DISQUS

redmachine17 · 9 months ago

I think his [Jay's] BT army is pretty good in the theme stakes. BT are a zealous assault themed army who chain their weapons to their hands until the enemy is vanquished...... They pioneered the LRC, the ultimate assault delivery vehicle..... They MUST take the Emperor's Champion to hunt down enemy characters [even though now you can make a much better chapter master nowadays]..... According to the fluff they have a higher proportion of vets than usual as they're not limited to the 100 in the 1st company that a codex chapter would have....

So he turns up with an assault styled army that includes land raiders and loses points for composition? A bit harsh.

As for the vow, the preferred enemy re roll only really matters when it's termies as they get plenty of high S no save attacks, but I'm sure your plague marines wouldn't have batted an eyelid if a crusader squad hit home. they'd just soak up the assault, laugh, lose a guy to the inevitable power fist dude, then your aspiring champ would slowly chew them up. Besides, even without the preferred enemy, there'd probably be a chaplain in there giving re rolls on the charge [and not many units live to fight a 2nd round against TH termies], which would have been well and truly in theme. Sounds like sour grapes to me

Democratus · 9 months ago

There's a difference between being themed/fluffy and being hobby. An Ork Biker army is fluffy and thematic. But that doesn't mean it is a good hobby list.

If other people gave GB's army a '5' in composition then they only have themselves to blame for not being honest with the scoring system. After all '3' is the score that most armies should recieve. 4 or 5 are for compositions that are above the norm, they allow someone with a very weak army to still collect points. If everyone is on a "give a 5!" roll then they are screwing the weaker lists.

redmachine17 · 9 months ago

ok, I wasn't on a "give a 5!" roll, my point was that GB says - "I got no points for this game, beyond the NORMAL 5 for painting and 5 for THEME"

5 for theme. Normal.

This implies that a list of GB's type is standard fare to get a score of 5 for comp in that gaming network. If he'd said "for some reason the guy scored me a 5, must have been out of pity" or something similar, I wouldn't have said anything.

As for ork biker armies, they can be fluffy and themed without being too hard and annoying to play against. I don't take painboyz in Nob Biker units [as I can't imagine him performing surgery at 90mph with bullets flying everywhere, but we all know he'd try his best!] even though my unit suffers competitively as a result. It sucks when they all die but c'est la vie

Bulwark · 9 months ago

'preferred enemy re roll only really matters when it's termies' ???
ok, lets assume 10 guys on the charge. thats 30 attacks. against WS4 thats 15 hits. but with preferred enemy, that goes up an additional 7.5. thats 22.5 total. Thats like giving each of your guys 1 additional attack for free.
I'd hardly call a free extra attack only useful against termies

redmachine17 · 9 months ago

it would only be really good for the termies, not against them. In the context of that game, a 10 man crusader squad even with re rolls isn't as hard as a decent plague marine unit. Sure, there'll be 2 with good weapons but the normal plods are still only wounding on 5s and the unit would only have 20 nattacks in this case due to blight. Say 2 have power fists, that's 16 ws4, s4, i4 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds then 3+ armour, 4+ FNP, 1 dead statistically, then 2 ws4, s8, i1 no save attack, let's say they both hit, wound and kill. 3 dead in total. Plague marines would have 16 [would be 18 but one died at i4] s4, ws4, i3 attacks, that's 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 dead. The champ has 2 ws4, s8, i1 attacks, say he kills 1. In future rounds the new wound allocation rules mean the BT fists are at more risk than the champ so if no other unit intervened, the Plaguemarines would prob win as I said. Combat wasn't horrifically in favour of the templars due to a re roll. Probably would end a draw, but these mock up stats obviously don't account for shooting casualties prior to assault on either side etc

I agree that against weaker opposition the free attack, as it effectively is, is priceless, no argument there whatsoever.

you do that same scenario above with termies charging and they'd thrash almost anyone, which is why i said it was really useful for them above any others.

Nonplussed · 9 months ago

Why do you guys even comment on his stuff? Goatboy is a cheese-monkey power gamer who like to protest otherwise.

If you hate those tendencies, you know that reading his columns will make you mad. If you want to mix in a little of his cheese to power up your own armies, then well and good. But there's no point in complaining about it. EVERY one of his columns has some measure of comp-suckage in it. You can't expect him to change his spots; its who he is.

biteme · 9 months ago

So true. So true. I am going to just leave BOLS to others, I think. Just so much CHEESE. I thought I was at the GOUDA PLANT!

So long. Must find happier haunts!

Your mom · 9 months ago

Goatboy, even for a "fun" army you build like a jackass. Making rhino walls and hiding behind them is called rules exploitation and I have yet to see a list from you without a Demon Prince with warptime, and marines with maxed out meltaguns.

Quit playing 40k like a game and fight it like a battle for once in your life. Especially if this is for a "fun" tournament.

jwolf_bols · 9 months ago

Mom, please take your meds. The doctor told you to stay off the internet; it's bad for your blood pressure.

Spreader · 9 months ago

Nah, I agree with "Your mom" here. Goatboy didn't leave his safety net of Nurgle and D.Prince behind. When it comes down to it everyone that commented on the beard of this list is pretty close to the truth. I have no problem with the included Enhanced marines, but to back it up with a reliable shield means they might as well have stayed at home.

Goatboy the fact that you comment on FNP not being too overpowered and then never leave home without it annoyed me. It's like shooting Necrons, and no one thinks that's fun. At least they're T4 (troops) and at least you can assault and wipe them off the board though.

I agree completely with the fact that if you can rip out the heart of an army, at times, the player will lose all hope and the game is yours!

jwolf_bols · 9 months ago

FNP is annoying, but it has relative annoyance ratings. In a Nurgle Daemon army, it's about the most annoying thing ever; and of course Nob Bikers are redonkulous. But 20 FNP models in a CSM army isn't that big of a deal. And yeah, funny that Goatboy would mention it as a gamebreaker and have 20/45 non-vehicle models with FNP.
I like shooting Necrons, but I like stabbing them better. If the person doing all the WBB rolls is quick about it, it's not a big deal at all.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

haha, true, actually I had 18 models with FNP, everything else didn't have it. So that is 29 models without FNP, thus I am not really spamming it.

But yes, a whole army with it is extremely annoying, and I found having two squads of it annoying in itself. Thus the change to either just more Nurgle Marines or maybe just other random marked ones (Khorne is looking to give the most bang for the buck, but Slaanesh might be a sleeper).

sodcactus · 9 months ago

Maybe my extremely biased view versus FNP has something to do that one of the Chaos-players I regularly play fields 4-5 squads of Plague Marines. Good luck wiping them in 6 turns (I play BT or Tyranids and both suffer big time against FNP). I usually manage to draw him or win with a tailored Tyranid-list but with an "all-comers" list I'm pretty much smoked.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Hahah yeah that is really really annoying. And nids have a tough time, with nothing being ap 2 or 1 that is consistent. You have to assault, and your reg dudes just can't take the toughness 5 dudes. It sucks. Nids need a fix up in a bad way.

RTM · 9 months ago

Don't genestealers pretty much rox FTW these days? A couple of units of stealers with scuttle puts down some turn-2 hurt. When they go first, stuff dies. Just make sure you have some can openers to get rid of the rhinos first. . .

sodcactus · 9 months ago

If they get there... My opponent knows what the Stealers can do so it's "shoot the clawy things first" rule for him.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

It is a nurgle themed army, and not taking plague marines, would make it pretty unthemey etc.

