DISQUS

b · 1 year ago

People still getting hung up on the special characters vs doctrines?

If the marine codex is anything to go by- then people should just grow up and find something decent to whine about- its a logical change that makes the most people happy:

You still have customisation- the ability to shape an army to fit a theme- using the marines example- all bike armies that flank with the WS dude, or flamer heavy armies led by Mr. Hesten. By limiting the number of extra rules you can throw in, you avoid the unbalanced options... (Light infantry is fair for its price, as is cameleo, but add them together- is it really only worth that many points? What about if you throw in deep-striking for free just in case you run out of places to infiltrate)

Its less confusing for your opponent- alot of people will argue that "you should just ask them" Well yeah- just ask them, but it becomes alot harder to cheat if the rules are tied to a model with very definate gear. It makes it easier to play with and harder to cheat

It still allows you a basis for your own fluff....
Sure some people will say they are constricted- your only constricted if you want to be- just because bob my commander comes with a bp and ccw, doesn't mean i can't give him mighty background about how he is from the planet potato.
The fact that the special characters give you a basis- means those who aren't creative can have their cake, and those who are more creative can go to town on customising that theme of character.

Finally it lets them release new models- there may be some cool ones- there may be some crap ones- but at the end of the day they produce models- if it means they do some cool new ones that are worth collecting, starting an army for or even just as conversion fodder- i'll be happy

Admiral Halsey · 1 year ago

I think people seem to be missing the point.
As a guard player I don't want to take Captain Dropsie McKasarin in order to give my stormies deep strike. I do not want a 75 point 4 wound stormtrooper, who somehow has power armour because he has to be harder than the other stormtroopers. And I do not want every single one of my deep striking storm trooper engagements to be lead by the same storm bolter wielding loser. I want to pay the balencing points, or forfit the options to give my stormtroopers deepstrike! There is no reason why I would have to have an IC do do this. There should be no reason at all why I can't just have deepstriking stormtroopers, or Camocloak infantry at a balencing cost or drawback, without taking some mindless prestatted out combat madman, with access to unique equipment never seen anywhere else.

I don't want to have to buy dropsie, I don't want to have to model dropsie. I want to field captain steve pingo, who I just converted up yesterday. Sure, he's only got a lasgun, but he's got a damn cool hat, and I'd like to play with him for once. Sure he could count as Dropsie, but that might get a little confusing for my opponent, as the model I want to use clearly isn't a powerarmoured storm bolter wielding stormtrooper hero of legend. (£12 now from your local store!), and I'd still be paying points for a model I don't want to use.

I don't mind the system of rules, such as exchanging combat tatics for subborn, but I resent having to play pedro in order to do so, when if combat tatics for subborn is fair swap, it should be perfectly fine to do such anyway.

Docrailgun · 1 year ago

It's all very simple.
If you don't like the rules in the Codex, play with some house rules. I play Blood Angels, and I will continue to use the BA Codex sometimes (as they are quite viable, especially when certain games in my area don't allow special characters), but I will be using the same miniatures with the new SM Codex as well.
In any case, why give yourself an ulcer complaining about what will or won't be in a book we won't see for a while anyway? There's very little anyone can do about the rules at this point.

BrianGeneral · 1 year ago

The problem is WHEN can you use House Rules in tournaments where you really want to use your fluffy army?
I think Halsey have a point: we do NOT to take a certain individual in order to gain some stuff for my army. We want our army being able to stand along without any strong dude leading them. This can work for Marines, not for IG. Marines are character-centered but IG isn't the case, so why should IG follow such a thing?

bsmoove · 1 year ago

Close your eyes and pretend that instead of being called "special character" it was called "doctrine." They are both "keys" that open strategic elements of an army. This is a distinction with very, very little difference.

If you want to pay the points -as you did with doctrines- and don't want the character, then leave him off the table. The points will be roughly equal as they would have been otherwise and you won't have to fret over the character that bothers you so much. Nobody will really know (or care to know) the difference... even in a tournament.

The IG will continue to operate as they have. GW is not going to completely forget the history that they themselves have so painstakingly created, elaborated, and supported. So don't worry. Your guard army will still be your guard army.

BrianGeneral · 1 year ago

I don't have a Guard army, at least for now. If the trend is going just like Marine sthen I'll probably leave my thought of collecting them for good.
The main problem is, when taking SCs you're limited to those so-called "doctrines" and which you can't take them without that character, or if you take them you're stuck with that particular organization. Think about the past: IG are supposed to be customizable WITHOUT any presence of characters, because the "doctrines" are supposed to be army-wide instead of being guided by any certain figures. Nor they're limited to just a few doctrines unless they played specialized regiments like DK, Elysians and Catachans.

Since the pre-release of Marines codex I sided with those against "Key IC" organizations. I don't think I'll shift this position if this is implemented to IG (which there're just too many variants fluff-wise when compared with Codex Marines). As I said, this is somehow reasonable on Marines, but NOT for IG.

Admiral Drax · 1 year ago

Beautifully put, Halsey.

- Nice one.

- Drax.

Tactic_Possum · 1 year ago

The point is: What if none of the characters match up to the army one wishes to create?
The player should be able to create an army that goes with their fluff, though restrictions should be in place to hold power gamers in check, this is the real trick. Balance, so give the GW guys a break, they're just trying to find a balanced system. Even if they did wuss out and take the easy road of cookie-cutter, character based, armies.

Also thank The Emperor for cheaper infantry. Orks for the same price get ferious charge (strength 4 on the charge) and are unbreakable in units larger than ten. This at the price of BS 2... with their pistols that do more damage when thrown, rather than fired.

Admiral Drax · 1 year ago

I must say I'm wary of the 'special character' direction for Guard - they ought to be more anonymous than that, and powerful/influential heroes really ought to be few and far between.

Tank squadrons would make sense, and the general points reduction is simply essential. I hope - for fairness's sake - that they make sentinels cheaper, and likewise I hope - for fluff's sake - that they don't make the mistake of making the Guard too powerful.

Obviously a reduce in points cost will mean playing more models, so things like tank squadrons would be fairly logical (although the vehicle squadron rules are a little draconian to be applied to battle tanks, methinks).

As for specific characters? I doubt I'd go in for them, even if they weren't prohibitively expensive. I'd just use 'counts as' rules, and that'd be a shame.

I hope I shalln't have to re-roll my light battalion - I guess Guard will probably lose the infiltration option currently granted by the 'Light Infantry' doctrine as it's surprisingly powerful, but we'll see. Thanks for the rumours. Are we looking at February-ish for the release?

- Drax

MightyOrang · 1 year ago

Tank squadrons DO make sense ... but they make sense for every army ... except for the Marines and CSMs (since they're so numerically small vice all the others). The idea that only the IG has figured out tank platoons is just silly.

Admiral Drax · 1 year ago

That;s fair enough - on both counts.

Anony-mous · 1 year ago

"Many special charaters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex"

I fear a million generic vanilla IG armies...
The Leman Russ box sounds like a good thing thought... Space Wolves can still use it, can they?

stayscrunchyinmilk · 11 months ago

Look in the back of the main rule book under "Space marine Tanks". It appears to say "Leman Russ Annhialator", but it's not in the marine codex.

Hmm I wonder which marine force will do that?

do you think they'd make a seperate sprue for it, or is it possible it'll be the much vaunted "New leman russ Varient on the Revised Sprues". I'm slightly puzzled. Hmm I wonder.....

deus of dice · 1 year ago

sounds great cant wait to see the codex and all the new models would like to see plastic ogryns though shop i go to wants 17 dollars each but i guess thats how it goes sometimes. 200 points for 45 guardsmen, is that at bare minimum with no upgrades im guessing?

