This may be something I may be interested in.... I hope it doesn't flop like the 40k ccg.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Aye, I bought a pack of the 40K CCG just to see what the artwork was like (and since it was on sale for 25¢, it was worth a glance) and it looked like a terrible game.
The problem I see with Fantasy Flight is that they're expanding the Games Workshop license too large, too fast.
The RPG seems great. I haven't gotten into it because the books are friggin' ridiculously expensive*. They're asking for ForgeWorld prices. And even ForgeWorld is crazy for asking for so much for their Imperial Armor books.
But the CCGs and board games... they don't seem very promising, more like a bad venture, since it's all been done before and failed.
However, they may have better luck this time around. Thankfully whatever happens to them and their products doesn't directly damage GW.
*I just bought the core rule book for the Rifts RPG system which is $35.95, whereas Dark Heresy's core rule book is $59.95!
Myu
· 4 months ago
This board game sounds interesting at the art looks good, I might give it a go.
One thing though:
"the core rule book for the Rifts RPG system which is $35.95"
This is true, but Rifts is super-cheap compared to everyone.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Super-cheap in prices, but a great system.
I also bought the D&D Player's Handbook (v3.5) for only $29.95.
So... I have no idea how they can justify $60 for a core book.
Big-D
· 4 months ago
The GW licensed RPGs have always been expensive. I think they are worth it though. I remember ordering the Dwarf supplement from a UK supplier for almost $100 in the previous edition just because it was that cool.
Maine
· 4 months ago
I'd recommend then getting Savage Worlds (a $10 rulebook) and using a fan conversion (there are two different ones at savageheroes.com). My D&D4e GM switched to a Crimson Skies game using a fan conversion and SW (after I got him hooked by running Deadlands Reloaded).
One of the two fan conversions is more general and not so focused on just being an inquisitors minions...
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
The WHFRP/Dark Heresy D100 system is a bit old school, but is still a good system. I like Savage Worlds too, but leaving aside the price, I don't think it's an inherently better system.
FFG RPG prices are a bit on the high side per book, but they aren't outrageous. People are comparing it to D&D, but there are three core books for D&D at a total of around $90, compared to that $60 is a bargain.
Eric E
· 4 months ago
I only need a PHB to play DND. I need the 60$ book to play Dark Heresy. GM only needs 1 of the 3 as well. Other two only give more options. its not a comparable price.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Exactly. All you need is one core book, the others are basically supplements or expansions.
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
I call BS on this. Someone needs the other books, or there is no game.
I find it funny that people who spend hundreds on a 40K army balk at $60 for an RPG.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Yeah, someone ELSE needs them. Your theory is irrelevant, really.
It's like saying Warhammer is too expensive to play, which is understandable for some, but because you need at least two armies, your flaw in the math is combining the cost of both armies. You make a ridiculous comparison.
I'm sure Dark Heresy is a good gaming system, but for double the price of D&D or Rifts, I think it's a rather retarded marketing move. Especially since it's so new (and unheard of).
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
By that logic, no one needs the PHB or the DH core rules. Only one person in the group needs either to play the game.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Only one of the three books is required per person, Fulminata.
Some people prefer being dungeon masters, and will gladly only need a DM book. Others prefer to be players and only need the PHB. It's not rocket science...
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
No, only one person in the group needs the rules. I've played plenty of RPGs where only the GM had the rules.
The idea that every one in the group needs a copy of the rules is a fallacy.
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
Also, I've never known a DM who didn't also have a copy of the PHB, in any edition of the game.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Okay, I can see what you're saying with that. It's like saying you only need one copy of the Warhammer/40K main rule book for a game, right?
It's not a matter of how many people you know have X amount of books, expansions, supplements, etc., but what is REQUIRED of play that we're talking about, not what people have opted for.
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The rules needed to play the game, not necessarily what the players choose to buy, which can often be more than what is necessary.
The only difference being that with RPGs I've found it's more common to play with the minimum necessary than in miniatures games (after all, after you've spent a few hundred on miniatures, what's $50 more for a rulebook?)