FNP is great versus base troops, and I feel it was a bit too much as I have stated later on in the comments. The next Bile list, would have only one troop squad, to attach to Bile. It makes rolls easier since the whole unit would have FNP etc.

I do agree any kind of multi roll hurts the game. Necrons will be getting FNP in the future, as it is a simpler rule versus well be back, as well as limiting it and making it better in some sense. It is also an extremely theme based power when dealing with robots as well as nurgle marines. Regular fire shouldn't hurt them, while heavy fire should blow them completely away. FNP on Necrons will also help them not die to combat, since they won't lose the guy right away, and thus will take away a wound from combat resolution.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

Mmmm, FNP on my Gaunts. Please GW..... ;-) Nah, won't happen but would fit with the fluff.... As a sidenote, isn't GW going a bit overboard on the Fearless-thing? Soon it's only eldars and IG taking morale-checks :-)

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I agree. It is pretty annoying. Leadership is now the random thing that can mess you up. But it is fun to chase someone off the board. Booga booga booga.

I've had whole squads of CSM Termies run off the board with fear the darkness :(.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

How is using rhinos to create walls and ways to push the enemy in directions you want them to go a rules exploitation? It is a viable tactic, just like hiding troops behind your vehicles. Isn't that the same thing, with just the rhinos creating sections to try and push the opponent into.

And if you see, the list doesn't have maxed out melta guns. I could have 6 more, but chose not to, by putting in plasma guns. I could have also added combi meltas to each rhino too if I wanted too.

And I take Daemon princes because they are a better choice for the army. If you saw, I just took one. And a lot of good those maxed out melta guns did for me when faced with an LR or two.

Myrmidon · 9 months ago

As to the Rhino walls - I can easily see its application as a solid 'in game' tactic. Where people have problems with it is that GW has always to a certain extent sold the game as sort of a 'pulp sci-fi' / picture yourself as the main hero sort of escapism that goes hand in glove with 'willing suspension of disbelief'. (Willing suspension of disbelief = why no one ever asks why the hell there's a chasm in the middle of the damn Death Star, much less why Luke happens to have a rope and grapple on his belt...) And few things in the game are more effective at breaking that 'escapism' sort of mood than 'rules base tactics that break willing suspension of disbelief'. About the only form of gaming where the phrase "Quick - circle the Rhinos!" works is old westerns - or if one is playing the IG and under attack by Feral Orks. (Dez Gone Native.) There are just certain things everyone knows - Bruce Willis would never be caught dead circling the Rhinos, and Elvis would never be caught dead carrying a plasma pistol.

As for the melta guns, I suppose that could make for a whole interesting article and/or group poll as to what / where the breaking point is for fluff vs excessive firepower.

And as for your Daemon Prince - I know more than a few players who would have been overjoyed by the simple fact that there weren't two who both miraculously happened to have the 'Lash'.

Veahirin · 9 months ago

here here, good tactics isn't being cheesy

-V

Whatajoke · 9 months ago

Too mark someone down for Preferred Enemy and 2 LRs only to take two squads of enhanced Chaos Space Marines w/Mark of Nurgle, 3 Meltas, 2 othe squads with 3 plasmas and 4 Obliterators is hipocritical. Sounds like someone had a hissy fit in the 2nd game because things didn't go their way. Nice going Goatboy

sodcactus · 9 months ago

Compairing preferred enemy vs T5, FNP, 3+ save, Blight Grenades, BP/CCW, Asp. Champ. I know which I would bet coming out on top....

AdamHarry · 9 months ago

It's not a mark down. 3 is a balanced score. In the Hobby Tourneys we play here, the attitude needs to shift from 'why didn't you give me max points' to 'why didnt I earn max points'

You dont start with a 5 and go down, you start with a 0 and work up.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

T5, FNP, Blight grenades all of that, don't matter if you don't get hits at all. And when you boil down combat, whoever does more hits wins. All of that mess won't help you in the long run, when your one dude costs a hell of a lot more then the others.

I also didn't have 2 extremely hard assault units. You could say my DP was the heaviest assault unit I had, while both termie squads make a nice mush out of all my dudes on the charge. Yeah it is great taking off the one attack, but when you can reroll all misses, you see that missing that one attack doesn't matter as much.

5 termies, assaulting plague marines - I don't kill any and it is onto power fist a go go. Normal termies - 20 attacks 10 hits - 8 to 9 wounds. BT 20 attacks - 15 hits - 13 - 14 wounds, which is a fully dead Plague marine, marine, etc squad.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

True, against Termies it counts big time with the rerolls but if we mathhammering a normal 10 man CC BT-squad charging 8 Plague Marines:
Black Templar charge;
27 A (CCW) + 2 PF
Blight Grenade -1 A gives
18 A + 1 PF
9 Hits + .5 PF
Rerolls
4.5 Hits + .25 PF
It's stupid with half hits so round up
14 hits (now I only calc with the normal attacks since PF has I1)
5 wounds
3 Saves made
1 FNP made
-> loss of 1 Plague Marine
then I put PF for itself 'cause the guy killed by it will have his attacks first.
+ 1 PF at I1
0.75 Hits (say 1)
1 Wound
1 killed
-------
2 Plague Marines down. (1 at I4 one at I1)

Nurgle strikes back:

6 PMarines (at I3) + 1 PF Champ.
12 Attacks + 2 PF
6 hits + 1 hits
3 wounds + 1 wound
2 saves
1 BT killed + 1 killed from PF

Net: 2 PM (46 p) dead, 2 BT (34 p) dead. CC standoff and that was when BT charged! If PM charges the BT it's a totally different game....

w/o preferred enemy the Plague Marines would have suffered 1.5 wounds, with the vow they suffer 2 wounds.

But that's Mathhammer. I still think that T5, FNP and Blight Grenade is a extremely durable combo.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

The reg marines are fine, it is the two super assault squads. But yeah I agree PM are tough, and with second thoughts I should have dropped the one for another just reg CSM squad. A lot of it had to do with not having a reg squad converted. The two PM really look like PM's, while the other CSM squads look like upgraded CSM.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

As a BT player it's easy to cheese out on the Assault Termies. Take 5 LC-termies + 1 Chaplain, all with Term. Honors. Furious Charge for the LC-termies. They will have 20 attacks on charge at I5, S5 w reroll to hit and wound + a chaplain with 6 PW-attacks. Will mash almost everything....

Anon2 · 9 months ago

Er...wrong, BT use their smoke launchers in their codex, so downgrade to a glance...not a save, and that is by far not the only competetive build, in fact that build is rare.

Its an insult thinking that he represents all BT players, for him and us. Not to be a **** but why do the things on BoLS these days come across as really aragont rants...

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Hrm... Welp that is my fault, as I just took it that all worked the same way. It might have been in our local store FAQ. Oh well, I would have had a chance to pop that sucker then.

Walls · 9 months ago

Not to be "that" guy but you do realize you were saying FNP hurts the game while playing multiple units of plague marines and oblits who can have twin linked weapons?

Aside from that, I also hate Templars. They always give me fits. I do think you were probably pretty hard on marking him though. You got a 5 and his wasn't any less flavorful.

Walls · 9 months ago

By FNP I meant "rerolling" of course.

