DISQUS

relasine · 11 months ago

Sounds like a great design exercise. I'll start banging my head against the wall.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 11 months ago

These tricky Fly Lords have really thrown the gauntlet down on this one!!

You present this as one design challenge but in fact it is two!!

We need to come up with this rules set (I think the anphilion base rules from IA 4 might transfer over pretty well) but we also need to build glorious ship like boards on which to put these rules into effect.

Very clever of you =)

BP · 11 months ago

actually, myself and a few university freinds do these quite often to add some spice to Battlefleet Gothic games.

the BFG players will play as normal, but with boarding actions decided by 40k engagements. the surrounding play tables are assigned a planet on the BFG board, and should something happen to the planets, it gets reflected appropriately on the table, makes for a very interesting saturday :)

the rules we use for boarding actions are pretty simple, since its usually cruiser-size vessels.

1) 1000pts limit.
with all the narrow corridors any more becomes cumbersome, but armies that don't normally do well on the small scale (IG) become irrelevant as they are never usually the ones dealing with boarding actions (either the cruiser rams or its SM players)

2) no heavies, nothing on large bases, no exceptions.
this is again to fit the scale, since a carnifex or dreadnought would have a very difficult time dealing with the hallway sizes it was decided to simply not allow anything on that size base (INCLUDING THOSE PRECIOUS DEMON PRINCES! yes, that means you max!)

4) nothing that uses a flying base (tau battlesuits are effectively covered by both 2&3)

3) anything that would normally be a 10+ man squad can use the combat squads rule, regardless of what. (IG, fire warriors, you name it) if the squad is exceptionally large (i.e. gaunts) then they may split into more than 2 squads

4) std force org is 1 troop, 1 HQ

5) terrain should be about a 4x4 to 4x6 board, with appropriately modeled hallways and rooms, maybe a hangar bay area assuming the boarding party isn't using an airlock.

6) missions are as normal, with the objectives represented by ares on the board rather than placed, and count as the ships vital systems the boarding party is to destroy/neutralize/take and hold, annihilation would represent an attempt to capture the ship intact.

7) the attacker may get reserves from the entry point only, the defender cannot use reserves, no modifier rules apply.

8) doors may be sealed, and are treated as armor 10, any damage result is counted as a breach

9) optional rule - backblast. since fragmentation and other explosive weapons become much more concentrated and forceful in small confines, any model within 3 inches of a fragmentation blast take a wound on a 6, saves allowed from the point of blast, and any models under the template suffer the attack at +1 strength

10) scatter - there is no scattering through walls!!!! don't even try it!


these rules generally lead to some exciting games, and were drawn mostly from space hulk and cities of death


enjoy.

BP · 11 months ago

one thing I forgot that is race specific, any IG or fire warriors may take lascutters to bust the doors open, (see IA4) or simply treat them as being able to shoot the locks out. (unless they roll entirely ones)

Folkert · 11 months ago

When using rule #4 you run into a problem, terminators also have large bases these days and aren't they supposed to be the #1 at boarding actions (Space Hulk comes ot mind)

Folkert · 11 months ago

damn I meant rule #2 X(

user@example.com · 11 months ago

Nothing on large bases? What about Terminators? They have something of a history of boarding actions...

I'd add an extra Elites slot to the chart.

BP · 11 months ago

by large base I meant the size the dreads and carnifexes use,

the size the warriors and termies use is acceptable (forget the dimensions as of right now)

Stelio · 11 months ago

I think you mean bases up to 40mm bases are fine then, and that 60mm bases are too big.

sxoa · 11 months ago

Except that dreads are specifically mentioned as being used in boarding actions

Lord · 11 months ago

OK, but if you are in a small cruiser, it is unlikely that you will send a missile launcher/lascannon dread onboard a ship. Also, with dreads being relativily rare, it is unlikely.

therefore I would change three rules:

1) Allow Dreads/ Carnifexs in games over 1500 (so not 1500, but yes to 1501...)

2) no excessivly large weapons (orbital bombardment)

3) no ordanance or (old) guess/indirect fire weapons.


These are all self explanitory, and would make it slightly better!

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 11 months ago

Tau Crisis suits are mentioned as well in boarding actions.

Not that the Tau Empire would be particularly keen on waltzing into the middle of a multi chapter space marine civil war though so its not a big deal.

CT · 11 months ago

What about bikes? It would seem weird to have bikes riding up and down the corridors. It should be limited to 'infantry only' instead of base size.

I like the idea of monsterous creatures and walkers being allowed. The fact that they can't fit through narrow spaces would be a fair enough balance. My exception would be the Defiler and a 'no ordnance' rule would cover their exclusion.

Also, in the interest of preventing hull breach, should there be a limitation on ranged weapon strength. Maybe nothing over strength 7?

So my idea of a simple army build would be:
- 1000pts; standard FOC with a minimum 1 HQ & 1 troops.
- Infantry and walkers only.
- No ordnance or ranged weapons w/ strength >7.

Culial · 11 months ago

"Also, in the interest of preventing hull breach, should there be a limitation on ranged weapon strength. Maybe nothing over strength 7?"

Wouldn't that discount (Multi-)Meltas and power Firsts?
Because to me, they seem custom-made for getting those pesky security-sealed hatches open...

I'm a bit torn over the "Infantry only" bit though, bikes I agree with, but a Thunderfire cannon would OWN in this type of game
:-P
And there's always the Cyclone factor too...
Terminator Sgt. "We need this door open!"
Cyclone Termine "Done."
:-D

Conrad · 11 months ago

A way around the "hull breach" thing is to state that you can't take any HEAVY weapons over strength 6. Meaning you can still take heavy bolters, assault cannons etc but not multi-melta's and lascannons whilst still having the powerfists and meltaguns which are more "controlable".

Denzark · 11 months ago

Any tabletop weapon will simply bounce off the hull, even the windows! Excepting weak spots like hatches.

As if handheld wepaons would damage anEmperor Capital Ship for pete's sake

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

You are joking, one supposes. A hull breach does not have to be an enormous hole to be devastating. Something the size of a pinhole with naught but vacuum on the other side would still be horrifically deadly.

RTM · 11 months ago

As a Ph.D. in applied physics, I can assure you that the answer is "not really". Decompression really isn't that bad, especially if it's slow, like from cracks or small lascannon holes. Your average pulp movie from the sixties was more accurate about it than your average pulp movie from the eighties.

Anon · 11 months ago

On the other hand, someone getting sucked through the hull is functionally a casualty in 40k terms, dead or not.

However, I just can't see a hull breach happening with 40k-scale weapons, excepting the S9/10 or Lance range. The hull is designed to absorb Apoc-scale weaponry and survive, and most of the engagements will be taking place away from the hull anyways (except for any initial breaching actions, of course).

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

RTM - I am not talking about explosive decompression (which would be bad but unlikely unless you were throwing Melta Weapons around), at least not right here. A couple of pin pricks would cause the pressure in a small room to drop significantly.

Also, what about Warhammer 40,000 is not pulp? Are you expecting actual workable physics in this game? Seriously, you are talking about a boarding action on what amounts to a flying cathedral with thousands of windows. Cinematics and storytelling are the keys to this universe, science is busy laughing its head off in next room.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 11 months ago

Although Space Marines in power armor are supposed to be able to fight in a vacuum so I doubt a small hull breach would even slow them down.

It shouldn't be that big of a problem for them.

There are in fact even 5th edition rules for fighting in a vacuum. On pg. 271 of the large 5th edition rule book it states:

"Combat in a vacuum is a lethal affair, for even glancing strikes may puncture air tight suits and cause explosive decompression before self-repair systems can contain the damage.

Models with more than 1 wound on their profile lose not one but D3 wounds when they suffer an unsaved wound. All attacks, both shooting and close combat, use the rending rule."

I think this could add a lot of flavor to parts of the board where hull breaches have taken place. Maybe even have rules for bulkheads sealing off breached sections of the board during the game =)

CT · 11 months ago

That's why I limited it to 'ranged' weapons; meaning any weapon with a range value in it's statline. ;)

I wouldn't limit grenades or close combat weapons since they are more likely the weapons of choice for boarding parties.

I choose strength 7 to limit melta weapons and lascannons while allowing assault cannons, autocannons, heavy bolters, etc. To me, anything stronger and a misfire would blow holes in the ship. Especially if a door is armor value 10 (mentioned above in BP's post).

Bigred · 11 months ago

BP, That is some good work there. Please keep exploring these guys.

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

Do we have 2 email them 2 u

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

Oh yeah i see sorry

BP · 11 months ago

thanks!


alot of what has been posted in this thread has been tried, and really it all results in a set of rules that gets far too complex.

5th edition may not be perfect for the open tabletop, but when you throw it into a board set up for boarding actions its amazing how many situations are easily covered by the 5th ed. rules.

the reason we don't limit weapon strength is because the troopers would obviously know what they were aiming at to some extent, and if it takes a lance battery (i.e. bigger than a shadowsword gun) to rip the hull open then meltas shouldn't be that big of a deal. also some armies need the heavy/specials to stand a chance in CC (hardened vets with 3 PGs are the only IG ive ever been able to kill termies with on these boards)


AV12 blast/security doors might be an Idea though, will have to playtest it.

Culial · 11 months ago

I like some of what IA4 did with close-quarters/corridor fighting:

Cover Saves
-No cover saves in corridors.
-Low save in rooms (alcoves, ducking behind furniture, etc)
-High Save at junctions/corners (it is a solid wall after all!)
-No cover saves against blast weapons
Assaults
Stand & Fire - forgo attacks back in exchange for using shooting attacks against charging foes (don't like the IA4 'resolved at double Models Initiative, normal Initiative makes more sense, but that's just me)

Now for my $0.02:
-Small games/low points limits. Like 750 max (for attackers)
-Attackers always out numbered by 1/4 attackers points (there's going to be more defenders, it's their ship! but they wont all be able to get the the breach in time)
-No 'Large Blast' weapons, flamers and small only, the large just seems like a bad idea...
-60mm based models allowed in wide corridors (main thoroughfares) or docking bay type rooms (love the idea of a Dread holding a stretch of corridor on his own!)
-Use common sense with models, like a 'Fex or Tyrant (not sure what they're doing at Badab, but still...) would maybe be a bit large, whereas Dreads should be able to move around their own ships, and Deamon Princes (were there any at Badab?) and Greater Deamons would be powerful shock troops to have on your side, but would they be able to move freely? Most likely not, if you think about it...can you really see a 'Thirster crawling around on it's belly?
-Maybe adapt the Sewer Rats stratagem to represent air ducks...sounds fun, but never played CoD so not sure how it works...
-Last off, an adaption of the IA4 shooting rules, maybe give multiple shot weapons a better chance to Hit, given the likelihood of ricochets, etc. in a cramped environment?

Anon · 11 months ago

Stand & Fire - double Initiative means that the defenders get shots off before getting hit, which is a tad more realistic (and more viable than just doing shooting in CC).

Multi-shot To Hit increase: I think the last thing you want is increasing an Ork's To Hit =O).

Moj · 11 months ago

Couldn't large creature count narrow passageways as difficult terrain to represent them needing to stoop etc. unless they are clearly too narrow then impassable, it would just take an agreement of what terrain is what like you should do in a normal game.

LEGION3000 · 11 months ago

This is all assuming the insides of the miles long spaceships are filled with tiny narrow corridors based on the space hulk game. I would ignor space hulk as it is really more of a conceptual board game than anything.

All the art in the BFG and other books show enormous halls filled with machines and people like massive gothic cathedrals. I think the only constraint on size would be the craft that transport the boarding party. Whatever could fit into a boarding torpedo or even a thunderhawk should be fair game.

Mac · 11 months ago

I'm drawn to Rule 2) "no heavies, nothing on large bases, no exceptions."

With regard to heavies, do you mean no picks from the Heavy slot? or no Tanks etc?

Purely from a SM point of view, and I'm sure others can help me out with other races/codices, but I would have thought a Devastator Squad would be an essential addition in holding corridors, creating crossfires etc.

