Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

lucidum — Sat, 02 Jan 2010 19:55:49 -0000

I believe that a major revival is needed for the specialist games range. Blood Bowl needs to be re-worked, and be given new models in plastic so as to cross-promote with the recent Blood Bowl videogame. Battlefleet Gothic should be continued for sure, with a new boxed set and rulebook (forget the PDF files for all games, they need a complete reworking and make the rulebooks worth buying). BFG and Blood Bowl are the only spec. games to recieve new models in the last 3-5 years or so (the new Star Player models for BB and the new Ad. Mech. Ships for BFG). Necromunda should probably be gone, and combined with the Inquisitor Game System. Inquisitor has plentiful options for future development, and needs plastic models, representative models for EVERY race in 40K (a glaring issue in early reviews of inquisitor), as well as reworked rules and a way to make it competitive, as well as a release of all the unreleased models and bitz packs (there were three or four other models that used to be available but are no longer in the online store, as well as bitz packs for almost every model that are for reasons unknown unavailable now). I think =][= has the potential to incorporate Necromunda as well, given the same predilection for smaller-scale combat, character experience, etc. Epic needs to be officially renamed Epic 40,000 to facilitate the inclusion of all races in 40k (this seems to be a common issue with spec. games). Mordheim is still fairly well off rules and models-wise, I'm not sure if it needs updating. The battle of five armies was pretty pointless to begin with, so I'm not positive it should be continued at all. Perhaps support for it will grow once the Hobbit movie comes out.

Overall, I think specialist games division for GW should be re-structured and brought back, too further their product support in general, and probably increase their revenue stream.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

TheRealChris — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:58:07 -0000

Expereicne in America with pushing BFG did show a rise in sales, but a drop in 40k sales.
Essentially GW wants to make the maximum return for each pound invested. SG is in effect competition of some sort. Any lost sales do not in their opinion amont to a loss when compared to development/store space needed and the expected drop in core sales.
In an ideal world they would have a subsidary like forge world doing the sg stuff like fantasy has done with talisman. No advertising, no support, quietly forgotten and it can live or die on word of mouth (and the large back catalogue of models - really simple re-releases would keep any company going for years before they had to worry about new stuff).

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

TheRealChris — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:42:06 -0000

Chaos - 5, Imperials - 4, marines - 6, Eldar - 3, Orks - 1-3.

Course thats just on average. Marines are probably the most due tot hwe warhounds, thunderhawks and landing craft.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Completely anonymous — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:54:41 -0000

I figured there were two main customer ty that GW earns frompes.

Transient youths (kids)

Affluent hardcore players

The second type is likely the thinking behind apocalypse and planetstrike. I have no trouble with people who spend thousands on GW stuff, it just isn't for me. Even if I could afford it.

In both cases you're probably looking at WHFB/WH40K rather than SG sales making up their biggest profits. As to why they don't take the small profits, well companies get weird when they're big enough.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Angelic Despot — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:32:30 -0000

Great article, as usual...

Here are my thoughts on several topics:

The Lord of the Rings game(s):
GW had to do this, and support it. And I've very glad they did. Without Tolkein, fantasy gaming would be a lot poorer and less developed. It's the father of WFB and 40K. Besides the influx of cash that allowed them to develop big plastic moulds etc, for monopolistic reasons they couldn't let anyone else get the license to produce a game with the one setting that could compete with 40K and WFB.
But leave aside the money-arguements. It's a really great game, and the miniatures are beautiful. It had to be a good thing for them to do. Also, the GW staff are human: how could they not love the setting so much that they couldn't help but make miniatures and design games? And free from the normal restrictions of their own brands (the 'heroic' scaling and the old-fashioned rules and stat-lines)?
I get why some people prefer 40K. I don't get why some people hate this great game.

The business of Specialist Games:
They make some very weird decisions. Just because you make a lot of money selling one or two big things is no reason to avoid making money out of some additional small things if your outlay is small. Profit is profit. The designers and writers would make stuff for the specialist games almost for free. Advertising on their own website is virtually free. Community volunteers would do a lot of the support work for these games. So why not do it?
The specialist games bring people into the hobby, and they keep them there. In the long run people drift away but they also come back. Specialist games are a good way of keeping people around, ready to spend heavily again when their circumstances change.

I can't fault the argument that you want high-spending kids coming into stores, but they don't high-spend for very long. People like me keep their business sustainable in the long run. I've spend a lot more money on the hobby over the years than most of the kids have in the year or two they were in it before 'growing out of it'.
But the main thing is; it's possible to do both. You can rake in the cash from the kids playing 40K and use the specialist games to keep older players in the hobby for years and years.

Also; while some of the specialist games don't require much money - 16 players for a Blood bowl team - others, like Warmaster or Epic, can require armies as big as you want.

Finally; when they do go in for the specialist games, they seem to get it wrong far too often. The business side of things. I think Warmaster is the best example of this.
A great looking game, and great models. I still think maybe they should have made it 6mm and got the whole Epic crowd into it, but 10mm has a lot going for it too. But to release the game with just 2 armies? And with one of those an obscure army that no-one played in WFB (at the time)? And then not to support it with other popular armies?

