weeks proxying 600pts of 40k daemons while I decide whether or not to collect. Few people can afford to spend money on models that may only get used once.

On the flip side, I did once let a friend proxy a ceramic rabbit as a hive tyrant and an elephant as a carnifex..... strangest hive fleet I ever saw!

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

James — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:04:21 -0000

To summarize, you've been played.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

James — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:02:37 -0000

You don't have to "model" to convert metals. You just use GS to act basically as a glue itself. This is what I did when I started out, and it covers up fine with some effort. GS makes ANY model convertable.

Also, you shouldn't complain about GKs, at least they have models for their weapon options.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Torhwood425 — Sat, 12 Sep 2009 09:06:05 -0000

My group of friends allow proxies for things like forgeworld models in apocalypse games and wargear but if every game you play someone and instead of using 3 carnifaxs they use a dvd a calculator and a book then they are taking the fraging mick

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

martianboy — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:14:27 -0000

oh and conversions should be encouraged, quality scratch built or creative modelling to represent a special character, for instance using the space marine commander kit to make a shrike stand in so that it better fit with your army, or in a month you scratchbuilt a wolfhound titan out of plasticcard? totally go for it. original conversions make the game so much better, and should be encouraged.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

martianboy — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 22:07:19 -0000

I'm not a fan of proxying but sometimes it's unavoidable, like what alot of other people said, sometimes new people to the hobby, can't afford that new model yet, try before you buy. I do have issue with people taking advantage of my good will though, so any proxies that have been on the table for over 3 months are a nono. you've had 3 months worth of wages to save, buy the model.

wysiwyg/"count as" shouldn't be an issue for minor things, like grenades, melta bombs, bits unavailable to properly represent wargear(flesh hooks for tyrants), for instance all codex space marines now come with frag & krak grenades, there's not enough grenades on the sprue to represent this so don't worry about it.

weapon loadouts that are rendered invalid by a new codex can go on for a while sure, but doing a weapon swap isn't hard, you can swap guns on marines pretty easily (I've had to alter my blood angels 3 times over 3 codex), even plastic dreadnoughts you can eventually model the right hardware, convert a plasma cannon with the devastator bit or likewise with a multi melta.

personally I prefer to have my army painted before I play with it, but it's perfectly understandable that "I just bought an awesome model, assembled it to the best of my ability, god dammnit I wanna play with it" but it does eventually need to be painted, for example the club I was in was pretty lax on painting, if it was primed it was fine, but they had a tournament at the same time every year and if a model wasn't painted, it wasn't allowed.

proxying/count as/unpainted shouldn't be a problem as long as there is the expectation that it won't always be the case. It's a hobby not a video game, and people should treat it as such. not everyone can be expected of golden demon quality armies, but they could definitely put in the effort to have something they're proud of showing their friends and opponents.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Name — Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:10:00 -0000

try brik wars, really entertaining pretzel and beer mini game using lego

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

RexScarlet — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:02:34 -0000

Good points D0A

1. Being too poor to afford models; interesting. But again, exceptions/excuses/reasons/etc. are abundant as to why one is using proxies. But, one excuse does not overshadow the other, the reasons and rationalities change from player to player and there is no right or wrong.

2. Visual player; When players play, do they constantly look at each other’s army list during every single turn in order to remember what is what? People are not computers and not all can keep track of “what is what” during a game “without” proxies being on the table.

3. Intentionally misrepresent units; Yes, this is reoccurring a problem. Maybe BoLS needs a Master Douche-bag list

4. Players play by the Grand Tournament rules, because if they did not, then “house rules” would be out-of-control and that would make scaring-up a game extremely difficult indeed. Ex; Witch Hunters/Sisters are a 3rd edition rulebook/codex (as are other codices and 4th ed as well) and if the GT did not say/allow players to field said armies then try to scare-up a game with one.