I'm unsure why Tau Battlesuits are excluded because of their jump-packs. I assume that Raptors and Assualt Marines are allowed? They can after all move normally and although realism would suggest low narrow corridors, GW literature does not.

Rule 7) Why can the defender not receive reserves? Surely the captain of the ship or commander of the troops would move squads in to position as required..especially if it appeared the battle was being lost.

Rule 9) as an optional rule maybe it should apply in small areas...a grenade going off in a hanger is not going to have the same concentrated effect as one in a small room or tight corridor.

Stelio · 11 months ago

That's interesting. I see on the teaser map that you're using the modern chapter symbol for the Sons of Medusa rather than the symbol that was used at the time of the Badab War (looking back at the Compendium). Does that mean you'll be using the white helmet and bright green colour scheme rather than the dark green / desert camo colour schemes as well? :-)

KINGS · 11 months ago

The guys painting the Son's of Medusa Chapter are using bright green with white helmets. However they are also going to paint their Sternguard the drab desert camo colors.

~kings

Stelio · 11 months ago

Cool, thanks for replying. That's interesting to know. I'd have gone for the old dark green myself, but I also have the luxury of a bunch of mark 6 armour models from back in the day. (And I was only asking since I always planned to make them into Sons of Medusa myself.)

I suppose using the modern colour scheme and chapter symbol will make them more recognisable to current players, and make the painted models usable in other games too. :-)

Pass on my regards the "the guys". Have fun with it and good luck!

FiscalHermitCrab · 11 months ago

I think the game should start off with reserves and the like. The attackers coming in from one side of the board representing the attack crafts latching and and coming in. Have a sort of Thin Black Line rule for the defenders as well showing that they have to come in from elsewhere in the ship as well.

No vehicles, obviously, but walkers would still be good. You could have main thruways that walkers could go down, but side passages only infantry could, allowing you to flank them. There could be something like airduct lines as well that either only infiltrators could use (giving them some after deployment use) or someone with a certain armor save or higher could use, e.g. 5 or 6+.

You could have set objectives that tied into the BFG games as well. Like a plasma core, lance battery, docking bay, that sort of thing and if you destroy them the enemy takes a that sort of penalty in space. Say if you were to destroy the engines, they could only drift, or they couldn't use a lance after it's been blown up. That could work really well against a Space Marine Chapter Master or an Inquisitor, making it so they can't call in orbital strikes.

As far as setting the charges though, you couldn't really detonate them right next to the plasma core and expect to survive. So you could have either remote detonation, or timed, like you have 3 turns to get to safety. The opposing player could also have a chance to defuse them as well, as a leadership test (techmarines, engineseers, and the like would get bonuses to defusing, maybe farseers and possibly other psykers too stating that they can see into the future and know the best possible outcome and how to get there), so you could either hope they don't get there in time or you could sacrifice some people to hold the area until the charge goes off.

Maybe opening up the availability of high powered bombs to sergeants and heavy weapons troopers. That way the objectives could have more than one structure point and the attackers could set more than one explosive on an objective. That's all I got for now.

Yamagon · 11 months ago

Board set up:
Various rooms should be modelled representing various rooms of the ship. The best way to do this is to have a one foot by one foot tile with walls (or stilts) that allows the rooms to be stackable. Ramps allow access. Each ship assault mission only represents a battle of a part of a ship. Domination of a ship requires minimum of 2 Battles. Lightning assault and Forward Push. Each is 1000pts (as described in an earlier post), and consist of a minimum of 5 rooms.

Mission types:

Lighting assault: Attacker and defender. The defender owns the ship, and sets up the board. The attacker's units all come on reserve, 50% arrive on turn 1. Units may assault. Place a small blast marker where the unit will arrive (towards a wall) representing the melta charges and frag explosions. Units under this marker are wounded on a 4+. Place the unit at the wall. The winner is the player with the most rooms under control, controlling the feature in each room.

Forward push: Once the attacker has pushed his way to fight for major control over the ship. It is essentially a mission where both sides must attempt to take the opponents controlled room... a base if you will. The defender's room is the cockpit while the attacker's room is a small strong hold. Each is fortified in someways... barricades prehaps? Each army is deployed in the strong hold, any excess come on from reserves, same way as Lighting assault.

Various rooms should have simple rules.

Plasma Core: Small terrain feature that has an armour value of 12, representing the plasma core itself. Any penetrating hit effects the power levels of the entire ship, and as a result, damaging it forces night fighting rules into effect.

Lance Battery: Another small terrain feature (or several) is placed along the edge of the room representing the gun. A squad may forfeit their shooting and as long as they are in base to base contact with a gun, role a D6.
1-3: nothing happens
4-5: The controlling player may force the opponent to reroll a reserves role.
6: The controlling player may elect an enemy unit to be shot down in the docking process.

Docking bay: Reserves arriving on in this room do not place the blast template, and allows a unit to arrive from reserves and count as stationary when firing.

And so on...

admiraldick · 11 months ago

i really like some of these ideas. the missions could use a little work, but could potentially be really good.

TSINI · 11 months ago

im liking the stackable rooms, that really would be a cool challenge, of course you could set up a separate table with some rooms on, then colour code the ramps up from the board to entry points on the rooms, allowing you to have multi linked rooms and multi level combat (the floors could technically be endless)

Hoplophile · 11 months ago

I'm reminded of XCOM's good old crashed-UFO and Alien base raids that played out on multiple levels at once, including firing / tossing grenades across floors. Those were the days.

Two ways to do it: with multi-level terrain pieces or just by linking different playing tables like TSINI mentionned. Maybe even a mix of both.

rahveel · 11 months ago

if you could get a game of 40k to play like XCOM, you would have just developed a perfect play-aid. wow... havent thought about that game in years.

Anon · 11 months ago

One thing you could do for mission setup is if a boarding action is initiated (via assault boat, torpedo, teleport, etc.), roll on the critical chart as if it were a successful attack, and use that as the basis for the following mission. Ie, a 2-4 results in an attack on a weapons/lance battery, 6 is a raid on a reactor, 10 is shield generator sabotage, etc., and then apply the results of the subsequent 40k game to the BFG game.

Anon · 11 months ago

I should clarify - this is for a BFG/40k mix, with boarding/assault actions initiated in a BFG game.

Culial · 11 months ago

Are you using Hangar-8's Red Scorpion symbol?
It's a bit small, but I think that's the one...

I'm not getting a transfer sheet, am I?

:-(

Bigred · 11 months ago

Its my own Red Scorpions logo, and yes you are getting it....patience. Its on the way.

Culial · 11 months ago

Sorry! :-S
Didn't mean to in any way infer that I didn't like the logo, and you have to admit it is very similar :-P and I'm sure you mentioned somewhere that you've used the 40K Badges & Banners site in your research? I may be wrong of course... just my trademark 2+2=3!

I didn't in any way mean to come across as impatient, quite the opposite now I know it's coming! Time + BoLS = Quality!

Now I'm quietly (ok, not so quietly if you take this post into account) anticipating it. A BoLS Red Scorpions logo sheet means I can afford to get the 20 Assault Termies I have planned (£100), magnetise the weapon options and still eat! (to do this with the FW pads would cost an extra £64+ P&P) or maybe I'll continue on the Games Workshop diet and get some of the FW Vanguards as well! :-D

Once again I'd just like to state that the work you guys do is amazing and I in no way mean to be critical or rush it.

Stve · 11 months ago

I think the restriction of models on >60mm bases from certain areas of the board is really evocative of the cramped side-passages of starships. For the rules for boarding actions, why not just use the Cities of Death ruleset with some new strategems?
Keep the corridor-like terrain idea, and the using of rooms os 'area' objectives. Then, before deployment, the players take things like fusion grenades, lascutters, auspex disruptors and extra flamers. Maybe there could be 'generic' strategems and then some race-specific ones:
Lascutters: No room can be considered 'locked'.
Fusion grenades: Squads don't need to hold objectives, but can move on after destroying vital equipment.
Auspex disruptors: The defender is forced to make some sort of 'random movement (maybe distance) until they get LOS to the enemy, at which point they can now move normally (hopefully this would represent the defenders instruments being unable to pinpoint where abouts the attackers are).
As for race-specific, I not sure. Whaddya think?

Steve

papasmurf · 11 months ago

my two cents on race specific strategems:

Tyranids:
Ship Tentacle- being that all the tyranid ships are living beings, i have this idea. from the tyranid entry point, act as if you have an ordinance weapon with a small blast template (don't know what the range would be) fire it like one would on a normal map of 40k. don't know what the strength would be, maybe S7 or something. but if any squad gets hit, take D6 wounds representing the ship tentacle bursting through the ship and hitting them!
-creeping Stalkers: Lictors and Genestealers can deploy via the sewer rats strategem in CoD to represent them bursting from ventilation shafts

Space Marines:
boarding fury: space marines get furious charge the turn they enter the ship, representing the ferocity of their boarding actions
-teleport expertise: terminators can reroll scatter for their deep strike, representing their expertise in boarding ships
these rules could probably apply to Grey knights and CSM too

Tau:
-close quarters fire exercise: knowing that they would get slaughtered in CC on ships, tau ship crews are trained in close firing drills to maximize their firepower.
to represent this, enemy models do not receive cover saves when tau shoot past other tau
-security drones: drone squads can deploy using the sewer rats strategem from CoD

Orks:
-pik up dem bitz: orks can set up barricades from almost any kind of junk, making it easier for the shoota boyz (or any squad of your choosing) to defend or hold a room. during the movement phase, if the squad doesn't move, they can set up an orky barricade.
-storming fury: orks can re roll to hit in CC when assaulting into a room

Eldar:
-phantom node: if a squad of eldar is within 12'' of a phantom node (some type of security beacon in corridors) then they receive a 4+ cover save, even if in hallways. only eldar can benefit from these nodes
-minor webway stations: these can be specific rooms in an eldar ship. these rooms allow any kind of squad, friend or foe, to automatically go to the other webway room. however, the room must be secure on the leaving end (i.e. no enemies in the room) in order to use it.

Dark eldar:
along with the eldar strategems, the dark eldar receive this strategem:
-Slave trap: when an enemy squad enters an empty room, roll a D6. on a 4+ a force field activates (as the enemy might have already blown up the door), and they have to roll a 5+ in their movement phase if they want to get out. the D6 roll is improved to a 4+ of a psyker or a unit like a mek or Techmarine is present.

Sisters of battle:
Fire Turrets. these turrets are immobile, and function like artillery units with no crew, but can still fire. they use the profile of a standard flamer to fire, and the owning player can choose where to put them throughout his/her ship.

Necrons:
-phase redeployment: this is an upgrade that squads would have to buy. it works just like the eldar webway room, only there are 2 + D3 markers instead of rooms and the necrons could teleport away even if there are enemies nearby.

Demons:
Warp scream: seeing as in space the demons are probably near some kind of warp rift when in space i came up wiht this: this is a strategem can only be used once per game in the demon shooting phase. on that turn every enemy squad rolls a D6. on a 4+, they take D6 S4 AP5 hits, no invulnerable saves allowed. psykers must take a perils of the warp test. this doesn't effect vehicles. being very powerful, this strategem should probably cost quite a bit i think.

Imperial guard:
-stormtrooper assault: storm troopers can be taken as troop choices, even if the strategem in the IG codex that usually allows that is not being used.
-lascutters: as mentioned in other posts, no doors count as locked.
-burn 'em out: squads can take an extra flamer along with their usual amount the squad can carry.

well, that my have been more than 2 cents, maybe more like creative venting, but that's just me. hopefully all you others will blow my ideas out of the water!

TSINI · 11 months ago

that does read pretty well, i really like the character of each race caught in these strategems

Morgan666 · 11 months ago

I realy recommend looking at all of the old space hulk and expansion rules. We use the standard 5th edition rules for all things but use the spacehulk rules for direction. We use the space hulk scenarios and playing pieces minus the miniatures of course. Bulkheads are strength 10. Blips are a point values. A 1 genestealer blip provides 20 points of troops of whatever the controling player wants at that location. A 3 stealer blip provides 60 points. This usualy represents an unending supply of defending crew that in many scenarios last until the attacker accomplishes their mission or is annihilated. Non infantry model bases must fit entirly on the board and cannot overhang. This does mean that some models like dreadnaughts can start in a room and not be able to leave. We have been using this system for some time with no problems.

worrywort · 11 months ago

Why don't you use simply city of death codex rules ?