TheJim · 1 year ago

"No More Doctrines... Many special characters that will provide army wide rules like those in new SM codex"

This is the worst idea that's come out of GW in a long time, IMO. The 'Special Character = New Army!' line of reasoning precludes any sort of individual initiative on behalf of the players to create their own armies. I've got no doubt that it will be easier for people to make Guard armies now, which seems to be what GW wants, but what about players with existing armies? What I'm thinking that I'll wind up doing - if this proves to be true - is just paying the points for the character and not using/buying the models. It'd be, in essence, the doctrine system all over again, but would allow me to keep my own fluff and the individual character of my army.

beakie · 1 year ago

I agree, it sort of defeats the purpose of making up your own fluff and backstory, when you have to say to your opponent, here is my Gaunt and here is my Schaeffer.

The new SM codex is a turnoff to me for this reason and I don't like the trend.

anon · 1 year ago

Agreed, I was expecting something else than this "SM-me-too" thing, It may not kill player fluff, you can always model those characters however you like, it still does hurt and puts quite a few limits on it. I was hoping for a different system, if the Doctrines where truly gone, something like "You take some units, you can have this army-wide ability, a.k.a Doctrine. For example; Do you want your Infantry/Sentinels to Deep Strike? Then you are limited to 0-2 Chimera variants OR 0-1 Leman-Russ variants in your army. Take more than this and ALL the vehicles must pay an extra cost. If you do not take any vehicles instead, you can give the Scouts or Infiltrators Universal Special Rules to 3 units for free.

anon · 1 year ago

Something I must add is that the "Special Character - Special Tactics" way works for the SM, they are character driven with great legends of heroic deeds made by unique individuals, the IG however, is an army of numbers, sure, you can have very Elite Guardsmen but even then we are speaking of a whole Regiment with it's own High-Quality *Doctrines*.

Some Doctrines were useless? Yes,
It needed some adjustments? Maybe,
It was a tad to restrictive? A minor price for a good Custom-Made Army.

The current Codex is quite nice at what it does. It is lacking some things, like options for a decent almost-competitive CC guard Reg. but then again the Guard is not meant to drop in the middle of a Tyrannid Swarm and win unless you know what you are doing.

I really was hoping for the next codex to *Improve* the Doctrine system, yes it needed some work but it still give great result, Why on Earth are they backing on it now? Why are they going into the SM system? Just because the Poster Boys are doing it does not meant that we IG want to do it.

MightyOrang · 1 year ago

The point is to force people to buy their silly expensive character minis.

Either that or the intellectual well at GW is empty.

chris · 1 year ago

You're just starting to suspect that? The intellectual well at GW started sputtering when they out out 5th edition, and is due to gutter out entirely any second now. (Fear the upcoming Necrons and/or Dark Eldar Codecii, Fear them!)

MightyOrang · 1 year ago

LOL ... no, sadly, it's become apparent to me that things have been going downhill over there for some time. What scares me even more is that the same rot that's taking 40k into the absurd (as a wargame, I mean) has already set in at the WFB teams too (ASF for the HE, Hatred for the DE, etc).

Two easy fixes: 1) go to a D10 system to restore some of the depth to the varying races in the game; and 2) publish the codices as 15 page supplements in WD -- allows for faster updates, variant army lists, and all around fan enthusiasm.

Klownboy · 1 year ago

D10. BINGO!
Definitely needed. A sane way to restore some individuality to various units.

But what would they do with their backstock of D6 packs?

deus of dice · 1 year ago

they could melt them down with all the unsold 300 dollar game boards and make D10 packs.

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

"...publish the codices as 15 page supplements in WD -- allows for faster updates, variant army lists, and all around fan enthusiasm"

I remember raising this point with a GW staffer recently concerning the Marine Codex.. Rather than try cater for a thousand varied and unique chapters in a single book (as the last two editions have tried to do), make a 'starter' Codex which covers all the basics, which can be used as a solid army for new gamers (which many Marine players are). Then release 'specialised' variant lists similar to the Index Astartes series for veteran players who want something a little bit different (with the more popular chapters covered first). There could even be a 'DIY' list with some theme-orientated lists for those who want to design their own chapter.

slovak · 1 year ago

I miss the old Chapter Approved model too. And at the price that White Dwarf sells for, seems like a solid money maker overall-? Codex sells for the same price as an annual compendium of collected articles, seems like a win/win.

Overall though, I'm optimistic that GW will do a great job with this codex.

stayscrunchyinmilk · 11 months ago

Holds breath for new varient lists..........................................

GrogDaTyrant · 11 months ago

Space Wolves.
Followed by Dark Eldar... maybe.
And then Howling Griffons, Black Templar, White Templar, Rainbow Marines, Space Sharks, and Flesh Tearers.

Then they might get on to Tyranids, or other armies.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Special Characters are great. From a gaming perspective its worse for all your guys to pay 1 pt for a rule than for you pay 200 pts for a special character that in turn gives the rule to all your guys. It'll probably end up being much much cheaper in the new system when 1 pt represents a 25% pt increase in a 4 pt guardsman and when your talking about hundreds of guardsmen.......

Anyway the thing that makes special characters so much fun on the table top isn't the fact that in game terms they're actually better than doctrines. Its the fact that epic battles between heroes and villains is what the fluff is all about. I mean I enjoy watching my troop and elite sections crush my opponent's army as much as the next guy but its the showdown between HQs that makes me feel like I'm watching a scene from a book or that sick Dawn of War 2 trailer. Think about it when your talking about a game you played do you say, "man that was so cool when my tactical squad fired at your tactical squad and you made two thirds of your saves."? I know I don't I the guy talking about the showdown between Abbadon and Belial that went three full turns even if my hero lost.

Take a look around the next time you step into your local gaming store. The table everyone is crowed around laughing and having a good time isn't the table where a group of guardsmen have decided to run. Its the table where Ghazghkull is going toe to toe with Skarbrand the exiled one.

Having special character guardsmen that don't have power armor and bioengineering on they're side but decide to square off with demon lords and monstrous creatures armed with faith and a las pistol is the stuff of legends. Legends that are about to be turned into a giant red smear in the case of the guardsman but legends none the less.

Yllib Enaz · 1 year ago

Actually no, we always discuss our games in terms of what was achieved by specific units or the occasional heroic ordinary trooper, quite frankly the doings of special characters is really quite dull unless it is something absolutely extraordinary (like Yarrick taking 3 bloodthirsters or something)

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Exactly my point we're impressed by heroics. Of course we talk about the guardsman who beats a terminator in close combat. After all for that fleeting moment he's attains an almost special character like quality in his own right (perhaps you joke that he's Alfredo the terminator slaying guardsman or something).

These heroic events just seem to happen much more frequently when you hero has artificer armor that grants feel no pain, an Iron Halo, multiple wounds and a special ability that allows him to decapitate opponents.

It's not entirely clear to me what your special characters are doing that causes you to describe their involvement in the battle as dull. Sure if you have them wandering around in the corner of the board like the battle is some sort of boyscout sanctioned event they're going to appear dull. Appear being the operative word Yllib Enaz if they were right in the center of the battle leading the break through action or even just making a glorious last stand instead of hiding in the woods roasting mash mellows with their tooled out body guards you wouldn't have this problem.

I'm with you on Yarrick though that's the kind of glory I love to see. Three bloodthirsters!!! Its gotta be hard being a special character on your table. You finally make it back to friendly lines tattered and dripping blood from a dozen wounds and rather than being welcomed as a hero the sergeant gives you a sloppy salute, yawns and says, "well if it isn't the imperial hero. I saw you take down that bloodthirster and a demon prince out there. are we supposed to be impressed? well we're not. its not like you took on three bloodthirsters or anything. that's why you cost the same number of points as an entire platoon of us. You don't think I could be out there raking in the glory if I had a power fist too? you make me sick. oh ho ho look here boys the mighty hero just collapsed from blood loss. not so mighty now. ptspuh." (that last word is the sound made by you spitting on the fallen special character).

Yllib Enaz · 1 year ago

Okay that Yarrick bit in the last paragraph was pretty funny and in fairness that is kind of how I view special characters, they really have to go above and beyond to justify themselves in my army.