John Stiening · 9 months ago

I want to amplify Walls here. Players of your skill really need to be generous to others. This may just have been his list. I know that If I were placed in front of you, my best list would likely get thumped by one of your hobby lists. When I think hobby game, I think of chatting with my opponent and helping each other out with the rules. Minor things like reminding the guy to fire his demolisher or move a unit. In fluff terms, no space marine would forget to move or fire. They are the best! All in all, I think it is just a matter of perspective. In this community we know you are a fantastic player. Please keep these articles coming, they enrich the game.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Jay is a friend of mine and we agreed that would be the better case for the army. We both thought it didn't belong in the tournament, but it was said to try it out and see how it went. I gave him a 3, because a 4 or a 5 were not the case for the tournament.

And yeah, I agree FNP is a pain in the butt, but with a 1 wound model, that in all related doesn't kill nearly as much as say a rerolling to hit unit, it makes it a bit better. FNP on marines, or anything else with 1 wound is not really an issue, it is things with either multiple attacks, multiple wounds, etc that it becomes a problem. When you have 30 attacks, and normally 15 would hit, but with the reroll you are getting 22 to 23, it becomes a problem. With FNP you have only one wound, so any fail is a major loss, while in Nobz, one wound is not nearly as big of a deal.

But a 3 according to the rules, is a list that put winning above balance, which is what I felt due to the nature that this is a tweak of Jay's heavy Templar list he would play in a heavy "competitive tournament". Changes would have been to add rhinos to create walls and drop the Ven Dread as it wasn't needed. It did miss everytime it fired.

I put in two plague marine squads with plasma guns (inferior to melta, but I didn't want to unconvert my plague marines) to help out with the whole rolling a 1 or a 6 at times. Just to make sure I could finish a game and not worry about losing all my troops to the vile chemicals of bile.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

And here is the scoring system.

0- This list made the game un-fun, it is in the wrong tournament
1- This list was a bad example of construction for the particular arm
2- List placed winning over theme
3- Balanced list
4- A good example of chosen army
5- Fair, balanced, well constructed with the spirit of the army and the game in mind.

As you see, a 3 is a balanced list, as I didn't want to just give a 2, as in a lot of ways, it was "balanced". Thus a 3, isn't that terrible of a choice in this matter. Also, the up to 15 points he might not gotten didn't matter as he was fairly far ahead in terms of games, with just Nick's Daemons getting more bonus points.

jwolf_bols · 9 months ago

So I got into the comment thread to defend you, then started looking at this list you made. Every model is fearless. Every model that can have a transport does. There are no soft or overcosted units in the army (no tanks, no dreads, no breakable units). It has 4 Obliterators and every squad has a Powerfist. All the troops are T5. Pretty much the only thing that makes this not hard is that the Daemon Prince is Nurgle with Warptime instead of Slaanesh with Lash.
The theme is pretty good, but it's not a significantly softer list than Jay's. I'd give you a 5 and Jay's a 4, but I like harder lists than a lot of people do; I could see either list getting 3s pretty easily.
The best part of the whole post is the perfect illustration of my point that even good players don't now the rules well enough. 5 glances with Meltas should have had a 5/6 chance of destroying Jay's Land Raider, and had you followed the BT smoke rules, game 2 likely would have gone differently. Since you know Jay, you know he wasn't forgetting the rule to screw you over, but with some random stranger at a circuit event???
Now, as to your detractors:
FNP is not as strong as BTs with Preferred Enemy. Very few players can do much of anything effective against BTs in any deployment except Dawn of War. The Emperor's Champion by himself can massacre most CC units with that vow. FNP on Plague Marines is nowhere near as tough as it is on Nob Bikers or even Plaguebearers, as a Battlecannon shot just plain kills them.
And since the whole post is about the effect of giving up, Goatboy is using his whininess about that first failed Land Raider kill to demonstrate the effect that becoming resigned has on a player's ability to continue effectively. I think it's perfect, and exemplifies why I often try to kill my opponents' Uber Commander of Doom on turn 1 - this takes 90+% of players straight out of the game.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

The problem with hobby, doesn't mean take crap units. If you are playing Chaos, you will most likely have all fearless troops. Why? Because that is the majority of the army. And all the rhinos, dude it is a mobile army. When did having all rhinos become a dig at being too uber haha. They are boxes of doom ready to bring their bolter pain onto the enemies.

But how is running 4 Rhinos any different then an army just have transport vehicles. It isn't like I threw down with LR's running around. I just like it since it makes setting up easier hahaha.

jwolf_bols · 9 months ago

I don't take crap units, nor am I saying you have to take crap units to be hobby. I am saying you have only fearless units in the whole list, and that the every troop model is T5. That's a pretty hard nut of troops, and CSM troops are the best troops around.
Rhinos are extremely versatile models, regardless of their value as transports; it is disingenuous for you to feign confusion about how that makes your army harder.
As I said, Jay's army was harder than yours, but a couple Land Raiders in a BT army actually makes the army softer, not harder (in my experience). Fewer guys makes BTs less killy, regardless of their delivery options.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Yes, versatile which makes them good. They don't win the game for you, they help your army out and running one with every squad just flows into the whole thought that your army has to move around the battlefield. It just makes sense and fits in.

Plus tanks are neat. And yeah you like LR's because you have lots and lots of ways to kill them with your guard, thus leaving those terminators out in the open for some lasgun love hehe.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

I think your post also point at the utter stupidity of GW to NOT update all the wargear in the different codexes to the latest iteration. I mean, if you guys who are long time veterans and know the ins and outs of the rules forgets about the different codex-specific rules on wargears how will it be for newcomers, especially in a year or two when the current SM wargear "always has worked like that" and there is very dim memories of the "old wargear rules".

Well, just ranting...

bushidoredpanda · 9 months ago

I still maintain that the only reason the Christmas Templars made a showing is because the store owner thinks they are not a heavy list.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I know :). That is why I gave you a 3, if people don't rate armies like they are supposed too, then we won't have a "true" hobby tournament. If there every can be one hah.

zenjah · 9 months ago

What would you have rated your own army? Do you agree with the 5 you were given?

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I would say the list is a 3 to a 4. As I played it, I felt the 2 squads of plague marines were a bit much, and I should have dropped 1 of them for another fabius bile marine unit. In fact I might drop one squad of obliterators and try some different marked bile troops. Just to mess around with it.

But as I played, I thought the 2 squads of plague marines were a bit of a pain for people, especially Tau, Nids, and IG. When dealing with str 3 weapons and units, wounding on a 6 is a pain.

I found the extra str on the bile marines to be a big help, and the toughness 5, while good, not nearly as important as the str 5. Adding a 1 to ini or 1 to atts might be a better option, since it will make them a much more viable threat.

CT · 9 months ago

Sounds like Khorne is whispering in your ear. :)

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I think it will end up being more fun to have khorne dudes running around. Mini kinda of Bezerkers with better guns. Woot can't say no to that eh?

jwolf_bols · 9 months ago

This is something I can easily defend Goatboy about. If you make mistakes or forget something, he is entirely gracious about letting you move models or fire units or whatever.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I would rather win by tactics, not by you forgetting something that is pretty obvious. We all forget from time to time, and it is just a game. I let people go back and move stuff if they forgot etc. Now if you are a crap head, I won't be as nice haha. But I rarely have played a real crap head.

Herald of Nurgle · 9 months ago

No comment (well, I AM a Nurgle player)

Dictator · 9 months ago

Aside from the fact hat you ran fabius bile: you have a very beardy list. I find it contradictory that you gave a perfectly themed black templar army lower points while your list is essentially a giant beard.
Perhaps your list would be more hobby oriented if you ran chosen, no DP, and a squad of possessed, and a chaos dread or two. Those are hobby units/fun units. Your list is big bushy beard. Minus Fabius Bile.

