I showed up to my FLGS for my very first game of 40k with 1000 points worth of space marines (two boxes of AoBR), but my opponent wanted to play at 1750 points, so he loaned me three of his Land Raiders.
He crushed me. First of all, I was still trying to grasp the rules, and would do things like fire only one weapon off of a LR or a dreadnought. I played the whole game without adding in the extra attack for charging, or the extra shot for rapid fire range, and rolling 1d6 to move through cover. I know at one point I shot at his tanks with some bolt guns, and never even considered running up to his tank to hit it with a power fist (punching a tank? really? it took a while to realize that this was actually a good idea). And my opponent spent the whole game gloating over his crushing victory, never stopping to let me know that I was playing the game wrong.
(I later learned that he was a terrible player and hadn't won a game in weeks, which is why he jumped on the new player, thinking I was an easy target.)
Thankfully another player took me under his wing after that and taught me how to play the game properly, otherwise I probably would have never come back.
Anotheromyous
· 4 months ago
Some want to win at all cost. And winning against someone new to the hobby and new to his army, what to gain from it except looking like a douchebag? Geez I really can't understand some people...
RealGenius
· 4 months ago
Douche of the Year nominee?
Oh, here, use these Land Raiders. But I'm not going to help you learn or play better or anything like that.
Well, good for him-- now you know who to avoid next time. Picking the right opponent is a very important part of the hobby when you are playing pick-up/friendly games.
Firaya
· 4 months ago
Wow, that's really lame. Even though I insist on playing to the best in any game, against players who are just learning or relearning the rules after a long break, I'd ask questions to help them.
"Do you know you can't assault after rapid firing?" Especially when it's obvious he wants to charge. "Why do you roll only one dice moving across terrain?" This would be a simple question in your case.
I won't point out strategies and such during a game, only rules reminders and such. After the game however, depending on the time I insist on discussing strategies or pointing out good/bad moves throughout the game. This is where I believe a newer player truly learns, as he will remember his strategic mistakes clearly and how to avoid them.
Trve
· 4 months ago
"Yeah it might not be the smartest thing to do, but this is a game of plastic guys, so winning here really isn’t that important as making sure you both have a fun time in the grand scheme of things."
Sweet merciful tap dancing Christ on a stick YES! For God's sake, youre pushing plastic toy soldiers around a table and rolling dice. Anyone who takes it 100% seriously and goes out to win at all costs all the time needs to get a grip.
LordSandwich
· 4 months ago
Not if both players are having fun while doing so. But, yes, fun first.
Fixer
· 4 months ago
I agree with the sentiments here. Some armies are so streamlined and minimaxed that there's almost no weaknesses to be exploited by clever play or actual strategy, throwing them up against a themed or fun army list which has been built around models/characters ends up as a simple curb stomp battle.
A couple of themed lists can be a lot more fun. When your forces has actual weaknesses that can exploited and your opponent has too. When some of the more outlandish units can have their moment in the limelight because there are enemy targets they can actually harm.
Unfortunately this is not the view of everyone. A while back on Warseer I asked a WAAC player that if a new army list came out with a super-unit that completely unbalanced the game and meant that his own personal favourite army automatically lost against them, should everyone be forced to play that army to enjoy the game? His reply was yes, and that was the entire point of the game and that anyone else that didn't play it that way was wrong.
To follow up on that, I will quote a famous science fiction author:
"The game's the thing...The fun is what matters, not the victory. To glory in the defeat of another, to need that purchased pride, is to show you are incomplete and inadequate to start with." ~Iain M. Banks
Vampire Harlequin
· 4 months ago
I like Firaya's point.Competitive play should be a dirty word. Err...words. Sometimes the gloves are off and it's a no mercy game in which someone wants to pit their skill, tactics and big shiney killey units against someone who's gonna put up a fight. The most relevant point that Goat-boy made is that it depends on the opponent. Two equally skilled opponents pitting their finest force-building and army-commanding abilities against each other has a drama and enjoyment factor of it's own. If that's how they wanna play fine. They're both conscenting adults, and what they do during their bouts of warhammer should not be judged by others. It's as natural as any other kind of wargaming, Billy.
Unless they're joyless, ultra-competitive, pedantic rule-lawyer-ing win-mongers. In which case point and laugh, wash, rinse and repeat.
WES
· 4 months ago
True, one sided slaughterfests aren't much fun... especially charging a static shooty army. But that doesn't guarantee a win... in one of my most memorable tournament games, I'd lost 2/3rds of my army by turn 4... I don't think my opponent moved more then 1 unit during those 4 turns. He literally lined his guys up in straight lines.
Unfortunately, for him, it was a take and hold objective with the marker in the middle of the map. I'd spent 4 turns charging across open ground being shot to death. My surviving 1/3rd was packed around that objective. I saw him pick up the mission briefing, read it... and it finally dawned on him. He tried rushing his command squad out in a rhino, and my chaos lord singlehandedly smacked down the whole squad and sent them running. He lost, and all the models he'd killed didn't amount to a hill of beans.
Sometimes, when people get obsessed about killing models, they forget special scenarios, or victory conditions.
TheDude
· 4 months ago
Agreed, Epic does actually stand up to a competative / tournament-style approach (although it can be played 'soft' too) in a way that makes Warhammer 40,000 look like a complete mess.