Bottom line for proxies; "Some/Most" proxies “can” make an already complex game more difficult. Forget arguing the “ifs-ands-whys-and what’s” the truth is the truth.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Mark — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:30:45 -0000

We generally allow proxies for smaller stuff; i.e. a meltagun is really a plasma gun, etc., or having a squad equipped with grenades even if they're not on the model. For bigger things, there 's no problem if soneone wants to try something out before dropping a good chunk of $$ on it, especially during friendly games.

Personally, I try not to proxy, as I take a bit of pride in having a painted, correctly equipped army, and I also know that I'm apt to forget something if I proxy it.

Perhaps the worst example I ever saw was a guy here locally who used old Warzone figs to represent an IG army. I sure as hell couldn't tell what was what, and while I would necessarily accuse him of cheating, his lascannons had a disturbing tendency to pop up right where he needed them when they'd been in another squad the previous turn. I'd like to think that he had forgotten what was what, but regardless, I made the decision to never play against him again.

Mark

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

PS_WAAAGGHHH — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:55:20 -0000

I've got a lot from my childhood. So free for me ^^.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

metalstorm4786 — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:48:56 -0000

I can understand not wanting to play against a bunch of change, empty bases or random junk to represent models...but what about in some cases, where there isnt even a model made for a unit? Seekers of Slaanesh? Unless you want to put out some serious cash to get those on Ebay, you have to proxy them or make conversions. If you're like me, you work 40+ hours a week and go to school which doesn't leave much time for regular painting, much less converting.

At our shop, as long as whatever your using as a proxy is fairly obvious or memorable, it's fine, just show progress that some day you'll get the real model. My brother doesn't have the money, so for a few Carnifexes, he made cardboard bases and models that are the same size as a real fex and wrote on them what they have/are. No confusion.

I don't consider it disrespectful if someone wants to play against me with an unpainted/proxied list. I know I only have time to paint for money a total of 6 hours a week, if someone takes the game that seriously that they wont play me because of an unpainted army or proxies, they probably wouldn't be much fun to play anyway.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

shadowsilver03 — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:50:34 -0000

Size is important in proxies for me. I don't mind if opponents proxy land raiders and the such as long as the proxy is roughly the same size (a friend uses his dice box as an extra rhino sometimes, as it is roughly the same length and width). And of course, it's fairly common to see the "all special weapons are heavy bolters/plasma cannons/etc" or "all power fists are power weapons" proxies, as no-one likes breaking models apart just to change the loadout.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Hunter — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:44:31 -0000

I have had some horible experiances with proxing players such as...
that innocent peace of terrane turnd out to be my opponant's uber proxie unit.
my opponant kept swiching the identety of said proxy.
my opponant is using cheep supstitute to represente a fully kitted out nob biker squad.
ther the infamous chaos rhino with multiple havok launcher passing it self off as an exorsist.
my opponant faild to inform me he was proxing a weapon or a holl unit type.
did i mention the cheep ass conversions for uber units?

now ther are some intances tha proxing is apceptable such as...
try befor you buy, id possible for a unit of similar type and cost , i have proxied my big mek shock attack gun for a kustom force feild and a landrader for a battlewaggon , just to try it out.

the mode is broken, WIP or forgot it at home, "am going to be proxing gaz for a while."

or if your short a couple of modles to round up a squad.

the modle dose not exist , it has been the case for years conserning the infamous drop pods.
note i am guilty of using non GW modles , have you seen my inquisitorial retenues ?.

i got so sick of tierd of seenig ppl use proxies for ther uber units it left be jaded on the wholl proxie isue.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

gryphonsden — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:59:34 -0000

I say proxy is fine for those new to the game and for those starting a new army. The game has gotten to expencive not to let people try things out before spending the money. On the same coin though if a guy has 4000 points of an army yet still proxies at a 2000 point level there is something wrong. some of the chalange of wargaming is to use what you got to beat the enemy. Not to look at the guy across the table and proxy the models that will make it easier to win. If you own the models go ahead but after a while its gets tireing to play against armies that are unfinished and represented by god knows what.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