Massawyrm · 9 months ago

Hobby doesn't mean hamstrung by poor choices. It means NO CHEESE. Nob Bikers, Nidzilla, Mech Eldar, Twin Lash Princes w/ 9 Oblits, 3+ LRs...that kind of stuff. If you're maxing out the most effective units in your codex, then you're not Hobby. Otherwise, this is hardly the beardiest list playing Saturday. It was actually pretty par for the course.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

So then, how to build a non-cheese BT-list and not getting hamstrung by poor choices?

Goatboy · 9 months ago

The problem with BT, is that they are an old army, and thus their rules are just not set up for 5th all that well. This causes the whole, only one type of army is competitive thing you see in a lot of the older lists. Will see at some point if they come out with a codex. These guys are supposed to be like knights, so why not up their termies into monsters they should be. Oh well... will see.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

That I can agree with. If you skip the vow for Preferred enemy the BT are actually not a very competitive SM-army at all. Lack of sergeants is not made up by being able to take 10 almost-marines (Neophytes). No Librarian (means not very good protection vs psy-powers) and then the lack of heavy weapons also forces the player into building a very aggressive "in-your-face" list. I guess there's a reason they're called the SM-Orkz :-)

Unfortunately, looking at the fact that BT-codex came out in 2003 and the current updating-speed of GW we'll probably get a new codex around 2011-2012?

Mike · 9 months ago

Black templars smoke launchers downgrade penetrating hits to glancing as they are in the codex, not the rulebook so didn't change with the update to 4th ed so he shouldn't have taken cover saves on his land raiders

bushidoredpanda · 9 months ago

Holy crap I think you're right! wow, that makes them even more stupid awesome!

Mozz · 9 months ago

However, aren't melta weapons incapable of glancing? Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

They get a +1 to the roll, so it is -1 instead of -2. So in a sense they can blows it up. Or wreck it.

DJ-of-E · 9 months ago

Is it just me or did your list look like a 2000pt list, and yet it's off by like around 50 points.

DJ-of-E · 9 months ago

Nevermind, I counted extra

Xelloss · 9 months ago

As a Black Templars player, I should say : why so much hate ? :p

Indeed the smoke doesn't provide cover, only being more than 50% obscurated (but the two of them can stack). BT have a few old-fashionned rules since GW nicely rewrote lots of stuff of the core rulebook in their codex.
What else can I say ? BT don't like being shoot at (but it make them go forward) and they really don't like being charged (only 1 powergantlet attack :/ ...).

It would be nice to have the exact army list of the 3 players (tau, BT & nid)

Rich · 9 months ago

Templars... Meh! I've never found them that difficult to deal with but maybe thats because I played with them so much in 3rd/4th ed. I disagree that their only competitive build is a bunch of dudes, a couple of LRs and some Termies but thats all largely irrelevant.

Goat, I have to say that you've hit the nail on the head with this one! The number of opponents I face who throw in the towel as soon as they lose the unit that they have based their entire strategy on, or as soon as they have a turn of bad dice rolling is amazing! Half the time it seems to be down to only having one big idea in the army list construction, the other half seems to be because they are unwilling to adapt their battle plan during the game when something goes wrong like they have a perfect image of how the game should go & if it doesn't conform then they just aren't interested in taking part... Frankly, sometimes its demoralizing!

I never give up until the death, and I've won many games that seemed irredeemable. In a recent game using Codex Daemons against Tau I ended up losing half my army (including the Thister) to bad deep strike rolls and I thought about chucking in the towel or asking for a re-rack, but I hung onto the objectives like grim death and selectively counter charged off them withwhatever I had available to prevent the key Tau units getting close enough to contest. At the end of the game I had maybe half a dozen Plaguebearers left split over the two objectives and one Beast of Nurgle against two thirds of the Tau army but I still pulled the win thanks to cover, FNP and never saying die!

Apart from denying yourself the opportunity to pull the game back you're cheating your opponent out of a good game by throwing in the towel. Its supposed to be about both players having fun & sure no-one likes losing all the time but all of us will lose a game at some point, whether its down to the cubes, making a mistake or to our opponent's good tactics. If you take a beasting just suck it up & see what you can pull out of it, whether its in terms of an objective grab, a unit kill or just managing to keep that last dude alive in the face of the gribbly alien horde by the end of the last turn. You just never know what might happen when dice are involved :-)

Parcival · 9 months ago

Very good comment. =) Reminds me of the game when I terribly lost with Orkz against Grey Knights, but one of my Gretchins managed to shoot a Greyknight (it was hilarious) and a Killakan killed Captain Stern. =)

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Those little wins like that make the game fun. Hell I assaulted the big Tank thing they had up here as the toilet magazine holder with a bunch of nobz, warbosses, and nob bikerz. I finally killed it after 3 rounds of combat. It didn't blow up big like I wanted, but it made the game for me even though I lost after the Warhound walked over the wreckage.

But winning the small battles can at least let you feel like you did something. Especially when the weakest thing took it out. Killing Termies with Grots means that grot is a super grot. +1 to leadership

LEGION3000 · 9 months ago

I have to agree with that. I recall a droptroop IG vs Eldar game where the guard were getting raped in combat all over the board until on tiny unit of 5 guys charged 5 fire dragons and wiped them out. Good Times.

strikerfox · 9 months ago

i just got done playing against my friend who was playing marines (horus pre-heresy themed), with my orks.. well sad to say he gave up turn 3 when he failed a bunch of saving throws, and power fist attacks... i mean, i got some things taken care of (two of his dreads), but he took out my whole warboss and his nobz.. i still think he coulda pulled a win since he still had his command squad.. but he gave up... :\

Anon · 9 months ago

Jay runs lame army at a hobby tournament, news at 11

Why is it that this dude can't run anything but god-awful terrible too-bad-for-even-hobby armies, or complain about how he isn't winning with an idiotic army and then go to the opposite extreme and then bring one of many variations of nasty armies? :(

bushidoredpanda · 9 months ago

LOL! I only have one nasty army and its the templars.

rocketrollrebel · 9 months ago

Although goatboys list is a lil tough I dont think that possessed really fit the whole Fabius theme since they are well... possessed! haha But yeah nice article I've had some games where I feel like giving up early on because a big part of my army gets destroyed or neutered early in the game (ie LRC w/corbs and assault termies and both my rhinos go down turn one...) but at that point I try and slug it out and have fun with it and hope for the best!

Herald of Nurgle · 9 months ago

The Possessed could simply be really altered CSM - they just need to be modelled differently lol

stayscrunchyinmilk · 9 months ago

For painting please comment:
I would really, really appreciate good advice on washing black on white - I have around 100 painted imperial guardsmen, who all have the foundation light grey trousers that need some serious shading.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I wouldn't use black. Personally, take the devlan mud and use that. It is a good mix of black and brown washes, which should give you the dark parts you want, as well as not being too black. Once you coat their paints, then go back with the foundation light grey and highlight the upper edges of the pants and folds. That should give you enough variation in the pants and make for a nice look.

fade_74 · 9 months ago

Use badab black wash. don't just slop it on though. Use a detail brush and paint it where you want it.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Badab black is a bit too dark, I find you can put on more devlan mud and then go on top with the color again to get a nice dark shaded look, that doesn't look too black.