Warhammer 40,000 isn't designed to withstand competative play, it's designed to be loosely balanced at best, and played by kids 11-14.
TheDude
· 4 months ago
Oops I meant to reply to TheRealChris above, not post a new comment.
Gringo
· 4 months ago
One of my regular opponents and I regularly play power armies to try and out-beard each other.
Our battles have seen all sorts of attrocities commited against 'The Spirit of the Game', but i wouldn't dare field one of those armies against an unwitting opponent. It just wouldn't be fun.
Against anyone other than this guy and i'd take a sensible, fairly balanced list and be happy to take on all-comers with the assumption that whoever they are, they're going into the game with the same mindset.
I don't see anything wrong with power gaming as long as your opponent is planning the same. If someone sneaks up on me with an uber-list and doesn't see anything wrong with it, they're only going to play me the once.
B_Steele
· 4 months ago
Goatboy, this article single-handedly changed my otherwise negative views upon the guys behind the scenes at BoLS.
I tip my hat to you, sir.
Grand Master Iapetus
· 4 months ago
Your evil ploy will not work Goatboy - we will not be lured into your "nice, nice" trap only to be crushed like insects ;)
But seriously - it isn't any fun to crush your opponent game after game after game. If they are not a worthy opponent, what did you prove by crushing them into the dirt other than the fact that you are actually a bigger DORK than they are? Army build that a 10 year old with NO strategy whatsoever can win with don't prove anything about your generalship. The best games are CHALLENGING - win, lose or draw.
I think there are several things you can do they break down into 3 categories: FOC, Mission, Fluff
FOC: We assign points value limits and org limits, what about having to buy one of every slot before doubling up? Or you could put a 0-1 on EVERY unit type.
In Apoc - you HAVE to balance out the superheavy equasion - not neccisarily 1:1 for model count...
Mission: Pick something other than the standard 3x3 "roll-a-mission". Once upon a time, there was a big GREEN rulebook that had TONS of missions in it. Anybody bother breaking that thing open lately? (Planetstrike may go a long way to mixing this up).
One of my favorites - put everything in reserve, and not only roll for it to come on the table, but break the table into 6 edges and roll for random edge entry.
Lots of other stuff you can do to keep it fresh...
Fluff: Certainly last but not least...for me, this is at least 1/2 the reason I started playing. You get the creativity and storyline of the RPGs without all the hyper detail of RPGs (taking 1 hour in real time for 10 min game time, or trying to determine if the direction and mass of the arrow could penetrate leather armor from a certain distance....) And a suitably complex gaming system without being to monolithically pedantic or complex...
Rolling the standard missions sometimes lacks a bit of Pathos...pick a battle and try and recreate it. Bring the units that you know were historically there.
If you don't care about the 40K history - try playing something else...
Andy
· 4 months ago
Wow, an entire article without plaguemarines!
Goatboy, you are improving.
Norsehawk
· 4 months ago
Who do you think is driving that Vindicator?
TheRealChris
· 4 months ago
Its the wrong system to play that way in. Appart from traditional stuff like chess and go there are many many wargames out there that you can do that with and it is a fun game.
The obvious candidate that gets some coverage here is Epic Armegedon. In the tourney a couple of weeks back each of the top five races were different.
But thats because it was designed ground up with a specific scenario and army lists for 'tournament' - where you wish to win at all costs - style gaming.
40k is a skirmish game endlessly tinkered with to become a company level game with many many exploits and fiddly bits. Its just not suited to that style of play unless everyone knows before hand thats the point. For 'pick up and play' its awful and I'm sure causes no end of strife and dissapointments. Its not helped by some many 'official' armies being a bit pants, not the best of models for those that wish to play the local demon.
TheDude
· 4 months ago
Epic is designed for 'soft' or scenario play too, the rulebook makes it clear that the 'tournament' style is only one of many ways to play the game.
But the 'tournament' style game is indeed really balanced across all the army lists and list styles available, unlike Warhammer 40,000 which is only really balanced when played 'soft'.
*playing the game well* is the most important factor in winning in a competative game of Epic, not *writing your army list well*.
Lerra
· 4 months ago
I would argue that the balance in 40k isn't actually that bad. Even the worst codices do okay in tournaments - they don't take 1st place very often, but they will still win games against tournament lists at a pretty decent rate. At the last stage of the GT, I saw a Necron player get 27th out of 100 (the top Necron player), and people were using that as an example of how Necrons are terrible. I see it a bit differently. If a player using the worst codex manages to get into the last stage of the GT and also do pretty well (think of how many people he had to beat to get that far) the balance can't be THAT bad.
I play Dark Angels, which some people consider to be one of the underpowered codices right now (and I would agree), but it's still playable in a competitive setting, which is better than a lot of games.
Dvastator
· 4 months ago
Fun is why I play Scaven in Fantasy. When you kill off half of your own unit trying to kill a enemy unit because of bad rolls, you can just play it off and say you meant to do that.
Myu
· 4 months ago
Scaven FTW!