Mike X
· 4 months ago
Right, and this is why no one needs to buy more than one of the three core books. I'm not specifying which book
In example: If you get a group of 4 people to play D&D. Three of the people each buy themselves a copy of the PHB, and the fourth person buys the DM book. You have a fully functional game, with each person only spending $30~.
If the DM no longer wants to be a dungeon master, he can swap books with another person to become a player.
With Dark Heresy, each person needs to spend $60.
This is where the expensiveness comes into play.
But yes, technically no one needs to even buy anything since it can all be downloaded or shared, but I'm using the way the companies legally allow us to play their games in my examples.
Fulminata
· 4 months ago
Er, no. It's perfectly legal to share a book (downloading is another issue).
I have to emphasize once again, that I've never known a DM to not own the PHB. The PHB has always had the core rules, so without it there's no way you could run a game. Even then, you can only run a game with human opponents, since you don't have a Monster Manual, so again, $90 minimum to run the full game vs. $60 to run Dark Heresy.
That's not even counting that about half the players I've ever known go ahead and get the other books even though they aren't running the game.
I stand by my original statement that while $60 is a bit on the high side, that it's not outrageous given that it's the complete core rules in one volume.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Gyah.. we who fork over copious amounts of cash for plastic cocaine should not complain about pricing of a book, hasn't anyone just bought a codex or anything just to read the fluff?
$60.00 is like what... a squad and a half of marines? comon... suck it up
Allandaros
· 4 months ago
While I really love Savage Worlds, I'd be very hesitant to say that its dice mechanic is "far superior" to WFRP. I don't know about DH, haven't picked it up (yeah, that pricetag *does* sting!) but WFRP 2 handles combats in a very elegant and powerful fashion, and provides a far different feel from SW. Far more Warhammer-appropriate, to my way of thinking - far less pulpy.
Eric E
· 4 months ago
LCG =/= CCG in the slightest.
LCGs are not a proven failure. Since its a fairly new avenue of marketing that only FFG have to date tried. The closest thing to it is Munchkin.
The RPG has been around for eons. Also comparing Rifts (which is black and white, hasn't been updated in over a decade with anything remotely resembling a new/good system) to Dark Heresy (full colour, high quality, gloss) is rather amusing.
Board games... failed? Really? They're one of the top two preeminent board game makers out there. If anyone can make a good game out of this, they can.
At least they do something with the GW IP. GW fails hard at their own.
Chaosgerbil
· 4 months ago
Although I have dumped lots of money into Magic and a handful of other CCGs, I resent that real-world money can give you an unfair advantage. I love the idea of competitive card games that are internally balanced, where you can build decks but you don't have rares that are more powerful and expensive than commons.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
You're misunderstanding what I wrote. 40K board games failed, not board games as a whole. As much as people liked Space Crusade and all that, it's not in production anymore for a reason...
Rifts was updated in late 2005, thank you, with the Ultimate Edition. And it has both B&W pictures and gorgeous glossy artwork. Palladium has put out such quality gaming material that it hasn't really required any constant updates or changes, and they have proven they understand the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" metaphor.
Oh, and Munchkin is pretty fun. I've only played it twice though.
Rich
· 4 months ago
Yeah, thats because the chaps in charge of Workshop at the time were petrified of it being too much of a success and MB games coming in and taking their personal fiefdoms out from under them. Hence cooperation ended...
I know a lot more people who love the GW settings and fluff who only buy the novels or computer games than I know active tabletop gamers. They usually quote price of the minis when asked why they don't play any more. They are usually not averse to throwing £40+ at a new computer game when its released though. These products could very well appeal to them with a one off cost and a heavy dose of artwork and imagery.
You can't really compare FFG's games to the older versions of GW board games though, they make them look like they were made out of cornflake boxes and sticky back plastic... :-D I've got the new Talisman and its current expansions and the production values are great! Boardgames are what FFG do really well & I suspect if anyone is going to make 40k ones work then it will be them.