The experience where I play is that we all prefer to have more troops for the points and no special characters. Mind you we havent played much with the new style special characters that enable army options (except for the Ravenwing guy)so that may change.

Personally however I prefer the idea of doctrines to a special character system (though that may change when the codex is published, try to keep an open mind)

BTW I understand Yarrick is marshmellow intolernat

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

I agree with you completely. The old special characters aren't worth their points. Why take Fuegan for 205 points when 10 fire dragons are only 160 and pack way more punch? What do you mean my 10,000 year old phoenix lord can't get it together enough to find a shuriken pistol for two c.c. weapons and an invulnerable save? What's he been doing all this time?

That's why I think the new SC system is so cool. Your not just buying a hero but rather a commander that improves the regular rank and file.

My brothers and best friend are flying in this next summer to play a 20,000 point apocalypse game. I'll be fielding the Salamander 1st and 4th companies (120 man each plus command due to the fluff). For the 1st I'm rocking all 120 as assault terminators with thunder hammers and storm shields. Even without all the twin linked flamers, meltas, multi-meltas, combi-flamers and combi-meltas in the 4th GW is basically giving me He'Stan for negative 1000 points or so thanks to all 120 thunder hammers becoming master crafted. Of course when there's titans all over the place that's substantially less impressive in practice than it sounds.

As far as Yarrick's marsh mellow intolerance...... even the greatest imperial heroes have an Achilles heal. lol.

I really hope one of the chaos players at your store gets a state puff marsh mellow man action figure and starts fielding it as a greater demon just to see that rumble go down. =)

sxoa · 1 year ago

BrotherS? Plural? Does Fredo know of this? You might want to inform him of this fact because I'm not certain that he does.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Fred knows he's coming. I mean come on if your flying in from Switzerland he doesn't have much of an excuse not to show up no matter how cute the girl is.

Additionally as you've decided to call him Fredo for some reason he probably knows that if he doesn't come you'll have him shot in fishing boat sometime after I get tommy gunned down but before you turn over the empire to Andy Garcia.

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

I can tell that you're a Marine player, and not a Guard player. I'm infinitely more interested in firing the big guns pounding on the enemy, and then once they're close enough, scramble my men to charge over the top and into the enemy lines.

Here's one instance of where Doctrines end up being cheaper; Sharpshooters. I will only ever take it on heavy weapons squads, and so I end up paying 20pts to put it on two squads. I don't want a character that gives it to my entire army, I just want it on those two units. In many instances, that's how the Doctrines work. You spend a few points to give a few units in your army a bonus, rather than the entire thing. Specialization, my friend, is key.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Your right.

This is the kind of blatant disregard for the common trooper that won humanity its empire amongst the stars in the first place.

"No, no, no! Johnson what the frig do you think your doing? Oh your practicing your marksmanship are you? Who do you think we are here the friggin' Tanith friggin' First and friggin' Only? Huh? You think your a friggin' Cadian Johnson? I don't remember assigning you to a heavy weapons team! Your on latrine detail until we're off this rock! Who ever heard of such a thing! Practicing marksmanship! If I even suspect your hitting slightly higher then a BS 3 average out there your going to curse the friggin' day you were born Johnson!

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

I can tell how well loved you are on the internet and by local players alike.

So what you're saying to me is that all you need is special characters and you can win any match? Regular troops are irrelevant?

*insert unrelated made-up anecdote here*

Good job asshole, you sure proved your point.

sxoa · 1 year ago

Whoa, easy their. This is a friendly board and people are allowed to disagree with you and even poke fun at you without you needing to call them an asshole. I refer you to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory for formula concerning your rather extreme reaction.

He isn't saying that at all though. I quote, "The old special characters aren't worth their points. " He's not a farseer, and doesn't know what the new IG special characters are going to be like, just as you don't. In the discussion further up the page he's saying that he likes the new special characters "style" from the Space Marines 5th ed codex and hopes the trend continues.

You have a valid point that in some cases doctrines are cheaper than special characters, I'm not (and I don't think 2♥1W is either) contesting this.

I disagree with 2♥1W about this being "the kind of blatant disregard for the common trooper that won humanity its empire amongst the stars in the first place." The individual trooper certainly is just a part of a vast machine oiled by their blood but regiments and what not certainly display different characteristics that are noted by the Departemento Munitorum (sp?).

For example in the Taros intervention, Tallarn forces were preferred because Taros (like Tallarn in the "present") is a desert world. On Vraks, Death Korps of Krieg forces were called in because of the nature of the conflict.

However I think its something of a moot point fluff wise (obviously points cost wise it is still relevant and some people are going to like it and others are going to hate it, par for the course with ANY rules change). If you want to say that the reason your army employs such and such tactics is because they are being led by Captain X (or counts as Captain X) thats the same as if they're led by counts as Captain X but such and such tactics are a result of regimental doctrine and/or planetary origins.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

You going to be ok there Oberst Viktor Morte?

I actually didn't say "all you need is a special character and you can win any match."

If you took the time to read what I wrote you'd notice that i conceded the point to you and was done with the argument (an argument which you won BTW).

I don't know exactly why it is that you've opted to freak out here but I'd encourage you to relax a bit. This is just a friendly discussion between a couple of guys that enjoy 40k.

If my comment was this upsetting to you please forgive me as that wasn't my intention at all. Sure I like to joke around but the goal of these discussion boards is to have an in depth discussion with other gamers and 40k enthusiasts.

I was under the impression we were having that discussion right up until the point that you called me a sphincter muscle when I don't even play 'nids (who as I'm sure you know is the only army that makes extensive military use of sphincters).

Anyway. No hard feelings. I look forward to further discussion with you as you make very interesting points.

And just so we're all clear here a wise but somewhat angry man once said, "specialization, my friend, is key"

While the statement is profound in an of itself I like to focus on the word, "friend" =)

Oberst Viktor Morte · 9 months ago

I have serious doubts that you'll ever see this, but on the off chance that you might, I offer my apology. My reaction when I first read it was that you were simply being sarcastic with a tone of malcontent. However, this was not the case, and my response was a severe over-reaction. I must have been havnig a really poor day. =(

I still don't like the idea of Special Characters, but there was no reason for me react like that. My apologies. No hard feelings from here mate.

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

200pts for 45-ish guardsmen sounds just slightly too cheap. Assuming it includes officers, sergeants and the like, I'd say 250 to 300 points sounds more reasonable. After all, that's a lot of shooting for an opponent to deal with, and a lot of bodies to go through to take them out of the game.

On the other hand, I like the idea of tank squads. It seems more like how guard would deploy their amour, rather than individually.

user@example.com · 1 year ago

Well, orks are 6 points. 4 points for a guardsman is reasonable enough (handwaving the command squad as double-cost).

Also, as the cost of basic infantry goes down, the relative cost of heavy weapons gets harder to justify - 20 points for a heavy weapon on a 60 point squad is much easier to take than 20 points on a 40 point squad.

Mitey Heroes · 1 year ago

I couldn't disagree more. The entire points base of 40k was originally designed on one principle: the basic human soldier is 5 pts. Everything else is relative.

Making guard 4 pts removes the foundation of the points system. Grr.

Oh well.

Mike X · 1 year ago

Wait, if the principle is based on humans being 4 points then how are Orks only 6 points, yet Space Marines 16 points? In fluff Orks are nearly as tough as Marines...and way tougher than IG. If it was based on this, Orks would be at least 10 points.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Especially when 8 and a half foot tall 500 year old genetically engineered super soldiers can't get there stuff together enough to get a second base attack but orks that pop out of the ground like dandelions are able to manage it.

Bennee · 1 year ago

It may have been based on that originally but now it is based on the 16 points of a Marine

banjo · 1 year ago

Well, you should be have been "Grrr-ing" since the last IG codex was released. Guard have been 6pts a piece since then so as far as I'm concerned, that whole basic soldier = 5pts argument is irrelevant.