Badab works great on darker color sets, but anything that is lighter, will have the chance to make wash rings (thing layers, that look like dried puddles of color on top of the original). Thus I like devlan better since it has brown in it, and most of the time brown is a nice shade color.

RTM · 9 months ago

Put in a drop of diswashing detergent into the bottle of wash, and then when you use the wash mix it 1/2 wash, 1/3 gel medium, and 1/6 water.

If using real ink, drop ink to 1/3 ink, 1/2 gel medium, and 1/6 water.

You won't have a drying lake ring ever again.

RTM

sodcactus · 9 months ago

What is gel medium?

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Gel medium is basically paint without the paint bits that make it a color. You can buy it at any art store. It is just the medium that the paint bits are suspended in.

Make sure to get Matte medium, as it won't leave it shiny.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

Ah, Thanks!

RTM · 9 months ago

Actually buy a little bottle of gloss medium and a big bottle of the matte medium. The matte is for general figure painting, and you will use a LOT of it in a year. The gloss is a much easier way of doing water, gems, and windows than using "water effects" material a la last month's White Dwarf. I also use gloss medium for painting over patent leather boots (arbiters, mordians) after the mini is otherwise hosed down with matte spray. Clever little monkeys with other armies will find other uses for gloss medium (gore, saliva, etc.) Paint on carefully after the mini is otherwise done and sealed. Also good when adding small amount of ink, so you add some "depth" to a translucent-like paint job.

RTM

Myrmidon · 9 months ago

Pictures or it didn't happen! (Sorry, Blackheart moment there.) I'd love to see a link if you've got pics of any your recently painted stuff. I was just teaching a new gamer some of the basics of painting and was telling him about your 'Pinky the Librarian' mini. :)

fade_74 · 9 months ago

I guess it is just personal preference. I use black because I want it to mesh well with blacklining between parts. If you use brown it can run into that blacklining and it just looks sloppy. When using black washes on really light colors you cant just slap it on. If you use a very thin liner brush and use it like paint you can get great results without that puddle ring effect. I do use browns to shade red and yellows though. Warm colors like red, orange, and yellow, should be shaded with other warms, like brown. Cold colors like blue, greys with blue or green undertones, greens, and purples should be shaded with black or a matching tone darkened with black.

The guy is using astronomican grey....a very light blue grey. I just think that the browns wont match up. If you dont like the black you could always use a sparing wash of adeptus battlegrey (foundation) darkened with a litte badab black.

As far as the other guys using dishwashing liquid, it works and everyone should try it. I am not fond of the gel medium though. I find that it is a little thick for my taste. I like being able to push the paint around a little. Gel always just kinda sits there for me. I guess im oldschool lol.

The gloss medium is a good idea for gems....but ill go one better. My wife had a bottle of her super duper high shine extra special nail polish go missing. It works great for really shiny surfaces.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

It might be worthwhile to mix half badab and the blue together to get a nice dark blue, that isn't too strong of a blue to overpower the grey.

But thanks for the info, I always like to mess with new stuff :).

John Stiening · 9 months ago

kudos on the nail polish. I hadn't thought of that.

LEGION3000 · 9 months ago

If you don't slop it on you wont get a dry ring. Apply it like you would any detail paint.

Also there are some times when you want white to be white and not just a lighter shade of beige so you can't use any kind of brown.

Pete · 9 months ago

A perfect example of the 'never give up, never surrender!' attitude making a difference occurred in a game this weekend at our local X-Legion tournament. I was playing Guard against Ian's all-infantry ork list (1750 points contianing 182 orks). The mission was sieze ground with 4 objectives and spearhead deployment. I was terrified. However, then things started to go my way - I won choice of deployment zones and first turn, setting up so his mobs would have to go through or around choke points (no easy task with 6 x 30 strong mobs). Once the game started, things went even better for me. The dice loved me, and hated Ian - out of some 17 battle cannon shots, about 10 were direct hits, and most of the rest scattered beneficially. Same with frag missiles. After my turn 2, I'd killed about 70 orks for no losses. His weirdboy tried to teleport a full size mob behind me, scattered on my guys and bounced back to reserve, taking them out of the game until turn 5. Everything was going my way.

Ian never gave up though. He continued to play in his usual orky way, and in the end, he had 6 models left. My total losses were a sentinel and 9 men, two of which were killed by one of my own scattering battle cannons, and considered acceptable collateral damage. However, I didn't win the game. I had been so focused on stopping the orks reaching my lines that I hadn't started to maneuver to get objectives until too late, and in the end the game was a draw (with 2 each), despite having been so one sided. On turn 5, Ian was actually winning! If there was a turn 7, I'd have wiped him out completely and objectives would have been irrelevant.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

Perfect example of the shift of focus in 5th, away from VP's towards objectives (at least in 2/3rd of the cases :-) ). You may be crushed by your opponent but if he/she loses sight of the overall objective you may still pull a draw or a win!

Xas · 9 months ago

The general message is correct. You only loose in two ways: by the end of the game or by giving up.

two funny examples:

first is a game I basically won after my first action of shooting. It was 3 objectives with my nids against space marines on spearhead. he won side/first turn so he started on one objective and I had none. the objective was inside a ruin totally blocking LOS in the lower level and with some windows in 2nd and 3rd floor.
knowing that I had close range fire superiority (shooty bugs) as well as 2 free, undefended objectives to grab I deployed out of bolter range with the small ones and claimed cover from itnervening buildings for my big bugs against the heavy weapons.

I managed to steal the initiative and moved my stuff. long story short: when my dakkarant shot down 5 of his marines that he thought were so super-though he hid everything left in the lower level of that building and I won the game 2:1.


the other story was me winning against chaos because 7 gaunts and 1 zoantrophe were sitting on an objective while the walkrant and hs guards heroically died while holding off a deamon prince, a greater deamon and a bunch of obliteirators and the flyrant killed 20 thousand sons and then got killed by the monster-duo.
2 turns was not enough even for a winged prince to cross the whole bord!

Joe · 9 months ago

Dude - Proof reading is your friend.

This has so many typos and missing words it is a PITA to read.

duder · 9 months ago

"He was playing Tau and had two Rail gun shits, some dudes and some suits. Nothing too crazy."

Er... I think you mean suits lol

But good article none the less!

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I had bigred proof my stuff before I post. i am pretty terrible with some misspellings at times. It probably comes from writing articles late at night when I am free from having to do other things (finish models, life, etc). My bad, but it seems to have been fixed already.

Woot.

mortal888 · 9 months ago

"He was playing Tau and had two Rail gun shits, some dudes and some suits. Nothing too crazy."

I must still be pretty juvenile, because that was cracking me up.

zannal · 9 months ago

It was 2 Hammer heads. Not rail gun suits/shits.
It was a realyl bad game for my Tau that day with the piss poor roleing.

I though you took pics of tournament Goatboy? I was almost excited to see if my ugly mug would be all across the interwebs!

Goatboy · 9 months ago

It came out like crap :(. Going to look at getting a better camera with a tripod in the coming weeks.

slovak · 9 months ago

Just out of curiosity Goatboy, what score would you have expected your list to get from your opponents throughout the day?

Good article, I like your editorials very much.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

As I said earlier, I felt the 2 Plague marines were a bit much, and towards the end of the day I would probably say between a 3 and a 4 for the list. Next list with Bile in it, will have probably just one Plague marine squad for him (to help keep all the rolls even, everyone has FNP) and then like a nurgle bile marine, khorne bile marine, and maybe a slaanesh one to test things out. I will probably drop one obliterator squad and just leave the two and go from there.