Mike X
· 4 months ago
That's true. All of GW's old stuff sucked so bad. I know this will offend a few, because some people actually liked the old models, but ugh, dear heaven, the old Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, etc. were friggin' TERRIBLE!
TheRealChris
· 4 months ago
Since when were board games done before and failed? They have been inordinately successful, both in sales and getting people hooked on GW stuff. Space Crusade and Heroquest are a further two examples of other companies doing stuff with the IP and being very successful (until the contract ran out and GW said thanks but thats enough interest generated for us). GW's own subsequent board games were hardly that hot (but at least they made them into free downloads), indeed I think the only really good one they did was the free horus heresy one in white dwarf, but they still sold a few and the mechanics were nothing compared to FFG's.
Chaosgerbil
· 4 months ago
I think Heroquest, Advanced Heroquest, and Warhammer Quest were all good, with Heroquest being more for kids and WQ being the best of the three. I'd love to see something like that return, along with a Space Hulk / Space Crusade / Tyranid Attack type game. Throw in a campaign system and cards for wargear and abilities, oh it would be sweet. Maybe I'll just have to make it myself instead of waiting indefinitely.
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Concurred, the idea of a warhammer CCG almost repulses me, they already have one wallet sucking system, can GW expect its customer-base to shell out for a second one at the same time?
Board games however interest me, as long as they're sufficiently lore-soaked and full of tasty artwork and exciting game-play mechanics
QBall78
· 4 months ago
I doubt that GW targets the same customer group with card games as they do with tabletop games. Probably it's more that there's still a (growing?) market for card games and now they try to get their share of it too.
They tried the same with a 40K-card game of wich I own exactly 1 [one] card. I'm not sure but I suppose it was in the gold-edition box of DoW (if not, I have no idea where I got that thing from...).
ShadRS
· 4 months ago
The thing to remember is that this is a LCG not a CCG. The difference is once you've bought a card set, you have all the possible cards from that expansion/set. And the expansion/sets go for about $10 a piece (or at least thats how the Call of Cthulhu ones are priced). So I wouldn't exactly group it with the money sucking experience that a CCG is.
Kayle
· 4 months ago
The Warhammer 40k main rulebook retails for $57.75...
$50 and $60 Core Rulebooks for RPGs are quite common nowadays. This is largely due to production quality in that the Dark Heresy core rulebook is hardcover with full color pages while the Rifts RPG has color sections but is mostly black and white, though it is also hardcover. Please don't take this as the start of a Dark Heresy is better than Rifts thread, that is not my intent. I just want to provide perspective.
Derfderf
· 4 months ago
I played the original 40K CCG years ago, and it was a really fun game. The artwork improved exponentially with each set, and it's a shame because very few people will every see the great art on those discontinued cards.
The game ultimately failed because it grew far too quickly to manage properly, and because imbalance issues weren't efficiently addressed. The support for the game was great, and the staff members were friendly and active in reaching out to the player base.
Just wanted to share, as I have many fond high school memories playing that game.
Bronn
· 4 months ago
The difference is that Rifts is terrible and Dark Heresy is excellent. Believe me, you get what you pay for.
This is a board game by FFG based on GW's Warhammer Chaos mythology. Details and pictures of the game contents are available at the FFG website. It appears to be a high quality product. I ordered mine! Check out the components at this link: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite...
Mike X
· 4 months ago
BrassScorpion = the new Billy Mays?! :-P
Allandaros
· 4 months ago
But wait! There's MORE!
youknowthegermansmakegoodstuff
· 4 months ago
More like ShamWow Vince.
KaneBlaireau
· 4 months ago
I like how FFG is handling their "CCGs" by making them SEMI collectible. I wish they would do that to the UFS line. That game is as bad as Magic the way you have to keep up.
Wes
· 4 months ago
Yeah, it's "Living Card Game" or LCG. Meaning they'll release fixed expansion decks a couple times a year. No randomness involved. So if you spend the $20 or so for all the decks that come out you'll be on an even playing field with other players.