Hwilam · 1 year ago

Basic human = 5 pts, without wargear. A RT era IG trooper is 9 pts, and an entire squad (10 w/ lascannon & GL) is 200 pts (SM tac squad is 250). Basic Ork is 5.25 pts, but that's a RT era Ork... by that old calculation system, a modern Ork would be 10 pts (approx 13, flak armor, "slugga," cc, as wargear), and a modern Marine would be 8.25 (approx 16.75 w/ pwr armor, bolter, cc) using the original build rules... but it's been so long since those really had any relevance to this game... e.g. when those rules were made, a land raider was 750 pts.

In a nutshell: what Banjo said.

Knight of the Lion · 11 months ago

I find it quite good as it makes them at least slightly near the gaunt point price (3 points each) and cheaper than orks in which the Orks would slaughter them terribly if they getting into assault range.

Ben · 1 year ago

Well right now a bare bones platoon is 40+60+60= 160. Knowing how the Marine codex goes add in the Vet Serg upgrade so +12=172. Maybe frag grenades at 1pt a model so 172+15=197? Dunno. I'm not really seeing where the other points come from. There would have to be a ton of "free" weapons like in the marine codex or some kind of crazy special rules to make the 200 points make sense. Maybe Junior Officers are a little beefier now?

Seems to be counter to the "4 pt. Guardsman" rumor I heard earlier, and we all know Guard troops don't need to lose the numbers advantage. The little outline I came up with above puts the average guardsman at 7pts and the squad at 82 with no upgrades. Hmm. I guess we'll see what this is about.

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

45 Guardsmen at 200 points works out to be just over 4 points per Guardsman.

Ben · 1 year ago

RIGHT I did my math with only 25 men. DOH!

weeler · 1 year ago

Special characters providing army wide rules makes sense in the fact that now your opponent can look at your army, see the special character, and know what type of army rules you have. Special characters can add character to your army, also it is easier too model a special character vs. a doctrine or a special squad rule. As a chaos player I model an icon with the squad and right away my opponents know what that squads special rules are. So far 5th edition, and the new codices work well. It now requires a whole new list of tactics to wipe your opponent off the board, you can't just hug the back line and blast your opponent to oblivion. I always hated those games.

Long live Abbadon

Phill · 1 year ago

"Now your opponent can look at your army"
--awww, our dear oppnenents, have they not the power of speech, to ask?

"also it is easier too model a special character vs. a doctrine or a special squad rule"
--also, it is the way of the coward.

LEGION3000 · 1 year ago

except when you take your regular seargant, paint a red stripe on his shoulderpad and call him "Harry the tank killer" and use the special rules of Gaunt or whoever you feel like in that game. Remember you don't actually have to use their special models.

You could model a guy in a full face mask and change who he is every single game if it suits you.

weeler · 1 year ago

Legion 3000 your right, you can do whatever you want. I think GW introduces these special characters, because for the most part it is easier to choose the SC and know what type of army the person is playing. The fact that you can and are encouraged to customize any one or all of your models (already great looking models), is what makes Warhammer 40K the best table top miniatures game around. I hope most of the readers are part of a good gaming group, because I would quit in a second if I was surrounded by this many whiners. 5th edition is a blast and so far all the new codices kick ass.

Chef · 1 year ago

To all of you people whining about the new codex: STFU. Suck it up and grow up.

Truth · 1 year ago

YES! Preach it brutha! Let the guard set the example and not bitch about our dex, but rather look at it as a challenge to be overcome (versus the chaos kiddies ;p )

Liquid_Pain · 1 year ago

Oooooooooooo Shiny! Heh, my buddy has been chomping at the bit ot make a new IG army, this is only gonna make it worse. heh

Anon · 1 year ago

This really does get a bit old. Every time people here about a special character granting army rules, there are moans about "I don't want to have to take that specific guy, it should be some random guy or my own guy to get the rules"

All a special character is now is a set of rules and equipment, with an arbitrary name and history. They say as much themselves, they aren't meant to represent specific guys, just different hero archetypes. Name him whatever you want, make your own cool model that represents what he has, and off you go.

In the uncounted numbers of the imperial guard, there are no precious unique snowflakes. There is nothing stopping you from using your own name and history for a character model any more than there is for any other unnamed officer, the only difference is that GW put Officer Smythe Williker next to the army book entry instead of Senior Officer.

In the end, you often end up with MORE choice, rather than less, you just have different kids of choices. Generic characters are nice, but because of balance, you have a very limited set of choices. Adding a set of specialized characters to that with more specialized rules and equipment can even allow you to find rules that are a better fit for your personal army background than any of the old custom characters could have ever done, since all they ever really gave you was a choice of gun, maybe armor, and one or two optional doodads.

hludwig · 1 year ago

Exactly, right on Anon. The other point I would like to make is it might not be so much SM special character, generic rule set for the army. Like I take Col. Fraknut and get tank squadrons, or I take Lt. Walklightly and get scout. Then the realy special characters like Creed and so on give more specific rules that only some one like that would have. And don't forget that the regular HQ choices give other options that unlike the SM Codex maybe able to link up with the SC rules to give you something truely special.

rakshasa · 1 year ago

Yup...i also agree with the Anon. In the end you end (pun intended) up with more choices then before. And everyone seems so hyped up against GW...Oh noes they iz cooking up a conspiracy to make me buy all those expensive metal minis! Oh give it a rest...
I made my own Pedro from a captain, i attached a BT power fist (adjusted a bit the maltese cross) and to the right outstreshed arm i attached a storm bolter from a dread and the belt feed goes all the way to a assault cannon glued on the back of the Eagle powerpack...and attached a lot of other various stuff from my tons of bitz...It'z really not that hard. Also use GS, it's that good !
I'll name him Altair Something ( couldn't decide on a last name yet ;))
As for sternguards, i built five with BT tabards and bolters (always trim the maltese cross ;)) to which i added various bitz... I also build another five from Armour throught the ages...cause it's so cool..

See boyos? Don't have to buy all those expensive models from GW if you don't want them (altho' some of them doo look kinda awsome :))))

rakshasa · 1 year ago

when i mean assault cannon, i really wanted to say "assault cannon ammo box"....

MeanAngel · 1 year ago

On the other hand:

Do you really think it's fun to take a single über-character - no matter what name you give him - into each little 750 or 1000-point skirmish (yes, such points values isn't even a proper battle) just in order to have THE specific army with THE rules it ought to have by either fluff or player taste ? I know I don't think so.

Would you be satisfied of playing over and over the one and only character with FIXED wargear for six months, a year, five years ? I know I wouldn't.

Hwilam · 1 year ago

I wouldn't mind playing the same character or five years... but I've been playing for twenty and I can see the long view.

I've been married for five years too, and she's had the same wargear the entire time... and that game is still enjoyable.

:) · 1 year ago

Hahaha! ...good stuff.

LEGION3000 · 1 year ago

yeah but you know you look at all the other cool models out there and would love to play a few games with different wargear. Maybe play a game with some really big guns. hehe...

Knight of the Lion · 11 months ago

lol nice one

Space Machines · 1 year ago

I'm enjoying using my converted He'stan in all the games I've played with my Salamanders, that's for sure.

Grim_Clown · 1 year ago

Oh god, their guardsmen, how 'uber' could they possibly get? Yarrick is about the hardest guy we've got and he still dies to a stiff wind.

Space Machines · 1 year ago

Well, he is drawing his pension!

cavalier1864 · 1 year ago

Well said, I think that people should look at this as an easier way of customizing. Granted, I will definitely miss having Doctrines, but I am sure that I can soldier on.

SSG_Snuffy · 1 year ago

I really hope that the new Hellhound (if true) resembles the Forge World version. I'm trying to make my own and I have to admit, it's a conversion that's kicking my butt...

Shin_Ra · 1 year ago

^there complaint is ligament; change is hard to embrace being more optimistic well probable get u less flame so on that note im excited to hear there coming out w/ more model and that LR tanks gets variation kit WoOtS!!1 GW should have done these in the beginning; it makes me happy that GW isnt that much of a Whore for cash anymore, crossing finger for a executioner turret. ever since i read Rebel Winter id wonted more vostroyen model

Word Nazi · 1 year ago

Spend a few bucks on a composition class and learn how to communicate. Reading blither like that makes my soul weep.

