Bell of Lost Souls - Latest Comments in Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

LEGION3000 — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:50:24 -0000

If you don't slop it on you wont get a dry ring. Apply it like you would any detail paint.

Also there are some times when you want white to be white and not just a lighter shade of beige so you can't use any kind of brown.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

LEGION3000 — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:45:56 -0000

I have to agree with that. I recall a droptroop IG vs Eldar game where the guard were getting raped in combat all over the board until on tiny unit of 5 guys charged 5 fire dragons and wiped them out. Good Times.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Goatboy — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:14:59 -0000

The big issue with 40k and rerolls just breaks the normal luck of a dice based game.

I feel FNP isn't as bad on one wound models because it isn't killing your opponent with the reroll. Yeah it is letting you survive to fight another round, but in the end it isn't killing your opponent. When you are getting a better chance to kill your opponent as well as stack the odds against him to fail armor saves etc, due to hitting more, it becomes a problem. Rerolls are great on one guy. Or just one squad that is supposed to be bad ass as well as expensive. When you start to put it on an entire army, is when you have issues.

Anything that covers an entire army breaks the game mechanics a bit. I still say that with FNP, an entire army with it, is also something that isn't too fun. Thus the talk of moving one squad to Plague Marines and putting in just reg CSM with different marks in a continuation of the army.

Hobby and Heavy is such an annoying set of rules. The basic rules means you can build whatever army is available. If the rules allow it, you should be able to play it. There is no cheese, just good army list writing. if you don't want to play x models, because you feel they are unfair, then that is fine, it is your choice etc. But if your opponent wants to play them too, it is their choice too.

And thanks for complement at the end. If most of these people met me and played me, they would see I am not this uber cheesehead gamer. I only bring the pain when the tournament sets it up or I'm testing with other "cheese" armies. I know I build hard lists, but I don't have to win, I just want to build something that is competitive and won't be knocked on its butt so easily. If a list is too hard, I don't bring it to any normal game playing day. Most of the time, I bring test stuff that I just painted up.

But enough of that, the internet makes jerks out of people, and I know that most of the time the commenters wouldn't say anything to me if they met me face to face. Just like I wouldn't hold it against them if I met them at any one time. It is just the net and people get really into the game just like I do.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

SonofDorn — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 06:17:21 -0000

Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields...mmmm....especially SALAMANDERS....

I understand playing with what you have worked hard to build and paint. However, my main concern is your statements regarding re-rolls. It is somewhat hypocritical. I don't think that anyone here is saying you had a bad army, they are saying that your army isn't as "hobby" as you seem to think it is. Part of that definitely has to do with the level of play in your area. Part of it has to do with complaining about an opponent's re-rolls while over half the models in your army have re-rolls of their own.

I also feel that I should thank and congratulate you on maintaining a civil tone in this thread. Having read through it I found a great deal of name calling and immaturity. It isn't easy to defend yourself when critics resort to those tactics.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Goatboy — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:04:27 -0000

Warptime on one dude is not nearly as bad, since the dude is supposed to be super bad ass. Warptime on a bunch of dudes, is a bit unfair.

I think orks are fun too, it is one of the few armies that has like 4 or 5 really competitive builds, as well as a ton of fun stuff (shokk attack gun is neat). They get hampered by the fact that a lot of armies just take too long to play, and when you throw in, inexperienced players, they do not work well for a tournament setting. We have had players that really can't finish a game, and it hurts since it can easily effect the outcome when you can't go get an objective. Thus the lack of orks.

I would have played them, since I have a large horde painted, but most people don't like to throw down with orks. I think the sheer amount of "ork hate" is kinda crap. But oh well. Next army (after marines and other random crap) is a cool ork bullet of steam powered goodness. Something about ork powered robots makes me laugh inside hah.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Goatboy — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:01:15 -0000

I like DP's because they don't auto die. Also, warptime, while a very powerful ability, is only on a unit that is supposed to be a super bad ass, and rolling 1's & 2's suck when you are supposed to be an ascended Chaoslord/sorcerer.

I don't like lords because the threat of easily dying to a powerfist, a fail leadership roll (they don't make a squad fearless), and random other heavy weapons makes for a kinda crap game. We all want our lords/leaders to be bad ass, and I chose the DP so they can survive.

I played a few games with the list, and have watched my DP die a lot. Yeah toughness 6 is a pain for reg weapons, but enough melta pointed at his grotesque head and he falls down.

I guess the area I play at, just plays more competitive lists. Lists that don't find DP's to be all that difficult. Same with most other things in any given army. The changes to 5th with not being able to sweeping advance means this "awesome" guy is going to kill some dudes and then get shot to pieces by most armies. Hell a marine player can throw in one 5 man TH/SS squad and watch the DP eat it. You saw how it died easily to some termies that rolled their inv saves, which is what would happen with TH/SS termies.