If you had a group of 5 WFB players, that's a potential 5 Warmaster players. But if you only release High elves at the beginning and promise to make only a handful more, so that after 6 months 2 or 3 of the group still won't have an army produced in the scale, what is the incentive for them to get into it? They should have released the game with Empire and Orcs, and brought out another 10 armies in the first year, with the most popular ones being brought out very quickly (maybe 2 a month for a while). That would have kicked life into the game from the beginning and it would have taken off.

That was a bit rambling... Oops.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Tol — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:13:14 -0000

In some interview there was talk of the specialist games (and i heard
Space Hulk will be the the first to evamp, maybe followed be Epic).

My favorites are Inquisitor, Necromunda & Mortheim; gives
the whole thing more colour and a decent rpg-aspect...

I also used to play Gothic, Epic & Warmaster, but it´s hard to
get someone new into it, and there are not much players around.

It would be nice to get the hands on the Gorka-Morka
range for my Orks, but the game itself was´nt it for me.

And... who knows... maybe they even gonna respawn Man´o´War?

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Onyx — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 06:35:57 -0000

Well I seem to at odds with most of the people here in that I only play LotR and Epic.

I nearly 40 and I played Blood Bowl 1st ed, WFB 2nd ed, Rogue Trader, Chainsaw Warrior, Battle Cars, Doctor Who board game, White Dwarf's back to issue 29, heck I've still got my Laser Burn paperback rules (Bryan Ansell 15mm game from 1980).

I had a 15 year break from gaming and it was only the LotR SBG that got me back into it. I play LotR because I love Middle-Earth. I play Epic Armageddon now because it is the best game I've ever played.

I have zero intersest in WFB and 40K and I'd love to see more support for SG in general and Epic in particular. The idea of a page or 2 in WD every now and then would be enough to get me to buy the magazine again (I only buy the issues with LotR info) and could only boost Epic sales (that would actually look like GW support their own products! ).

Anyway, thatnks for the continued Epic goodness GR00V3R. It is a great game and deserves to be supported.

Onyx.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:53:29 -0000

thank you, at the back of the appocalypse reload book their is a basic example that if modified could be used as a method for interlinked games based on the outcomes of one affecting the play type of the other ie: a planet strike mission using the points system given in the gothic book which talks about transport ships holding 500pts worth of individuals in them, and depending on the number of transports that make planet fall the attacker playing 40k or epic has a unique points value were the defender has a set value, making for a game which could change the course of a campaign via sweeping planet fall, or brutal failure of the agressor, that was my idea, on a separate note one could run a space hulk or inquisitor game inside a gothic ship and the outcome of that could affect the capabilities of the ship in a following battle, or even more simple just having GW produce a book that has a heavily linked back story, like a novel about a combined arms operation

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Matt Quick — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:49:41 -0000

It would be nice if they updated the miniatures. The goofy looking minis are what kills it for me. Maybe if they tried a little closer to FoW.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Myu — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:05:47 -0000

I did a unit on games design and I remember this wonderful quote from it: "If you target everyone, you will hit no-one".

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Myu — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:03:02 -0000

I hope they don't stop supporting SG. How can I start Epic if there's no models? I also won't be able to start my Necron and Tau fleets for BFG (already got a sizable Imperial Fleet).

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Andrew — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:52:51 -0000

That worked really well for the warzone franchise. That collectible hex, prepainted game lasted what 2 months. CRAP CRAP CRAP. That game and that terrible movie have put the nail in the coffin of warzone, i highly doubt we will ever see it again.

Lesson go to mainstream and you will lose your target audience.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:15:17 -0000

Necromunda needs to be adapted and called "40K: Killteam".

Every race gets a set of "gang" types, and we don't have to use those ugly, UGLY models any more!

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:13:08 -0000

Imagine Epic done by Fantasy Flight: their Doom Boardgame had, like, 140 really high-quality miniatures for £40! It'd be even better than the old Space Marine boxed set!

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Mike — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 15:21:29 -0000

I see alot of comments about LOTR and why does GW stick with it. I thought the exact same thing because from what I had seen it doesn't sell well and additionally from what I was told gameplay wasn't that great. So why does GW stick with it? I was pretty friendly with the manager of my local GW store before it closed down and from what he told me, allegedly, GW signed into an agreement with New Line Conema whereby they are required to produce a certain amount of product to fulfill their contract. So if this is correct, the answer to the question on everyone's mind is they stick with it because they have to. Again I am not 100% on this but given GWs tendency to ruthlessly cut games which aren't selling up to their expectations, it seems to make sense. How GW got sucked into such a bad agreement in the first place is a matter of other speculation.

A sto SG, there are some I'd like to try, but in my area its hard enough to find 40k players let alone some of the other games. I almost got into BFG at one point but honestly I just didn't like the models. I just think the ship designs are unappealing.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Gothmog — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:45:39 -0000

This has been plauging the SG community since about the time LOTR came out. And I honestly think there are more SG players than LOTR players. Yet GW sticks with LOTR.