The_Steve · 1 year ago

I like you. Never thought I'd say that about a Nazi.

Anon · 1 year ago

and knowing that assholes like you exist makes MY soul weep

Word Bearer · 1 year ago

Kid, it's not going to kill you to learn some basic English skills.
Type coherently or fuck off.

Voice of reason · 1 year ago

Child, it's not going to kill you to realize that maybe English isn't a first language for some posters. It would take you less time to comb through the comment and understand it than to extrude the snarky loaf you just posted.
Play nice with the other kids, and if you're mad at your mom, yell at her.

Anon · 1 year ago

and it wouldn't kill you to pay attention to detail. no one who writes "woots" learned english as a second language

anon · 1 year ago

Also, cocks

praesor · 1 year ago

The new IG codex will probably be amazing. I have many reasons for saying this. First off as an employee of GW i noticed that the sales for Imp guard are not that great at least in my area, there is only mayne 2 or guard players are rarely see people starting a new IG army, no this maybe because of rumours of a new dex, but even long before that people didn't really find an iinterest in it, there was nothing special about, nothing that made it unique and draw people in. There is a lack of characters and there is characters in almost all races, with the exception of a few. There is 11 characters in the SM codex, I guess it would be safe to say that means lots of choices and diversity when it comes to army building. Now when it comes to the IG if the new dex has 11 characters in it, that would allow for allsorts of diversity when it comes to army building, Also take into account that most Ig armies use aimilar tactics then another with some differences, with character, you woould be able to acheieve almost countless combinations to suit your style of play and building. I think it would be a great step forward in getting more people to play Guard.
Secondly, the current codex sucks, there is an abundance of useless crap that almost nobody uses. A way to help with the new dex is have special characters that gives access to certain set of rules or doctrine systems, for example, SC 1 would have 10 army building/doctrine options but you can only pick 3, that would add the SC element but also make no 2 guard armie the same, the reason i say this is that a general of an IG army would know coutless battle tactic but would maybe only use a select few in any given engagement. Remember that there is the counts as rules so you always have a different charcter with the same stats, but different abilites. Remember this just an idea, so don't kill me.
Lastly, with a new dex always comes new models and generally a better bang for your buck, also if the rumor of a new plastic command squad box that would allow for a whole new level of creativity when it comes to building HQ's for guard, there could also be a new box pastic box that would allow you to build a completely new IC for the guard, making all of your old armies still playable,by replacing maybe only one model.
An one final note, the new Sm codex is simply amazing, if they do such a good job on the IG codex then we will all have a blast building a new IG army, and create a new interest in it,instead of everyone playing marines, IG need love too. Remember with regards to the IG there is always that one individual that leads them on missions and show heroic acts of bravery and might. I say SC for the guard would add a whole new element to the fluff back round of army building.
Now time for the critcism. Bring it on. LOL

No More Room In Hell · 1 year ago

"The new IG codex will probably be amazing. I have many reasons for saying this. First off as an employee of GW"

That's all the reason you need, right?

Minos · 1 year ago

I think that in general the new IG codex will be an improvement, but what exactly makes SC better than IG doctrines or SM traits? Especially if there is a whole bunch of people who hate using SC...

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Special characters are better than doctrines because:

A) 40k is as much (actually more) about having a bunch of cool looking models on the table as winning or losing the game. Special characters are are center pieces in the display that your entire army constitutes every time you play a game.

B) From a gaming stand point your better off paying 200 points for a SC who gives your entire army certain rules than paying 1 or 2 points per model to get those rules.
. 1) Because you get a hard core SC in the deal.
. 2) Because it requires progressively less points the bigger your games get. In a 500 point game its probably cheaper to pay 2 pts per model (but again you don't get the SC) but in an 1,850 game with 200+ guardsmen on the table its much much cheaper to get the SC (and once again the SC is powerful in his own right). By the time your playing an apocalypse game your talking about saving yourself hundreds if not thousands (I know 1,000 IG on the table is a lot but it does happen occasionally) of points.

C) Special characters give your army more flavor. If your going to be an omniscient omnipresent force in a table top war of little models you've invested countless time and energy into painting you might as well have a representative on the field. With the counts as rules you don't need to get the expensive metal model you can make your own and just use the powerful SC stat line. "As it turns out that is in fact not Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed. That my friend is Lord Minos the wise, imperial hero, and the tactical genius behind the cleansing of Purgoth VII, Bearer of the sacred truth and bringer of the Emperor's judgment. Many of his soldiers think that the imperial church will elevate him to sainthood but you know good old Lord Minos, very humble for a man of his status etc. etc.."

Harry · 1 year ago

Yes, Games Workshop is about creating nice looking models and conversions, but it is also at its heart centered around a variety of different forces each with its own caracter and archtype. While some armies are meant to be more heroic by nature such as everybody's favorite posterboys the SM, the imperial guard are based around the darker side of the 40k universe and the horrors of wars of attrition. The nature of the guard emphasizes its anonymity, its 'average joe' quality. What's more heroic, an uber-hero (well for IG) officer/general with an enhanced stat line (that happens to be forced upon you if you want certain options) and wargear or a guardsman taking on the enemy with nothing but a lasgun and a prayer to the emperor?
I personally chose to play guard because I liked the fact that my 'troops' were average men cast into the line of duty, with all of the weaknesses that come with it. After all, have you ever seen a war movie where the protagonists did not face impossible odds that made their victory all the more significant?
I respect your liking of SC, but they effectively add heroics where I like ubiquity. Give me 'Joe the plumber' 40k any day...

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Of course it can be argued that the uber-hero Guard SC is an "average joe" in a galaxy where 20 ft. tall multi limbed demons are popping out of thin air and shredding entire platoons.

I'd actually argue that it is because of their "average" status that the guard are more heroic than the space marines. I mean come on how hard is it to be a hero when your eight and half feet tall have a chainfist that can tear the leg off a titan in one hand, a giant assault cannon thats normally mounted on a tank in the other, the best personal armor in the galaxy and the ability to teleport onto the battle field.

Space Marines are made to be heroes. Guard have to rise to the challenge.

Although to be fair you did forget to mention that the guardsman with "only a lasgun and prayer to the Emperor" has an entire mobile wall of Leman Russ tanks behind him. Which as a general rule substantially increases the likely hood of the Emperor hearing those prayers. =)

Harry · 1 year ago

My point exactly, though of course being inside a tank makes it slightly easier to face the enemy's monstrosities... unless you are crazy like me and prefer pure infantry forces!
Might have to rethink all that with the changes now though, time will tell.

Harry · 1 year ago

Also, you have to keep in mind that most of the population of the Imperium are uneducated or minimally educated industrial or agricultural laborers and don't necessarily have access to higher levels of education. Granted, genius is not necessarily learned, but without specialty training such as the schola progenium (I think that's what its called) it might be difficult for even exceptional individuals to climb the ladder. Also the Imperium is incredibly repressive and seeks to limit the access of its citizens to new information and progressive thought, ensuring the populace knows only what it needs to know in its everyday life. Just some ideas.
But what do, I know, I'm just a humble servant of the God Emperor...

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Of course when you talking about a million imperial worlds and a system in place that actively kills the working class either through drafts/war or less than adequate safety measures in industrial labor your generating orphans at an astounding rate.

I really have no basis for throwing a number (such as on average 1,000 students per world) out there but it seems pretty conservative as for all the shrine worlds or agriworlds with no or limited programs you have hive worlds that probably have multiple programs serving 50,000-100,000 students or so.

So for the sake of argument an average or 1,000 per world it is. Your still talking about more than 3 times as many highly trained militant orphans as people in the United States.

And that's not even taking into account the sisters and all the little girls they kidnap and turn into zealous killing machines (or nurses on a less violent note).