Running rhinos really makes you feel very mobile, which is a lot of fun in a marine army. The whole push for melta, also makes dreadnoughts not nearly as bad of an option, since most fire is locked at 12 or 24 inches.

No_Gamers_in_Mississippi · 9 months ago

99% of the time I'll play it out but sometimes if you give you may have time two play game 2 or 3.

styx · 9 months ago

I really agree with Goatboy about loosing morale in a game, not really playing your best and just wanting to finish to move on to perhaps a more enjoyable game.

This breaks down into two points that perhaps Goatboy missed:
1) The player and the army...
2) The luck of the game

With 1, you end up with a real Mr Potato Head (no personality), Rules Lawyer, the Super competative guy (WIN WIN! Very Type A player) or the just flat out arrogant/rude guy. Perhaps they bring that abusive list that yea is legal, yea it is a tournament but what is the fun in making something just that? Competition should be healthy not a disease.

2 is more where Goatboy went, dice rolls bad, bad decisions, etc on your part...then you got things like the other guy must have just sold his soul to the devil for the luck he is having or as my favorite quote "Buy a lotto ticket tonight...but if you win, I want half for the advise."

Goatboy's article reminds me of when I first played 40k back in 2nd edition. I was the newest player in the campain with the least expereince in the system playing a huge map based campain. Well, it got ugly between a Space Wolf player and my Iron Warriors...guy showed up with an all terminator army with cyclones and assult cannons (anyone reall the fond days of the sustained fire dice?) let's just say it sucked to toss all those sustained fire dice and watching him roll handfulls of dice. I was out pointed something liker 1250pts to 2000pts. I had the advantage that I dug in, used some in game merits to cook up a few suprises. Needless to say, I lost the game, but he had one of the hardest fought games the entire league as he usually rolled over other players in games prior until the Tyranid player rolled into his zone and promptly ate him. At the end of that league week the guys voted including the Store Owner/GM to award a prize for the fact that I was not discouraged, fought tooth and nail to the end and made a solid statement that I was not going to be an easy win.

n00bMan · 9 months ago

How many points is this army?

Goatboy · 9 months ago

It came out to right under 2000 points.

Aventine · 9 months ago

GOATBOY IS BAD AND SHOULD FEEL BAD..........BLLAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGHH

Goatboy · 9 months ago

YOU SIR ARE A MEANIE!!! AND I THINK YOU SMELL!!!

and I do feel bad... cuz I am at work hah.

Mozz · 9 months ago

You always lose out by throwing in the towel. Say you lose your best AT against an army with two LRs. Quitting here spares your ego (maybe) but also makes it impossible to learn. Frequently players play battles with the resources they think they need and not with what they have on the table. Maybe you don’t need to kill the LRs to win or draw. Maybe there are ways to maneuver to minimize your opponent’s advantage. You won’t know if you quit. Fighting with an involuntary handicap won’t necessarily get you a win but it will force you to adopt new strategies that WILL prove effective in later games.

Another option is to change the objectives in the middle of the game. I was playing my IG vs a buddy’s Grey Knights. I nuked his LR and two dreadnaughts by turn two and he called it and we wrapped after about 20 minutes of play time. We should have just made it an escape scenario at that point, and pick two points on the map for him to escape to. I had a major point advantage but he had a decent head start with half of his army. That way we could have kept playing without it being a one-sided ass kicking. It would have been fun for both of us, interesting as it’s not a standard mission type, and we’d have had the added education of adapting our strategy on the fly.

Both ideas call for the players to throw out their old ideas, whether it’s the general tactics of your units or the original objective. Mix it up, you’ll be better off for it.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Oh yeah, instead of concentrating on how I could slow down his assault and use bait techniques to create favorable shooting situations (he can't have good dice rolls all game right?!?) I could have pulled this game out to a draw, or a small victory if I just didn't throw in the towel.

And that is the biggest thing I can say that I like about 5th edition. You don't have to kill everything to win. Thus the increased value of tough troops. Ie Nurgle, FNP dudes, termies, ninjas, baby ninjas, dragons, monkey baby ninjas, etc.

asdfas · 9 months ago

did you seriously give a low comp score to someone when you yourself took 2 units of PLAGUE MARINES and OBLITERATORS to a casual tournament

you are everything that is wrong with this hobby

"wahh wahh the best line infantry in the entire game got beat by an out-of-date codex because I rolled poorly, stupid overpowered black templars"

biteme · 9 months ago

Exactly. Goatman? More like GOATDICK.

Cheeseball.

sodcactus · 9 months ago

I hope that was a tongue in cheek comment 'cause why the name calling? It's not very constructive....

John Stiening · 9 months ago

That is uncalled for biteme. Goatman posts a lot of really good content, and does a lot to make BoLS interesting to us all.

BigBob · 9 months ago

Goatboy, how is Fabius Bile doing anything in your army?

His "enhanced warriors" ability specifically mentions only "Chaos Space Marine" units, the first troops choice in the army list (the basic CSM's that are 15pts each), *NOT* cult units like Plague Marines or other CSM units like Havocs, Chosen, or Obliterators.

unless I'm wrong (which I don't think I am) I don't believe Fabius Bile can "enhance" Plague Marines, you may want to double check that.

qwerty · 9 months ago

he only gave the upgrade to the generic CSM in his list

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Yes, it only went to the basic CSM. I had the two plague marine squads in there, in case I rolled a 6 and started killing my dudes. But it wasn't as big of a deal and I am going to drop it down to one squad in the future and still working with the bile upgrade with icons of Khorne.

smurfhater · 9 months ago

I had a good example of how not giving up can get you a draw from the weekend. Playing a chaos player, who was not cheesy in the slightest, i had the iniative stolen from me resulting in one of my combat squads being reduced to the lone sargeant. in the last turn of the came, after the rest of the army recieved a severe mauling, he was the only man left alive in any postion to do anything. I took a gamble and moved and ran my sarge to contest an objective and force a draw. what made this all the more the ironic was the fact that when he was in his final postion he was staring into the face of a demon prince 2" away

Lord Eyad · 9 months ago

Personally I think Goatboys list is very themed, I like the idea behind them and as long as the Oblits were modelled to match it would look good.

However, its still a fairly tough list, I would expect it to hammer a lot of "hobby" lists. It has rock-hard troops and excellent mobility. Neither shooting or close combat are completely awesome, but they are above average.

To the comments that FNP isn't that great on ordinary troops, wait until you see the games where the opposing troops kill 1 plague marine with their basic weapons...all game! It's a bit of mathhammer, but do you realise that it will take 72 Guardsmen to kill a single marine with lasguns?

But it really is a matter of context. From my readings here on BOLS, many of the local gamers use extremely 'hard' lists, even in their friendly or hobby games.
In my location it is much gentler and most people use much friendlier lists; our hardest lists are Nidzilla, massed Death Guard and the Eldrad Wraithwall.

Either way of playing is fine, as long as you dont end up matching 'real hard' against 'real fluffy'...it doesn't turn out well.

But I agree completely with Goatboys "never surrender' editorial, you never know when something might just turn around. And even if it doesn't you can keep trying for that awesome story (and here's mine).

A game against Eldar (in 3rd or 4th Ed) and a guardsman squad was nearly wiped out, leaving only a single flamer trooper who was falling back and couldn't rally.
But every turn I rolled and he slowly wandered towards my edge. Suddenly in my turn I noticed a warwalker had moved past to shoot up more of my troops and was in range of the retreating flamer.
Automatic hit, 6 for a glace, a 6 and the warwalker explodes in flames. It was simply awesome.
Unfortunately, my opponent didn't make that mistake twice and the flamer trooper died horribly next turn...but it was so damn funny.

Arachne · 9 months ago

Goats posts may not be perfect, but a genius is measured by his originality, not perfection.
People are judged by what they create, not what they can moan about!

Arachne · 9 months ago

Good points Goat. You really do kick things off.

Dont defeat yourself before you've begun.

Theres nothing wrong with giving the impression of defeat either. I mean some games are total walk overs and not much can be done to remedy that. However I know toshindo, a westernised variant of bujinkan/Ninjitsu is designed so that in some moves in order for you to win the best position over your opponent you give him the idea that he's in a better position. For example someone reaches for you and is punching, striding forwards, all the time your stepping back and looking like your in the defeatable position, yet really your waiting for the moment he has stretched himself into a position so vulnerable - and you are fortified - and thats when you can tip the scales of balance.

If that isnt clear It basically translates as in, in some cases, in order for you to win you must give the impression you are being defeated.

In the land raider game if you kept centered, it wouldnt have mattered if you lost a great deal, for your opponent may have been getting so high on what he's achieved, he may become more prone to making a mistake, and he's unaware of what your setting up turns ahead, the killing blow, the check mate.

In the words of Winston Churchill "Success is not final,Failure is not fatal, Its the courage to continue that counts"

RobK · 9 months ago

As for the original intent of the article, I give Goatboy full marks. Yes, there is something to be said for the en-game where people get sloppy and roll over for their opponent because their favorite unit got rolled or they had bad luck on turn 1. I have, myself, fallen into the trap of bemoaning my fate on turn one, only to eat crow later as the Dice Gods favor my efforts on the later turns.

However.

Goat has apprently made the error known as "Burying the Lead" by posting the particulars of the army and commenting on comp scores. Any army that includes Fabius should have at least one unit of Emperor's Children in it. Using Oblits and tons of Rhinos as moveable mantlets to play LOS games would seem to be less "Hobby" than some BT player dropping termies out of a LR or two. The real problem with using comp scores is that (as we can see by these comments) is it is very subjective. While I personally see nothing wrong with taking a Nurgle list, a lot of people have strong feelings about them. (I feel vindicated after having to suffer through all of the pre-FeelNoPain years, so I play them without guilt. Nyah.)

As for scoring; I like to think the best of people, but I couldn't help but notice the pattern:

Game 1: You won, opponent's list great!
Game 2: You lost, opponent's list "ok", but geared to win.
Game 3: You trounced your opponent, his list was great! ( I have to assume, there was no comment in the article.) You even felt bad about winning so handily.

I'm not implying dishonesty, you may not have even consciously done it. All people are more likely to be gracious in victory.

The least worst solution in this case seems to be a sort of "Rotating Judge". Someone not involved in the game directly should make the determination of a list's "gamesmanship" - how much it is dedicated to WAAC play. One thing that was suggested a few years ago was to have players who did not play directly against you grade your list. A good Idea, but still imperfect.

So, to recap, your original point is well taken. Don't give up and realize that the the Bell Curve will come back around. The bit about the army comp score...open to interpretation and obviously a matter of differing opinions.

nomoreroominhell · 9 months ago

"Any army that includes Fabius should have at least one unit of Emperor's Children in it.!

Should it? I thought Fabius wandered around selling his skills to the highest bidder / whoever he was particularly interested in that day.

Blackknight1239 · 9 months ago

Out of curiousity, what would be a less hard Templar list Goatboy? I play them, and sometimes I do feel the lists I play are just a little too good. I usually run a Raider full of marines, 2 Rhinos filled up too, a vindicator, and a predator. Usually the Emperor's Champ takes the Pref. enemy vow.

I do think he should have got the 3, but I wonder if you shouldn't gotten a little lower? I mean, I think I would have a horrible day playing your list, haha.

Savark · 9 months ago

tempars-go die
nurgle-go die
Bile-I hope you get whats coming to u fast

SonofDorn · 9 months ago

Where to begin? I think that this article would have been far more useful if there was no discussion whatsoever of army composition. It detracts from the subject of the article, and to be honest your army list is not one that I would have fun playing against.

I agree with your assessment of the game, and that giving up is more often than not a disservice to both players. I don't feel that 40k is a very good tournament game to begin with, as GW refuses to update the army books in anything approaching a timely manner. However, when playing in a tournament, you are more likely to be playing someone new, and that is (for me) the fun part of playing games.

I think that the hardest lesson to learn about 40K (or any other game, for that matter) is that winning and playing well aren't the same thing. You can minimize risk, make the best decisions, and put tactics into play that yield the best results possible and still lose because this game is centered around an astounding number of dice rolls each turn.

If you do all that and still lose, you have played well. If you become flustered and give up, or if you make mistakes and blame the other player or dice, then you haven't played well.

I would rather play well than win every game.

As for my problem with your army (if you care to hear it).

I think that your list is efficient, tough, and competitive. Downgrading a few units from the even more competitive version doesn't make this a hobby list, though. You chose models that wouldn't fall back off an objective due to shooting. You chose high toughness, very survivable troops choices (the Plague Marines) and High Strength units that were capable of winning at range and in Close Combat. You took a Daemon Prince with Wings and Warptime. That isn't a hobby HQ choice. Forget Lash, you took a T6 model with wings, a ton of attacks, and re-rolls. You complained about your opponents re-rolls, but your army fields many re-rolls itself. I feel that if you really wanted to challenge yourself as a player you certainly could have come up with something better. You seem to have a great grasp of the mechanics and the tactics involved in playing, and it was disappointing to me to see that you didn't really stretch out beyond your comfort level in this army list.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

I like DP's because they don't auto die. Also, warptime, while a very powerful ability, is only on a unit that is supposed to be a super bad ass, and rolling 1's & 2's suck when you are supposed to be an ascended Chaoslord/sorcerer.

I don't like lords because the threat of easily dying to a powerfist, a fail leadership roll (they don't make a squad fearless), and random other heavy weapons makes for a kinda crap game. We all want our lords/leaders to be bad ass, and I chose the DP so they can survive.

I played a few games with the list, and have watched my DP die a lot. Yeah toughness 6 is a pain for reg weapons, but enough melta pointed at his grotesque head and he falls down.

I guess the area I play at, just plays more competitive lists. Lists that don't find DP's to be all that difficult. Same with most other things in any given army. The changes to 5th with not being able to sweeping advance means this "awesome" guy is going to kill some dudes and then get shot to pieces by most armies. Hell a marine player can throw in one 5 man TH/SS squad and watch the DP eat it. You saw how it died easily to some termies that rolled their inv saves, which is what would happen with TH/SS termies.

Yes, I make tough lists. I've always done that in most games I play. I enjoy competition and I try to bring it as best as I can. At the same time I also like my opponents to bring it too, and thus these articles to help people look at ways to build lists that isn't just a smash up of random guys. I want people to look at units and see what they are supposed to do and what kind of armies can be created to be competitive.