Yes, I make tough lists. I've always done that in most games I play. I enjoy competition and I try to bring it as best as I can. At the same time I also like my opponents to bring it too, and thus these articles to help people look at ways to build lists that isn't just a smash up of random guys. I want people to look at units and see what they are supposed to do and what kind of armies can be created to be competitive.

But this isn't the only way to play. This is just how I play and isn't it fair to have people see all the ways to play this game and decided how they want to play. And onto the list, this is also what I had painted, and I've come to the point in the hobby where I only throw down with painted armies. If I had some painted nurgle termies, I would have thrown down with some of them. Hell I am buying some Forgeworld stuff to get some nurgle dreads built up since they sound fun. And how doesn't like to watch nurgle plague marines die to melta fire in the butt haha.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Ferro — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:32:03 -0000

Alright guys. I'm Michael, the nid player who got 'trounced.' Goat's list was very tough, and he's a skilled player. I lost that game harder than any I've ever played. But it's not cause Goat's list is too hard, I just F*ed up. A couple revalent points: 1) after a long absence, I've only starting playing 40k again last year, 2) I'm still learning how to play my army in 5th ed, 3) this was my first Hobby Tourney, 4) I've only played against Chaos a couple times.

My list was my interpretation of Hobby: CC Winged Tyrant, a maxed out CC Fex, Dakka Fex, Warrior support, loads of guants, two units of flanking stealers, and a lictor. I tried to take it easy, since I usually go with as many fexes as possible.

I did what I always do...try to get the charge as soon as possible. I did not anticipate how serious a threat his shooting was, and in his first turn he had all three of my MC's down to about two wounds each (I rolled some statistically impossible crap!). I got the 2nd turn charge, but lost all three creatures. After that, I had nothing that could seriously threaten him. He rolled right through me. What are 20 spinegaunts gunna do? Well you know what... I didn't give up! I charged him with multiple units, threw everything I had at him. It was sad, but frankly hilarious too. He's a great guy and fun to play against.

I learned several valuable lessons that game, and I hope I hope I hope to get paired against him in the next Heavy Tourney, cause that's a list I know how to build :)

Never give up!!

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Arachne — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:24:24 -0000

Really good last few points.
What can honestly define a "hobby" list? Can any one person do it without being biased? Can any two people do it?
You cant. The meaning you attach to "hobby" is entirely subjective. Entirely based to one persons point of view.
Even if you get a group of individuals to agree on a central list of "do's and donts for a hobby tournament" there may be another group of individuals who disagree.
Therefore I have to concur that calling the templar list "tournament" and yours "non tournament" is not the case because really - your list has been configured to be competitive and so is his.

If a hobby tournament is to be totally for fun, totally un-preconfigured, I think you should really be letting the dice decide randomly what units you have.

In the end, whether youve got a competitve list or not, whether your walked over or kick someones ass, whether your in a serious or non serious game - you can do all of it in fun.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

nomoreroominhell — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:08:29 -0000

Goatboy, I dare you to make a list that's completely different to what you usually play and take it to a hobby tournament. Put a bunch of "non competitive" units in there, the ones that you usually dismiss as not being worth their points compared to the power builds. Approach it with the idea that every battle is a chance to win against overwhelming odds, attempting to minimise the flaws of your units while maximising their strengths.

It'd be an interesting and quite possibly fun exercise.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

nomoreroominhell — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:58:04 -0000

"Any army that includes Fabius should have at least one unit of Emperor's Children in it.!

Should it? I thought Fabius wandered around selling his skills to the highest bidder / whoever he was particularly interested in that day.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Myrmidon — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:45:14 -0000

As to the Rhino walls - I can easily see its application as a solid 'in game' tactic. Where people have problems with it is that GW has always to a certain extent sold the game as sort of a 'pulp sci-fi' / picture yourself as the main hero sort of escapism that goes hand in glove with 'willing suspension of disbelief'. (Willing suspension of disbelief = why no one ever asks why the hell there's a chasm in the middle of the damn Death Star, much less why Luke happens to have a rope and grapple on his belt...) And few things in the game are more effective at breaking that 'escapism' sort of mood than 'rules base tactics that break willing suspension of disbelief'. About the only form of gaming where the phrase "Quick - circle the Rhinos!" works is old westerns - or if one is playing the IG and under attack by Feral Orks. (Dez Gone Native.) There are just certain things everyone knows - Bruce Willis would never be caught dead circling the Rhinos, and Elvis would never be caught dead carrying a plasma pistol.

As for the melta guns, I suppose that could make for a whole interesting article and/or group poll as to what / where the breaking point is for fluff vs excessive firepower.