Even with all the exceptional individuals that are ground up by the Imperium a fair number have to excel just based on the shear number of humans your dealing with.

OK · 12 months ago

The nature of the guard emphasizes its anonymity, its 'average joe' quality. What's more heroic, an uber-hero (well for IG) officer/general with an enhanced stat line (that happens to be forced upon you if you want certain options) and wargear or a guardsman taking on the enemy with nothing but a lasgun and a prayer to the emperor?
I personally chose to play guard because I liked the fact that my 'troops' were average men cast into the line of duty, with all of the weaknesses that come with it. After all, have you ever seen a war movie where the protagonists did not face impossible odds that made their victory all the more significant?
I respect your liking of SC, but they effectively add heroics where I like ubiquity. Give me 'Joe the plumber' 40k any day...

I couldn't agree more Harry, If you want a whole new fell to your army you shouldn't be forced to take a SC.

Instead maybe just more doctrines, OR Instead of SC have a new rank in the Command Squad like, Truly Heroic Senior Officer General or such, and have special choices that only he can take.

Like Tank Commander meaning that he is mounted in a command tank and gives a new force organization type.

Something like this would give the guard something like SC with out forcing anything.

This would allow you to give him what ever you want and not take a power fist or such, in an army that does not want to get into close combat.

Other than special rules YOU pick he may not be that great. I think this is the way all codex's should deal with in regards to SC.

sxoa · 1 year ago

Thats true, and thats part of what I was addressing with my (if given the opportunity) aside. Of course the Inquisition is always on the look out for exceptional individuals but a lot of those end up dead or as Inquisitors. Still lots of people join up or are pressed into service in the Imperial Guard and there exceptional individuals can rise (sometimes very quickly in wartimes) through the ranks. They may not be particularly educated. They may in fact be barely literate. But god damn do they know how to stage an ambush.

The schola progenium I think is a special academy for orphans and the like where they basically raise children from a young age to be commissars or other officers in the Imperial Guard. Now of course you're going to have sub par people there as well, though I imagine quite a few of them do not survive training. The better ones go on to become commisars or whatever and the really freaking good ones go on to become Yarrick or Guant. The point still stands that you have a HUGE population to draw from, even its repressed and what not, the ones that manage to shine have to be all that much stronger to get through.

sxoa · 1 year ago

Harry (though correct me if I wrong) I think is saying that being forced to take a "non average" special character for the IG is against what he envisions his army as. No one is making him take the character obviously but the problem is if SM codex is anything to go by then certain army layouts may be restricted or nonexistent without the "non average" special characters.

I would like to point out though that the human population of the Galaxy in 40k is incomprehensibly vast. With trillions upon trillions of "average joes" to draw upon some of those people are going to be really incredibly extraordinary. I mean if you look at actual real life human history on Earth there have been quite a few exceptional people born in essentially all fields of human endeavor. Trần Hưng Đạo, Einstein, Davinci etc.

Now a the population of a single hive, not even an entire hive world, is often larger than the entire population of humans who have ever lived on the planet earth (regardless of whether you believe 4.6 billion or 5000 year olds). Now think about how many astrophysicist supermodel Olympic athletes you could draw out of populations like that (well none actually as none of those things exist in 40k as far as I know, but you get what I mean). If anything, people like Yerrick and Creed, are LESS exceptional in 40k than they would be in our time.

"So you're a military genius Creed? Get in line, we have a million worlds each making their own. Jingo here can do everything you can and he can juggle"

A lot of politics, nepotism and croniism exists in 40k (look at the original commander of the Vraks invasion for example) but there exists plenty of cases where people earn positions through merit rather than connections (Yerrick for example). Exceptional people will stand out and rise up (if given the opportunity) and will often become leaders amongst the average people around them. Those are the special characters and heroic veteran officers.

Of course there are probably more active warzones than worlds in the Imperium and average Joes will by definition always outnumber the exceptional individuals so there are still plenty of armies that only have Colonel Steve the Unremarkable at the helm, and you can probably field those armies too (if the junior officer carries over, you can always rename him Colonel Steve and give him a promotion if you don't like the term "junior officer").

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Yeah I actually really liked Harry's whole different armies have different character and archetype argument.

And the whole ubiquity collectivist glory thing at the end of his post.

Chris · 11 months ago

"Space Marines are made to be heroes. Guard have to rise to the challenge."

Love that - it's why I play IG

CT · 1 year ago

Bare minimum, I hope that the new special characters have weapon options. It would be better for all involved to put the army modifiers on the generic HQ choices for that reason. Leave 'acts of inspiration' to the special characters (i.e. 'a unit joined by' or 'units within X inches' gain a special rule). An army shouldn't lose all of it's distinction just because one named individual isn't present. "Counts as" doesn't make up for that.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Although to be fair there are army modifies (if you count modified force organization charts as an army modifier) on some generic HQs. Space Marine Captain on a bike, Ork Warboss, Ork Warboss on a bike, Big Mek, etc.

There's no reason to assume the same won't be true for the new IG.

Its mandatory in a standard game to take at least one HQ. The new system creates more balance. Before from a gaming perspective it was advantageous to take an HQ for as cheap as possible, sending him into battle in his boxers and not worrying about his fate. Then using all those points you saved screwing your HQ out of any decent equipment to just load up on Troops, Elites and Heavies. Of course it never made any sense from a fluff perspective but power gamers generally are willing to overlook that as long as they're winning 90% of the time.

Now you can still take that approach or you can give your troops a real leader to take them to the gates of hell and back. We'll be seeing a lot more diversity in army composition as a result of the new SCs and I for one think thats a good thing.

I like your Idea about giving special characters options though. We're seeing a little bit of that already most notably with the white scar SC being able to take the field with or without his bike. But I agree the more options the more diverse and in turn the more distinction between armies.

CT · 1 year ago

Most non-'power gamers' that don't like the new special character system don't want to be locked into a certain HQ configuration to play their army (i.e. are you really playing Raven Guard if you don't play Shrike). This could be a whole lot worse for Guard with it's multitude of tank and infantry options. Will you have to play Creed to get Carapice Armour or Guant for Camoline? I really hope not.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

I have to give you that argument.

It does seem that to unlock the full potential of your army we'll be locked into certain HQ choices.

I don't really view that as a bad thing but then I don't fall into the, "don't like the new SC system" category.

CT · 1 year ago

I have to admit it will be interesting to see the new Guard codex; even if I end up missing the old one. To keep all the options from the current codex the platoon entry will probably be around a page and a half. :)

slovak · 1 year ago

I think they're (GW) just mad because so many people were running Junior Officers as their CO. . .

UltramarineFan · 1 year ago

Then again non-power gamers migth not mind the new SC system.
Well, most of them.

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

I dislike you a fair amount.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

Ahh the totalitarian righteous zeal of a commissar. That's the kind of Special character attitude I love to see coming out of 40k players. Its guys like you that will lead lesser men such as myself into battle in the distopian future that is 40k. With a universal contempt for others you view as beneath yourself in every regard.

Emperor be praised!!!

There's hope for the galaxy yet. lol =)

DistopianFuture · 1 year ago

Nice use of my name there. :)

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

Point and case.

TwoHeartsButOnly1Wound · 1 year ago

I see your point friend. =)
That's a pretty strong case you make there. =)

sxoa · 1 year ago

Case?! What case? All you've done is call 2♥1W an asshole and say you don't like him. You haven't laid anything out as a case. Even a lunatic rant, parable, or amusing anecdote would be more of a "case" than what you've made..

But regardless I would like to say that this is much more appropriate than your previous comment (which I replied to, if you care to look at it). I would be interested in why exactly 2♥1W deserves such ire when it seems the only thing he is did was disagree with you in a different part of the page and poke fun at you (which he has done with other people and not received such vehemence in response),

Everything else 2♥1W is posting has been discussion with other players about the game (which is sort of what this is for), where as your comment is nothing but vitriol. Do you have something to contribute? CT 2♥1W have managed to disagree civilly with each other, conceding various points where they thought it was warranted. Can you manage the same?