But this isn't the only way to play. This is just how I play and isn't it fair to have people see all the ways to play this game and decided how they want to play. And onto the list, this is also what I had painted, and I've come to the point in the hobby where I only throw down with painted armies. If I had some painted nurgle termies, I would have thrown down with some of them. Hell I am buying some Forgeworld stuff to get some nurgle dreads built up since they sound fun. And how doesn't like to watch nurgle plague marines die to melta fire in the butt haha.

SonofDorn · 9 months ago

Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields...mmmm....especially SALAMANDERS....

I understand playing with what you have worked hard to build and paint. However, my main concern is your statements regarding re-rolls. It is somewhat hypocritical. I don't think that anyone here is saying you had a bad army, they are saying that your army isn't as "hobby" as you seem to think it is. Part of that definitely has to do with the level of play in your area. Part of it has to do with complaining about an opponent's re-rolls while over half the models in your army have re-rolls of their own.

I also feel that I should thank and congratulate you on maintaining a civil tone in this thread. Having read through it I found a great deal of name calling and immaturity. It isn't easy to defend yourself when critics resort to those tactics.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

The big issue with 40k and rerolls just breaks the normal luck of a dice based game.

I feel FNP isn't as bad on one wound models because it isn't killing your opponent with the reroll. Yeah it is letting you survive to fight another round, but in the end it isn't killing your opponent. When you are getting a better chance to kill your opponent as well as stack the odds against him to fail armor saves etc, due to hitting more, it becomes a problem. Rerolls are great on one guy. Or just one squad that is supposed to be bad ass as well as expensive. When you start to put it on an entire army, is when you have issues.

Anything that covers an entire army breaks the game mechanics a bit. I still say that with FNP, an entire army with it, is also something that isn't too fun. Thus the talk of moving one squad to Plague Marines and putting in just reg CSM with different marks in a continuation of the army.

Hobby and Heavy is such an annoying set of rules. The basic rules means you can build whatever army is available. If the rules allow it, you should be able to play it. There is no cheese, just good army list writing. if you don't want to play x models, because you feel they are unfair, then that is fine, it is your choice etc. But if your opponent wants to play them too, it is their choice too.

And thanks for complement at the end. If most of these people met me and played me, they would see I am not this uber cheesehead gamer. I only bring the pain when the tournament sets it up or I'm testing with other "cheese" armies. I know I build hard lists, but I don't have to win, I just want to build something that is competitive and won't be knocked on its butt so easily. If a list is too hard, I don't bring it to any normal game playing day. Most of the time, I bring test stuff that I just painted up.

But enough of that, the internet makes jerks out of people, and I know that most of the time the commenters wouldn't say anything to me if they met me face to face. Just like I wouldn't hold it against them if I met them at any one time. It is just the net and people get really into the game just like I do.

CountEnescu · 9 months ago

I hate this Heavy, not Heavy dichotomy. I mean, no two people seem to have an idea of what's dicey, what's not. I would stipulate that a DP with Warptime is as dicey as almost anything in a list, with the exception of dual Lash as that's the single most hurtful exploit to play against in this game.
Goatboy says that things that grant rerolls are hurtful to the game. Warptime anyone? You could run the DP without warptime. You chose not too. Because you made a choice on how hard you wanted that model to be. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with your choice. I disagree with your desire to claim a sort of hobbyist superiority because you decided to not run two Warptime princes.
I also don't like the way that Orks are portrayed as a heavy-only list. The fact is, Orks are the most fun army in 40k fluff wise in my opinion. I played Orks through the last iteration of the codex. They have some of the coolest models in the bike, truk and battlewagon. But they can't be played in a hobby tourney? Really? I understand that the rules for complex models make nob bikerz a horribe unit. Just like lash princes are horrible. But where do we draw the line. Goatboy suggests by insinuation that the line cannot include Orks as no one chose to show up with Orks. Why does it not include Warptime princes? Why is there a suggestion of whether or not it includes LR's or BT's? Why does it not include Obliterators? Does it include T-Hammers and S-Shields? Does it include Plague Marines? If it begins to include Warptime princes and Nurgle Marines and obliterators. . . maybe those things cannot be played anymore in a "hobby" game, whatever that is. Who gets to decide what's "beardy"? Goatboy's definition certainly doesn't seem to mesh with the others in this board. I know that it doesn't mesh with mine.

Goatboy · 9 months ago

Warptime on one dude is not nearly as bad, since the dude is supposed to be super bad ass. Warptime on a bunch of dudes, is a bit unfair.

I think orks are fun too, it is one of the few armies that has like 4 or 5 really competitive builds, as well as a ton of fun stuff (shokk attack gun is neat). They get hampered by the fact that a lot of armies just take too long to play, and when you throw in, inexperienced players, they do not work well for a tournament setting. We have had players that really can't finish a game, and it hurts since it can easily effect the outcome when you can't go get an objective. Thus the lack of orks.

I would have played them, since I have a large horde painted, but most people don't like to throw down with orks. I think the sheer amount of "ork hate" is kinda crap. But oh well. Next army (after marines and other random crap) is a cool ork bullet of steam powered goodness. Something about ork powered robots makes me laugh inside hah.

nomoreroominhell · 9 months ago

Goatboy, I dare you to make a list that's completely different to what you usually play and take it to a hobby tournament. Put a bunch of "non competitive" units in there, the ones that you usually dismiss as not being worth their points compared to the power builds. Approach it with the idea that every battle is a chance to win against overwhelming odds, attempting to minimise the flaws of your units while maximising their strengths.

It'd be an interesting and quite possibly fun exercise.

Arachne · 9 months ago

Really good last few points.
What can honestly define a "hobby" list? Can any one person do it without being biased? Can any two people do it?
You cant. The meaning you attach to "hobby" is entirely subjective. Entirely based to one persons point of view.
Even if you get a group of individuals to agree on a central list of "do's and donts for a hobby tournament" there may be another group of individuals who disagree.
Therefore I have to concur that calling the templar list "tournament" and yours "non tournament" is not the case because really - your list has been configured to be competitive and so is his.

If a hobby tournament is to be totally for fun, totally un-preconfigured, I think you should really be letting the dice decide randomly what units you have.

In the end, whether youve got a competitve list or not, whether your walked over or kick someones ass, whether your in a serious or non serious game - you can do all of it in fun.

Ferro · 9 months ago

Alright guys. I'm Michael, the nid player who got 'trounced.' Goat's list was very tough, and he's a skilled player. I lost that game harder than any I've ever played. But it's not cause Goat's list is too hard, I just F*ed up. A couple revalent points: 1) after a long absence, I've only starting playing 40k again last year, 2) I'm still learning how to play my army in 5th ed, 3) this was my first Hobby Tourney, 4) I've only played against Chaos a couple times.

My list was my interpretation of Hobby: CC Winged Tyrant, a maxed out CC Fex, Dakka Fex, Warrior support, loads of guants, two units of flanking stealers, and a lictor. I tried to take it easy, since I usually go with as many fexes as possible.

I did what I always do...try to get the charge as soon as possible. I did not anticipate how serious a threat his shooting was, and in his first turn he had all three of my MC's down to about two wounds each (I rolled some statistically impossible crap!). I got the 2nd turn charge, but lost all three creatures. After that, I had nothing that could seriously threaten him. He rolled right through me. What are 20 spinegaunts gunna do? Well you know what... I didn't give up! I charged him with multiple units, threw everything I had at him. It was sad, but frankly hilarious too. He's a great guy and fun to play against.

I learned several valuable lessons that game, and I hope I hope I hope to get paired against him in the next Heavy Tourney, cause that's a list I know how to build :)

Never give up!!