By the way, for those interested in FFG's stuff but don't want to pay full retail, let me let you in on a secret:
Just search for the game you want and it will search a number of online board game retailers.
My personal favorite is http://www.thoughthammer.com for everything but niche hex and counter boardgames (for those I use wargame depot)
Maine
· 4 months ago
It looks like it's also meant to be standalone - i.e, you only need one copy of the base set to play with 2 people.
Spawn_of_the_Warp
· 4 months ago
They could bring out exsantion packs latter but this look like a good stater set, it look like the card are a diffren shape slight to MTG so they might well be abel to sell card covers
ShadRS
· 4 months ago
If its played similair to the Cthulhu LCG (and the cards look like it is), then one base set is needed for 2 players. But if you want to play with more than 2 players, each player needs their own base set.
Also if you want to create any really interesting decks (single faction decks, theme decks, etc). You'll probably need more than one base set.
Wes
· 4 months ago
That is correct.
The base game will allow 2 players to go at it straight out of the box.
Spawn_of_the_Warp
· 4 months ago
It look like it should be a good game the art work itself look nice, i hope the rules work well iv only played DH before by them (not that i have any of the books) i realy enjoed it, has anyone played wing of war if so what was it like
oni
· 4 months ago
The 40K CCG didn't catch on, I have no hopes that this will either.
Inquisitor Hate Machine
· 4 months ago
This is different. This will catch because it is a "board game" not a Collectible game. Maybe you should read more of the comments before commenting?
BuFFo
· 4 months ago
So the fact that it is a board game will automatically make it catch on?
All Comments
The problem I see with Fantasy Flight is that they're expanding the Games Workshop license too large, too fast.
The RPG seems great. I haven't gotten into it because the books are friggin' ridiculously expensive*. They're asking for ForgeWorld prices. And even ForgeWorld is crazy for asking for so much for their Imperial Armor books.
But the CCGs and board games... they don't seem very promising, more like a bad venture, since it's all been done before and failed.
However, they may have better luck this time around. Thankfully whatever happens to them and their products doesn't directly damage GW.
*I just bought the core rule book for the Rifts RPG system which is $35.95, whereas Dark Heresy's core rule book is $59.95!
One thing though:
"the core rule book for the Rifts RPG system which is $35.95"
This is true, but Rifts is super-cheap compared to everyone.
I also bought the D&D Player's Handbook (v3.5) for only $29.95.
So... I have no idea how they can justify $60 for a core book.
Savage Worlds is a far superior system to the D100 system used in DH and WHFRP. You can learn more about it here: http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf
One of the two fan conversions is more general and not so focused on just being an inquisitors minions...
FFG RPG prices are a bit on the high side per book, but they aren't outrageous. People are comparing it to D&D, but there are three core books for D&D at a total of around $90, compared to that $60 is a bargain.
I find it funny that people who spend hundreds on a 40K army balk at $60 for an RPG.
It's like saying Warhammer is too expensive to play, which is understandable for some, but because you need at least two armies, your flaw in the math is combining the cost of both armies. You make a ridiculous comparison.
I'm sure Dark Heresy is a good gaming system, but for double the price of D&D or Rifts, I think it's a rather retarded marketing move. Especially since it's so new (and unheard of).
Some people prefer being dungeon masters, and will gladly only need a DM book. Others prefer to be players and only need the PHB. It's not rocket science...
The idea that every one in the group needs a copy of the rules is a fallacy.
It's not a matter of how many people you know have X amount of books, expansions, supplements, etc., but what is REQUIRED of play that we're talking about, not what people have opted for.
The only difference being that with RPGs I've found it's more common to play with the minimum necessary than in miniatures games (after all, after you've spent a few hundred on miniatures, what's $50 more for a rulebook?)
In example: If you get a group of 4 people to play D&D. Three of the people each buy themselves a copy of the PHB, and the fourth person buys the DM book. You have a fully functional game, with each person only spending $30~.
If the DM no longer wants to be a dungeon master, he can swap books with another person to become a player.