And as for your Daemon Prince - I know more than a few players who would have been overjoyed by the simple fact that there weren't two who both miraculously happened to have the 'Lash'.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

CountEnescu — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:14:18 -0000

I hate this Heavy, not Heavy dichotomy. I mean, no two people seem to have an idea of what's dicey, what's not. I would stipulate that a DP with Warptime is as dicey as almost anything in a list, with the exception of dual Lash as that's the single most hurtful exploit to play against in this game.
Goatboy says that things that grant rerolls are hurtful to the game. Warptime anyone? You could run the DP without warptime. You chose not too. Because you made a choice on how hard you wanted that model to be. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with your choice. I disagree with your desire to claim a sort of hobbyist superiority because you decided to not run two Warptime princes.
I also don't like the way that Orks are portrayed as a heavy-only list. The fact is, Orks are the most fun army in 40k fluff wise in my opinion. I played Orks through the last iteration of the codex. They have some of the coolest models in the bike, truk and battlewagon. But they can't be played in a hobby tourney? Really? I understand that the rules for complex models make nob bikerz a horribe unit. Just like lash princes are horrible. But where do we draw the line. Goatboy suggests by insinuation that the line cannot include Orks as no one chose to show up with Orks. Why does it not include Warptime princes? Why is there a suggestion of whether or not it includes LR's or BT's? Why does it not include Obliterators? Does it include T-Hammers and S-Shields? Does it include Plague Marines? If it begins to include Warptime princes and Nurgle Marines and obliterators. . . maybe those things cannot be played anymore in a "hobby" game, whatever that is. Who gets to decide what's "beardy"? Goatboy's definition certainly doesn't seem to mesh with the others in this board. I know that it doesn't mesh with mine.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Myrmidon — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:00:32 -0000

Pictures or it didn't happen! (Sorry, Blackheart moment there.) I'd love to see a link if you've got pics of any your recently painted stuff. I was just teaching a new gamer some of the basics of painting and was telling him about your 'Pinky the Librarian' mini. :)

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

SonofDorn — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 04:51:12 -0000

Where to begin? I think that this article would have been far more useful if there was no discussion whatsoever of army composition. It detracts from the subject of the article, and to be honest your army list is not one that I would have fun playing against.

I agree with your assessment of the game, and that giving up is more often than not a disservice to both players. I don't feel that 40k is a very good tournament game to begin with, as GW refuses to update the army books in anything approaching a timely manner. However, when playing in a tournament, you are more likely to be playing someone new, and that is (for me) the fun part of playing games.

I think that the hardest lesson to learn about 40K (or any other game, for that matter) is that winning and playing well aren't the same thing. You can minimize risk, make the best decisions, and put tactics into play that yield the best results possible and still lose because this game is centered around an astounding number of dice rolls each turn.

If you do all that and still lose, you have played well. If you become flustered and give up, or if you make mistakes and blame the other player or dice, then you haven't played well.

I would rather play well than win every game.

As for my problem with your army (if you care to hear it).

I think that your list is efficient, tough, and competitive. Downgrading a few units from the even more competitive version doesn't make this a hobby list, though. You chose models that wouldn't fall back off an objective due to shooting. You chose high toughness, very survivable troops choices (the Plague Marines) and High Strength units that were capable of winning at range and in Close Combat. You took a Daemon Prince with Wings and Warptime. That isn't a hobby HQ choice. Forget Lash, you took a T6 model with wings, a ton of attacks, and re-rolls. You complained about your opponents re-rolls, but your army fields many re-rolls itself. I feel that if you really wanted to challenge yourself as a player you certainly could have come up with something better. You seem to have a great grasp of the mechanics and the tactics involved in playing, and it was disappointing to me to see that you didn't really stretch out beyond your comfort level in this army list.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Savark — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:02:00 -0000

tempars-go die
nurgle-go die
Bile-I hope you get whats coming to u fast

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Blackknight1239 — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:55:47 -0000

Out of curiousity, what would be a less hard Templar list Goatboy? I play them, and sometimes I do feel the lists I play are just a little too good. I usually run a Raider full of marines, 2 Rhinos filled up too, a vindicator, and a predator. Usually the Emperor's Champ takes the Pref. enemy vow.

I do think he should have got the 3, but I wonder if you shouldn't gotten a little lower? I mean, I think I would have a horrible day playing your list, haha.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

RobK — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:31:12 -0000

As for the original intent of the article, I give Goatboy full marks. Yes, there is something to be said for the en-game where people get sloppy and roll over for their opponent because their favorite unit got rolled or they had bad luck on turn 1. I have, myself, fallen into the trap of bemoaning my fate on turn one, only to eat crow later as the Dice Gods favor my efforts on the later turns.

However.

Goat has apprently made the error known as "Burying the Lead" by posting the particulars of the army and commenting on comp scores. Any army that includes Fabius should have at least one unit of Emperor's Children in it. Using Oblits and tons of Rhinos as moveable mantlets to play LOS games would seem to be less "Hobby" than some BT player dropping termies out of a LR or two. The real problem with using comp scores is that (as we can see by these comments) is it is very subjective. While I personally see nothing wrong with taking a Nurgle list, a lot of people have strong feelings about them. (I feel vindicated after having to suffer through all of the pre-FeelNoPain years, so I play them without guilt. Nyah.)

As for scoring; I like to think the best of people, but I couldn't help but notice the pattern:

Game 1: You won, opponent's list great!
Game 2: You lost, opponent's list "ok", but geared to win.
Game 3: You trounced your opponent, his list was great! ( I have to assume, there was no comment in the article.) You even felt bad about winning so handily.

I'm not implying dishonesty, you may not have even consciously done it. All people are more likely to be gracious in victory.

The least worst solution in this case seems to be a sort of "Rotating Judge". Someone not involved in the game directly should make the determination of a list's "gamesmanship" - how much it is dedicated to WAAC play. One thing that was suggested a few years ago was to have players who did not play directly against you grade your list. A good Idea, but still imperfect.

So, to recap, your original point is well taken. Don't give up and realize that the the Bell Curve will come back around. The bit about the army comp score...open to interpretation and obviously a matter of differing opinions.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Arachne — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:23:27 -0000

Good points Goat. You really do kick things off.

Dont defeat yourself before you've begun.

Theres nothing wrong with giving the impression of defeat either. I mean some games are total walk overs and not much can be done to remedy that. However I know toshindo, a westernised variant of bujinkan/Ninjitsu is designed so that in some moves in order for you to win the best position over your opponent you give him the idea that he's in a better position. For example someone reaches for you and is punching, striding forwards, all the time your stepping back and looking like your in the defeatable position, yet really your waiting for the moment he has stretched himself into a position so vulnerable - and you are fortified - and thats when you can tip the scales of balance.

If that isnt clear It basically translates as in, in some cases, in order for you to win you must give the impression you are being defeated.

In the land raider game if you kept centered, it wouldnt have mattered if you lost a great deal, for your opponent may have been getting so high on what he's achieved, he may become more prone to making a mistake, and he's unaware of what your setting up turns ahead, the killing blow, the check mate.

In the words of Winston Churchill "Success is not final,Failure is not fatal, Its the courage to continue that counts"

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

John Stiening — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:08:43 -0000

That is uncalled for biteme. Goatman posts a lot of really good content, and does a lot to make BoLS interesting to us all.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Goatboy — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:05:11 -0000

I would rather win by tactics, not by you forgetting something that is pretty obvious. We all forget from time to time, and it is just a game. I let people go back and move stuff if they forgot etc. Now if you are a crap head, I won't be as nice haha. But I rarely have played a real crap head.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Arachne — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:00:54 -0000

Goats posts may not be perfect, but a genius is measured by his originality, not perfection.
People are judged by what they create, not what they can moan about!

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Veahirin — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:59:17 -0000

here here, good tactics isn't being cheesy

-V

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

widowscar — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:57:24 -0000

it would only be really good for the termies, not against them. In the context of that game, a 10 man crusader squad even with re rolls isn't as hard as a decent plague marine unit. Sure, there'll be 2 with good weapons but the normal plods are still only wounding on 5s and the unit would only have 20 nattacks in this case due to blight. Say 2 have power fists, that's 16 ws4, s4, i4 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds then 3+ armour, 4+ FNP, 1 dead statistically, then 2 ws4, s8, i1 no save attack, let's say they both hit, wound and kill. 3 dead in total. Plague marines would have 16 [would be 18 but one died at i4] s4, ws4, i3 attacks, that's 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 dead. The champ has 2 ws4, s8, i1 attacks, say he kills 1. In future rounds the new wound allocation rules mean the BT fists are at more risk than the champ so if no other unit intervened, the Plaguemarines would prob win as I said. Combat wasn't horrifically in favour of the templars due to a re roll. Probably would end a draw, but these mock up stats obviously don't account for shooting casualties prior to assault on either side etc

I agree that against weaker opposition the free attack, as it effectively is, is priceless, no argument there whatsoever.

you do that same scenario above with termies charging and they'd thrash almost anyone, which is why i said it was really useful for them above any others.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

John Stiening — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:55:33 -0000

kudos on the nail polish. I hadn't thought of that.

Re: Goatboy's 40k Thought: NEVER SURRENDER!!!

Goatboy — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:42:52 -0000

It might be worthwhile to mix half badab and the blue together to get a nice dark blue, that isn't too strong of a blue to overpower the grey.

But thanks for the info, I always like to mess with new stuff :).