I think two major part of the strategy to make them better performing games finacial viable should be as follows:
1- Have at least one SG article in each White Dwarf. People don't buy what isn't advertised.
2- Tie in to their respective games. There used to be some BFG book explainging how to connect 40k and BFG. Some campaign system book officially endorsed and released by GW linking SG games with Core games would really help the sales of both.You wouldn't have to play it, but having it as an option would be nice.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:37:30 -0000

What? Heroclix may well be going down now - the market is, as ever, cyclical. Blood Bowl would be a new thing that hadn't been done before. The game systems is tried and true, it has a loyal hard core of followers, and it works.

How would releasing cheap and accessible models be a bad one?

Don't look at the sales after the fad's run it's course; look at them at the start and during...

Bottom line - I bet they're not making as much as heroclix et al as it stands, yes?

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:23:52 -0000

Jumping on that wagon right after the horses pulling it broke free sure sounds like a great idea, alright...

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Tad — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:17:52 -0000

We just started a Necromunda League at our LGS (http://www.phoenixgamesatl.com) this past month that has drawn a great crowd of both veteran and newbie players alike.

It reminded me how much better this game used to be in 2ed.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

RedSarge — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:05:43 -0000

holy cow, you still play epic final lineration!? I thought I was the only one.. lol.. watch out for those kannon speeda's!

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Anonymous — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:48:10 -0000

Simple answer: look at Heroclix.

Take Blood Bowl.
Remove the excessive gore, add even more comedy to make it family friendly.
Release the game with cheap-and-cheerful, pre-painted models (like Heroclix's), and aggressively market it to the mainstream kiddie market.
Turn it into one of these new "Can't see what models you're buying" kind of deals.
Apply for licenses from other companies - have Blood Bowl teams of Predators, Aliens, even Dragonball Z! (Because frankly, GW's vertically integrated business model creates as many problems as it solves - Space Marines might sell well, but I bet Marvel heroes sell more).
Critically, you then sell new game through mainstream outlets, keeping 40K "exclusive" to GW shops. I've seen Heroclix for sale in comic shops, computer game shops, Teso, Argos... Crappy models, but you can't argue with their sales.

All these mainstream releases = Sudden interest in the company, spike in profits.

GW is a bit like Vince MacMahon of the WWE: embarassed by their product. VKM doesn't want to admit he's producing a wrestling show, so he calls it "sports entertainment". He's embarassed to call his employees wrestlers, so he calls them "superstars".

All to avoid mainstream embarassment, when the bottom line is, the mainstream generally hates wrestling!

"GW doesn't make toys: it makes miniatures! They're totally different!"

Well, yes... but also no. The hobby is the key difference... but how about the executives saying, "Well, we'll make Blood Bowl's GW's kid's game, 40K is the late teens game, and Epic is the game the adults play?"

None of it true of course... just specifically targetted marketing. All of which gets them revenue.

If you deliberately reduce the quality of the "kid's game" models (like the terrible Heroclix sculpts), then you achieve several business goals. Firstly, you increase market visibility. Secondly, you increase market saturation. Thirdly, you deal with the problem of those people who just won't enter a GW store (because who's got the bigger market reach: GW or Tesco's / Wal-Mart?). Fourthly, you appeal to those people who are put off by the insane level of dedication "the hobby" requires - not everyone wants to have to assemble and paint their models. And finally, you juxtapose with your own model lines: those 40K/Fantasy sculpts just look amazing by comparison, thus encouraging those kids attracted by the Blood Bowl to come to the other games later on.

Makes sense to me.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Andrew — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:42:24 -0000

Well, besides titans how many super heavies do you take in an average epic game. I never used them really, but i used to field whole companies of landraiders. Ive seen some apocalypse games where there were leman russ companies.

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

UltramarineFan — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:40:36 -0000

Isn't it easier for GW to just rake in more people to replace those who leave and who might leave whatever GW workshop does?

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

joedog — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:31:53 -0000

I think the real problem with Specialist Games was the poorly thought out desire to include EVERY race in every game.
Tyranids in Epic screwed up the game - and why put in Necrons at all?

Battlefleet Gothic seemed to be doing very well when it focused on Imperium, Chaos, Orks (although they were kind of loopy), and Eldar, but many people had different interpretations of what Tyranid or Necron fleets would look like (or if they'd even have fleets, as such), and the Tau fleet was just plain butt ugly.

In both cases, the special rules for the various races took a toll on the playability of the basic rules, and it seemed like the more races they released, the less interest there was in the game (sales and people playing).

Space Hulk is probably the best introduction to miniatures gaming possible, and it should never have gone out of print. That said, it was best with just the basic rules (none of the psychic powers, etc. from Genestealer and Deathwing), but with extra floor tiles for custom mission set-ups. For more advanced players, the "rules" (more like suggestions that formed a basis for house rules) for including different 40k models in a game using the Space Hulk tiles were pretty fun, but can you imagine how screwed up Space Hulk would be if GW felt that they had to include every race in the re-release, just to keep from having someone feel left out?

Re: EDITORIAL: What to Do With Specialist Games?

Sathos — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:18:57 -0000

Indeed, GW used to do it all the time (at least here in the UK) at just about every event from conflict to gamesday and even just on their Warhammer World open days.