With Dark Heresy, each person needs to spend $60.
This is where the expensiveness comes into play.
But yes, technically no one needs to even buy anything since it can all be downloaded or shared, but I'm using the way the companies legally allow us to play their games in my examples.
I have to emphasize once again, that I've never known a DM to not own the PHB. The PHB has always had the core rules, so without it there's no way you could run a game. Even then, you can only run a game with human opponents, since you don't have a Monster Manual, so again, $90 minimum to run the full game vs. $60 to run Dark Heresy.
That's not even counting that about half the players I've ever known go ahead and get the other books even though they aren't running the game.
I stand by my original statement that while $60 is a bit on the high side, that it's not outrageous given that it's the complete core rules in one volume.
$60.00 is like what... a squad and a half of marines? comon... suck it up
LCGs are not a proven failure. Since its a fairly new avenue of marketing that only FFG have to date tried. The closest thing to it is Munchkin.
The RPG has been around for eons. Also comparing Rifts (which is black and white, hasn't been updated in over a decade with anything remotely resembling a new/good system) to Dark Heresy (full colour, high quality, gloss) is rather amusing.
Board games... failed? Really? They're one of the top two preeminent board game makers out there. If anyone can make a good game out of this, they can.
At least they do something with the GW IP. GW fails hard at their own.
Rifts was updated in late 2005, thank you, with the Ultimate Edition. And it has both B&W pictures and gorgeous glossy artwork. Palladium has put out such quality gaming material that it hasn't really required any constant updates or changes, and they have proven they understand the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" metaphor.
Oh, and Munchkin is pretty fun. I've only played it twice though.
I know a lot more people who love the GW settings and fluff who only buy the novels or computer games than I know active tabletop gamers. They usually quote price of the minis when asked why they don't play any more. They are usually not averse to throwing £40+ at a new computer game when its released though. These products could very well appeal to them with a one off cost and a heavy dose of artwork and imagery.
You can't really compare FFG's games to the older versions of GW board games though, they make them look like they were made out of cornflake boxes and sticky back plastic... :-D I've got the new Talisman and its current expansions and the production values are great! Boardgames are what FFG do really well & I suspect if anyone is going to make 40k ones work then it will be them.
GW's own subsequent board games were hardly that hot (but at least they made them into free downloads), indeed I think the only really good one they did was the free horus heresy one in white dwarf, but they still sold a few and the mechanics were nothing compared to FFG's.
Board games however interest me, as long as they're sufficiently lore-soaked and full of tasty artwork and exciting game-play mechanics
They tried the same with a 40K-card game of wich I own exactly 1 [one] card. I'm not sure but I suppose it was in the gold-edition box of DoW (if not, I have no idea where I got that thing from...).
$50 and $60 Core Rulebooks for RPGs are quite common nowadays. This is largely due to production quality in that the Dark Heresy core rulebook is hardcover with full color pages while the Rifts RPG has color sections but is mostly black and white, though it is also hardcover. Please don't take this as the start of a Dark Heresy is better than Rifts thread, that is not my intent. I just want to provide perspective.
The game ultimately failed because it grew far too quickly to manage properly, and because imbalance issues weren't efficiently addressed. The support for the game was great, and the staff members were friendly and active in reaching out to the player base.
Just wanted to share, as I have many fond high school memories playing that game.
This is a board game by FFG based on GW's Warhammer Chaos mythology. Details and pictures of the game contents are available at the FFG website. It appears to be a high quality product. I ordered mine! Check out the components at this link:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite...
By the way, for those interested in FFG's stuff but don't want to pay full retail, let me let you in on a secret:
http://www.boardgameprices.com
Just search for the game you want and it will search a number of online board game retailers.
My personal favorite is http://www.thoughthammer.com for everything but niche hex and counter boardgames (for those I use wargame depot)
Also if you want to create any really interesting decks (single faction decks, theme decks, etc). You'll probably need more than one base set.
The base game will allow 2 players to go at it straight out of the box.
lol.