Anotheromyous
· 4 months ago
Well, for the moment at least. Soon the Skaven will have their new armybook and we'll see if they stay goofy and fun or becomes über-competitive like Demons or WoC
DMK
· 4 months ago
Agreed. My current pet peeve tactic is when people just decide to put everything in reserve if they don't get 1st turn. It is no fun for anyone, makes the game really only 3+ turns long.
Havik110
· 4 months ago
if you are playing de you have no choice but to reserver everything or watch all your raiders hit the dirt as soon as they get shot...
Dutch Vigilante
· 4 months ago
Thats a silly tactic, in my opinion, makes your forces come trickling in, easier to blast them. Or for us Orky players, to get across the board and get into CC. Also, master of the fleet.
RealGenius
· 4 months ago
With the change to reserve rolls, Master of the Fleet can actually help your force come in later/more together.
Martin
· 4 months ago
Try 500 points a side (Apply all force selection rules properly). On an 8*6 board, *loaded* with terrain. Bigger boards, smaller forces, better players, more fun...
RexScarlet
· 4 months ago
More Terrain, yes.
Bigger board; ok. If you start "no more" than 24" apart. Many times I have seen players setting-up long ways on a 6x4 board (48" apart), only to come back during turn 4 to see one player has been shot to pieces, even though they were trying to have fun, and to no fault of either player, some armies are just better at range than others. It is hard to cross “no man’s land” 48” when your troops only move 6” (plus run D6).
Both of the above together; sure.
Less points; nope. Many Armies, fun list or not, are much worse/better than others at 500 points, especially with minimums required. Unless scenario driven.
Scenarios, scenarios, scenarios...
GW games are like a "cold war" build-up. If your country can afford 10,000 tanks, and your opponents’ country can afford 10,000 tanks and ONE Nuke, he will win, period, to no fault of your opponent, if Nukes are allowed.
I believe this blog should be called; Let’s have fun “Opponents” dang it!
Kahoolin
· 4 months ago
Hey man you just described how I always play. If my opponent is young or new or has a build that can't compete with mine for whatever reason I usually stay just a tiny bit ahead of them, making my troops act in a cool action movie way (hopeless/heroic charges, etc). It's much more fun for everyone I find if there's heavy casualties on both sides, and if it's obvious who's going to win anyway then there's very little fun in winning I reckon, so you may as well play for the other reason (i.e. fun).
Only trouble is now I can't turn it off... so even in tourneys I let my opponent get away with stuff if it looks like they aren't having fun. Needless to say in competitive settings I don't win much.
Dr Henry Killinger
· 4 months ago
I did a similar thing once. I had my Chaos Marines in store and went up against a kid who wanted to try out his new Tyranids. It was a six hundred point battle. I purposefully deployed badly (squads far appart) and sent my Chaos Lord off on his own down the middle of the table. Despite this, I still wiped out his army for the loss of only a single marine. I felt terrible, but we all agreed afterward that his army composition made it difficult for him to win.
RiotMan
· 4 months ago
It comes down to this. If you can't have fun with the game Win or loose than you need to step back and examine what your motivations are. Also if your building tailor made exploitive lists (aka %99.999992 of all tourny lists exploit what is broken about their army to the exclusion of all else) just to win without contest and stroke your ego. than you need to relax, Exploiting rules and pissing off people in a game with as many plot holes and rule conflicts as GW normally has won't win you any friends. and ultimately will sour the opinion of everyone around you that you end up not having any opponents.
Scenarios, stories and campaigns are more exciting IMHO than slugfests of the same bloody list you see every week.
Firaya
· 4 months ago
"This leads to my number two thing, don’t be a jerk. If you know your army seems to be too tough, do something stupid. Give them something to kill. Nothing is worse then just not doing anything in a game, and as an opponent you should watch for ways to make things fun. Yeah it might not be the smartest thing to do, but this is a game of plastic guys, so winning here really isn’t that important as making sure you both have a fun time in the grand scheme of things."
Personally I find this rude, especially when your opponent is trying hard to win. If your opponent wins because of "something stupid", it cheapens their win and doesn't really let them learn that there are hard lists and there are goofy lists. I'm not condoning playing tournament strength lists like Nidzilla, 9 Obliterator CSM or 9 Leman Russes against newbies, but rather if an opponent is willing to try playing it, they should be forced to try their best and win without any handicaps.
If I were to face a truly new player, then I'd have a weaker list but still play my best to win. I always insist on playing to the best of my ability so that whenever a new player wins, he knows he's won with true ability or experience.
Myu
· 4 months ago
On the other hand, If I'm playing a new game, I prefer it if my opponent is trying to help me learn and go easy on me. Otherwise I feel they just want to win and don't care whether I'm having fun.
I'd much rather someone go easy on me to begin with then keep losing and not be able to learn why. Having enemy forces attacking you (whether they are strong or not) is fairly unnerving if you don't know the rules.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
I have to agree that you have to be a little easier on newbies, or people using new armies. I always point out if someone has missed something or doing something in haste.
This was true yesterday when I went against a guy who usually plays marines but was trying our a IG army. The guy would either forget to give orders, or he would give one unit a order and then start moving or shoooting before giving orders from other command units!
As for doing stupid things ( heroic actions in my mind!) this is a must in non tournie games. Especially if the person you are playing hasn't killed anything! It puts a smile on my face and your opponent gets a laugh as well!