With some stratagems, I think it's really fun.

Just like the imperial Armor V4, an invulnerable Save at 6+ for everything in the narrow corridors.

Nigthfight rules all the time.

No vehicule or some walker. No Deep strike

But I think using some tarentulas will be fun no ?

And an obligatory choice for the defender : Servitors and a techmarine

TSINI · 11 months ago

i think that would be fine for a general game in space, but i think the guys here want a much more focused scenario, to add realism and new tactical thought to the games so they really feel like a different place to fight, rather than a game with different scenery

Conrad · 11 months ago

I'd keep things as simple as possible if I'm honest.

Use the 40k ruleset where-ever appropriate with only a few restrictions to follow the fluff of what's happening.

For one, I'd say no heavy weapons allowed. You're not going to be running around the ship with lascannons and rocket launchers as they're bulky and cumbersome and (even more logical) they can punch a hole in the hull if you miss. Besides, with the terrain that you're likely playing you won't need the range and smaller arms would be the better weapon choice.

Secondly, I'd use drop-pod style restrictions for what you can take. If it couldn't fit into a drop-pod then you can't take it. After-all, most boarding actions are done via pods punching through the hull or small landing crafts. This means that most things in the game will be allowed except tanks basicaly. Reason I'd leave Dreads and Fex's allowable is the simple fact that there's only going to be a certain number of places they'll be able to move but they'll make the game more interesting and would be used for smashing through those larger bulk-heads. With Dreads, I'd restrict the weaponary to an assault cannon or 2 CC weapons and restrict the Fex to CC weapons only.

For the start of the game. I'd use the normal missions from the 40k book and just tweak them slightly as follows:

2 objectives in each deployment zone - Works as the landing party may be trying to gain access to that vital area (powercore, main computer etc) and the defenders would be trying to get back part of the ship they need (as above) or repell the boarders by taking and holding a vital corridor etc.

2+D3....again, all work as they can be different areas of the ship that are vital to it's operation or control of the ship. Multiple terminals, powercores, access hatchs/doors or various different things.

Annihilate, works as the boarders would want to take and hold an entire deck or area of the ship and the defenders would (obviously) want to wipe out the boarders.

Keeping the deployment rules also works even with Dawn of War as the nightfighting can be representational of power outs caused by the boarding crafts/initial impacts or battle damage sustained. I would, however, state that the attacker must always come on from their deployment zone edge (NOT board edge as in table quarters it makes the deployment type a bit null).

There'd be a few other restrictions I'd put into the start of the game for the sake of sensibility. For one, no deep striking (duh) UNLESS the unit has the ability to teleport or a similar reason for suddenly appearing. This gives termies an advantage as I don't believe there is another unit in the game that deep strikes this way. It's also a disadvantage if they do deep strike as they may end up scattering into a wall or may not be able to complete their "circle" due to the tightly packed terrain and narrow corridors (wider corridors would be a "safer" target for locking on with a teleporter). I'd be very tempted to give Lictors their deep strike as well as it would fit in the fluff that they could blend into machinery and pipes in walls or even infiltrate through the air-ducts (sudden flashbacks of the Alien movies..."THEY'RE COMING OUT THE WALLS!!")

I'd also state that the attacker cannot place anything in reserve (except deep strikers with the above restrictions) while the defender could if they wanted to (who knows why though).

Keep it simple but restrict in keeping with the fluff. I would, mayhaps, add the following to the game though.

Power-outs: Roll a D6 each turn, on a 6 it's nightfighting but with only 2D6 spotting distance rather than 2D6x3.

Automated defences: Give the defenders either D6 or 2+D3 defence turrets or a limited points worth (say 100). This can be represented via a quick set or rules for each race involved and again I'd keep them simple. Marines/Guard would get Heavy Bolter tarrantula's for instance. Tau could have mobile defences in the form of gun drones hovering around the ship. Nids get the biospores floating around. Eldar get 2 Guardians with a heavy weapons platform (limited to a Shuriken Cannon/Scatter Laser) I'm sure you get the idea.

It's Our Ship Damnit!: This idea came to me when I realised that the boarders would only commit a limited number of troops to the boarding action where-as the defenders would have more resources to pull into play. I'd make the attackers limited to 400 Vs 500 or 600 Vs 750. I'd also allow the defenders to create 200/250 points of reserves that will be available on a D6 roll of 4+ on turn 5, 3+ on turn 6 and 2+ on turn 7 (if the game gets that far) as they'd have people running from other areas of the ship to try and bolster the defence etc.

Shock Attack: To balance up the game for the attackers, I'd give them wall and door breaching abilities. A cutting torch, explosive charge, powerfists etc that mean they can literaly just smash through some of the walls and doors that may have been sealed. I'd give the walls an armour of 12 and state that if you beat the armour value you create a 2 inch wide breach in the wall to walk through, this could be done via shooting/assault, what-ever but would follow all the normal restrictions of the rules (ie, you can't blow a hole in the wall via shooting and then charge an enemy unit or shoot an enemy unit and then assault the wall to blow a hole in it) This ability is NOT available to the defenders as they wouldn't smash up their own ship! It also gives the attacks an advantage to compensate the automated defences and the fact they're outnumbered on points as they can go almost anywhere they want while the defenders have to follow the corridors etc.

From there, I'd say the only real necessity would be to ensure you had the right scenery for the job. Narrow corridors with a few rooms and maybe a hanger deck/machine shop here and there for a wider area....you could even have a room where all the tanks are being stored. Line upon line of Rhinos/Predators/Falcons etc packed side by side.

All in all, I like the idea of 40k games for boarding actions but it would have to be done on a small scale of no more than 500 to 750 points on a 4x4 board if you wanted to keep it relitively quick. I believe the additions above would also add a much more tactical edge to the game as it gives the defenders one advantage where they can place defences in good possitions and junctions but the attackers can blast through walls to try and circumvent these defences etc and I think the power-outs will add a nice edge of unpredictability to the game ("I've got them in my sights sarge! DAMNIT, turn the lights back on!!!)

FabricatorGeneral · 11 months ago

"It's our ship": specify that "Troops" choices are the only valid option here, no elites in that back-up unit.

Parcival · 11 months ago

Awww, this is so exciting. I have to paint my Space Hulk Blood Angels Terminators. =)

pablofiasco · 11 months ago

terrain wise, i hope im not out of line by suggesting using these:
http://hirstarts.com/scifi/scifimain.html
hirst is kind of a DIY lego approch to terrain, you cast from a mold of block designs, and just make as many as you need to make a peice of terrain, very well suits to making large, modular 'dungens' or space-hulk style terrain,

you could even have "rolling' battles where you simply remove unused sections of the 'ship" when they become irrelevant, and add to whichever side the game is flowing towards (and of course, make your own "breached" sections complete with boarding craft if you want,etc).

Rule wise, i gotta semi agree with the trend. No large vehicles, However i take a differnt veiw on walkers/monsterous creatures. many of them are very suited to boarding actions, i would suggest simply have the rule: Monsterous creatures and walkers Are allowed to be taken, but they can only move threw sections of the board that they could actually physically fit threw. and that does NOT include turing the model sideways to crabwalk. Ships tend to have a variety of sized hallways an corridors, some small enough for just a few people, others large enough to move large maintnace vechicles and muntions carriers..

On setup: The attacker should either setup like normal, within X of a table edge, while the defender is allowed to setup anywehre else on teh board not within 18/12 inches of an attacking unit (to represet the fact that this IS thier ship they are fighting on, why wouldnt they be "anywhere".

Alternativly, you could have the attacker come in on one or two differnt "breach points" (represented by boarding pods,etc) with reserves from those points at regular times.

The only real Deep strike that should be allowed would be those that teleport (termi's, warpsiders, etc), sorry guard, but gravchuts arent going to be much use getting you into an enemy ships interior.

infiltrate as normal (to represent small units in smaller pods secretly boarding at differnt spots)

and thats all i have for now :)

pablofiasco · 11 months ago

oh yes, i forgot one think, if you have any questions regarding the hirst, feel free to ask either on the hirst forum (requires a yuku account (avialble free) or in the hirstarts chatroom, theres typically someone there at...well...really anytime during the weekdays:

http://hirstarts.yuku.com/chat/room/id/16
(again, requires a yuku account)

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

Yeh there they are u could use the excuse that the guard have cutting saws to cut through the ships hull

TSINI · 11 months ago

man that scenery is really cool, and perfectly suited to onboard fights, although it may need to be combined with a couple of other sets to increase its size, (squads of troops are much bigger than the individual models shown in the pics. and modified with plenty of gothic bitz, but i realy like this stuff, its got exactly the feel of a high tech ship interior (space marines or TAU)

i imagine older ships, (Badab war esque) to be much more gothic, with archways and victorian engineering, so the Cityfight kits wouldnt be difficult to use for this image really,

Ssyrie · 9 months ago

That company doesn't sell scenery. They sell the molds so that you can make your own scenery.

TheMightyTechmarine · 11 months ago

close quarters = casualties and assaults.
overwatch would be perfect. during the shooting phase make a leadership test. if you fail the unit acts normally but can not shoot that turn. if you pass they go on overwatch. overwatch allows you to fire or assault at the same time the enemy does in their turn.

basicly both sides are insured to take losses but overwacth will make them think a bit more before rounding that corner. that hesitation can be of tactical use :) resolve blast weapons as normal but overwatch units would be immune to effects as they were fired at the enemy as they rounded the corner (i know its an abstract way to handle blast markers)

unit upgrades
-corridor fighters- these units have either extensive experieince or training in close quarters assaults. the units memebers will always make their assault attack regardless if they are killed before their intiative (basicly if they get into an assault they act as tyranids under catalyst)

more later, C&Cwelcome

Conrad · 11 months ago

Having been recently reading the Epic rules and started playing 40k way back in 2nd Ed.

Overwatch in both Epic and old 2nd Ed means you can interupt your opponents movement phase at any point and fire at the unit they've just moved if you choose to. There's nothing about assault in there and I don't think having assault based overwatch would work. I'd also say that overwatch should be a "free" action without any tests as you're sacrificing shooting in your turn for the option to shoot in the opponents...perhaps a "to hit" modifier when they shoot to represent the sudden "OMG, they're coming right for us" as they let loose.

But yeah....I'd definitly agree with having overwatch for the boarding actions game as it'll make it even more tactical and it's not like you'll get what used to happen in 2nd Ed 40k where both armies would just go into overwatch until some-one moved their models in range and promptly had them blown to hell.

TSINI · 11 months ago

i think overwatch entirely works here in a close quarters small force game such as this, also its easier to remember with a smaller army.

i guess people might question why the troops are able to pause for breath in these situations and not on the battlefield, but i think it would be easy to rationalise with the thought "in a battle, the air is full of noise and you have a raging army rampaging towards you. On your own ship, or even an enemy ship, you can hear the noise of the approaching squads down the corridoors, you get a chance to prepare for the fierce fight ahead, then unleash hell on the enemy as they blunder around the corner

Anon · 11 months ago

I think that's what the "stand and shoot" options are for in the IA4 rules. It gets a lot of the functionality of overwatch without having the problem of players turtling up and waiting it out.

TSINI · 11 months ago

i really do need to win the lottery and pay out for those last 2 IA books, they sound more awesome than i possibly dreamed, and i dream Forgeworld

Dan Beresford · 11 months ago

Here's my take on the rules:

Prepare to Repel Boarders!
Rules for fighting boarding actions in Warhammer 40,000

Army List restrictions:
• The only units you can take are: Beasts, Infantry, Jump/Jet Infantry, and Walkers. So no Bikes, no Vehicles except Walkers, no artillery, etc.
• No Unit may have a model count greater than 15 – anything larger is just impractical in such a small, confined space.
• The Force Org chart is modified to allow Walkers to be taken as Heavy Support if they were not already, in addition to their original force organisation category.