TheGuyWhoNamedTrooperManson — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:05:07 -0000

...isn't this what Vassal 40k is for? o.o

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

D0A — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:58:58 -0000

Just some random comments

1. Anyone i know proxy cuz their poor, not because they are lazy or dont want to buy models. If they are that way you probly wouldnt want to play them even if did have models.
2. You are a visual player and you play to see the armies on the field. Cant blame you there. good arguement.
3. If your problem with proxying is that people intentionally misrepresent units. Dont play doushbags. They give proxying a bad name.
4. Are there tournaments where people alow proxies? Ive never seen one that allows soda cans on the table in place of models. I was under the impression u had to have models to participate in tournaments.

Not ragging on anyone, just my opinion. Its a personal choice on wether you allow proxies or not.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

RexScarlet — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:23:49 -0000

General consensus of this post is;

Proxy ok “sometimes” (But with varying levels to the “extent” of the proxy; flamer vs. Melta-gun vs. a Post-it note)

My thought is along the same line, but with a twist;

Proxy once/one game is ok, but no more than once/one game. (Per opponent, and this goes for the opponent you play as well)

Why?

Because, proxy can lead to complacent players (the players just accept the fact that they can proxy “whenever they want” and never need to make a commitment as to what they; buy/build/scratch-build/paint.) This player always has time to “gimmick” a new army list (and try the new proxy), but can never seem to find the time to WYSIWYG, let alone paint a figure. (Again there are exceptions here)

Additionally, is “always” having to proxy really respectful or fair to your opponent? No, it is not your opponents responsibility to remember that “this is really that” in addition to remembering all the basis rules and the rules for his own and maybe his opponents armies.

So, I say once/one game is ok. (The varying level of the "extent" of the proxy would then become irrelevant)

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

King_Wibble — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:07:08 -0000

What if you have built your army and the codex changes and most of your models are no longer rules legal? Would you proxy war gear or buy replacement models, paint them all up and store the old models in the loft hoping the codex changes again?

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

King_Wibble — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:02:41 -0000

I unfortunately have to use proxies thanks to GW re-writing the codex for Space Marines. Now you can't take the trait to field meltaguns and flamers in my squads, my tactical marines are all completely useless and have to say, its a multi-melta. Luckily most people say that's OK because it at least kinda looks like the gun that it should. As for the rest of my army I play WYSIWYG because it's easier to remember what I have plus how cool does a mini look with grenades strapped to it, or a spare bolt pistol? If my friends want to play proxies I'm OK with that as long as it balances the armies. For example, he lacks terminators but in a game where they are kinda handy, I would say, sure go for it. I want a fun game, not to trample over them because they don't have the right army for the job. As long as it isn't a whole army of them proxy away!!!

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Bobcloclimar — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:17:47 -0000

Erm, a standard base is almost exactly the size of a US quarter. Dimes are way too small to use in 40k.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

oni — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:12:19 -0000

NO PROXIES, NO EXCEPTIONS!

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Phalanx — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:10:45 -0000

I'm primarily a gamer and I enjoy different strategies and things like that. Personally I don't mind putting together models (and converting can be fun, though its pretty difficult when you don't have much hand coordination like I do), but personally I hate painting. Loath it. But I love the game. Things such as smashing a pair of dreads with a CC godfex is fun. Some people prefer to just put together and paint models, some people just want to play and go out and buy painted armies or pay others to paint it for them. You don't need to enjoy the modelling part to enjoy the game just as you don't need to enjoy the game to enjoy the modeling aspects.

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

heartbitt — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:59:09 -0000

"There's a distinction a lot of people are failing to make in this thread between honest "counts-as" and proxying."

Just my thought for the whole thread !!!

Re: DEEP THOUGHT: To Proxy or Not to Proxy?

Bomster — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:33:41 -0000

Well, had it been a Lictor it would be acceptable for it to camouflage as a soda can. :)