Anonymous · 1 year ago

Sounds like he is trying to get knighted the "hatchet" way. Civility and rational argument is quite beyond a few people on these forums.

UltramarineFan · 1 year ago

But no one can do it like Hatchett.
If you've been on the reseving end you'll know that I speak the "Truth".*





*Joke that sixsystems and Hatchett will get.

Gr8wall · 11 months ago

I chose IG because I didn't want a band of individual heroes. I wanted an army or faceless soldiers that will fight and die in the emperors name. If you want heroes go play marines or chaos or Inquisition. IG is all about the tanks and the horde and the big guns.

Anyway how powerful can they make an IG special character? I mean he is still only human... it doesn't really make sense (fluff wise) if he can take on, say, a marine hero.

MeanAngel · 1 year ago

LOL, what does make the SCs better ? That you are probably going to f***ing pay for a shiny, new & overpriced metal model, that's what's better, you see. :-))))

TemplarsMonochromata · 1 year ago

No one's holding a gun to your head dude :)
Not our fault you don't paint or convert :P (tounge firmly in cheek)
We see the same comment and I think its like quoting the bible to defend faith against athiesm... its just not internally consistent!
GW may gouge, grind and fanangle (look at the price of their glue!)
but they provide a quality product. Up to us if we actually want to buy it.

bsmoove · 1 year ago

Even GW actively encourages you to make your own "counts as" models -as opposed to simply buying the one's they've created. When Dark Angels came out, they ran an article immediately after in which three painters sculpted their own successor character equivalents.

Of course, if they made a special character without a model, there'd be just as many people complaining that GW doesn't support its own fluff. Damned if they do; damned if they don't.

I don't mind criticism of GW, but it has to, at the very least, be motivated for genuine reasons.

Anonymous · 1 year ago

I was considering starting a Steel Legion 1500 point mechanized list.

Now I'm not so sure....If I have to take a special character this is likely going to screw me over. Unless they come out with a cheap HQ (I was planning on using Gaunt, only 75 points) that represents General Kurov I don't even know if I'll play Imperial Guard.

My second concern is x-only armies. ie- Creed is Cadian only, Gaunt turning to Tanith(sp?) only, etc.

Good thing I didn't order any models from GW just yet.

Space Machines · 1 year ago

If they're sensible they'll just make Chimeras a dedicated transport option for all Guard squads, that way any Guard army can be mechanized.

Bobx66 · 1 year ago

4 point guard and 65 point chimeras would mean you could easily fit 5 armored fist type units, a chimera mounted command squad, 2 basilisks and 3 leman russes at 1500 points. Do the math.

sxoa · 1 year ago

Your first concern I can't really address since the book hasn't come out yet.

Your second though, has already been addressed by GW with their encouraging of "counts as" stuff. You can take Creed with the Elysians and say its actually whoever the Elysian equivalent is. Even if (and this would be really bizarre if they did) GW explicitly said you can't do counts as stuff in the new IG codex you could STILL DO IT. The big J is not going to kick down anyone's door and make them "play by the rules" and call that model Creed and this model Guant.

To preempt the tournament argument, I would be really surprised if a tournament organizer was so anal that they wouldn't let you refer to your models as whatever you want. And if they were you should really find another place to play that isn't populated by such control freaks.

In some ways actually the removal of doctrines and the implementation of special characters allows for "easier" usage of characters like Creed in non-cadian armies. In 4e codex, the Cadians had a very specific set of doctrines. If you wanted to use Creed with the Elysian set of doctrines you'd have to do some good stretching so you wouldn't pull anything before you started the intense hand waving to explain these circumstances (or you could of course do "counts as" which has always existed just now its more encouraged and "official").

static grass · 1 year ago

It wont work like that. You pay the points for "Creed". You paint up your Creed model (or conversion) in catachan colours or whatever, give him a new name "Jon McCreedy" and roll with that.

I have the white scars guy in my "DA successor chapter" - Angels of Redemption. I am using the marine codex.

Sla-Ha-Nesh · 1 year ago

In all my years of playing with the current IG codex, I've never really given my officer anything special. Bolt/Las Pistol, Power Weapon, Honorifica Imperialis. Maybe a Refractor or plasma pistol was I was stupid. So being forced to take one of these special characters won't be a big deal. They'll just be more expensive and more powerful, which is fine by me as I wouldn't mind having an Officer who can kick real butt in combat.

jquest · 1 year ago

Wow, after all this time waiting, so many complaints. It's a given the IG are usually used by the more dedicated players (so many models, so little paint). I'm just hoping I can use more of my minis (priests, psykers, and sentinels) with a little more power and a little less points. It's tough to complain though, right now I've been playing against SM and my opponent usually has 3-10 models left on the table when the game ends. The cover saves, indirect fire weapons and mass numbers right now are overwhelming SM, I can only imagine what the new codex is going to bring!

Savark · 1 year ago

PLZ plastic steel legion and tallarn

Anonymous · 1 year ago

Uggh, no. I think metal models are better and add a special quality to your army. By releasing them for everyone to use, they get over-played to hell. That's why I originally wanted Praetorians and am now considering starting a Mechanized steel legion list. If anything, introduce a new line of figure. Give people something to get excited about.

No More Room In Hell · 1 year ago

You don't want awesome plastic miniatures because you want to be a special little snowflake? Man that's a selfish attitude to take.

I think the Guard need some plastic greatcoated guys which then can easily be turned into Steel Legion, Kreig, Valhallans, etc etc etc

Azzy · 1 year ago

Thank you. You said that far more politely than I could have. :)

Mike X · 1 year ago

Agreed.

Besides, the majority of armies are mostly plastic now, so what makes "Anonymous" think everyone will suddenly flock to plastic-molded IG?

Liquid_Pain · 1 year ago

Sides, if the general point is for people to get into the game and play it. Keeping models in pewter just doesn't make any sense any more, I mean really. Espcially with the price increase in the U.S. hell, I make 30k a year and live in seattle and I can't afford to make the Sisters of Battle army I want to make now with out putting a lean on my house, cause all the pewter models got thier prices hiked up. ;-p ...of course I say that now and I realise that if I'm not mistaken we still pay less for 40k stuffs than the guys in europe do.

Ben · 1 year ago

I see the special rules in question being more like carapace armor or light infantry, and not deep striking storm troopers. That was never a doctrine choice, it's always been part of the unit entry and I predict it will still be.

I'm being nit picky though. I get your respective points. I'd like to take a slightly different army without 200 point Colonel Jo Bob tagging along every time. Maybe we'll see characters that are cheaper and not too uber that just give you the special traits.

Ultimately though, it'd be nice to see SC with options like Marneus Calgar, such as "Colonel Jo Bob can replace his storm bolter with power weapon and las pistol" or something. Of course Marneus only has a choice of armor, and what would be the point of a "senior officer" in the HQ section at all if they did that.

I guess we'll see what GW does. At least this system can kind of work for Marines and Guard. I'm curious to see what they do when Tyranids come back around (what do you mean I HAVE to take Old One Eye to have a regenerating Carnifex?)

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

The only reason the armour option is included for Marneus is because some people will still have the old power-armoured model that was available years ago. I guess by the time the next edition comes around, the option will no longer be available as the terminator-armoured version would be the one most active players use.

Prometheus · 1 year ago

Although this thread was started about the IG Rumors it has seemed to become about the current "Special Charater" based army varients that GW has been including in all the new codexs.

As far as the "SC" based armies comments, I feel that it does get rather annoying having to play against Shrike everytime you play against Raven Guard, however I would like to point out that some people actual enjoy playing with those Special Character because they are usually pretty powerful and/or they have cool rules.

With that said however I feel that GW is trying (with 5th edition) to make the game easier to play and funner to play. With that they had to make some difficult choices, they clearly choose to make army varients rely on a Special Character to set them off. As stated above I do not really enjoy this option however I understand it and I feel GW has gone far to help people who maybe doesn't wanna field "Captain BadArse" every game by telling people (at least in the Space Marine Codex) to go ahead and use the rules for a Special Character but build someone yourself or simply paint them different (ex: Calgar + Black & Silver paint + a little green stuff = Forge Father of the Iron Hands Chapter).