RexScarlet
· 4 months ago
Trying to teach and trying to learn are admirable, but difficult in a GW rule-set/game. Have your opponent help you learn the game incorrectly/wrong is what will happen 9 out of 10 times (as the blogs about GW rules are endless).
Does anyone remember in grade school when the Teacher whispered a message to a student, then in turn the students whispered the message to each other, until it got to the last child and the message was completely different? ("The blind leading the blind" is another analogy)
Rules are rules and cannot be changed (lol), but “opponents” have the ability to bend and adapt in order to have fun or not (maybe reposition your Devastator squad for no reason, so it does not fire for a turn if it is wreaking havoc on your opponent, etc.).
Shadelance
· 4 months ago
I agree. I recently played my very first game of Fantasy, but ive played 40k for 11years now, so I had a good grasp of Fantasy just from being around it for so long. I ran a 2000pt Lizardmen list against an Orc tournament list. From the very start I insisted that he play his best, because if he gave me a handicap, I would jump on it and make him suffer for the greivous mistake of thinking I need it. In the end I wound up crushing him, my Engine of the Gods and Sarus Calvery ate their way through giants and Black Orcs alike. He managed to kill my old blood, but that was about it. He played his best and I got my first fantasy win, it felt good.
jon
· 4 months ago
Not to down play your victory
You played against greenskins- they have one of the worst fantasy book at the moment!
The newer book are much, much easier to win with.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
If I am playing a newbie I will give them a easy time. When playing somone with a little bit more experience I usually give them the choice of Good Az or Evil Az (Az is what they know me as in the local GW club). As you can guess this gives the opponent a chance to either learn by their own mistakes or I can point out when they miss something. However, when i see someone at the club with a beard list Evil Az comes out to play!
Myu
· 4 months ago
That Chaos vindicator looks like it was plucked straight from a 40k battlefield. Scary stuff O_O
Skragger
· 4 months ago
Have fun? That's why I play orks...
Vampire Harlequin
· 4 months ago
Oops. Sorry, error in the above post. I meant competitive play should NOT necessarily be a dirty word (s). Sorry!
Grossmeister Jardezz
· 4 months ago
We had a 50000 points Apo-game and in the first 2 rounds of our opponent shooting-phase me and my teammate had nearly 10000 points out of 25000 points to take away. Ähm, no, that was no fun! Then we were called bad players because we kept a Warhound and Anggrath in reserve. Easy to say when you have one Warhound, a WARLORD, a Reaver, 2 Cobras, 4 Shadowswords and other nasty stuff on the table. We only had 3 Titankiller weapons... We gave up after round 3 because there was no light on the other side of the tunnel, just more explosions and death!
Myu
· 4 months ago
You should have used your mind powers to turn your opponents' brains to slag. It's what I'd do.
TheDude
· 4 months ago
Playing Warhammer 40,000 in an ultra-competative style is like going fishing with neuclear weapons.
Destructive, hostile, and completely stupid.
RexScarlet
· 4 months ago
But, LOOK AT ALL THE FISH!
rofl
TheDude
· 4 months ago
Yeah, and real fun for the fish (you opponent).
TheRealChris' comment below makes a lot of sense.
RexScarlet
· 4 months ago
Exactly, see my "cold war" comparison above...
Arch_inquisitor
· 4 months ago
Brilliant article here, I agree with everything said. In my opinion the most satisfied GW hobbyists are the ones that can play both 'hard' and 'soft' games.
Both styles are fun for different reasons, and both styles give you different experiences.
But lets not just put the 'need to win' on just competitive players or play style. The players that 'need to win' can come from both sides of the camp. But this comes down to personality judging as opposed to play style judging.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
lol- so Goatboy is having a run of bad dice, so suddenly its all about 'fun', and we get this rubbish..... Sorry, but I subscribe to the 'Conan' method- 'to crush your enemy, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women.' Forgot to move something? Or shoot it, or what have you? I'll be happy to point it out...once its my turn and its too late for you... Take back a bad move? Not in this lifetime..... Tabled by the 3rd turn? That's what's up! See, the thing is- my real 'gaming' is against 'friends' (I use the term loosely, 'cuz they're jerks :P) in my club- and there's no mercy to be had there. My friends would hire skywriters to rub in a bad move you made that cost you the game. Imagine looking up and seeing 'overextended your command squad- sucka!' in fluffy white letters....yeah they'd do that if they could, bu so would I ;) We stop short of sabotaging each others cars- just barely. That's how we have fun. By attempting to mercylessly slaughter each other. And then thinking of creative ways to celebrate our victories. Victory dance around the parking lot, anyone? Whoo-hoo! As for playing 'new' players, I don't do that anymore. And I don't play children regardless. It's too frustrating. In a GW store, I'd rather let the redshirts do it- their better at it. They have training....I think. As far as bringing 'hard' lists? I play Tau. My hardest list is like tissue paper compared to any of the newer codexes, But they're my boys, wadda ya gonna do? There's no 'hobbyists' in our club. You take that fancy, well written 'scenario' and just go ahead and crumple it into a little ball and throw it out. Time to roll a mission and get about the business of destroying your opponent- 'cuz he's a loser.... Afterwords we'll have a drink and laugh about it. And then we'll post the jokes at our website. And then life or death challenges will be issued, and next weekend we'll do it all again!
Goatboy
· 4 months ago
Not really bad dish, just making some observations after seeing some local players basically cheat people with either insanely tough armies or not giving you all the rules as you play. I know it is up to you as a player to choose who you are going to play, but come on. It is like I said a game of plastic guys.
And yes, I play tough with my tougher opponents in the store. Especially when testing etc, but there is no need to gloat. I would rather have a good strategic game, then something where I forgot something. Trust me, as I play I take all you have into consideration before I make moves. Planning out where I want to try to go and what needs to happen. Thus I try to point out all their shooting units and what they have left. It just makes games 1) move faster 2) a hell of a lot more fun.
faultie
· 4 months ago
If that's how you and your "friends" have "fun", I guess the hobby is doing it's job. Just realize, outside your little fish-bowl, things are different.
SinSynn
· 4 months ago
I play lots of pickup games, too. But even then, it's very rarely against a total stranger. Our community isn't so big that you'll end up playing against someone you've never seen before, ever. Even if you don't know the person, it's funny how you'll recognize his army! I guess since I play Tau, no one ever calls my list 'cheesy' during a pickup game. It's not like I'm bringing a dual lash chaos list, y'know?
faultie
· 4 months ago
What do you mean you haven't got anything cheesy? You're playing Tau. You have Vespid! :P
kahn265
· 4 months ago
"These are the types of builds that can crush a normal player and make them not want to play again. It isn’t an artful army, full of interesting strategies or methods to win. No it just sits, and shoots, shoots, and shoots some more, before leaving you wondering why you wasted your 25 minutes to set up on the table."
Thank you for saying this. Being the person who has gotten to the point of "not wanting to play again" its refreshing to see someone actually say this.
jon
· 4 months ago
I'm a bit of noob to 40k,(about 8 months) but a fantasy vet, competative play has completely ruined fantasy if you don't have one of the lastest four books (DoC, VC, LM, DE) -(WoC aren't that bad) - you just can't compete! It has really taken fun out of the game.
I play IG and I love my troops! I've only had one boring 40k game to-date, and the opponent did the silly blood angels drop pod thing. It was just a boring game. However I believe that 40k is a much more balanced game, and much more fun then fantasy (atm)
Dr Henry Killinger
· 4 months ago
In every battle I play, I try my best to get my Chaos Lord into combat with my opponents leader. This isn't always a smart thing to do. I play Khorne, which I feel is more suited to carving through infantry than taking on characters, so I tend to be worse-off going up against some of the more hardcore leader models around (two that come to mind being a jetbike-borne Archon and a Canoness with a Jump Pack and 2+ Invulnerable save). Still, the idea of my Lord facing off against his opposite number is too good to resist. One game recently, my opponant and I made some questionable movements to ensure that our leaders made it into combat with eachother for the final turn of the game.
mexican
· 4 months ago
Great article! Always getting better too.
It reminded me of my first game. I had built my IG to 1200 points and had a a foot slogging Catachan Army that was backed by a vindicare assassin. I bought all the models that looked cool at the time to me. I was playing on a 6x4 board against an Iron Warriors player who had a basilsk and insisted we play long ways. It was 6 turns of being blasted away. lucky for me anything I did finally get in range of died to his horrible armour saving rolls. I'm convinced it was karma for being such a jerk to a new player.
Black
· 4 months ago
This has to be the first post you've ever written that doesn't suck. Tournaments are one thing (As you point out), and playing a game is just that - playing a game.
If more people figured this out, the world would be a better place.
Good post GB.
Rich
· 4 months ago
Someday Goatboy I think I would like to play a game against you. I always thought from your post-article comments in previous articles that this was how you played the game. Nice to see I was right.
I think the best games of 40k I have played are where every gain is paid for in blood and win or lose your opponent and you feel like you've both been wrung through the mill getting there.
Any monkey can engineer or copy a "killer list" and crush their opponent without mercy. Knowing when and how much to "turn it on" and your opponent always feeling like they have had a good game no matter what happens, that is the mark of a great player!
Hat off to you sir, a good article!
Rich
Bishop
· 4 months ago
I have to agree with Goatboy on this one. I am primarily an individual who got into the game 20 years ago because I enjoy the visual dynamics of the game, and the playing of the game is secondary. I will often play a less powerful list because it is more visually captivating.
At Adepticon this year, I had two polarly opposing incidents, back to back. I was playing in the Patrol mission, and came up against a Grey Knight player with my Necrons. First turn, he wiped out all but one of my Immortals in his first volley. He then was about to direct his fire against another group. I informed him of the Necron rules, and told him it would be smarter to wipe out the last Immortal, otherwise there was a 50% chance of each model returning next turn (it was my most expensive and premier unit). I did this in order to both teach him, and because he was a fun opponent and it was a fun game.
Next game I came across an Ork player who had a large squad of Nobs on bikes, with a Painboy with Feel No Pain and each figure had different gear so he could allocate hits as he saw fit. He tabled me by turn three. He then proceeded to tell me I was the best opponent he had played all day (this was the last game of the day) as I "almost" killed ONE of his Nobs (no one else had come close to killing any of the Nobs). Well, this just wasn't fun at all, heck, it wasn't even challenging for him.
This is a GAME!!! If it isn't fun for both participants, we might as well spend our hard earned money elsewhere.
Chaosgerbil
· 4 months ago
Good post, Goatboy. Here's a brief story about the least fun 40k game I have ever had, highlighting how important your points are.
He was playing a min-maxed, beardy three falcon holofield list during a 4th edition tournament. You should have heard the complaining when I finally managed to immobilize one falcon.
He was argumentative and bullying about rules, including changing what terrain counted as depending on the situation.
At the end of the game my opponent was still bitching about how lucky I was with my saves, because I still had one model left and he hadn't tabled me.
For him, winning was everything. For me, I was hating life and wondering why I had invested so much time and money in 40k. Fortunately my next two games were lots of fun since my opponents had heard of sportsmanship.
Fabio Bile
· 4 months ago
"sit back and shoot" apart from army building that's all what 40k really is.
DeathJester
· 4 months ago
Really? Say that too Dark Eldar players or Orks!
lol
· 4 months ago
Do you know someone called Duncan by any chance? :P
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He crushed me. First of all, I was still trying to grasp the rules, and would do things like fire only one weapon off of a LR or a dreadnought. I played the whole game without adding in the extra attack for charging, or the extra shot for rapid fire range, and rolling 1d6 to move through cover. I know at one point I shot at his tanks with some bolt guns, and never even considered running up to his tank to hit it with a power fist (punching a tank? really? it took a while to realize that this was actually a good idea). And my opponent spent the whole game gloating over his crushing victory, never stopping to let me know that I was playing the game wrong.
(I later learned that he was a terrible player and hadn't won a game in weeks, which is why he jumped on the new player, thinking I was an easy target.)
Thankfully another player took me under his wing after that and taught me how to play the game properly, otherwise I probably would have never come back.
Oh, here, use these Land Raiders. But I'm not going to help you learn or play better or anything like that.
Well, good for him-- now you know who to avoid next time. Picking the right opponent is a very important part of the hobby when you are playing pick-up/friendly games.
"Do you know you can't assault after rapid firing?" Especially when it's obvious he wants to charge. "Why do you roll only one dice moving across terrain?" This would be a simple question in your case.
I won't point out strategies and such during a game, only rules reminders and such. After the game however, depending on the time I insist on discussing strategies or pointing out good/bad moves throughout the game. This is where I believe a newer player truly learns, as he will remember his strategic mistakes clearly and how to avoid them.
Sweet merciful tap dancing Christ on a stick YES! For God's sake, youre pushing plastic toy soldiers around a table and rolling dice. Anyone who takes it 100% seriously and goes out to win at all costs all the time needs to get a grip.
A couple of themed lists can be a lot more fun. When your forces has actual weaknesses that can exploited and your opponent has too. When some of the more outlandish units can have their moment in the limelight because there are enemy targets they can actually harm.
Unfortunately this is not the view of everyone. A while back on Warseer I asked a WAAC player that if a new army list came out with a super-unit that completely unbalanced the game and meant that his own personal favourite army automatically lost against them, should everyone be forced to play that army to enjoy the game? His reply was yes, and that was the entire point of the game and that anyone else that didn't play it that way was wrong.
To follow up on that, I will quote a famous science fiction author:
"The game's the thing...The fun is what matters, not the victory. To glory in the defeat of another, to need that purchased pride, is to show you are incomplete and inadequate to start with." ~Iain M. Banks
Unless they're joyless, ultra-competitive, pedantic rule-lawyer-ing win-mongers. In which case point and laugh, wash, rinse and repeat.
Unfortunately, for him, it was a take and hold objective with the marker in the middle of the map. I'd spent 4 turns charging across open ground being shot to death. My surviving 1/3rd was packed around that objective. I saw him pick up the mission briefing, read it... and it finally dawned on him. He tried rushing his command squad out in a rhino, and my chaos lord singlehandedly smacked down the whole squad and sent them running. He lost, and all the models he'd killed didn't amount to a hill of beans.
Sometimes, when people get obsessed about killing models, they forget special scenarios, or victory conditions.
Warhammer 40,000 isn't designed to withstand competative play, it's designed to be loosely balanced at best, and played by kids 11-14.
Our battles have seen all sorts of attrocities commited against 'The Spirit of the Game', but i wouldn't dare field one of those armies against an unwitting opponent. It just wouldn't be fun.
Against anyone other than this guy and i'd take a sensible, fairly balanced list and be happy to take on all-comers with the assumption that whoever they are, they're going into the game with the same mindset.
I don't see anything wrong with power gaming as long as your opponent is planning the same. If someone sneaks up on me with an uber-list and doesn't see anything wrong with it, they're only going to play me the once.
I tip my hat to you, sir.
But seriously - it isn't any fun to crush your opponent game after game after game. If they are not a worthy opponent, what did you prove by crushing them into the dirt other than the fact that you are actually a bigger DORK than they are? Army build that a 10 year old with NO strategy whatsoever can win with don't prove anything about your generalship. The best games are CHALLENGING - win, lose or draw.
I think there are several things you can do they break down into 3 categories: FOC, Mission, Fluff
FOC:
We assign points value limits and org limits, what about having to buy one of every slot before doubling up? Or you could put a 0-1 on EVERY unit type.
In Apoc - you HAVE to balance out the superheavy equasion - not neccisarily 1:1 for model count...
Mission:
Pick something other than the standard 3x3 "roll-a-mission". Once upon a time, there was a big GREEN rulebook that had TONS of missions in it. Anybody bother breaking that thing open lately? (Planetstrike may go a long way to mixing this up).
One of my favorites - put everything in reserve, and not only roll for it to come on the table, but break the table into 6 edges and roll for random edge entry.
Lots of other stuff you can do to keep it fresh...
Fluff:
Certainly last but not least...for me, this is at least 1/2 the reason I started playing. You get the creativity and storyline of the RPGs without all the hyper detail of RPGs (taking 1 hour in real time for 10 min game time, or trying to determine if the direction and mass of the arrow could penetrate leather armor from a certain distance....) And a suitably complex gaming system without being to monolithically pedantic or complex...
Rolling the standard missions sometimes lacks a bit of Pathos...pick a battle and try and recreate it. Bring the units that you know were historically there.
If you don't care about the 40K history - try playing something else...
Goatboy, you are improving.
The obvious candidate that gets some coverage here is Epic Armegedon. In the tourney a couple of weeks back each of the top five races were different.
But thats because it was designed ground up with a specific scenario and army lists for 'tournament' - where you wish to win at all costs - style gaming.
40k is a skirmish game endlessly tinkered with to become a company level game with many many exploits and fiddly bits. Its just not suited to that style of play unless everyone knows before hand thats the point. For 'pick up and play' its awful and I'm sure causes no end of strife and dissapointments. Its not helped by some many 'official' armies being a bit pants, not the best of models for those that wish to play the local demon.
But the 'tournament' style game is indeed really balanced across all the army lists and list styles available, unlike Warhammer 40,000 which is only really balanced when played 'soft'.
*playing the game well* is the most important factor in winning in a competative game of Epic, not *writing your army list well*.
I play Dark Angels, which some people consider to be one of the underpowered codices right now (and I would agree), but it's still playable in a competitive setting, which is better than a lot of games.
Also, master of the fleet.
Bigger board; ok.
If you start "no more" than 24" apart. Many times I have seen players setting-up long ways on a 6x4 board (48" apart), only to come back during turn 4 to see one player has been shot to pieces, even though they were trying to have fun, and to no fault of either player, some armies are just better at range than others. It is hard to cross “no man’s land” 48” when your troops only move 6” (plus run D6).
Both of the above together; sure.
Less points; nope.
Many Armies, fun list or not, are much worse/better than others at 500 points, especially with minimums required. Unless scenario driven.
Scenarios, scenarios, scenarios...
GW games are like a "cold war" build-up. If your country can afford 10,000 tanks, and your opponents’ country can afford 10,000 tanks and ONE Nuke, he will win, period, to no fault of your opponent, if Nukes are allowed.
I believe this blog should be called; Let’s have fun “Opponents” dang it!
Only trouble is now I can't turn it off... so even in tourneys I let my opponent get away with stuff if it looks like they aren't having fun. Needless to say in competitive settings I don't win much.
Scenarios, stories and campaigns are more exciting IMHO than slugfests of the same bloody list you see every week.
Personally I find this rude, especially when your opponent is trying hard to win. If your opponent wins because of "something stupid", it cheapens their win and doesn't really let them learn that there are hard lists and there are goofy lists. I'm not condoning playing tournament strength lists like Nidzilla, 9 Obliterator CSM or 9 Leman Russes against newbies, but rather if an opponent is willing to try playing it, they should be forced to try their best and win without any handicaps.
If I were to face a truly new player, then I'd have a weaker list but still play my best to win. I always insist on playing to the best of my ability so that whenever a new player wins, he knows he's won with true ability or experience.
I'd much rather someone go easy on me to begin with then keep losing and not be able to learn why. Having enemy forces attacking you (whether they are strong or not) is fairly unnerving if you don't know the rules.
This was true yesterday when I went against a guy who usually plays marines but was trying our a IG army. The guy would either forget to give orders, or he would give one unit a order and then start moving or shoooting before giving orders from other command units!
As for doing stupid things ( heroic actions in my mind!) this is a must in non tournie games. Especially if the person you are playing hasn't killed anything! It puts a smile on my face and your opponent gets a laugh as well!
Have your opponent help you learn the game incorrectly/wrong is what will happen 9 out of 10 times (as the blogs about GW rules are endless).
Does anyone remember in grade school when the Teacher whispered a message to a student, then in turn the students whispered the message to each other, until it got to the last child and the message was completely different? ("The blind leading the blind" is another analogy)
Rules are rules and cannot be changed (lol), but “opponents” have the ability to bend and adapt in order to have fun or not (maybe reposition your Devastator squad for no reason, so it does not fire for a turn if it is wreaking havoc on your opponent, etc.).
You played against greenskins- they have one of the worst fantasy book at the moment!
The newer book are much, much easier to win with.
However, when i see someone at the club with a beard list Evil Az comes out to play!
We gave up after round 3 because there was no light on the other side of the tunnel, just more explosions and death!
Destructive, hostile, and completely stupid.
rofl
TheRealChris' comment below makes a lot of sense.
Both styles are fun for different reasons, and both styles give you different experiences.
But lets not just put the 'need to win' on just competitive players or play style. The players that 'need to win' can come from both sides of the camp. But this comes down to personality judging as opposed to play style judging.
so Goatboy is having a run of bad dice, so suddenly its all about 'fun', and we get this rubbish.....
Sorry, but I subscribe to the 'Conan' method- 'to crush your enemy, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women.'
Forgot to move something? Or shoot it, or what have you? I'll be happy to point it out...once its my turn and its too late for you...
Take back a bad move? Not in this lifetime.....
Tabled by the 3rd turn? That's what's up!
See, the thing is- my real 'gaming' is against 'friends' (I use the term loosely, 'cuz they're jerks :P) in my club- and there's no mercy to be had there. My friends would hire skywriters to rub in a bad move you made that cost you the game. Imagine looking up and seeing 'overextended your command squad- sucka!' in fluffy white letters....yeah they'd do that if they could, bu so would I ;)
We stop short of sabotaging each others cars- just barely. That's how we have fun. By attempting to mercylessly slaughter each other. And then thinking of creative ways to celebrate our victories. Victory dance around the parking lot, anyone? Whoo-hoo!
As for playing 'new' players, I don't do that anymore. And I don't play children regardless. It's too frustrating. In a GW store, I'd rather let the redshirts do it- their better at it. They have training....I think.
As far as bringing 'hard' lists? I play Tau. My hardest list is like tissue paper compared to any of the newer codexes, But they're my boys, wadda ya gonna do?
There's no 'hobbyists' in our club. You take that fancy, well written 'scenario' and just go ahead and crumple it into a little ball and throw it out. Time to roll a mission and get about the business of destroying your opponent- 'cuz he's a loser....
Afterwords we'll have a drink and laugh about it. And then we'll post the jokes at our website. And then life or death challenges will be issued, and next weekend we'll do it all again!
And yes, I play tough with my tougher opponents in the store. Especially when testing etc, but there is no need to gloat. I would rather have a good strategic game, then something where I forgot something. Trust me, as I play I take all you have into consideration before I make moves. Planning out where I want to try to go and what needs to happen. Thus I try to point out all their shooting units and what they have left. It just makes games 1) move faster 2) a hell of a lot more fun.
I guess since I play Tau, no one ever calls my list 'cheesy' during a pickup game. It's not like I'm bringing a dual lash chaos list, y'know?
Thank you for saying this. Being the person who has gotten to the point of "not wanting to play again" its refreshing to see someone actually say this.
I play IG and I love my troops!
I've only had one boring 40k game to-date, and the opponent did the silly blood angels drop pod thing. It was just a boring game. However I believe that 40k is a much more balanced game, and much more fun then fantasy (atm)
It reminded me of my first game. I had built my IG to 1200 points and had a a foot slogging Catachan Army that was backed by a vindicare assassin. I bought all the models that looked cool at the time to me. I was playing on a 6x4 board against an Iron Warriors player who had a basilsk and insisted we play long ways. It was 6 turns of being blasted away. lucky for me anything I did finally get in range of died to his horrible armour saving rolls. I'm convinced it was karma for being such a jerk to a new player.
If more people figured this out, the world would be a better place.
Good post GB.
I think the best games of 40k I have played are where every gain is paid for in blood and win or lose your opponent and you feel like you've both been wrung through the mill getting there.
Any monkey can engineer or copy a "killer list" and crush their opponent without mercy. Knowing when and how much to "turn it on" and your opponent always feeling like they have had a good game no matter what happens, that is the mark of a great player!
Hat off to you sir, a good article!
Rich
At Adepticon this year, I had two polarly opposing incidents, back to back. I was playing in the Patrol mission, and came up against a Grey Knight player with my Necrons. First turn, he wiped out all but one of my Immortals in his first volley. He then was about to direct his fire against another group. I informed him of the Necron rules, and told him it would be smarter to wipe out the last Immortal, otherwise there was a 50% chance of each model returning next turn (it was my most expensive and premier unit). I did this in order to both teach him, and because he was a fun opponent and it was a fun game.
Next game I came across an Ork player who had a large squad of Nobs on bikes, with a Painboy with Feel No Pain and each figure had different gear so he could allocate hits as he saw fit. He tabled me by turn three. He then proceeded to tell me I was the best opponent he had played all day (this was the last game of the day) as I "almost" killed ONE of his Nobs (no one else had come close to killing any of the Nobs). Well, this just wasn't fun at all, heck, it wasn't even challenging for him.
This is a GAME!!! If it isn't fun for both participants, we might as well spend our hard earned money elsewhere.
He was playing a min-maxed, beardy three falcon holofield list during a 4th edition tournament. You should have heard the complaining when I finally managed to immobilize one falcon.
He was argumentative and bullying about rules, including changing what terrain counted as depending on the situation.
At the end of the game my opponent was still bitching about how lucky I was with my saves, because I still had one model left and he hadn't tabled me.
For him, winning was everything. For me, I was hating life and wondering why I had invested so much time and money in 40k. Fortunately my next two games were lots of fun since my opponents had heard of sportsmanship.