Movement:
Any area of a ship currently in Zero G is classed as Difficult Terrain.
Jump/Jet Infantry must make a dangerous terrain test each time they use their “jump” move.

Shooting:
The confines of a starships corridor make for a no mans land deadly to both attackers and defenders. Due to this all models on the board may re-roll to wound when making shooting attacks against their opponents. Due to the close confines of the corridors all Template weapons cause 1 extra wound than they would normally do.

Assault:
Due to the difficulty of fighting in such an environment, all models fighting in Zero G count as being initiative 1, no matter what (if any) bonus their special rules and equipment would normally provide.

Missions:
Boarding Actions use any of the standard missions in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook - only the deployment is different.

Deployment:
Boarding Actions always use the following deployment rules: Whoever deploys first is the defender. The defender chooses a long table edge and deploys their units anywhere within their table half. The attacker does not deploy at all, instead, half of his army arrives at the beginning of his first player turn moving on from anywhere on his own board edge. This represents boarding craft cutting through the hull of the enemy vessel. The rest of his army is held in reserve and arrives either in the same way as the first half of the army, or via deep strike, even if they do not have the deep strike special rule.

Special Rules:
Boarding Actions use the Deep Strike, Explosive Decompression, Night Fighting, and Reserves special rules. Anything that Deep Strikes is considered to have been teleported onto the deck, whether from its own ship or from captured teleporters on the enemy ship. Please note that corridor walls are classed as impassable terrain for the purposes of Deep Strike Mishaps.

Explosive Decompression: Starship hulls are very susceptible to breach from the inside, and as such any time that a blast or ordnance weapon would touch a corridor wall representing the ships hull, there is a chance it could cause a breach. The hull is classed as having an AV of 10, any glancing or penetrating hit will instantly cause a hull breach. Every model of any unit within 12” of the hull breach will take a strength 3 hit which ignores armour saves and causes instant death, regardless of any special rule which would normally negate this (such as Eternal Warrior, etc). Resolve these hits and remove any casualties immediately, after which the Starship’s emergency safety systems kick in and the breach is sealed.

What do you think?

Conrad · 11 months ago

I think that Jump Infantry should be a no no on a space ship. Where exactly are they jumping up to? They're gonna take themselves out on the roof of the corridors, surely?

Also, I'd again say that in Zero G environments jump infantry would have an advantage as they can pound the jets and fly straight through without being pushed to the ground...meaning, if anything, they should probably gain more movement.

I'd say a definite no to jump infantry...it's just too impractical/suicidal.

TSINI · 11 months ago

i think looking at the ork rokk attack in the apocalypse book, that the jump infantry are a usefull part of a space marine assault on a ship, maybe they could only move as normal infantry on the ship, but somehow utilise the jump packs in manouvering around the outside of the ship, maybe they would be impervious to being sucked out of the ship, and simply return through the same hole or another. or perhaps they could enter the game through any exterior wall

Culial · 11 months ago

Not sure about the Zero-G bits...aren’t Marines meant to have magnetised boots? And since this is for Badab, wouldn’t the majority of armies be Marines?

Warskull · 11 months ago

Why not use Dawn of War deployment every time? Both sides start at long table edges because the attackers just breached the hull, while the defenders are rushing from their barracks and training areas to defend the vessel. The night fighting rule makes sense because the boarders are in an unfamiliar location and have yet to scout their surroundings and establish a perimiter. The attackers, however, have been hurring to equip themselves from a (possibly unsuspected) attack, and are rushing to defensive positions.

Not only would using the Dawn of War deployment rules be the simplest solution, the rules are already established familiar and play tested, allowing more crucial areas of the rule set to be modified. The game will not be fun if it is unnecessarily complex. Why not use the established rules in this instance?

Eriochrome · 11 months ago

I think the first rule change I would put in would be that squad members block line of sight within the own squad. This would force very specific movement to optimize fire lanes.

I would allow things on larger bases but make sure that the board includes doorways and hallways that range in size from 30 mm to 60 mm. Dreads, carnis, and terminators are all great for boarding and all have larger than normal bases.

No non walker vehicles or bikes. Turning is a problem in tight hallways.

Jump Infantry can only jump in places where the width is twice the size of their base.

Missions: No Kill Points, Assymetric missions: 1 objective where the attacker only needs to contest it. (IE destroy the shields or overload reactor). Multiple Objective where the defender only has to contest them. (Securing additional boarding points)

Deployment: No Inflitrator or Scouts, No Outflank. Reserces: Attacker uses 1 narrow table edge while defender uses the remaining ones but has to roll were each unit comes from like outflank but with no choose option.

Eriochrome · 11 months ago

As for the block line of sight I would add the casualities should only be taken from models that can be seen like in 4th

Conrad · 11 months ago

I'd be forced to dissagree with both point I'm afraid.

The idea of being able to shoot through models in your own unit is to represent the front people kneeling, crouching etc to allow those behind to fire. This was something done way back in the days of the musket to allow 3 rows to fire nearly simultaniusly.....I'm pretty sure that by the year 40k they'll have worked out how to kneel, lean and generaly shoot around each other in a unit, especialy when they're supposed to train as units and be trained to fire.

As for only being able to kill models in line of sight...we're talking about corridors with metal walls and similar situations on a space ship. The idea of killing models you can't see actualy states in the rule-book that it's supposed to represent ricochets, blasts and similar occurances. If anything, it's more likely that you'll get a ricochet off metal walls around corners etc and certainly more likely that blasts will be funneled down corridors instead of dispersing in all directions with less volitile force as if it was in the open.

Eriochrome · 11 months ago

If you want confined space effect ,the guy with the assault cannon at the back of 10 people in a narrow hallway cannot bring that weapon to bear without hitting his friends. If you put Shaq in several inch thick armor he will fill the normal hallway pretty well standing or kneeing.

Eriochrome · 11 months ago

It also helps balance assault vs shooty since the assualter might only every be able to get a few of their unit engaged in a hallway why should shooters get to fire ten or fire deep.

Conrad · 11 months ago

Yeah...but you're forgetting that the shooty is likely to only get 1 round of shooting against an assault unit before getting engaged and it too will have limited attacks back. It looses the advantage of the shooty unit and you'll just end up with everyone wanting to take 5 man assault squads on foot with a power weapon/fist standing about 2-3 men back in the squad (bases are 1 inch and you only need to be within 2 inchs of a guy in contact with the enemy to get your attacks).

Suddenly you end up with bolter marines loosing every time as they may as well just have the bolt pistol. With the terrain you're likely to have, they'll not get a shot off until they enemy is within 12 inchs and then they're getting assaulted. Restricting the number of models that can fire just doesn't work.

With the "assault cannon" example...remember, the models are just a representation and the "turn" is to represent the firing that's constantly happening. It's not like they stop walking to fire their bolter and then start walking again. They're walking through the corridors blazing away all the time.

The only way it'd work to restrict units firing and would be to give them a "to hit" modifier because the people being shot at have no-where to dodge to so you're shooting a sitting duck! Using your example with Shaq as a counter. You can't miss him so why roll to hit?

If you were to restrict models firing because of them not seeing through friendlies....I'd be taking Scouts with CC weapons and a Sarge with powerweapon/fist every time. Same strength, toughness and initiative as a marine, they're hitting on 4+ in combat against a marine and have 2 attacks with their CC weapons, 3 on the charge and 4 for the sarge. Yes, they have lower armour and are getting hit back on 3+ but for the points I'd rather flood those Troops into the ship since I'd know my opponent wasn't going to get more than 2-3 shots at them before I'm in combat....and then take assault units without jump-packs. To hit any heavier units that I realy want to take out. With power weapons in almost every unit in the game, the armour save of your unit only comes into play for a small fraction of the combat (Howling banshee's have ALL power weapons for instance and thus you may as well take a scout for CC).

TSINI · 11 months ago

"The idea of being able to shoot through models in your own unit is to represent the front people kneeling, crouching etc to allow those behind to fire. This was something done way back in the days of the musket to allow 3 rows to fire nearly simultaniusly.....I'm pretty sure that by the year 40k they'll have worked out how to kneel, lean and generaly shoot around each other in a unit, especialy when they're supposed to train as units and be trained to fire."

i'd personally rather not be staring at my opponents crotch when he charges from the other side of the room :D

static grass · 11 months ago

Assuming you are going to break out the CoD terrain and build loads of corridors and buildings...

Special rules...

Enclosed Spaces.

Scatter weapons do not scatter beyond any walls. Place the centre of the template on the wall where it would cross the wall after scattering. Flame templates that extend beyond ( down the centre axis) a wall do not cross the wall but instead may reroll failed attempts to wound. This is due to flames being deflected back and engulfing the area entirely.

Disrupted Power Grid.

The power grid has been disrupted during the ship to ship exchange. At the start of both players turn roll a D6 on the roll of a 1 the players turn is fought using the NF rules. NF effects end at the players turn.

Murderous Richochets.

In the close and confined areas of a ship richocheted shots prove just as deadly as a perfectly aimed round. All shooting attacks that roll a 1 to hit maybe rerolled to hit. If the weapon also gets hot. Take the saving throw first before rerolling and ignoring any 1s the second time.

Set up.

Defender may place troops anywhere on the table.

Attacker may enter from any table edge.
_______________
Just some ideas. Good luck.

Conrad · 11 months ago

I realy like those ideas.

As in my first comment, I'd make the NF rules only 2D6 vision instead of 3x2D6 because I think most models will only get short distances for line of sight on a space hulk type board and it would be much darker inside an enclosed ship when the lights go out (no ambient light from moon/stars etc).

Nightwing · 11 months ago

The hallways in 40k. vessels are actually quite large (not to say enormous). Its more like urban warfare with intact buildings and many doors. Everytime we play bording actions, we just use the City of Death rules.

durandal · 11 months ago

City of death style rules, with new assets to represent boarding flavor. I would suggest the following:

Lascutters: The unit carries large bulkhead cutting equipment. Once per game it may destroy a section of wall 6' across. That wall is breached and troops can move freely through the opening.

Point Defense system: The defenders have d3 turrets armed with twin linked heavy bolters, shuricannons, devourers etc to position in their deployment zone. Each system counts as an immobile vehicle with AV12 all around.

Teleport Attack: Units may teleport anywhere on the table.

I would also suggest a second set of objectives to represent network nodes on the ship. Control of these nodes would allow actions like opening/closing doors, venting atmosphere, enabling/disabling defensive systems and sensors. These nodes could be destroyed, leaving the features stuck in the last state they were in.

clkeagle · 11 months ago

Good base ideas... similar to what I was going to post. My suggestions:

No need to invent something new when it already exists, both in fluff and in the game. How about: "Any model with a powerfist (not just Terminators) may take a CHAINFIST at (normal terminator upgrade cost)."
Then instead of a 6" section, it would essentially create another doorway. Much simpler and a fun conversion idea for boarding sergeants/vets.

Point defense system: Instead of a random quantity, let's just assign them a cost and allow 1-3 to be taken as a Heavy Support option (need not be deployed together).

Teleport attack: I like it as-is. It's extraordinarily risky trying to teleport into such narrow corridors with scatter rules.

I like where you're going with the objectives. Rather than conferring a bonus to the attacking player, they take something away from the defender.

Eldanesh · 11 months ago

Looks like I'll be dusting off my Space Hulk tiles. I realize this isn't really feasible for everyone, but I have a ton of these from back in the day. 40K rules could be modified to accommodate Hulk board sections. The only drawback is the tiles are all sectioned into 1 inch squares thus taking the guesswork out of range measurement.

I've also got a 4' x 5' piece of black gator-foam I could use to make an interesting table with a Boarding Action being the dedicated purpose for it.

gamete · 11 months ago

Just some ideas I was tossing around:

Deployment:

Attacker declares their board edge first.

Defender deploys first, they can deploy anywhere on the board.

Attacker goes first. Choose a 2” wide piece of table edge for each squad arriving that turn, any defender within 4” of this piece of board edge takes a str 3 hit, re-rolling to wound, and is pushed back until they are outside of 4”.

If they cannot be pushed back due to models not of their unit behind them, then that many models in the unit are destroyed (defenders choice) and the remainder of the models pushed to outside of 4” of the 2” section of board edge.

The attacker then arrives onto the table from this 2” section of board as a vehicle disembarkation move, they may assault the turn they arrive.

Vehicles use the same entry rules except that they have a section of board edge to arrive from equal to the width of their hull/base, and if they contact enemy units in their “disembark move” it counts as a tanks shock/ram.

(The damage and push-back represents the blast of the boarding vehicle breaching the hull, and prevents attacking units from being destroyed due to being unable to disembark)

Reserves:
Defender uses reserves as normal, they may have up to their entire army in reserve at the beginning of the game.

Attacker starts with their entire army in reserve, but uses apoc. asset “careful planning” [is that what it's called?] (at no extra cost). The only units that may deep strike are units whose method of deep strike is teleportation, no outflanking is allowed by the attacker.

Movement:
No modifiers (Unless the ship is heavily damaged, I doubt this would be much effected).

Shooting:
Re-rolls to hit (the long corridors and straight lines of a ship make hitting the foe quite easy).

Assaults:
The tight corridors of a ship mean that only the front lines of most units will ever engage in assault.
Only models in base to base contact with an enemy model gain charge bonuses (+1 attack, furious charge etc.), and only those models, and the models in base to base contact with those models may fight at all.

This approach to combat makes it far easier for the remainder of the unit to see what is going on in the combat.
All unsaved wounds dealt in the combat count triple for purposes of leadership checks at the end of combat.

Before a victorious unit performs a sweeping advance make a leadership check at the units base leadership minus the number of casualties on both sides of the combat.
If this check is failed, then the victorious unit has been entangled and slowed by the assorted and varied limbs of their friends and foes alike, and automatically fail the sweeping advance roll, if it is passed, then they may make the sweeping advance as normal.

Completely different from what most people want assaults to be I think, but I like the imagery.

I don't think any base sizes need to be restricted, the standard movement rules of 40k take care of where models can and can't move, eg a dread couldn't go down a corridor only wide enough for 2 25mm bases side by side.

Other things on this thread sounded pretty cool, like punching through walls/doors with lascutters/powerfists, etc.

That's about all I reckon.

Cheers,
Gam.

squighound · 11 months ago

Some of those suggestions sound like hell - I don't want to learn a new game, I just want some self-imposed limits on the game I already know. KEEP IT SIMPLE:

Nightfight all the time.

Infantry and small walkers only. No vehicles, bikes, jumpinfantry, etc.

Assign an armour value to all the walls and another armour value to all the doors.

Scatters stop at walls.

Nothing that would usually use high altitude, ie no mortars.

Deep strike only allowed for teleporters. I.E. Termies - fine.

Ummm.... and I think that's it.

blackwolf · 11 months ago

I agree with squighound keep the rules simple and just restrict the troops to what would be there.
AV12 walls and Blast Doors
AV 10 regular doors.

Don't use the Force Org Chart.

Keep th ponits low (1000 at most)

squighound · 11 months ago

Yay! someone agrees with me! I don't speak utter drivle!

Those sound like sensible AVs for the structure.

Who's with us for really simple rules? I think these combats will be made cool by scenery tactics, not by overcomplicated additional rules.

Gamers World · 11 months ago

I agree with you.

smurfhater · 11 months ago

"scatter stops at walls do you mean the central hole or the edge of the template?

squighound · 11 months ago

The central hole - the logic being that the projectile had detonated when it hit the wall.

joe · 11 months ago

"contact markers"

Anything deployed by the defender outside the attackers visual range is indicated by a contact marker (1 per unit or model - debatable?) plus a few spurious contacts. When the marker moves into LOS, it is replaced by the appropriate models.

The models must also be deployed if the unit does anything other than move.

At the end of the defenders turn, any units not in LOS of the attacker can be replaced by contact markers again.

Anon · 11 months ago

Lots of good suggestions here, so I won't bother repeated those. Nonetheless:

Heavies/armor can certainly be used - the boarding torpedoes used in BFG are the size of skyscrapers, so they'd fit and be usable in certain situations. If BOLS decides to have multiple space-combat scenarios (which I'd recommend), then these could be restricted to specific scenarios.

Multiple scenarios: As I mentioned earlier (and I think I discussed in a post several weeks back), there are multiple phases to a boarding action. So there could be scenarios for a breaching action (using Dawn of War rules?), a straight-out firefight in a large area (Cities of Death), a corridor sweep (IA4 base rules), etc. Lots of different places to use the rules people are suggesting here. As bad as the Fire Warrior game was, the boarding action that game had was quite flavorful and a good bit of reference.

External effects: In the last thread I suggested having a random chance of explosions as the target ship is hammered from the outside (assuming this is a hit-and-run, rather than capture, operation), where the explosion is a S3 hit to all models on either the table or table quarter - I realized later that is a bit unbalancing towards low-T horde armies (IG representing naval guard, Chapter serfs, etc.), so something that would keep the flavor and be less unbalanced would have all units in the targeted quarter count as having moved that turn (could have it apply to two player turns?).

Strategic assets: A lot of these would work natively with the proper interpretation (ie, Flank March is akin to a strategic runaround in the corridors, minefields are internal defenses, etc.), though the single-bombardment one may be a bit unfluffy (hard to target those guns quite like that, especially given that the action could be deep inside a ship). Scheduled bombardment would still work out fine, though - it's a bit more representative of the randomness and inaccuracies involved in getting external ship support.

Conrad · 11 months ago

Having played Fire Warrior I can't say I'd agree that the boarding craft are huge.

I know that they have to give you a chance in the game but they made the game with GW's suppervision and I doubt they'd have allowed them to get something like the boarding pods wrong.

I could be wrong....but from what I remember of the FMV's they were more the size of large drop-pods.

Anon · 11 months ago

Those are assault boats, which are not the same as boarding torpedoes.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Torpedo

Anon · 11 months ago

Just had an idea for jump infantry:

Allow jump infantry as normal, but no Deep Strike (reserved for teleporting). If making a jump move, a roll of 1 on their movement (or possibly failing an Initiative check) means someone crashed into a wall, and the unit takes a wound (basically the Stormboyz rules). There's no reason the jump packs couldn't be used to zoom around corridors a bit, if at risk of crashing into things.

smurfhater · 11 months ago

you would have to say that if they jump they can't move through walls as it wouldn't make sense. however maybe bike units with a 3+ sv could turbo boost through walls as in space marine fluff

Conrad · 11 months ago

I've now got this sudden image of a Space Marine screaming "Turbo boosters" a la Tank Girl and smashing face first into a wall ending up as a 2D splat against it. XD

Anon · 11 months ago

I smell a Goatboy commission =O)

ZiggyQubert · 11 months ago

Nice more Badab info / stuff :), Definetly looking forward to seeing more of this, especialy sence I just started a space sharks army!!

see photos so far here...

http://warmongers.ziggyqubert.com/wmbb/viewtopi...

UltramarineFan · 11 months ago

Um... unusual.

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

Spaceship Boarding Rules

Stratagems

Attacking
Reserves- Once per game the attacking player may bring back on a half troop choices that have been killed (Full Units Only This Makes it not allways a good idea to finish troops of)

Lascutters- Any model with a Powerfist can count as having lascutters for no additional cost. If this model stays in base contact with a sealed door, then it may make a single Str 10 attack on the door to try and breach it. But if the model fails it will take a Str 3 Hit

Hellfire Rounds- One unit per army may use hellfire rounds instead of there normal bolter rounds for the whole game. However the unit may not have a special weapon.
Gas- At the start of the game the attacking player may nominate one of his units to carry gas this may be used instead of shooting and has the following profile: Str 4 AP4 Type: Template This may be used once per game and gives the opposing players unit that was targeted a 5+ cove save until the end of the players next turn.

Neutral
Teleport Attack- Units with the Deep Strike special rule may teleport anywhere on the table without rolling to scatter. Instead you roll a D6 on the roll of a 1-2 the unit is destroyed.

Defending
Booby Traps- Any enemy unit that wishes to pass over a booby trap marker must roll a D6 on the roll of 1 the whole unit take a Str 4 hit for each model in the unit at AP3

Reinforced Defences- Any defending unit that starts in cover at the start of the game receives +1 to their cover save. But should they move then this bonus is lost for the rest of the game (In that piece of cover for that unit)

Security Guns - At the start of the game the defending player may place D3 + 2 Security Guns any unit that moves within 6 inches of the guns will automatically targeted. (If there are several unit’s the defending player may choose which) Security Guns have the following profile Str 5 AP 5 Type: Heavy 3 Range 6”

Movement : Same as rules manual

Shooting: Every unit allways receives a 5+ plus cover save but when rolling to wound you +1 to all your scores (max of 6) To represent tight corridors.

Assault: Minus 1 to WS +1 to wound rolls ( representing ferocious but cramped combats)

Deployment: Defender anywhere on table. Attacker deploys half his force at the start. And half enter from reserve via the attacking players table edge.

Just my ideas very long lol :)

sniperjack · 11 months ago

We used in the last years a small map made out paper pieces with parts of the old Space Hulk game. With a little more work, most people can surely produce much better things.
[IMG]http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o207/sniperjack_photos/Weihnachtsschlacht2007/PICT3831.jpg[/IMG].
In all games we used the old set of Cityfight-Rules. With some special Rules:
No Vehicles (except Walkers (who can get stuck in doors, dangerous terrain)), No Cav, No Bikes, No Jumppack (except Teleport, but more dangerous, all Units can dismantle jumpack, but still same points), U still can march or sprint. No unit needs a transport (like Taupatherfinders. Monsters in doors like rough terrain. Only sight-Weapons. Doors block Line of sight. Ventilation shafts can be used like rough terrain from units with Infiltration, Scouts (ONLY INFANTRY) and models with knowledge of terrain, except really monsters (who don't fit through these. Yes Nid Liktors can use these). usw.
Spice the game up with true Doubleblind (needs much time and and a referee) or fake Doubleblind (Use marker, where the unit is noted under the marker and the unit is placed similar like teleporting units, when an other unit has a line of sight to the marker, except no modell can be destroyed). True Teleporting is still very dangerous without a beacon.

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

Cities of Death offers a lot of really good ideas and concepts that you may want to look into, however starships, in spite of their massive scale, are a lot more cramped than one would thing. Look at any submarine and you will get the idea. There is just not a huge amount of space to run around in spite of the hull volume. That being said, cargo carriers and other types of units would need to get around in there, so it would make sense that anything of approximately Dreadnought size or smaller would be fair game. So here is my go at Boarding Action Rules:

Attacker Overview: The goal of the attacker is to eliminate as many defenders as possible and either capture or destroy 75% of the critical systems generated for the mission.

Defender Overview: The goal of the defender is to prevent the ship from being taken by invading forces.

Force Organization: 1 HQ, 2 Troops (required) with up to one additional HQ, 6 additional Troops, 5 Elites, 2 Fast Attack, and 1 Heavy for a maximum total of 2 HQ, 8 Troops, 5 Elites, 2 Fast Attack, and 1 Heavy. No vehicles are permitted in either force save Walkers, nor are artillery, barrage, or indirect fire weapons like Thudd Guns or Mortars. Neither force is permitted to field weapons higher than strength 7 or with an AP lower than 2 other than Sniper Rifles. In addition, any Troops choice may exchange their regular weapon for either a shotgun or a pistol and close combat weapon at an additional cost based on their army list.

Scenario Special Rules: Hull Breach, Nightfighting, Security Systems

Set-up: Each player rolls a dice with the highest scorer determining which table corner the attackers are entering from. The attacker may set up approximately 33% of his forces in this corner deployment area. The defender may set up in any other corner area with approximately 33% of their units. Beginning in turn 3, each force may bring in a further 33%, with the remainder coming in on turn 4.

Game Length: Standard

Reserves: Each player may keep an additional reserve by deploying less than 33% of their points in turn one. These reserves may not be added to the other two strike forces, and must be rolled for normally using the reserves rules. Items kept in reserve may use any rules for deepstriking that they would normally be allowed to use, however all corridor walls count as impassable terrain.