*Side Note: Anyone else find it odd that the Iron Hands don't have a special character in the new Marine codex... every other first founding (that doesn't have thier own codex) does, heck Ultra Marines have FIVE!

In the end however everyone has to either deal with the rules as GW makes them or have to simply find someone who doesn't mind "House Rules" and play against them. I know people who hated 4th so much they never played it and have (until recently) still been playing 3rd edition. The only thing bad about "House Rules" is that very rarely are they truely fair and even. It has been my personal experience that people have good intentions with "army special home made rules" but often fail at make them fair in game play terms.

Now with all that said back to the topic at hand: IG Rumors.

Personally I hope they get ride of Doctrines. Replace Ratlings with simple IG sniper squads. Make Ogryns better (no one ever uses them). And, if half the rumors are true about the Russ, amke it either more expensive or worse armour. Im not a fan of a unit being so over powered and cheap and hard to kill you would be stupid not to take them.

Grim_Clown · 1 year ago

An army of 9 leman russes is not a viable tactic in normal games and is not as overpowered as people seem to be making them. If it was, Armoured Company would be faring sincerely better, AC tanks don't even come in squads, and probably don't suffer the same consequences as we will in the new codex. Even with that many tanks the misconception you somehow destroy another players army effortlessly is shallow. For a tank which scatters 2/3 of the time, and 4" plus cover saves i don't see them destroy whole units a turn. You can throw in three extra heavy bolters, yes, and while your at it you can make the tank more expensive and kill 1 extra marine a turn. Doesn't really matter because by turn 3 at least, anyone with a strength of 4 can hurt the tank.

Seriously, i don't think you'd be to bright depending on them with 66% of games being objective based.

Starion · 1 year ago

True. I have an AC I like to run every now and then - 5 LR + 1Demolisher for 1500 pts (love my AC Doctrines :) ). Under 4th ed, it was hit and miss - I'd either win big, or lose big. One game, I completely mullered an Ultrasmurfs infantry heavy force, another I got creamed by Ravenwing through being completely outmanouvered - and that was AFTER I dropped the only two melta weapons on his force. And (through experience) never EVER take AC against Necrons. They don't even need to reach CC range, with their 'glance AV14 on a 6' rule. 5th ed might make an AC more survivable vs Nerons now though, without the possibility of glancing insta-death.

Now with 5th ed being objective based 2/3 of the time, and despite AC LR's being troops choices - they're still NOT scoring units (Main rules - troops are NOT scoring if a vehicle, swarm, or have other rule stating so). So you have to treat EVERY game as an attrition game, whereas your opponent can hug those 4+ saves and sit on objectives. Five or six turns of 4+ cover saves on a horde army gets anoying very quickly.

And as for turn 3 CC at the least? More like turn 3 at the LATEST with the 'run' rule....

Space Machines · 1 year ago

Not to mention the fact that the second you put an LR into a squadron it becomes much more vulnerable - after all, a glancing hit can destroy it now (immobilised vehicles in squadrons are wrecked). I'd think twice before fielding quite so many.

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

Under the new rules, however, wouldn't you have to destroy all three (or however many there are in the squad) to earn the Kill Point?

Terra · 1 year ago

In my opinion its the least they can do considering the basic platoon is worth 4. As well as the added disadvantage of facing more opportunities for being destroyed for being in a squad.

Starion · 1 year ago

It wouldn't surprise me if the individual LR's are 1KP each - the whole Squadrons thing is for light vehicles (Vypers, Speeders, Warbuggies and the like). If the rumours are true and you CAN get 3 LR's in one slot, then they'll probably be deployable individually.

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

I'm in the boat of disdain for Special Characters. I have never fielded a SC, and I never intend on using one, so long as I don't have to. I have plenty of characters in my army. I play the Death Korps 501st, led by Oberst Viktor Morte, with attached Commissars Ares, Tartarus, and Nox Erebus. There are Watchmasters Elend, Stein, Tier, and Asche.

The point is, these are my special characters. I paid my points for the regular units and made them into characters, and I think that's more important than having "General Whilheim" lead my army if I want to play Death Korps, or take Death Riders, or anything like that. Of course, I can always take the easy way out and just use the Forgeworld rules (which I do), but it's the principle of the matter.

I have a small Marine force and I'm starting to build up a more high-tech guard army as well. I don't want to take Special Characters with them, because the units themselves are the characters. If I wanted an ungodly Commissar, I have Gaunt and Yarrick that I can take. However, if I want my troops to be able to regroup, I want my +5 point upgrade, not to have to spend another 50-75pts+ on another model that I have no use for in the rest of my army.

Yllib Enaz · 1 year ago

Well said! Thats the guard spirit as I know it!

No More Room In Hell · 1 year ago

I'm wondering if this IC = Special Rule thing is going to still be in play whenever GW decide to redo the Tyranid Codex.

Looking forward to fielding Feedy Mc Tentacles and Adrenal O'Glands, I tell you what.

Space Machines · 1 year ago

Bring back the Red Terror and Ol' One Eye, that's what I say!

TheJim · 1 year ago

There is, of course, always another option which I thought of, based on the game Flames of War:

Pay your points for your special character and don't use him. Simply pay the points for them like they were a doctrine choice and don't field the model. I mean, they're Guard, right? Not likely that the SCs are going to be any more than an HSO in Stats and, really, Guard HQs are there for leadership, not CC, so there's no appreciable difference if you take a Company commander with a Commissar and Voxnet. If it comes out that the SC rule is true, then that's what I'll be doing.

GeorgeLupus · 1 year ago

Just on a quick scan of these comments, it seems that everyone is for the most part hung up on the special characters = doctrines concept.

I'm more concerned by the 45 guardsmen = 200 points. Is THAT the minimum platoon size now! Jesus I hope not! I run 2, 25 man platoons, the thought that I'd have to both buy & paint another 40 guardsman (almost to a fully painted platoon now) is rather alarming, not to mention the logistical concern of transporting them too (guess I need another mini case).

Curious what sort of havoc that this will create with kill points too.

Hwilam · 1 year ago

I run a mechanized with Vostroyan minis... needing half again to twice as many models is going to be a little tight. But, I can always sell blood plasma...

GeorgeLupus · 1 year ago

Ooh! OW! (potentially) Doubling the ALL metal IG army.....Yeah THAT'S way scarier that what I may have to deal with.

BrianGeneral · 1 year ago

I think that 45 men will be 5-men Platoon Command + 4x 10-men squads. So yeah, I think they're continuing to stress the importance of Troops in this supposed-to-be-troop-heavy army.

alvin · 1 year ago

one thing that hasnt been said about squading tanks. right now if a sentinal squad fires on a target they all have to so if squad of russes fire on a target wouldent they all have to wich kinda limmits tha fire power a bit. exampl= russ#1 fires its battle cannon at CSM suad 1 and kills them then suss#2 and #3 would have to waste thier shota into a unit that is ether not a viable target or dead space.

UltramarineFan · 1 year ago

Then again it's not that often that a russ kills its target in one shot.

UltramarineFan · 1 year ago

an you could take them as three seperate units.

Catzilla · 1 year ago

Actually I own an IG army and every base soldier except for commissars and some old metal figures is converted. Mostly put on extra armor because I like the fluff of an army in carapace armor originating from a high tech world. I streamlined all the models to look a bit more modern without losing the gothic touch too which took some time in the hobby cellar...

So I guess you know that I would be really, really sad if all this conversion work that I've done is basically for nothing if the new codex does not deliver a way for me to represent all this on the gaming table.

Just for thought: I really liked the Vitrian Dragoons in those excellent novels from Mr. Abnett. They seemed to have some similarities to my own army.
So, that said, as long as people can bring on their Tallarns, Urdeshi, Mordian, Catachan, