DISQUS

Anon · 5 months ago

Kind of off topic, but anyone who has not seen the live action 40k cutscenes from Epic 40,000: Final Liberation is seriously missing out.

Devious · 5 months ago

Agreed! That poor guy in the satellite...

MarcusZ · 5 months ago

seriously? I think they are extremely poor made for a 1997 game. Look at Command&Conquer (1995) or Warcraft II (1995) for great cutscenes.

K · 5 months ago

what GW should be focussing on, instead of phasing out these game systems is incorparating these specialist systems into the main systems ie: planet strike should be linked to gothic and epic, kill teams should be revived and linked to all the 40k based systems, and warmaster should be an alternative to legendary battles in campaigns.

then there are a few odd ball systems which could be brought back and linked: Man O' War, Space Hulk, and probably the two oddest (not extinct) are Necromunda and Inquisitor. both of these could easily be used in a character based 40k campaign set on a penal planet or heretic ridden world.

Oh and I forgot, GW should be hamming up 5 armies as the Hobbit is due out in a year an a half or so

I am only 18, but love these systems and am open to trying them all and hope GW does not phase them out, as so much of the flavor and fluff that the games are known for comes from these unique creations, and I completely forgot Blood Bowl and Aeronautica, well thats my peace (more golden daemon categories for specialist games needed)

TheDude · 5 months ago

I would hate to see Epic 'linked in' to Planetstrike/Warhammer 40,000.

To do that, you'd have to 'dumb down' the tactical complexity of the Epic game, and then suddenly it'll become a game intended for the same demographic as the Core games are intended for (kids/teenagers).

The USP of Epic is not 'bigger battles', but 'more adult-appropriate rules'.

Anonymous · 5 months ago

"To do that, you'd have to 'dumb down' the tactical complexity of the Epic game, and then suddenly it'll become a game intended for the same demographic as the Core games are intended for (kids/teenagers)."

I think you misread his intent - these systems all exist in a single setting, why not provide the opportunity for them to interlink the way they naturally should? Put out a book that promotes cross-game campaigns, series of Battlefleet Gothic games that, depending on the outcome, provide benefits for later games of Epic, which in turn can affect regular scale games of 40k or Apocalypse. It could be something for even just a few buddies who gather every week in a spacious gaming basement who are dedicating to creating scenarios to play out, or a store event spanning a summer.

Heck, they could even bring in side-missions using Inquisitor - obtaining valuable intelligence or artifacts having an effect on the main campaign.

K · 4 months ago

thank you, at the back of the appocalypse reload book their is a basic example that if modified could be used as a method for interlinked games based on the outcomes of one affecting the play type of the other ie: a planet strike mission using the points system given in the gothic book which talks about transport ships holding 500pts worth of individuals in them, and depending on the number of transports that make planet fall the attacker playing 40k or epic has a unique points value were the defender has a set value, making for a game which could change the course of a campaign via sweeping planet fall, or brutal failure of the agressor, that was my idea, on a separate note one could run a space hulk or inquisitor game inside a gothic ship and the outcome of that could affect the capabilities of the ship in a following battle, or even more simple just having GW produce a book that has a heavily linked back story, like a novel about a combined arms operation

xNickBaranx · 5 months ago

I'm not going to go through and read all the comments so this may have already been said, but as a former GW employee I will state that the huge disadvantage of the Specialist Games is the limited purchasing. Once you own 3 or 4 Necromunda gangs - you're absolutely maxed out and that's if you even get to that point. So what was your total investment? $200? $250? Most of the other Specialist Games have the same limited revenue caps.

I remember one of my regulars at both the FLGS I was part owner of, and later at GW Walden Galleria, had gotten immeasurably frustrated because he had bought into Necromunda, Epic, Gorkamorka, and BFG (on top of the 40K and Fantasy that he already played) and he only ever played each game once because of the limited interest those games hold. They are much more niche oriented. Gorkamorka was an amazingly fun game, but had an extremely limited fanbase because if you don't like Orks, you've already been lost.

As GW aged they learned many lessons about sales cycles and profit viability. Apocalypse and Planet Strike are great examples of this as they remove the caps that limit what people spend on 40K. Only maniacs and completists would consider owning 6 Elites choices and 6 Fast Attack choices. Now it totally makes sense. And there is a synergy there because all of these expansions cross pollenate with one another maxing out your potention for both narrative AND tournament play. Limiting yourself to 1500 or 2000 points and then moving on has effectively been scrapped.

Varient systems, conversely, without playing some sort of involved compaign have very limited or no synergy and extremely limited sales potential.

The point about losing GW dollars as veteran gamers mature and explore other systems - anyone I know who likes to dive headlong into every system that comes along does so outside of the GW universe anyway. They just love gaming so much that they buy systems they will never play. They collect everything - Flames of War, Confrontation, Hordes, anything that strikes their fancy. And most of it sits in the closet and the dollars spent on each are often limited as they flit from one to the next.

Finally, you know that if they devoted the resources necessary to flesh out the maximum potential of any of these systems there would be outrage. "Why are they devoting all of these resources to Epic: Armageddon when I don't have a new Daemonhunters Codex!" they will scream.

And I'm not a hater. I own Necromunda gangs and BFG fleets. My entire IG army is composed of Cawdor gangers and I would love to get some new sculpts to diversify the look of my squads rather than converting everything. But I understand economic viability and I get that it just makes more sense to put out a Kill Team expansion than to revisit Necromunda no matter how cool it is.

Tony · 5 months ago

Nick: I just commented on your blog, as I too, live in Buffalo. Technically Amherst, but who's splitting hairs?

Anyway, my gaming group just finished a 3 month long fantasy campaign early. Mostly because the 2 strongest armies, Vamps and Dark Elves, were never beaten for the 2 months that we played. So we all made the switch to Mordheim. Most of us had the models we are using in the campaign already, so it was a relatively cheap switch. I, however, purchased a couple of Skaven boxes because I did not want to use my Lizardmen in a Mordheim campaign. What the hell would they be doing in the city anyway?

But, after doing alot of research there are alot of sites out there that have been keeping the ruleset going. There are also several sites that have been updating the rules so that they make a little more sense and the games has run much more smoothly than I remember from all those years ago when it first came out.

I just think it would be nice to see some support from GW, hell even if they just gave you a link so a website that updated the rules. Would've saved me some time.

Sidenote: Mordheim "Warphunter" box: $29.75, 10 models. Skaven Night Runner box (same EXACT models): $35.00, 20 models. Just thought that was funny.

Ssyrie · 5 months ago

You hit the nail right on the head.

The problem with Specialist Games is the limited income GW gets from them. Most players are probably only going to purchase 2-3 teams/gangs/armies/fleets at most. And once they have them, they stop buying miniatures. Yea I know there's a few people out there that own one of every Blood Bowl team or every Necromunda gang out there, but then what? There's no more to buy.

As for a Kill Team expansion, I would definitely buy that. If the do make it, they should also add support for fielding hive gang teams as well. As much fun as I had playing Necromunda, most campaigns got too bogged down in all the between battle bookkeeping. I want to fight, not deal with my gangs human resource issues.

Anonymous · 4 months ago

Simple answer: look at Heroclix.

Take Blood Bowl.
Remove the excessive gore, add even more comedy to make it family friendly.
Release the game with cheap-and-cheerful, pre-painted models (like Heroclix's), and aggressively market it to the mainstream kiddie market.
Turn it into one of these new "Can't see what models you're buying" kind of deals.
Apply for licenses from other companies - have Blood Bowl teams of Predators, Aliens, even Dragonball Z! (Because frankly, GW's vertically integrated business model creates as many problems as it solves - Space Marines might sell well, but I bet Marvel heroes sell more).
Critically, you then sell new game through mainstream outlets, keeping 40K "exclusive" to GW shops. I've seen Heroclix for sale in comic shops, computer game shops, Teso, Argos... Crappy models, but you can't argue with their sales.

All these mainstream releases = Sudden interest in the company, spike in profits.

GW is a bit like Vince MacMahon of the WWE: embarassed by their product. VKM doesn't want to admit he's producing a wrestling show, so he calls it "sports entertainment". He's embarassed to call his employees wrestlers, so he calls them "superstars".

All to avoid mainstream embarassment, when the bottom line is, the mainstream generally hates wrestling!

"GW doesn't make toys: it makes miniatures! They're totally different!"

Well, yes... but also no. The hobby is the key difference... but how about the executives saying, "Well, we'll make Blood Bowl's GW's kid's game, 40K is the late teens game, and Epic is the game the adults play?"

None of it true of course... just specifically targetted marketing. All of which gets them revenue.

If you deliberately reduce the quality of the "kid's game" models (like the terrible Heroclix sculpts), then you achieve several business goals. Firstly, you increase market visibility. Secondly, you increase market saturation. Thirdly, you deal with the problem of those people who just won't enter a GW store (because who's got the bigger market reach: GW or Tesco's / Wal-Mart?). Fourthly, you appeal to those people who are put off by the insane level of dedication "the hobby" requires - not everyone wants to have to assemble and paint their models. And finally, you juxtapose with your own model lines: those 40K/Fantasy sculpts just look amazing by comparison, thus encouraging those kids attracted by the Blood Bowl to come to the other games later on.

Makes sense to me.

Anonymous · 4 months ago

Jumping on that wagon right after the horses pulling it broke free sure sounds like a great idea, alright...

Anonymous · 4 months ago

What? Heroclix may well be going down now - the market is, as ever, cyclical. Blood Bowl would be a new thing that hadn't been done before. The game systems is tried and true, it has a loyal hard core of followers, and it works.

How would releasing cheap and accessible models be a bad one?

Don't look at the sales after the fad's run it's course; look at them at the start and during...

Bottom line - I bet they're not making as much as heroclix et al as it stands, yes?

Andrew · 4 months ago

That worked really well for the warzone franchise. That collectible hex, prepainted game lasted what 2 months. CRAP CRAP CRAP. That game and that terrible movie have put the nail in the coffin of warzone, i highly doubt we will ever see it again.

Lesson go to mainstream and you will lose your target audience.

Myu · 4 months ago

I did a unit on games design and I remember this wonderful quote from it: "If you target everyone, you will hit no-one".

WES · 5 months ago

Games Workshop makes most of it's money from selling miniatures...

specialist games are all just means of generating waves of new purchases. When someone gets into one, they buy a whole new set of minis... they get their friends to play, and they all buy new sets of minis. Same thing behind rules changes or a new codex in 40K or warhammer fantasy. One army is made ultra powerful, and it lures people into purchasing a whole new chunk of minis.

If people aren't buying whole new chunks of minis, they aren't making money. So, unfortunately, it's in GW's own best interest to create games and then abandon them. I've been playing since rogue trader era, and I've seen them do with this with game after game after game.

Another factor: I think specialists games were viewed as competition for their main bread and butter... warhammer 40K and Fantasy. I've kind of based this on comments from various interviews GW founders have given over the years. If a specialist game got too big, they seemed to think it was hurting the sales of warhammer mini's. As you can see, the game is still around, and doing better then ever...

Andrew · 5 months ago

Contrary to popular belief GW is a pretty funny company. Yeah ok, he turns all your money onto plastic, but come on you knew that was going to happen.

So i'm chilling with GW and hes telling everybody about this new inquisitor game hes going to release.Hes explaining how there will be deamons and imperial guard and space marines in it. The guys at the store are just loving it.

"Cant wait to play it"

"Sounds cool"

What happens next is a thing of beauty. GW shoves these large "Inquisitor" books up their rears and steals their car.As we are driving away GW looks at me and laughs" wait till they find out the minis are 120mm scale.....and then after they buy them I'll cancel all support".

Well GW laughs so hard we hit a telephone pole and i break my collarbone. The kicker, GW sends these guys the repair bill by raising the prices on all their miniatures, again.

Funny guy that GW

GR00V3R · 5 months ago

Yes, I think you're on the money there. It's a lame arguement, though, that SG sales impact their 40K sales. For a start, even if it were true, GW is _still_ getting the money, just from multiple channels rather than one (which tends to provide for more secure revenue).

Personally, though, I think it's more akin to the downloaded music thing: Let's say a person downloads a song. Is that lost income to the publisher? Only if you assume the downloader _would_ have purchased the song if it was not available for download. You can't make that assumption--it is quite likely that, if the song were worth paying for, it's likely the downloader would have paid for it--ongoing sales of CDs support this theory.

Anyway, just saying I agree with you. In a very long-winded fashion. A very, very long-winded fashion. :)

BDub · 5 months ago

I think both of you are skirting around the hard truth that no one likes to admit (including GW) - SGs do not significantly impact revenue for core games. In fact they don't even show up on the radar. SG are too beardy - by that I mean that by the time someone is investing in an SG they have pretty much exhausted their need to buy minis from core games. At this pont GW is done with them.

GW is engineered for one thing and that is to produce, market and sell new product in large quantities. If your not buying into that - if you are only picking up the odd codex or new unit or two then you are of little interest to them. This is why despite their promises to use WD as a vehicle for gaming articles, rules expansions and scenarios (you know, ongoing content support) it remains a brochure of eye-candy designed to get new gamers into the fold faster than they are losing gamers on the back end to SGs or competing products.

What's the solution? They should stay the hell out of the SGs market unless introducing a new system and just keep doing what they do best - keeping the core games alive and producing crap loads of new minis. BUT WAIT! you say, what about my SGs addiction? For this GW owes it to its aging fan base to reasonably license the production and support of SGs to smaller more focused companies. Let one or more third parties produce and sell BFG, EPIC, Warmaster and even Man O' War minis and source materials. GW would still maintain its right of approval over all production materials, as it does with its video games licenses and yet they wouldn't have to worry about diluting there production capabilities supporting these tertiary products - in fact the licensing would be generating revenue for GW with no overhead attached to it and everyone would be happy that their favorite SG is being actively supported by a GW sanctioned production house. It really is a WIN, WIN, WIN scenario.

Wake up GW! I am personally ready to start doing just what I suggested.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

AMEN! I would love it if GW would license their SG to other companies. We all thought that Forgeworld would take over epic but then they just dumped it for their own Aeronautica Imperialis.

They should look at how good Fantasy flight games is doing with their RPG compared to how crappy Black Industries was handling it.

Get the Specialist Games out of house so they can have a life of their own or they will just suffocate and die.

Anonymous · 4 months ago

Imagine Epic done by Fantasy Flight: their Doom Boardgame had, like, 140 really high-quality miniatures for £40! It'd be even better than the old Space Marine boxed set!

Andrew · 5 months ago

Actually i think its the opposite, i mean that because i liked thier other games i spent so much more money. I never let my fantasy or 40k army go wanting....but i still purchased bloodbowl, epic, necromunda, spacehulk...etc
If all they had was 40k and fantasy, they would have gotten much less money.....But that was back when you could afford the plastic crack addiction on a high school jobs pay. I think now i couldnt afford to just play 40k anymore, and im an adult with a real job.

duder · 5 months ago

GW still lives in a time where companies really didn't use the internet as a form of communication to it's customers and really only had an online store (as they do now). I wonder when they're going to learn to evolve their marketing and corporate policy, maybe another dip in their stock holdings will do it?

manton · 5 months ago

I'm not sure that they live in a time before the net, simply because the old GW website was friggin awesome. They had all sorts of sweet modelling articles for every race, paiting and coverting tutuorials as well as background stuff that had otherwise just disappeared. I think they even had some old Space Hulk rules and tutorials about how to make your own hulk. Put simply the day those sites started closing down i just drove my chevy to the levy, but sadly the levy was dry.
The new site just makes me want to spew. It's just a shop with some 50 word articles and then purchase suggestions, it's insulting really. I do like the more easily accessible SG rules like BFG and junk (free PDF), but otherwise it's sad.

MarcusZ · 5 months ago

While I agree with you, that the old pages had a huge amount of great content, I think that you really didn't give the new page a real chance.

I admit the new system has a few (minor) flaws, but from a technical standpoint as well as usability it is just light-years ahead of the old pages.
Notice system vs. pages? The old GW websites (at least the German ones) haven't even been managed by a system. It was a bunch of completely different looking pages (besides the shop, that was the same system as in the uk/us) that (my guess) have not been managed by any kind of CMS because they looked like they were hand written html.

The new website is slowly filling up with content and there are articles with like 500 to 1000 words (and more), not 50 as you say.

The main problem imho is that GW has not nearly enough staff to take care of their web-pages. It took the UK staff 2 weeks! to figure out that my order had disappeared from their system (I got a confirmation email, but the order somehow never got stored in their system). I mailed the German staff about wrong locations of the Austrian stores in their map-tool months ago! They are still showing up in the wrong locations (halfway across the city).

No wonder they don't have the time to convert the old articles (at least the ones that still have relevance)

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

The old US website was actually very good, user friendly, and had a tankerload of good articles (Black Gobbo anyone?). They pretty much dumped all that when they went to the new system and it is craptastic by comparison.

The Ironic thing is that in the US when the new website went live, Everybody passed around the links to the german site so they could still get the content that got deleted.

Josh · 5 months ago

I think a way to get people excited about SG again would be to update the rules, and add knew hobby articles to the website. The GW people don't seem to realize that there are whole communities of people developing this materials and who would be willing to share their work gratis just to see their work published. GW doesn't realize that you don't have to make new Necromunda miniatures to sell miniatures, but if you publish an article on GW's website showing how to convert Escher models from Eldar models, or Orlock minis from Catachans, this would sell plastic, and someone on the web would create this tutorial just to see there work on the website. If GW could cultivate these fans they could create a ground swell of excitement with little effort on their part.

AoM · 5 months ago

That's a really good point.

Necromunda's a bit stale, but tweaking the rules a bit with things added by fans, and putting up articles for how to use the current models to convert them into the models you'd need is a good idea. 4th Edition Kill Team sucked, but a mix of Kill Team and Necromunda would be great.

Mordheim has one of the best online communities out there. Border Town Burning is an awesome supplement, and it's easily good enough to be published officially.

Anonymous · 4 months ago

Necromunda needs to be adapted and called "40K: Killteam".

Every race gets a set of "gang" types, and we don't have to use those ugly, UGLY models any more!

shakespear · 5 months ago

they are also the last company that doesnt clarrify rules "offically" via the internet

Dvastator · 5 months ago

Specailist games should not, I repeat, not be lost. I got started with Rogue Trader and was introduced to Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus soon after. I love BFG and like the Epic players, I would like to get some more product support. They told us about all these loverly ship designs and haven't seen a model for any of them.

I think that they should definately keep the lines going. Older players and even younger ones who are looking for something different from standard 40K would and do love them.

Andrew · 5 months ago

I only played epic 40K once and didnt much care for it.....but i three epic armies and 2 titan legions (loyal and traitor) from the old second edition. We used to play this all the time, the formation cards made it quick to play and plan an army, we used to play this just as pick up games and it was a blast.

I've also noticed lately that GW has been shutting down other people supporting their old products. Case in point the took down chainsawwarrior.com, and now even net epic is not responding (no official word as to why).

The sad thing about epic is that it could really be a financial asset to GW, you could do epic as all plastic now, and just update the rules. I know its not the same but look at how well flames of war does.

Gw doesnt like these 6mm games, but even warmaster was good. I dont understand why they appear to really only support 2 games, fantasy and epic. I remmember when GW used to make so many different games, and they were alot of fun. League day was sunday for fantasy, 40k and bloodbowl, but thursday was fun day and we were spoiled for choices as to what fun, light games to play.

Someone else needs to come out with 6mm sci fi and fantasy games.

Andrew · 5 months ago

sorry meant they support only 40k and fantasy...and poorly at that. Heres an idea, dont release a new edition until you have all the army books done.

duder · 5 months ago

unless they can charge the same prices they do for 40k and fantasy they won't

GR00V3R · 5 months ago

Hi Andrew. Thanks for posting. :)

Just thought I'd respond to a couple of your comments.

Firstly, you mentioned you tried Epic 40,000, but didn't dig it. Epic 40,000 was the 3rd Edition ruleset, which was pretty much despised by the player base (too abstract) and led to the creation of NetEpic, which is based upon 2nd Ed. The 4th Ed and current Epic ruleset, Epic:Armageddon, is a much superior game. If you have the armies lying around and haven't tried Epic:Armageddon, I recommend giving it a go--it's a great system and heaps of fun. :)

Secondly, regarding the NetEpic site you mentioned, I think you'll find all the NetEpic development has moved to the Tactical Command forums. Try here (http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/index.cg...) and see if that's got what you were looking for.

Joe Kopena · 5 months ago

> Someone else needs to come out with 6mm sci fi and fantasy games.

There are literally dozens and dozens of sci-fi 6mm rulesets and many figure vendors out there producing great alternatives. Recognition of that is just very limited inside the GW crowd. If you poke around theminiaturespage.com for a while you will find any number of links and references to those options.


That said, more support for the Specialist Games would be awesome. I would love something a little more squad-oriented that still used 40k models, possibly like Necromunda but more focus on the main factions and battles rather than gangers. A slightly more streamlined Inquisitor focused around the 28mm models would also fit that bill.

Andrew · 5 months ago

True there are other systems, but lets face it, as bad as GW is with supporting their products, they are still pretty much the only company large enough to really do it. I've seen alot of good games dissapear because noone plays them, or the company just cant get it together. I loved warzone, and for a little bit they gave 40K a run for the money, at the end their miniature quality was really getting pretty good. But anymore it seams that if your not GW you have a limited lifespan.

I criticize GW alot, its not really because they suck, its because they have so much potential, but they just move so slow anymore. That being said they should use thier position as #1 to move people to other games. We started with fantasy, because we liked the system and the company, we moved to rouge trader, blood bowl, epic........we tried everything. It was easy to get people to invest in GW games. But now it's like they support a game for a year then discontinue it so whats the point. Man o war..got burned, confontation, got burned, epic burned, i never tried gorka morka because by then the teritory seamed familiar, but it died to.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

Actually There is a great game called Dirtside that has a massive range of miniatures and links in with a spaceship game called Full Thrust. Check out Ground Zero Games. And best of all, Their rules are free downloads!

EarOfKhorne · 5 months ago

"True there are other systems, but lets face it, as bad as GW is with supporting their products, they are still pretty much the only company large enough to really do it. I've seen alot of good games dissapear because noone plays them, or the company just cant get it together.But anymore it seams that if your not GW you have a limited lifespan."

This argument only holds up if you refuse to purchase items from multiple vendors, and want canned fluff and figs fed to you.There are plenty of good sci-fi rule sets out there (quite a few for free!) with active support on yahoo groups and the like, as well as plenty of manufacturers producing fantastic mini's in various scales/sizes...all you have to do is invest a small amount of time to find them (as has been said above, Theminiaturespage.com is a great place to start).That being said, I enjoy 40K and to a lesser extent WHFB as well as owning several incarnations of various specialist games.GW will do what is financially best for them whether it makes sense to the rest of us or not, period.I accept GW with all of its many (many) foibles and I will continue to play these games as long as it suits my interest (and that of my gaming group) to do so.I have way to much $ invested to do otherwise.;)

Asymmetrical Xeno · 5 months ago

I'm irritated at the lack of necron stuff, especially when I waited years for it only to discover by chance on the net that the old schedule died. I was very dissapointed. Then theres those recently posted epic necron sculpts that were refused from GW. I feel like im being smacked in the face by GW. I'd spend thousands of pounds if they put stuff like that out, no joke. The "alternatives" people use arent much good either, the DRM and the new wargamesfactory stuff isnt skeletal enough for my tastes :/ and you know how hard it is to get chaos androids in bulk (I hate ebay!).

Morgan666 · 5 months ago

Specialist games go with the economy. Boom or bust. No matter what the Epic game will rise from the asshes as it always has. It's Epic it has too. By the way, there used to be an Epic Tyranid army. I just sold mine, baby coming. If you play with the Space Marine rules everything was supported except Necrons and Tau. They were not around yet.

Elvis · 5 months ago

Its all advertisement, 40k is simple for the simpletons to understand, therfore force that down newbies throats.

However sepcialist games are more complex therefore it doesnt have the "Junk food" effect so costs more to promote.

Plus adults make informed decisions about what they purchase,however kids screaming at there parents want something they can hold, not a 5mm space marine, but a 28 mm one (roughly Green army man size).

Thats probably it in a nutsheel, dont forget although alot of the figures (as in employees) of GW are avid hobbyists, those in the background are in it for the money and GW has a very narrow and predictable approach to getting that money.

nothing shicking here, just what has been said and will be said time and time again :)

Completely anonymous · 5 months ago

I dabbled with 40K as a teen, and now I'm in my mid 20's I've been lurking round the internet looking at the specialist games. The main thing holding me back is lack of opponents, and due to certain difficulties (disability related) I don't want to play with just random people.

Trying to stuff these games in a "specialist games" pigeonhole was probably a bad move. When they are in a separate category they are too easily forgotten. They also didn't get much or any support from White Dwarf, which would have helped too I feel.

Making them mail order only was just a nail in the coffin for their support, it was almost an outright admission that they didn't care any more. I guess we're just lucky they didn't stop selling them entirely.

I have to admit the GW restriction on other companies making minis is hurting Epic and the other specialist games, it would be nice if they could be licensed out to a company which had them as their main objective rather than just another branch of GW. Completely self contained, but with GW retaining editorial control a bit like WFRP I guess. I can understand the reasoning, but it would make sense for exceptions in alternative scales (6mm) and for alternative environments (space). In other words, minis you can't use for 40k or fantasy.

Asymmetrical Xeno · 5 months ago

Im the same, I have agoraophobia/anxiety issues and only play with a few select good friends in a comfortable place. Glad im not alone :) I agree with the other stuff you said, id love it if other companies had the license to produce stuff like Epic (necrons, DE, witch-hunters, tyranids ect).

Kriegfreak · 5 months ago

- Less LOTR, the movie is over. How they ever hoped to maintain high sales once it was done is beyond me.

- Less concentration on side-projects like Planetstrike, "How To Paint Tanks' and various other things. Finish putting out the models for the codexes you just made and finish codexes that need it - Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons... ect.

- Actually focus somewhat on specialist games. Most of the specialist games are at least within the 40k/Fantasy setting already. Most would agree the rules for them flow much more easily than the core games do. The main people who get into specialist games - are veterans. Push the games, especially EPIC. Website, WhiteDwarf (you know that catalogue not a magazine they make people buy), God forbid they did any advertising in gaming magazines or mmo/videogame websites.

- Come out with new armies. Price is an issue with the smaller models to, it was actually CHEAPER to do with with Forge World... 40 Dollar Warlord Titan that is the same size/scale almost as a 28mm space marine is an enormous kick in the ball sac.

I'm sure there is more they could do. Its really a shame. GW makes me nuts sometimes, such good games going to waste. Word on warseer was that FW were simply doing away with most of the models (epic), and the reason the ones are gone from the site is they have no more left. /shrug. Open for speculation I guess.

MarcusZ · 5 months ago

Just a side note regarding LOTR:

As far as I know, GW wanted to base the game on the books, but didn't get the license from whoever holds the rights to it these days. So they approached New Line Cinema to base the game(s) on the movies instead. That was more like clever use of a back door and has not really much to do with the actual movies.

I think LOTR is still selling well, otherwise they would not keep releasing a steady stream of new systems/models for the range.

Skragger · 5 months ago

Even when LotR started I found myself saying the same thing "Why is GW blowing their money on this?" Its classic corporate oversight. They saw there was money in it right then, and now they're stuck producing a line that doesn't sell as well. I know quite a few gamers and none of them play LotR.

I see LotR being shelved in several years from now next to the other specialist games.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

GW is blowing money on LOTR because for the first 5 years the LOTR license gave them their biggest cash income bump in GW history. It actually allowed them to buy all that nice new plastic molding equipment that makes all those baneblades and stompas. There was a clear reason why the Mumakil was the first of the big plastics!

When they bought the license they bought it for I believe 7 years and then they bought another 3 year extension. Part of that contract was that they HAVE to make it a CORE GAME as long as they own the contract. So as long as its under original contract it has to maintain core game status so equal representation in advertising, support, and tourney support or they get slapped with breach of contract.

The problem with having 3 core games is that pretty much kills their budget for anything in the specialist games. Not to mention their managerial overhead for a game company is totally out of whack.

K · 5 months ago

LOTR is not selling well and is unfortunatly responsible for some of the companies recent financial problems, and the only reason they are not fading it out is the promise of the Hobbit movie, and a contract with New Line which forces them to maintain the game for x number of years

Devious · 5 months ago

I thought Necromunda was going to be huge when it came out. I dropped week after week of allowance into collecting and outfitting gangs. It was even better when the Glen Burnie HQ opened up and you could walk in and buy all your bits right on the spot, great for getting every weapon combo imaginable. Of course, as soon I had amassed a fair deal of gangers and terrain everyone seemingly just stopped playing. I couldn't find a game to save my life and I eventually drifted out of the hobby altogether.

Yet, like always, I get the itch and come crawling back. (Of course, it seemed the store kept moving from storefront to storefront. Quite confusing...)

So what did happened to all of those poor gangers? Induction into the Imperial Guard!

I suppose the same could be said for Mordeheim, but fortunately I never got around to wasting money on a game that I'd never get to play. Though I did get "lucky" and received a Necromancer warband from this past years x-mas swap, a fair trade for a couple of crappy A blisters. So here I am... still looking for my first game in the cursed city all these years after reading the rulebooks back when it first came out.

I was actually surprised that they had such a good SG showing at Games Day this year. Of course, this was pretty much meant having stuff for sale, but hey, at least they had their own counter. That and someone actually came dressed as Mad Donna! Emperor bless you young lady!

So yeah, burn me a copy of that Final Liberation disc! I have been looking for a copy of that for ages. That and Chaos Gate were my favorite 40k based games ever! I would still rather play some Chaos Gate than waste my time with Dawn of War. (Which I still enjoy, so no hating!) Even with its age, I still get a much more satisfying 40k experience with CG than anything since.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

I recommend Downloading them from the internet. The old disks won't run on new machines and some people have converted their .exe s to run without too much trouble. Just do a search and you should be able to find them pretty easy.

JS · 5 months ago

Don't forget time as a factor (which actually mixes with game balance).

Now I have to class myself as a "grown up" (who plays with toy soldiers), I really don't have much time what with a job, running a house and garden and all the assorted bits and bobs that come with that. I can just about manage the time to paint a few minis and play a game in an afternoon once in a while.

And as I've got older, I've become ever less attracted to powerful characters, and more attracted by the grunts.

In combination, those two really do preclude me from getting new WFB armies - I don't want the small, character-heavy ones, but I can't spare the time to put together an army of over 100 minis. 40k is similar, although less pronounced. I could put together armies at lower points value, but I find that game-balance is off below 2000/1999 points in WFB and below 1500 or so in 40k.

So that points me towards specialist games - Necromunda and Mordheim being my preferred choice. I do have the time to put together 2 or 3 gangs of a dozen of so minis, all of whom can be individual characters, and I can play a couple of games in an afternoon. Add to that some nice narrative elements (but without the work of an RPG) and I'm a happy person. The balance is pretty good (but not perfect), and the nature of the games means that opponents are often more relaxed about fiddling with rules that seem off.

Without the specialist games, I really wouldn't be playing much any more. And if I stop playing, it means I am less likely to introduce my kids to GW when I am older. If I do keep playing, I imagine they'll ask about them all by themselves.

Parcival · 5 months ago

While I mostly agree with GR00V3R, there are things where I am the perfect example for the opposite:

I started with GW products by playing Blood Bowl when it came out. It's an exciting game with only a few miniatures; perfect for a teen with limited money. Specialist games are not only a good thing for making veterans stay, they are also great to attract new ones.

From Blood Bowl I first went to Warhammer Fantasy and one year ago finally to 40K. Now that I am getting older (32 right now), my paycheck is also getting bigger and these two gaming systems are more exciting than ever. Yes, the two mainstream games can be fairly complex if intelligently played - just don't expect that from random pick-up games where one or both players would never leave home without their über-unit in the pocket.

The last point where I disagree with GR00V3R are the Epic miniatures. I am sorry, but they don't look good at all. I read all your articles here on BoLS, I can understand why one would enjoy the advanced tactics, I can even understand how one can enjoy modeling and painting these things and that it takes even more skill on that scale, but it doesn't help that I simply don't like their looks. For me, purchasing a gaming miniature is something emotional that is connected to the imaginary world in my head, but Epic simply doesn't connect there. If GW is going to stop these collections, I may feel a little bad for the true fans, but I for my part don't really care at all.

Completely anonymous · 5 months ago

In my case "disability" means issues with my sight, which happened ironically just as I grew out of 40K (3rd ed just beginning at the time). This equally makes it difficult to get around unfamiliar places, especially for gaming, and I require patience and sometimes even assistance from my opponents which I can't in good faith ask a stranger for.

Agree about Final LIberation, they seem to be on youtube for people who don't know. I always figured that "poor guy in the satellite" was a servitor in some kind of monitoring station or other. The slightly monotone voice made me think servitor anyway. My favourite was the look the Commissar gave the tech priest when the guy looked like he was going to hav an orgasm because of a creaky Warlord titan. "You must be bloody kidding me." The commissar smacking up the governor was good too though.

Soundwave · 5 months ago

GW do need to focus more on their specialist games. Especially with other systems such as Warmachine getting more popular, that provide a richer game system than 40k.

I don't play any SGs myself, but I do play Warmachine :P So Privateer Press are getting my hard scavenged student cash that would've been spent on another GW system had they given more attention.

shinohai · 5 months ago

i think they should update epic with new models and support for armies that currently arent in the range, tyranids and necrons as mentioned. for armies that are supported, the models should be redone to reflect their current designs as they are more polished and look much better then they did back then.

as far as people leaving gaming all together if they dont like 40k, i think that only happens if their experience was at a gw store. if they were in an LGS they would be surrounded by many other great games that deserve just as much attention as gw games.

mordiano · 5 months ago

Hear hear!

Bronn · 5 months ago

While I've never played Epic, as I was a latecomer to 40K, I did play a ton of Blood Bowl in my day, long before I ventured into Warhammer Fantasy. While I would say that the Role-Playing Game got me mostly into Warhammer, Blood Bowl had a part in it as well. At least with Blood Bowl, they update the rules every year or so, and it seems to be one of the better supported (if you can call it that) systems. Granted, two minis in the last year or so isn't much, but its something.

I think that something as simple as a repacking of a basic learn-to-play box with a condensed rulebook and minis for two players for some of the games would be a great step to easy exposure. Blood Bowl is already partly there with the minis and the board, but updating the rulebook and tweaking the contents slightly would be a good way to freshen up the game and invite in new players. The same could be done with skirmish games like Mordheim and Necromunda. I don't know what they could do with Epic and Warmaster, but it might be possible to make a starter set for that to capture the feel, at least on a small scale.

Andrew · 5 months ago

oh no be careful about asking them to repackage, then you get a set of kiddie games like crunch and ultramarine......Does anybody else remember when they came out with those loser intro games. They sucked so hard it would actually turn you off trying the real versions.

Skragger · 5 months ago

A re-tool of bloodbowl would be fantastic, and the fact that the video-game is coming out is a fantastic opportunity to relaunch it...

wooowoo · 5 months ago

his or HER? ahahaha

xt828 · 5 months ago

The first GW game I ever played was Space Fleet, and both BFG and Epic appeal to me quite strongly. I'd very much be in favour of continuing and expanding the minis - the players themselves seem to be handling the rules pretty well. I'd love to see a return or revamp of Man O'War, too. I see that Warmaster has had its rule system borrowed by some other games - notably Panzer Commander and Cold War Commander - due to how well designed it is.

I should note though that my experience with GW-branded PC gaming has been less than stellar. Dark Omen and Shadow of the Horned Rat were passable but very clumsy, Final Liberation introduced me to the concept of patching, DoW's expansion packs killed a very good game and DoW2 is a rather poor effort. I always thought it was a great pity that FL never got the extra races it was clearly designed to accomodate, and that it remains so buggy - iirc getting Knights to work is a pain, and it crashes from time to time. DoW started well, and boasts a very well developed mod community. That most recent WFB game was pretty poor too.

eLCee · 5 months ago

The should try to push those games more. If GW cant do it FW can, and with the price of metal FW might also be cheaper in this case.
All systems would sell much better if GW would advertise them more i think.

Bomster · 5 months ago

I'm definitely in favour of specialist games. Currently, I'm only playing Space Hulk and Aeronautica (and a bit of Blood Bowl), with plans to try BFG as soon as I've got the models painted. So further support for these games would be a great thing to keep at least me in (the fringes of) the hobby.

What I'm really missing is a decent skirmish level system. The size of 40k armies has continued to grow over the years, and the continous streamlining of the rules reflects that. All in all I don't have much of a problem with this development in the 40k rules... but:
These days I rarely play the game just because I don't really want to carry around a big army. "40k in 40 minutes" or "Combat Patrol" don't really work well as skirmish systems. The Necromunda/Mordheim rules or even Rogue Trader or 40k2 worked nicely with 10-25 models. Having a good and flexible skirmish system supporting a broad range of armies/units might encourage players to try out smaller armies of other races (in addition to their main 40k or WHFB armies).

AoM · 5 months ago

I know this is a GW-centered blog, but if you're looking for an interesting skirmish game, you've only got a month and a half to wait until Wyrd releases Malifaux. I've played Mordheim, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, Alkemy, and Pulp City, and I can honestly say that Malifaux tops them all. The rules are tight, the card mechanic instead of dice is razor sharp, and there's definitely the "broad range of armies/units" that you were looking for.

Of course, with a little effort on the part of you and your gaming group, you could take the Necromunda rules, smash in some Kill Team bits, and then just use the newer codices to stat out what you want. a box of plastic infantry, some bits, and a little creativity gives you a game using the GW stats you're already familiar with, plus the "to hit" and "to wound" rolls everyone seems to need.

Bomster · 5 months ago

As a matter of fact, I'm currently thinking about trying a game of Rogue Trader or 40k2 just for laughs (including all the RT random equipment tables or the 40k2's overblown psychic phase). I remember playing these with a rather smallish number of models.

Malifaux looks really interesting, though.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

Look up Forge of War. They just released their 2nd edition rules and they play very nicely with 40k. In fact they were specifically written as an alternative to 40k rules. The system is completely free and customizable to any game background.

Mike · 5 months ago

You still play FInal Liberation? I used to love it, as well as I loved Chaos Gate. Which operating system do you use to get it to work?

Vampire Harlequin · 5 months ago

Would it really hurt to give SG's a little push? I mean, just a few pages in White Dwarf, maybe a retro-spective on Blood Bowl now the new Cyanide-produced incarnation is available for download on PC. Gamespot had an interview with Jervis Johnson about the game, why not see the same in White Dwarf?

Is G.W. afraid that the other products will cannabalise the audience for 'The Big Three' (LotR, 40k, WHFB)? They're such massive, run-away successes, such goliaths, I can't see that a bit of coverage and support for SG's would be any kind of threat to that profitability. Gamers just want to play and collect games.

Look at the success of forge-world, it shows that gamers have an insatiable appetite for spending a lot of money on stuff that's outside the scope of the boxed-and-packaged products that are sold in the shops and inceasantly pushed in White Dwarf. A nod to the SG's every now and again could only be a good thing.

Colby · 5 months ago

This article only scratches the surface on pointing out how bad GW is at marketing. People are obviously interested in their products as demonstrated by their huge fanbase despite the fact that they ignore their specialist games customers, update models/codices/army books very slowly, give people the runaround with direct orders and ostracize entire regions in the US. (I live in the southeast) On top of that they took forever to allow people to write novels about their products, still refuse to allow any movies/TV shows/webcasts to be produced and don't even get me started on Warcraft...

So yeah, GW makes great games but they are far from being a great company. I've seen 10 year olds run lemonade stands more efficiently than GW is handled. Their mistreatment of the specialist games community is one of many blunders that would cause any undergrad business major to scratch their head in confusion.

Completely anonymous · 5 months ago

I figure GW got so big that autocracy and beurocracy are making problems. They're sucking in so much money from 40K and WHFB that things like this fail to register.

As to 40k shifting to delaing with bigger and bigger games, I noticed that too. No shock since it means more mini sales for GW, adn the prices have gone up so much since I was involved about ten years ago. It was a tenner for a tac squad and now it's £20. Sure they swapped jthe ol push fit models for multi part ones, but they had already been selling 5 multi part models for £6 in the old Warriors of the Imperium boxes.

I guess Apoc alyse and Planetstrike are selling way more minis than Epic, sadly. More is the pity, since Epic actuallly has quite a nice pace to it despite the larger scale. The interleaved turns seem to make it play a lot more quickly.

Andrew · 5 months ago

about 10 years ago in a white dwarf they had pictures where they had set up epic scale with 40k miniatures (basically big bases with 5 40k miniatures on each).I remember thinking "How expensive would it be to play epic sized games with 40K miniatures". I swear at that moment in time something evil at GW smiled. Then 10 years later "APOCALYPSE" ......They canceled epic, dumbed down 40k and now they have you playing epic with 40k miniatures.....Laughing all the way to the bank because now 40k miniatures are worth their weight in gold.

TSINI · 5 months ago

i agree, specialist games are the bit you go looking for when you're tired of the core game systems.

when you start playing 40k or fantasy at a young age, you'll probably stumble across a local gaming community, and if you're lucky enough it will be one made up of all age ranges young and old. the old bearded ones will almost certainly be playing an ancient greece/rome/egypt, colonial, or 7 years wars, or WWII, or vietnam based game, which is so complex and historically accurate, you will be intruiged as to what else is actually out there. i myself became obsessed with playing as many different demo games that were offered at gaming events held in my home town, mad max style futuristic car games, sneaky "where the hell is the enemy and why has my command tank just exploded" vietnam games and flyer based dogfighting games are all fun simply because of the change in pace caused by the different rulesets.

often you will still want to play a 40k based or fantasy based game because you love the fluff / setting / universe, so then you find epic, inquisitor, warmaster, necromunda, mordheim etc etc. the simple change in rules and a whole new game to play are a breath of fresh air whilst stil playing with your favourite armies etc.

Chaosgerbil · 5 months ago

I remember my friend and I found a box of Adeptus Titanicus in a used knick knack store for $15. 16 years and thousands of dollars later, here we are both with around five complete 40k armies each. I have owned and/or played space hulk, epic, necromunda, gorkamorka, talisman, 40k, and fantasy. Without that great "specialist" game I wonder if I would have ever discovered games workshop and given so many dollars and hours to the hobby. What other kids are missing out, and what wallets will games workshop miss out on if they continue to ignore the smaller games? Concentrating on just 3 main games is sad.

I'm glad Fantasy Flight got brought on, the produce great stuff and the new Chaos in the Old World board game looks fun, so that is a good step in the right direction.

AoM · 5 months ago

Remember, Fantasy Flight makes "real" board games. You know, the ones that aren't going to be found in Toys 'R' Us, and which cost $50+. Sure, a new board game will be good for grabbing gamers from other types of gaming, but many of the eyes that will be seeing that game will already be aware of the GW "hobby," whether or not they play any of GW's games themselves.

LAZtheinfamous · 5 months ago

Well, to be honest, I think that Mordheim and Necromunda are getting support, in a back hand way. The original sprues from Mordheim are available as the Empire Militia box, and the Skaven Gutter Runners respectivly. And with the new IG command sprues combined with some other stuff (like a heavy weapons team). So with the availability of the rules online as a free download, it makes it easier to play either of these games...if people go to the point to find them. Our group of gamers tends to play more specialist games. Right now there's a Blood Bowl league going on, and those are easy to convert as well.

eriochrome · 5 months ago

Interesting, I went the other way. I played blood bowl and a little space marine back in the day but after moving several times and losing my DnD gamer group I picked up 40K since it seemed to have more players. We have a few people around here(Ann Arbor MI) interested in Epic but not enough to really get anything going.

Havik110 · 5 months ago

Confirmation from GW? Not gonna happen. You have people that would like confirmation that the DE are being worked on and will be released before 2012 when the world ends. Thats timing is really gonna limit the # of people who can really master them :)

Sathos · 5 months ago

we have had confirmation that the DE are being worked on...from Jervis himself lol
no hints as to release though but some of the models are already finished.

Fulminata · 5 months ago

Here's the problem: GW has figured out that they get the most bang for their buck off of a customer during the first six months that a customer plays their games. During that time they have to buy all the startup hobby stuff in addition to miniatures to build an army. After that time they often drift away from the hobby, find alternative sources to purchase stuff, or generally just stop buying as much.

So, 90% of GW's focus is on those customers that are in their first six months. They are going to do the bare minimum they can to keep those of us who have been around for longer than that, and even that effort is mainly because we often bring in new gamers.

Specialist Games as it currently exists is part of that bare minimum, and it's unlikely to get much better.

clkeagle · 5 months ago

Right now, games like Epic and Warmaster can't be making them very much money. I base this on their ultra-limited availability, the inexpensiveness of their second-hand sales (with the obvious exceptions like Tyranids), so I know they can't fathom the idea of sculpting new miniatures for them. It's sad, but I get it. But if their total revenue is so low, why not simply ask for a huge license fee and allow outsiders like DRM to produce and sell Epic-scale minis? GW would still get a little money from rulebook sales, and they could take all the money they're currently using to support the mini lines to update the rules and release supplements. Constant and predictable income from the licenses (I imagine Dawn of War has to be making them a few bucks!), and a tremendous reduction in overhead/storage/manufacture of splash-release lines.

Games that don't require many additional purchases, such as Blood Bowl or Five Armies, could be moved to Fantasy Flight, just as we originally thought would happen with Space Hulk.

Inquisitor was a neat idea, but I think it failed in execution. Now that 28mm urban terrain has come so far, I think they should just redo it in 28mm, and advertise it heavily in RPG/MMO sites and magazines. Inquisitor, and similarly Necromunda and Mordheim, have a small scale and narrative style that make them an ideal springboard to get RPGers over to GW. Once someone builds and plays a few "skirmish" or "adventure" games at 28mm, they may be interested in moving to 40k/Fantasy. They'd already have some terrain!

Vampire Harlequin · 5 months ago

As I understand it, if you want some involving role play, Dark Heresy is considered the cream of the crop. That's one case where I could imagine a bunch of gamers saying 'screw game X (In this case Inquisitor), I'm gonna play Game Y (Dark Heresy) instead'.

I get the whole 'give 'em to Fantasy Flight'. They did a great job with DH, and if G.W. just doesn't wanna support their beloved SG's, give 'em to a company that will.

Andrew · 5 months ago

Contrary to popular belief GW is a pretty good company, sure they jack up thier prices and steal your gas money and replace it with flashy packaging, but its not like you didn't get a fair warning from other players.

So i remember this one time I'm hanging with old GW, watching some guys playing some good old epic scale and warmaster. In comes old GW and he takes warmaster away and turns epic scale into a big steaming pile of turd.

As he walks away the guys are crying about how will they play big games. In walks GW hes got a big box on his shoulder that says 40k Apocalypse on it.

"OHHH shiney neww" I hear these guys say "we must have it".

GW turns and winks at me, i know whats comming next. He jams apocolypse down their throat and steals thier wallets. As he walks buy he says "just wait till planet strike comes out, I'll get them to pay $50 to replace their Styrofoam buildings with new flashy plastic ones"

I give him a high five...he deserves it, shatters my credit rating and takes my house.

Nice guy that GW

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

Except that Apocalypse is not even a close substitute for epic. It still uses the problematic 40k rules and you may get 2 maybe 4 superheavy vehicles on the board and it takes all freakin day to play. A single turn in epic would account for 3 or 4 HOURS of playing APOC. My group plays a lot of apoc, about once a month. But we still find it small beans compared to a modest game of Epic.

Now if they made a game that ran like Epic and used 40k scale models, well that might be a different story.

Andrew · 5 months ago

Well, besides titans how many super heavies do you take in an average epic game. I never used them really, but i used to field whole companies of landraiders. Ive seen some apocalypse games where there were leman russ companies.

TheRealChris · 4 months ago

Chaos - 5, Imperials - 4, marines - 6, Eldar - 3, Orks - 1-3.

Course thats just on average. Marines are probably the most due tot hwe warhounds, thunderhawks and landing craft.

Solotaire (UK) · 5 months ago

I did hear rumour at one of the UK tournaments that the Specialist games were going to be looked at Next year, but could be remembering wrong

faultie · 5 months ago

Maybe they'll do it at this year's Grand Tourna...oh.

Tony · 5 months ago

AHAHAHAHAHA

I actually did that

Inquisitor · 5 months ago

Not to forget about those other systems which got not the deserved attention. It isn't only SG or (before Fantasy Flight Games) the role playing games. There have been excellent trading card games: WarCry, Horus Heresy and Dark Millennium.

Those game were interesing link between different gaming groups as well a nice amusement beside the usual table tops.

Really a pitty.

shakespear · 5 months ago

In my experience it doesnt matter how old the player is, they continue to play 40k. Why?

1. Money: the average player has dumped thousands into the game since they started. Its hard to walk away from that investment.

2. Prestige: after being the guy who teaches and knows all the rules it can be frustrating becoming the student and having to lean a new system.

So instead they argue and complain.

I really wish some of the hardcore tournament players I have met in my travels would move on to a game that is actualy designed for tournament play.

I have played other systems and I liken the experience to being blind and then being able to see.

But I still play 40k because its only game I can find and I do enjoy the social aspect of gaming more than anything.

Robbo · 5 months ago

In defence of GW,
We know it is getting more and more expensive to create models and molds (the price of lead tripling over the last 3years).
Limiting the amount of specialist games would make sense.
IM NOT SAYING KILL THEM ALL - Im saying remove some so the remaining can grow.
For example - A gardener has a small patch with too many plants growing in it. He has to pull up some, or else none of them will have room to grow. They will take up each others root space and block each others light.
By pruning and removing, he has 3 wonderful plants instead of 8 poor and deformed plants.

By pruning the amount of specialist games, the remaining can be more integrated and take a much higher profile.

(just dont ask me which SG should be removed!)

Sathos · 5 months ago

then they should do a proper worldwide survey to find out which ones are the most popular and convert them over to plastics... yes plastics have gone up but still cheaper than whitemetal.

sup · 5 months ago

sorry dudes, but with the economy the way it is now, no one is going to be able to afford a new epic army, i doubt people nowadays are going to be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars to get into a 4th/5th GW game

GuyLeDouche · 5 months ago

If Epic and BFG were supported in my area I would gladly spend a couple hundred dollars to get a 4th/5th GW game. So that would be one more than no one.

AoM · 5 months ago

Have you seen all the people buying new IG armies? That can't possibly be cheaper than an Epic army.

TheDude · 5 months ago

An Epic army should cost about one third the cost of an army for one of the Core games.

faultie · 5 months ago

I got my small BFG fleet for about 50 bucks. Not bad, says I.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

100 bucks buys a decent EPIC army even from GW. And once you get started you know you will buy more.

Skragger · 5 months ago

I love the specialist games, because the 40K and Fantasy universes are so vast it allows us to delve into a specific part of that universe (i.e Bloodbowl) or fills in a lot of the gaps that 40K leaves (i.e. BFG) I say keep em coming!

Another factor however, is price. I own copies of Bloodbowl and BFG, and have played a vast array of other Specialist Games. Some of my gaming friends are interested. Others aren't simply for the fact that the bulk of their warhammer income goes into building and maintaining their 40K armies. Having to mail order (especially here in Canada) a team for bloodbowl, or the individual ships for BFG becomes a very expensive prospect, and has turned a lot of people I know off of them. Shame really, as they're all great games.

Yes, some models can be subbed in for others, like using WHFB models for Boodbowl, or Ork Boyz for GorkaMorka, but others like BFG you just cant sub in for properly.

Anon · 5 months ago

Actually we've just had a revival of Mordheim over at our local GW store. One of the guys is starting a Mordheim Campaign and we have over a dozen players signed up including usual hardcore 40k'ers. It was an easy sell when you tell them all you need is a dozen models and some of the amusing randomness that can happen during a game (Who doesn't like The Thing in the Woods?). Fun quote from an unnamed source at our store: "This Mordheim stuff is not good... we should be focusing on Planetstrike." I think that sums up GW's thoughts right there. It is unfortunate because games like Mordheim and Necromunda are so easily fit back into 40k or Fantasy, and with a very minimal amount of effort, they could be updated and maintained to fit in with the current game settings. Low cost, potential for high benefit... I fail to see the issue... but thats just me.

Tony · 5 months ago

randomness is awesomeness

one of our players had his wood elf leader die after the first game from trying to jump down a 6 inch tall building. Now, I don't want to point fingers, but the only other elf in the tower with him ended up becoming the new leader for the warband.

...I just sayin'

Matt · 5 months ago

I agree with you! Some local gamers and I have decided to start up BFG fleets to match our "main" armies for apoc or story driven games and such. I ordered a battle barge, 3 strike cruisers, 12 gladiuses, and FW Thunderhawks. I recieved an email saying they were out of strike cruisers... Are they not supporting BFG anymore? Are they planning on making more? I don't know about epic but I do enjoy the whole universe of 40k and all other games set in the same universe I've played I've enjoyed. I hope they aren't going to slowly phase them out completely.

Bomster · 5 months ago

When did you order? I got my 2 strike cruisers from GWUK mail order less than 4 weeks ago (ordered on May, 20).

Sathos · 5 months ago

just looking at 40k they are missing something they used to do themselves that they have now expanded without meaning to (if they keep support up and improve it) Games day events at one time used to be BFG>Epic>40k (they used to skip inquisitor sadly.)

But think how you could expand that now across a large hall...
BFG: fight for control of space-held reinforcements
Aeronautica Imperialis: Dominate the skies
Epic: Fight the major battles for control of the planet/system
40k: play out important smaller engagements for important targets (artefacts?)
Necromunda: The population fight back against invaders
Inquisitor: The Inquisition go straight for the leader of the invading forces.

You could also throw spacehulk in there for both boarding actions and clearing a large enemy held complex on the ground (like in one of the IA books)
But without the support it wont happen, as far as I am aware currently only Aeronautica and 40k are supported properly and Aeronautica only because its new which is a sorry state of affairs.

also I havent skipped apocalypse/planetstrike as to me they are still essentially 40k just geared towards different scale/objectives.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

Funny you should mention this. This is exactly how my club runs our "gamesday events" BFG>EPIC>40K plus some specehulk or necromunda that complete a whole invasion story in one day and everybody really loves it.

Sathos · 5 months ago

Indeed, GW used to do it all the time (at least here in the UK) at just about every event from conflict to gamesday and even just on their Warhammer World open days.

Anonymous · 5 months ago

Boy, a revival of some of the specialist games would be great.

Personally I'd love to see some Inquisitor support. Dark Heresy is a very different game, it's more abstracted because it's a straight rpg, and the scale is different. It's not going to happen, though. At best all I can do is be glad for what it brought - a wonderful tome of information on the workings of the Inquisition. The Inquisitor rulebook is more helpful in familiarizing people with the organization than all the Dark Heresy books put together.

I think a prime candidate for revival when it comes to the specialist games would be Gorkamorka. Orks have a lot going for them now, lots of new players came aboard for the new codex. The model line is for the most part already there and now better than ever, too.

LEGION3000 · 5 months ago

I agree, the Inquisitor rulebook is fantastic for background information and fluff. Unfortunately Inquisitor as a game is less to be desired.

styx · 5 months ago

Specialist Games was amazing back when they had their own website, support, articles, they kept the fans involved with contests and submissions. Once they closed that department it was just a total loss and one of the worst buisness mistakes GW could make.

In the past SG's was able to help push the SG sales, I can say they have no doubt fallen to the wayside and there is little movement in that area.

From a buisness point of view they are pushing their resources to the $, with the economy in the crapper they are trying to milk the money and they are willing to take a loss to keep the big money in their pockets. A sad thing when money and greed ruins a good thing....

I've always loved SG, Mordheim, Gorkamoraka, Necromunda and BFG was great games, enjoyable, required little to get started and to me is a better way for GW to bring people into the hobby than just trying to land them directly in.

joedog · 5 months ago

I think the real problem with Specialist Games was the poorly thought out desire to include EVERY race in every game.
Tyranids in Epic screwed up the game - and why put in Necrons at all?

Battlefleet Gothic seemed to be doing very well when it focused on Imperium, Chaos, Orks (although they were kind of loopy), and Eldar, but many people had different interpretations of what Tyranid or Necron fleets would look like (or if they'd even have fleets, as such), and the Tau fleet was just plain butt ugly.

In both cases, the special rules for the various races took a toll on the playability of the basic rules, and it seemed like the more races they released, the less interest there was in the game (sales and people playing).

Space Hulk is probably the best introduction to miniatures gaming possible, and it should never have gone out of print. That said, it was best with just the basic rules (none of the psychic powers, etc. from Genestealer and Deathwing), but with extra floor tiles for custom mission set-ups. For more advanced players, the "rules" (more like suggestions that formed a basis for house rules) for including different 40k models in a game using the Space Hulk tiles were pretty fun, but can you imagine how screwed up Space Hulk would be if GW felt that they had to include every race in the re-release, just to keep from having someone feel left out?

UltramarineFan · 5 months ago

Isn't it easier for GW to just rake in more people to replace those who leave and who might leave whatever GW workshop does?

RedSarge · 4 months ago

holy cow, you still play epic final lineration!? I thought I was the only one.. lol.. watch out for those kannon speeda's!

Tad · 4 months ago

We just started a Necromunda League at our LGS (http://www.phoenixgamesatl.com) this past month that has drawn a great crowd of both veteran and newbie players alike.

It reminded me how much better this game used to be in 2ed.

Gothmog · 4 months ago

This has been plauging the SG community since about the time LOTR came out. And I honestly think there are more SG players than LOTR players. Yet GW sticks with LOTR.

I think two major part of the strategy to make them better performing games finacial viable should be as follows:
1- Have at least one SG article in each White Dwarf. People don't buy what isn't advertised.
2- Tie in to their respective games. There used to be some BFG book explainging how to connect 40k and BFG. Some campaign system book officially endorsed and released by GW linking SG games with Core games would really help the sales of both.You wouldn't have to play it, but having it as an option would be nice.

Mike · 4 months ago

I see alot of comments about LOTR and why does GW stick with it. I thought the exact same thing because from what I had seen it doesn't sell well and additionally from what I was told gameplay wasn't that great. So why does GW stick with it? I was pretty friendly with the manager of my local GW store before it closed down and from what he told me, allegedly, GW signed into an agreement with New Line Conema whereby they are required to produce a certain amount of product to fulfill their contract. So if this is correct, the answer to the question on everyone's mind is they stick with it because they have to. Again I am not 100% on this but given GWs tendency to ruthlessly cut games which aren't selling up to their expectations, it seems to make sense. How GW got sucked into such a bad agreement in the first place is a matter of other speculation.

A sto SG, there are some I'd like to try, but in my area its hard enough to find 40k players let alone some of the other games. I almost got into BFG at one point but honestly I just didn't like the models. I just think the ship designs are unappealing.

Myu · 4 months ago

I hope they don't stop supporting SG. How can I start Epic if there's no models? I also won't be able to start my Necron and Tau fleets for BFG (already got a sizable Imperial Fleet).

Matt Quick · 4 months ago

It would be nice if they updated the miniatures. The goofy looking minis are what kills it for me. Maybe if they tried a little closer to FoW.

Onyx · 4 months ago

Well I seem to at odds with most of the people here in that I only play LotR and Epic.

I nearly 40 and I played Blood Bowl 1st ed, WFB 2nd ed, Rogue Trader, Chainsaw Warrior, Battle Cars, Doctor Who board game, White Dwarf's back to issue 29, heck I've still got my Laser Burn paperback rules (Bryan Ansell 15mm game from 1980).

I had a 15 year break from gaming and it was only the LotR SBG that got me back into it. I play LotR because I love Middle-Earth. I play Epic Armageddon now because it is the best game I've ever played.

I have zero intersest in WFB and 40K and I'd love to see more support for SG in general and Epic in particular. The idea of a page or 2 in WD every now and then would be enough to get me to buy the magazine again (I only buy the issues with LotR info) and could only boost Epic sales (that would actually look like GW support their own products! ).

Anyway, thatnks for the continued Epic goodness GR00V3R. It is a great game and deserves to be supported.

Onyx.

Tol · 4 months ago

In some interview there was talk of the specialist games (and i heard
Space Hulk will be the the first to evamp, maybe followed be Epic).

My favorites are Inquisitor, Necromunda & Mortheim; gives
the whole thing more colour and a decent rpg-aspect...

I also used to play Gothic, Epic & Warmaster, but it´s hard to
get someone new into it, and there are not much players around.

It would be nice to get the hands on the Gorka-Morka
range for my Orks, but the game itself was´nt it for me.

And... who knows... maybe they even gonna respawn Man´o´War?

Angelic_Despot · 4 months ago

Great article, as usual...

Here are my thoughts on several topics:

The Lord of the Rings game(s):
GW had to do this, and support it. And I've very glad they did. Without Tolkein, fantasy gaming would be a lot poorer and less developed. It's the father of WFB and 40K. Besides the influx of cash that allowed them to develop big plastic moulds etc, for monopolistic reasons they couldn't let anyone else get the license to produce a game with the one setting that could compete with 40K and WFB.
But leave aside the money-arguements. It's a really great game, and the miniatures are beautiful. It had to be a good thing for them to do. Also, the GW staff are human: how could they not love the setting so much that they couldn't help but make miniatures and design games? And free from the normal restrictions of their own brands (the 'heroic' scaling and the old-fashioned rules and stat-lines)?
I get why some people prefer 40K. I don't get why some people hate this great game.

The business of Specialist Games:
They make some very weird decisions. Just because you make a lot of money selling one or two big things is no reason to avoid making money out of some additional small things if your outlay is small. Profit is profit. The designers and writers would make stuff for the specialist games almost for free. Advertising on their own website is virtually free. Community volunteers would do a lot of the support work for these games. So why not do it?
The specialist games bring people into the hobby, and they keep them there. In the long run people drift away but they also come back. Specialist games are a good way of keeping people around, ready to spend heavily again when their circumstances change.

I can't fault the argument that you want high-spending kids coming into stores, but they don't high-spend for very long. People like me keep their business sustainable in the long run. I've spend a lot more money on the hobby over the years than most of the kids have in the year or two they were in it before 'growing out of it'.
But the main thing is; it's possible to do both. You can rake in the cash from the kids playing 40K and use the specialist games to keep older players in the hobby for years and years.

Also; while some of the specialist games don't require much money - 16 players for a Blood bowl team - others, like Warmaster or Epic, can require armies as big as you want.

Finally; when they do go in for the specialist games, they seem to get it wrong far too often. The business side of things. I think Warmaster is the best example of this.
A great looking game, and great models. I still think maybe they should have made it 6mm and got the whole Epic crowd into it, but 10mm has a lot going for it too. But to release the game with just 2 armies? And with one of those an obscure army that no-one played in WFB (at the time)? And then not to support it with other popular armies?

If you had a group of 5 WFB players, that's a potential 5 Warmaster players. But if you only release High elves at the beginning and promise to make only a handful more, so that after 6 months 2 or 3 of the group still won't have an army produced in the scale, what is the incentive for them to get into it? They should have released the game with Empire and Orcs, and brought out another 10 armies in the first year, with the most popular ones being brought out very quickly (maybe 2 a month for a while). That would have kicked life into the game from the beginning and it would have taken off.

That was a bit rambling... Oops.

Completely anonymous · 4 months ago

I figured there were two main customer ty that GW earns frompes.

Transient youths (kids)

Affluent hardcore players

The second type is likely the thinking behind apocalypse and planetstrike. I have no trouble with people who spend thousands on GW stuff, it just isn't for me. Even if I could afford it.

In both cases you're probably looking at WHFB/WH40K rather than SG sales making up their biggest profits. As to why they don't take the small profits, well companies get weird when they're big enough.

TheRealChris · 4 months ago

Expereicne in America with pushing BFG did show a rise in sales, but a drop in 40k sales.
Essentially GW wants to make the maximum return for each pound invested. SG is in effect competition of some sort. Any lost sales do not in their opinion amont to a loss when compared to development/store space needed and the expected drop in core sales.
In an ideal world they would have a subsidary like forge world doing the sg stuff like fantasy has done with talisman. No advertising, no support, quietly forgotten and it can live or die on word of mouth (and the large back catalogue of models - really simple re-releases would keep any company going for years before they had to worry about new stuff).