Objectives: 2d3+2 Objectives rolled randomly on the following list:
1 - Security Substation - Control allows use of Security Systems
2 - Computer Center - Control allows +5 on all Nightfighting rolls for controlling force
3 - Engineering Substation - Control allows for gravity plate manipulation. Nominate one unit in LOS to any of your units each turn. That unit may not move or assault, but may shoot as normal
4 - C3 Module - Control allows the commander to determine where their opponent's reserves and/or second and third waves will enter the board.
5 - Teleporter Control - Control allows units to teleport to exact targets during deepstrike. In addition, one friendly unit each turn that does not have deepstrike may be teleported to any point on the board in LOS of another friendly unit.
6 - Emplacer's Choice - choose one of the five.
Once the Objectives have been determined through the random rolling, select one objective at a time all players roll their strategy rating with the highest result gaining control of the marker. The player who is emplacing the marker may choose to place it anywhere on the board that is at least 12 inches from any deployment zone.

Scenario Special Rules Defined:
Hull Breach - On a roll of a natural 1 in the shooting phase, the missed shot has the potential of causing damage to the ship. Roll a d6 and add the weapon's toughness. On a roll of a 7 or higher, place a vortex grenade template between the firer and his target and roll 2d6 plus the scatter dice. The marker moves either towards the target or towards the shooter down the corridor (depending on the direction of the arrow). Treat the hull breach as a Vortex Grenade in all other ways save that on a roll of 5+ the Hull Breach is sealed by an emergency bulkhead.

Security Systems - During the movement phase of each turn that the Security Substation is under control of another player, each unit that is moving must roll a d6. On a roll of a 1, the unit takes d6 S5 AP - hits from security devices.

Equipment - All players gain access to the Kill Team and Brute Squad upgrades (WH40K 4E pgs 224-227) and may pay for unit upgrades at the prices listed there for tools, equipment, and special abilities.

In addition, one unit in each squad may be upgraded with a demolitions pack for +10 points. Unlike a Demo Charge, the demolitions pack is designed for boarding actions and contains breaching charges. The unit may assault any wall or closed door. On a roll of 3+, the door or wall is blasted open, and the squad may move d6 inches past the opening.

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

Correction:
Hull Breach Should read: on a roll of 10 or higher, not 7 or higher.

Anon · 11 months ago

The Hull Breach system you've suggested means that a bolter could punch through a starship hull. They're way too thick for that - if anything, only a S9/10 weapon should be able to cut through (or give the hull an equivalent of AV14). The rest of it sounds interesting, though.

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

Well, bolter rounds are explosive:)

Seriously, though, I am not a big fan of the idea of Hull Breach myself (you would figure that even the dumbest grots would only be carrying around weapons suited for such encounters), but felt that there needed to be some chance of catastrophic pressure loss if only for flavor. Making it AV 12 might be the way to go, though.

Conrad · 11 months ago

In all honesty, I'd not bother with the hull thing because most of the fighting should be happening a certain distance into the ship due to the boarding pod having smashed so far into the ship.

There's also the possibility that the whole section may already be subject to vacuum due to either battle damage or the fact that the pod has smashed a hole in the hull....from what I remember, the boarding crafts aren't very subtle.

Of course, if you were going to do it and you wanted it representational....I'd advice making it AV14 with the "Blessed Hull" rule and a slight twist of only 1D6 for penetration....basicaly the Monolith's living hull (Blessed Hull is that lance weapons don't get the lance rule against it). Reason I say this is due to the comments made already about how thick and resilient these craft are supposed to be (Lance batteries etc). There's always a chance a hull breach could happen but it's rare.

Example of pure fluke chance from "small" weaponary to destroy a large thing:
One of our first APOC games a Brass Scorpion was piling over the battlefield and causing general carnage (as they do) ripping people appart in CC and being a pain to the marines. There were missiles, lascannons, powerfists, chainfists all pummeled into this thing and the maximum damage that had been done all game was to destroy 2 weapons and pissed it off. A single marine from another part of the battlefield eventualy joined the fray (lone surviving sarge) and charged into the Scorpion. He slams a Meltabomb onto the Scorpion with a 6....penetrates the hull....gets a chain reaction (another 6), then ANOTHER chain reaction followed by the destruction of the final structure point with a 5 and an APOC explosion following. The little fella was killed in the resultant explosion but I think it sums up the "random" factor of what can happen even against the most heavy armour.

cavalier1864 · 11 months ago

Very well put Conrad. I think that you are right in the way this should work, however since there is a restriction on weapons heavier than S7, an AV of 14 would never be popped. AV12 seems reasonable as an Autocannon would breach the hull on a 5+.

One of the reasons that I set up the whole hull breach is because I figured that the breaching torpedoes would likely have already damaged the hull significantly and thus the greater chance to cause damage internally. You have to figure in a space battle many compartments would be exposed to vacuum, and so a shot into the ceiling would not necessarily be hitting the outer hull, but possibly be blasting a hole into a compartment that had already been exposed to space during the ship battle.

Anon · 11 months ago

There's an idea - to simulate popping a floor/wall into an adjacent, pressurized compartment, on a To Hit roll of a 1, attack an AV 12 equivalent - a penetrating hit causes the targeted unit to scatter d6" and counts as having moved in the following turn, as a rush of air slaps them around a bit.

Ian Taylor · 11 months ago

I think that aside for the fact that it would be AWESOME for them, Daemons should be able to move through walls on a T-test, because of the vacinity to the Maelstrom, they would have greater powers any ways. Or it could be more risky- like a Warp Spider's second jump, they can try to fade in and out of the Warp, but if you fail...

UltramarineFan · 11 months ago

If you were ship figthing wouldn't there be a danger that you would puncture the wall of the ship through an inaccurate shot and aloowthe vaccum to suck you out.
'Roll a 1 to hit with a shooting attack and on a 4+ you have created a hole in the side of the ship and everything within four inches takes a S7 hit.'
Also movement and charging would be slower in these confined spaces and should be reduced from 6 inches to 5 or 4.
Looks good though. Can't wait.

RTM · 11 months ago

We ran a "space hulk exploration" campaign two years ago. We had very simple terrain and gaming rules that did not require a fully built up space hulk style table, and the rules were simple to allow for multiple types of gaming experiences, but concentrating on close combat and simplifying terrain requirements.

I am sending the full campaign rules to bigred or one of the boyz, and here is a snippet from that document that discusses the use of terrain:

Terrain Density
Each region has a terrain density that is common for that part of the hulk. There are three different types of densities listed, which affect game play for the battle.
The primary purpose of this terrain density rule is to provide different gaming experiences relative to the standard 40k standard battles that everyone plays week in and week out.
Terrain density types are shown below. You will note that the densest terrain is positively brutal on vehicles, monsters, and jump troops. This is intentional . . . if you are going into a region blindly, then expect the worst, and concentrate on scouts, rangers, basic troops, and keep your heavy support on foot instead of always bringing 3 Demolishers to every engagement.

• Open – Play a normal game of 40k.

• Dense – This part of the hulk is “normal” for the interior of a super-sized spaceship. It is hard to get vehicles in, and your scanners are picking out things five rooms away. Set up the game the way you would a normal “dense” 40k board, but all open terrain isn’t open. . . it’s filled with flimsy walls, heaps of scrap metal, steam vents, open pits, and other hazards that slow progress but might offer convenient cover in a pinch. Rules are as follows:
o Limited visibility – use the night fight rules, searchlights work normally.
o Ceiling – flying units may not deep strike.* Additionally, safe flying is limited to 2d6”; exceeding this forces a difficult ground check at 1 higher level (i.e., one roll if landing in the clear). No movement faster than 12” is ever allowed, and you may not “fly high” because of the ceiling. Tau jetpacks are highly maneuverable, so move normally, and drones chosen as wargear move at the same rate as their owners at no increase in risk.
*Exceptions: units with one or more available weapons having the “melta” advantage can blast open their own hole. Shaken vehicles, or troops on board without fire points, etc. do not count. Drop pods are also able to deep strike, as they make their own hole when they punch through the outer hull of the hulk.
o Cover – Add one level of cover (clear ground becomes 6+), and assaulted models always count as defending cover. All vehicles count as hull down at greater than 12” range.
o Obstructions – Ground T5+ models, bikes, and vehicles (including walkers) increase the level of difficult ground by 1, with no movement greater than 12” (and no turbo boosting rule). This means bikes and ground vehicles roll an immobilization check at the start of each of their movement phases after stating their intended distance, if they intend to move at all. Ground vehicles moving in from reserve roll as they enter; they will be stuck at the edge (in play) if they fail. Note that standing still in your movement phase and then turning in place in the shooting phase does not count as movement, per normal rules.

• Labyrinth – This part of the hulk is a maze of twisty passages, all alike. It is easy to get lost, and a few peeks from ventilation shafts and through windows is all you have to aim your short controlled bursts. This is going to be ugly; I hope you brought your chainsword!
o Severely limited visibility – use the night fight rules with 1 fewer die, no searchlights.
o Low ceiling – Flying units may not deep strike (as above). Safe flying movement is limited to 1d6. Tau jetpacks are highly maneuverable, so may fly the best of 2d6”, and drones are as above. No movement faster than 6” is allowed, and you may not fly high.
o Cover – Add one level of cover (clear ground becomes 6+), and assaulted models always count as defending cover. All vehicles count as hull down at greater than 6” range.
o Obstructions – All T5+ models, ground bikes, and vehicles (including walkers) increase the level of difficult ground by 2, and no movement greater than 6” is possible. Note that rough terrain modifications are de rigeur for space hulks. All other rules are as above.

Table size is changed to accommodate the terrain density. Open games are played on a 6x4’ table. Dense games are on a 5x4’ table. Labyrinth games are ugly and brutal, on a 4x4’ table.

TheMightyWarHamster · 11 months ago

since this is going to be marines-only (mostly), here's some ideas:
pre-game:
- nominate one table edge as the ship's outer hull.
- tactical terminators can be taken as heavy support and/or elites choices. when taken as elites, they must be at maximum squad size with two heavy weapons.
- only troop types allowed are infantry and walkers (assault squads must leave behind their jumppacks).
- terminators are scoring units
- the defender may deploy sentry guns (see tarantula turrets in IA) and sealed bulkheads as heavy support choices. bulkheads are squad size 1-10, 10pts each.

deployment rules:
- "beachhead" (att)- nominate a 12x12 or 6x12 area along the outer hull edge as hangar or something similar that has been captured by the attacker (using deathwind pods, etc). this is the attackers deploymet zone. the attacker may not use infiltrators.
- "brace for impact" (att)- all models that have purchased a drop-pod can only deepstrike along the outer hull table edge. make a dangerous terrain test for each model as the pod violently penetrates the target's hull.
- "repel boarders" (deff)- the defender may deploy without restrictions (it's his ship after all) except no model may be placed closer than 12'' (or 6'') to the beachhead.
optional: use hidden deployment rules.
- "no fear!" (deff)- the defender can place a model or group of models that benefit from combat (or chapter) tactics closer than 12''/6'' to the beachhead, but each model receives a s5 ds - hit before the first tun starts as they were too stubborn to retreat in the face of the deathwind barrage.

shooting rules:
as IA 4: anphelion except:
- "hull breach": every shot fired in the direction of the outer hull that misses hits the hull instead. the hull counts as an immobilised vehicle with AV 12. every glancing or penetrating hit voids the chamber and all models inside must take a dangerous terrain check as gale force winds howl through the ship. (if there are no clearly defined rooms, the affected area is 6''x3'')
- "forced entry": sealed bulkheads count as immobilised, AV 11 (would be too easy if you could just bolter them open), glancing and penetrating hits automatically destroy them. any weapon with the "melta" special rule, including meltabombs, destroys a bulkhead without needing to roll for penetration.
that's all i can think of atm.^^

PenelopeTheWonderPony · 11 months ago

Most of these rule sets seem to be approaching this as playing an entire game of 40k between turns on a BFG board. How about this approach instead: play one turn of 40k for one turn of BFG.

A boarding action begins when a ship initiates a boarding on another. The attacker has a slightly larger force than the defender to represent them attacking en masse in a single weak point in an attempt to break the defenders, but both sides have the Without Number rule initially. This represents the attacker launching more boarders, and the defenders rushing to the breached part of their ship.

One turn of 40k is played for every turn of BFG that is played- i.e. player 1 BFG, player 1 40k, player 2 BFG, player 2 40k. The defender always has the Without Number rule, but the Attacker only has it for as long as the attacking ship remains in contact with its target. As soon as the target escapes, or the attacker is destroyed, then the boarding party loses Without Number, as it is now stranded alone on the enemy ship, and must use what forces remain on board to finish their objectives before they are eliminated.

Now, I'm not entirely certain on how the boarding mechanism works in BFG, so this might not be a workable solution, but if it could work then I think it would be an interesting way of making the BFG game impact the 40k game, as well as the other way around.

Anon · 11 months ago

There is no real boarding mechanism in BFG (at least in the traditional sense) - all the "boarding" actions are really hit-and-run, with the intent of either destroying vital systems or just wholesale crew slaughter.

grimsnikk · 11 months ago

My Ideas---
Selecting Forces
Any Models that may normally take a heavy Weapon may take an assault weapon instead at +10 points above their army's troops choice. (ie: guard heavy teams use an infantry squad. SM Dev's use Tac)
Attacker may only use units that can fit into drop pod (12 infantry, 6 40mm infantry, walkers, artillery)
Defender may only take those units, but they may take larger squads.

Movement: Represents zero-g hallways. Marines can use their mag boots, or sprint down them
All movement as Difficult Terrain.
Any models may instead use the rules for dangerous terrain, however their run moves are d6x2 inches

Shooting: Represent full rooms and the cramped hallways that connect them
Night fight rules are in play
Any weapons that get multiple shots (Rapid fire, Assault 2+, Heavy 2+) are at +1 to hit.
Blast Weapons re-roll wounds. When they scatter, draw a line from the firing model to the new center of the blast marker. If that line intersects a wall, the Blast template is placed at that intersection point.
Cover Saves: rep's equipment filled rooms, barren hallways and taking up positions near doors
-Hallways. The only saves that may be used are for models in the way
-Rooms. A unit fired at by shooter in the same room receives a (5 or 6+) save
-Junctions & Corners. A unit in a room fired at by shooter not in that room receives a (3 or 4+ ) save
Overwatch
At the beginning of the shooting phase a unit may take a leadership test. If they fail, the unit is pinned. If they pass, the unit goes on overwatch. Overwatch allows you to fire at the beginning of the next enemy shooting phase and grants the Counterattack USR.

Assault
A unit may forgo its attacks back in exchange for using shooting attacks against charging foes. The shooting attacks are resolved at -1 BS after chargers move into contact, but before pile in moves.

Terrain:
Rooms should be 1” increment squares Ranging from about 6" to about 12" (or bigger if you want!). Starting with the largest room, place in the center. A random player will select the next largest Room and place it between 12” and 18” away and aligned in the same way. The opposite player may then select any room and place it in the same way, either from the center piece or the piece most recently placed. Switch until out of pieces. Each player may then connect two rooms using 1” wide hallways at right angles. Switch until every room connects to another room. Hallways may intersect. The rooms may need to be slightly adjusted to fit hallway lengths.

Missions: Play these in addition to the 3 in 5th ed. Roll a d6 instead of d3 to select your mission
Lighting assault: Every room is treated as an objective. Units may clear the room to plant a flag.
Forward push: 2 objectives in each deployment zone.
Hold at all costs: (see 4th ed rulebook)

Deployment:
Reserves:Defender treats every room in the deployment zone as an eligible spot for reserves to arrive. The Attacker must select 1 room in their zone.
Only the Defender may Infiltrate, Only the Attacker may Deepstrike (jump & jet infantry cannot)
The Corridor:
Each Player may select 1 room in their deployment zone. The shortest path from this room to the center room should have its hallway 3” wide. The attacker must select the reserve room.
---
Some of this is based on IA4 what others have posted, and my own xp tweaking those rules for a Space Hulk style campaign. This is almost exactly 1 page. I would also say that for large games players should be able to pick from a list of strategic assets. We would need 1 list for attacker, 1 for defender. 1 would be allowed at 1500, and an extra for every 500 points above that.

That being said, I like RTI's idea of the 3 densities. I would use these rules for the "Labyrinth" density, but I really like the idea of the open and dense settings

Paul · 11 months ago

Ok, so I agree that pretty much all of the stuff said so far is pretty awesome. I really want to play a boarding action now. But I think that there should be no limit to the strength of weapons taken by either side. NOw I can see not bringing large blast weapons, but missile launchers and lascannons should be fine. I think back to "Flight of the Eisenstein" where Mortarion is frying everybody with his lantern. Granted he is a Primarch, but he wasn't too worried about Hull integrity. And I recall that many areas of a ship are cramped, but often there are areas described in the fluff as being large and spacious. So everything doesn't need to be as cramped as a 747 or a cruise ship.

chickenherder5 · 11 months ago

Here is my take on the rules

NO bikes, jet bikes,calvary, Vehicles (besides Walkers), beasts may be taken. Carnifexes, Wraith lords, War walkers, Hive tyrants, IG heavy wepon teams, or inquisiton orbital wepons may not be taken.

Wepon modifications.

All heavy wepons cause pinning. Flame templates since there is no were to run to but back into your own troops. Templates cuase 2D6 more wounds. Tau battle suits may not make thier jet pack assult move.

Terrain:

Boarding actions are bloody afairs corpses line the halls, lights flickering on and off, and smoke fills the hall way. Not mention its just hard to march through a corridor ankle deep in slippery gore while bullets are whizzing by your face. Hince all movemeant is considered to be in Difficult area terrain. Providing a 6+ cover save.

Line breaker units:

Each faction has certain troopers who march side by side in tight formation guns a' blazin' to break through enemy lines. These unints have the stubborn, relentless, and furious charge rules. But only one unit may be upgraded to a line breaker squad (at no additional charge) may be included in an army. Units that may be upgraded to line breakers are (chaos)terminators, wraith guard, orgyns, warriors(trynaid), Incubi, Blood crushers,Mega nobz, Irmortals,seraphim, and stealth suits.

Deploymeant: Attackers will move onto the board out of a entry hatch(es). 1unit at a time. Defenders will deploy out of armories(plural). Which are specified places on the board where defenders would rush out of to intercept enemy troops. They move out of these one unit at a time. Hatches are simply ingored as they have probaly already been breached.

No scattering through WALLS

Missions well see the rule book.

Attackers always get first turn

Sorry for the bad gramar and bad order.

TSINI · 10 months ago

"NO bikes, jet bikes,calvary, Vehicles (besides Walkers), beasts may be taken. Carnifexes, Wraith lords, War walkers, Hive tyrants, IG heavy wepon teams, or inquisiton orbital wepons may not be taken"

What? a dreadnought walker may be taken but 2 guys can't carry a gun smaller than themselves along the same corridoor?

are you mad?

Savark · 11 months ago

i can't be bothered to do the whole thing, but i would say the defender can use tanks

Shifty Elephant · 11 months ago

How about a modified version of the 4th edition Combat Patrol Rules for picking an army??

Maybe 500pts and vehicle restrictions?
500 point games are good fun to play.

The Hobo Hunter · 11 months ago

Somebody mentioned the idea of air ducts working like Sewer Rats from Cities of Death, and that gave me an idea.Having been quite impressed with Cities of Death, I was wondering if anyone has explored the option of using strategems to build up a scenario.

Keeping in line with the way CoD used them (and how apoc used assets), maybe we could come up with a database of assets or conditions which players could use to tailor their armies/scenarios for the battle. just a few off the top of my head:

Wargear and Training:
Lascutters - open bulkheads etc
Breaching torpedoes - Somehow improve the chances of the attacking player getting first turn as the defenders pick themselves up from the violent boarding assault.
Close Quarters Fighters - increase BS when firing in corridoors as the troops are experienced at close-quarters battles. Decrease BS for any shots over 1/2 the weapons' range.

Battlefield:
Air ducts - like sewer rats from CoD
Vacuum - models all suffer -1 to saves, otherwise the same vacuum rules from 5th ed book
Explosive Decompression - due to the battle being fought near the exterior of the ship, any shots over a certain strength aimed in the direction of a chosen side have a chance at blowing through the wall. Not sure on specifics but it should probably involve stuff dying pretty horrifically.


Defenses:
Bulkheads - 1d3+3 bulkheads placed around the corridoors of the battlefield. Treat them as sealed with an AV.
Doomsday Device - the player's allies have access to a melta torpedo or similar, and are prepared to set it off in the face of defeat. At the beginning of one of their turns, they can declare they are arming it.
Turn declared - detonates on 6+
Next turn - 5+
next, 4+ etc
Once it detonates, game is declared a draw, with all forces killed.
Promethium Barriers - flamers/heavy flamers may be used to set walls of fire instead of firing normally. Place a line to indicate the wall (6 inches?). For the next turn, enemy models crossing the flames will take a hit of equal strength/AP as the weapon would normally deliver. The flames dissipate next turn.

Thats just what I thought of in a few minutes. I'm not even going to pretend they're balanced or playtested, but I think the idea can certainly be worked on.

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

I have comments are up page :) i was a big fan CoD 2

Bloodthirster · 11 months ago

Not Call of Duty and i mean suggested strategems

Nick · 11 months ago

Just a quick one and prehaps a bit rubish. Necrons should be able to phase through walls prehaps. Secondly the Star Phantoms seem to be good at bording actions so prehaps they have use of extremly acurate teloporters or some kind of phasing technology allowing them to walk through walls (prehaps an upgrade to a squad. Just some ideas

MadLarkin · 11 months ago

how about the defenders have 25%-50% more points than the attacker (e.g. 1000 pts of attacker vs 1500 of defender or similiar) but the only a a quarter of the defender's forces can start on the board with the rest in reserves to represent the defenders stretching their forces out so they respond to the boarding actions wherever they are, also makes the attackers have to play quick and raid like since if they stick around too long they'll be overwhelmed.

Heavygear · 11 months ago

I picture ship to ship combat in a Space Hulk like environment. The Forgeworld rules for the Anphelion base seem ideal for close quarters fighting of shipboard actions with a few changes.

25mm and 40mm infantry bases only.

Deployment

Role off to determine who is attacker and who is defender. High role chooses.

The defender, representing the ships crew, may deploy units anywhere on the table.

The attacker picks up to 4 entry points 12" wide along any of the table edges. This represents the attackers , docking, boring, blasting, warp jumping, etc through the ships outer hull. The attacker deploys his or her forces at these four points.


Movement

Confined spaces effect movement and shooting is at close range.

No jump infantry, fleet, or beasts

All models move 6" and assault 6"

Shooting

All weapons hit on 2+

No barrage weapons

Cover

4+ cover save for models being fired at through another unit.

Cover Saves - I would have true line of sight and increase cover saves a bit to offset the devastating 2+ to hit rules.

True Line of Sight

Models in the open - no save

50% of model behind cover use the following rules.

Models in a room with furniture, crates, alcoves, machinery, etc - 4+ saves

Models at corners or junctions providing cover - 4+ saves

Blast weapons much more deadly in close quarters. No cover saves vs. Blast weapons.

Assaults

Works as standard rules except

Units being assualted have the option to "Stand and Shoot" but give up the first turn of hand to hand combat. High initiative goes first. Close quarters nature allows defenders shooting attack at double the shooter's initiative up to a maximum of value of 10.

Assaulting models in cover - as per standard rule book.

Grenades as per standard - rulebook.

Sentry guns - May be deployed in rooms or corridors. May "stand and shoot" with initiative of 10.

Doors - The doors will likely be sealed once the enemy threat is discovered. Move a model to within 1" of the door. Role D6. On a 6 the door is unsealed. On 1-4 door is sealed and must be destroyed or the lock must be circumvented. To open inflict a single glancing or penetrating hit vs. AV12.

Infiltrators - Not every enemy will come in with both guns blazing. Models with the infiltrate special ability may infiltrate per the standard rules even though this is infiltrating into a transport.

Deepstrike - Units will deep strike as per normal rules.

Special Rules and Equipment

Teleport / Deep strike homing beacons. 25 pts each. Deep striking into the confined space of an enemy vessal is risky. It is a desperate or callus commander that waists elite troops with this tactic.

To offset the dangers units which deploy normally or infiltrate may set homing beacons during the shooting phase for deep striking units. The beacon must be identified by an appropriate gaming token, marker or model of some type.

Deep striking units will home in on the beacon and deploy per the rulebook but may deploy in a circle around the beacon begining on the turn after the beacon is set with no scatter role needed.

Critical functions / Hull Breach - Shooting in the confines of a ship is not like shooting on the battlefield. The goal is to keep the ship intact until your mission has been accomplished. High powered weapons and explosives may damage critical equipment, power couplings, conduits, etc. or cause a hull breach resulting in combatants being sucked into the icy vacuum of space.

Any model or unit firing weapons at strength 4 or greater who role three or more 1's in a shooting phase role on the critical dammage chart.

1-2 - No damage

3-4 - damage to a critical system - "We have coolant leak down here! Very Dangerous!
A stray shot has damaged a coolant / poisonous gas/ pipe or high voltage conduit. Combatants must immediately fall back 12 " or take D6 strength 6 hits.

5-6 - Hull Breach! A stray shot has breached the ships hull or hit a power coupling causing a massive explosion. The shooters opponent may place a large blast template anywhere on the shooters unit he chooses. All models under the template take a strength 9 hit.

Draxx66 · 11 months ago

GW had some rules for indoor fighting back in the RT era when they released a set of floor plans for 40k and judge dredd rpg, could be useful. Also got myself GURPs Traveller 'Emperess Minarva' far trader ship floor plans, which are in 28mm scale. They also do several other small ship floor plans.
could be useful.

Mellon · 11 months ago

Loads of really clever ideas here. I'll add some of my own, inspired by lots of spacehulk back in the days and taking special care to connect the boarding action to the BFGbattle.

New terrain type: Corridor.
A corridor is typically about 1” wide, and noticeably longer.
Movement: Models with slightly bigger bases than the corridor with may move freely, but they block line of sight and movement for their friends. Jump infantry must move as infantry due to the low ceiling. Cavalry might be allowed to dismount and walk. Monstrous creatures, vehicles, bikes etc etc may not enter Corridors.
Shooting: All blasts that have the center of their marker in a corridor extends 1” extra along the corridor. All templates that are placed entirely in corridor area extends an extra 2” along the corridor.
If a unit does not run, it may take a 6+ cover save against shooting from hugging the walls. They do not count as defending cover when assaulted.
Wounds are allocated beginning with the frontmost character and away from the attackers. Once every member of the squad has got one wound to save against, start over allocating from the closest one.
A unit blocks line of sight from any other friendly units, but not for its own members.
Assault: The frontmost 3 fighters of both forces in a corridor may fight in assault. Wounds are allocated as for shooting above. Due to the press of bodies and the expectancy of people to die, any combat that ends with only one wound difference is considered a draw.


Force organisation chart and points values:
My most novel idea here is to use assymetric sizes for the attacker and the defender, based on the Boarding Modifiers from the BFG advanced rulebook page 34. Each Boarding Modifier is worth, say 200p, adjust for preffered scale of battle. You might want to ignore the bonus for being a specific race. I'm not sure how that modifier affects balance with the rest of BFG.

Assault boats, Boarding torpedoes and similar have to be assigned a set points value if you want to fight out their hit and run attacks. I'd guess about 200-250p per hit and run effected. The defensive force is based on the remaining damage points of the defender (say 100p each), with a Ld test to be allowed to deploy half of his force on the board from the beginning. Everyone else is in reserve. Teleport attacks are very quick, so against them all the defenders units start in reserve. Hit and run attacks are likely to have plant-the-bomb-type missions.

It was a long time since I played BFG, so some of the suggested point values above might have to be modified. Also, these are all pretty pointless if you intend to just play a 40k scenario in the setting.

Only force organisation restriction is 0-1 HQ, with 1 extra HQ allowed for each full 1000p. Some restrictions on tanks, cavalry, etc etc might be appropriate, unless the defender happens to transport a few Leman Russ-companies :-) It also depends on what board setup you want to use. With only corridors and a few 3”x3” rooms, space hulk-style, anything larger than infantry will be useless.


Blips:
One of the really strong points of space hulk is the scanner-blips that move around. There have been a lot of good points about them made above, I'll add my favs: 1 blip may “transport” up to 6 models and moves at the pace of the slowest model in the transported unit. Terminator armour counts as two models, dreadnoughts and monstrous creatures as 10 etc, as per the transport rules in apocalypse. If a squad needs several blips to fit it, the blips must maintain a 6” unit coherency. You don't have to tell your opponent what a blip contain, nor what blips make up squads. They must however be numbered underneath so you can reveal them with an “Aha!”, pointing to your armylist. In the start of your movement phase you may choose to reveal any units you control. Then place the models as close as possible on and around the blip(s), as per the deep-strike rules, without placing any in difficult terrain. If you cannot _possibly_ fit all of a squad wihtin 6” of any blips it was transported in, extra models are lost. You cannot convert a unit back into a blip once it is revealed.

If a blip comes wihtin Line of Sight of an enemy (remember to test for nightfighting if relevant) that unit is instantly revealed and the enemy place the models as above. If any models have to be lost, the units owner choose them. This will interrupt normal turn sequence.

“I can feel a disturbance in the warp...” All psykers gain the “Warpsense” psycic power. If you pass the psycic test you can ask your opponent to point out all blips that contains at least one model that counts as a psyker.

Some blip-related equipment. Some of these might be available as Assets or similar.
Scanner: Instead of shooting or running in the shoting phase you may select one blip on the board and attempt to reveal it. Roll 2d6x3, if the blip is in range its squad is revealed and you may place the models. Cost 10p, only available to characters that are HQ-choices.

Jammer: Gives a 4+ save against having your blip scanned. 10p per unit.

Cloaking devices: This Blip may “transport” up to 10 models.15p per uppgraded blip, added to the units cost. This upgrade does not need to be announced to your opponent. Just note down the number of cloaked blips bought at the end of the armylist. Makes for good sneak attacks, but watch out for lack of room when revealing your blip.

The biggest benefit of blips are the sneaky movement and the time saved by not having to shuffle large squads across the board.


Overwatch. In the cramped confines of a spaceship it is much easier to cover potential attackpaths with automatic fire. A squad where the majority of the members could fire at least 2 shots this shooting phase may instead opt to go into overwatch. This is done at the beginning of the shooting phase and they will then do nothing more this turn, but will count as defending a 5+ cover until their next turn begins, due to the amount of covering fire they can lay down. This extends to making assaulters roll for difficult terrain and striking at I1. Offensive grenades can offset the initiative modifier as normal.

Optional advanced overwatch rules: If the overwatching squad is already defending a cover, they will get a +1 bonus to their coversave, and a squad assaulting them will not be able to benefit from offensive grenades, and will then (usually) strike at I1. Also template weapon can be used for overwatch. That squad will then count as being armed with defensive grenades.


Hazards of Space. Pretty optional rules really, but can help with the random and unforgiving nature of combat on board of huge battleships.
After the attacker have deployed, roll a D6 to see exactly what hazard is active. Add +1 for each of the following: Ship has taken damage, Ship in contact with at least one blastmarker. Ship within 15cm of warprift.

If the ship is crippled, roll twice and apply both results.

For each hazard, roll on the following table
D6
1-3 Steady she goes. No ill effects.
4 Stabilizers offline: Zero-G, see WH40k rulebook, p 271
5 Power Lapse: Nightfighting.
6 Hullbreach: Vacuum, se WH40k rulebook, p 271
7 Warpleak: All psycic test cause Perils of the Warp on any double rolled. All models teleporting must take a dangerous terrain test. Daemons may reroll failed reserves tests to enter.
8 She's breaking up: At the beginning of each players turn, roll a D6. On a 1, every unit on the board is hit by a “preliminary bombardment”, see 4th ed WH40k rulebook, p194
9 Warpbreach, as per warpleak. Plus place a vortex grenade marker in the middle of the board and scatter it 4D6”. See Apocalypse p187 for behaviour, but it will not dissapear on a double.


Well, I think that's all. I'm really looking forward to see what BoLS piece together from all these great suggestions.

rahveel · 11 months ago

tossing in a few pennies of my own, necromunda rules could be easily tied in for things like shooting modifiers in close quarters fighting.

I think we pretty well established in a prior thread that the best way to run this would be for all chapters to use the SM codex, so there is not to much of an issue (in the scope of the badab campaign) as to the use of things like crisis suits, DP's, tryants and the like.

some of the best fluff on boarding actions I have read (outside the BFG material) was in the souldrinkers first novel, and the CSM codex (namely the section on the AC's vrs the SW's).
from these sources, it seems like much of a successful assault on an ship or station depends on the ability to cut your opponents lines of reserves, and control certain choke points. the rest seems to rely on stopping your opponent from forming a unified assault on your positions.

basically, I feel that reserves should feature heavily in boarding actions. expand rules as to were they arrive, and create a modifiers table that affects their roll to show up.

: Example Scenario : (using either of the objective based missions)
deployment :
- the defender begins a 1000pt game with 250 pts of troops on the table. (Scaled for larger/smaller games) additional crew is also deployed at this time. the attacker holds all models in reserve, 250 points of these reserves form the 'breaching party'
- the defender may deploy anywhere on the table (including on objectives). This represents the troops already in defensive positions across key points.
- after the defender deploys, the attacker chooses a board edge, and places D3+1 breaching counters at any point along it. These counters represent the points of the bulkhead the attackers have successfully breached. First turn goes to the attacker.
-Deepstrike. Troops may only deepstrike via teleport, and only if a teleport attack was initiated against the ship the boarding action is taking place on.

BREACH!!

On the first turn, the attackers may choose what breaching counter they arrive on. Roll a D6 for each unit not part of the breaching party. On the roll of a 6, this unit may join the breaching party. On the turn they arrive, the breaching party may move and shoot as normal, although they count as having moved regardless for the sake of firing weapons.

2nd turn onwards.

Both sides roll for reserves as normal (modified by the reserves table). The defending player may deploy his reserves as if they have the outflank special rule. When reserves arrive for the attacker, they arrive at a randomly determined breach counter (representing the difficulties in forming an assault in such a chaotic assault).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Reserves Table
Apply these modifiers to any roll for reserves.

+1 - Defender. The defender is intimately familiar with the layout of there own ship. They always gain this bonus to reserve rolls
+1/-1 – holding an objective. If you currently control an objective, you may choose to add 1 to your own reserve rolls, or subtract 1 from your opponents. You may only modify this by one, even if you control multiple objectives, and must choose to either the bonus or penalty, not both.
+2 – Boarding action. If a boarding action (thunderhawks/boarding torpedoes, ect..) is initiated against the ship, the attacker gains +2 to their reserve rolls that turn. This does not include teleport attacks. Teleport attacks automatically deploy a teleporting unit onto the table, no reserve roll is needed.
-3 – She’s Breaking up! Troops begin to hesitate boarding a ship that is about to go critical, and defenders scramble for life-pods. If the ship is taken down to half its hits, this penalty is applied against both sides.

Xianator · 11 months ago

I think the deployment aspect and end-game are particularly important.
I don't think the standard game turn limit of 5-7 turns really is enough to portray an involved boarding action.

Plus, after the boarding party does their thing, they're going to need to vacate the premisis. So, that might need to be taken into account as well...

Xianator · 11 months ago

I've given this some thought and am working on a ruleset now.

DaGenruL · 10 months ago

Burna Boyz just got a lot deadlier.
"'Ere Boss der 'oled up in dat room"..... WHOOOOSH
"Not any more Boss".

DaGenruL · 10 months ago

Burna Boyz just got a lot deadlier.
"Ere Boss dey're fortified in da bridge"......
WHOOOOOSH
"Not any more".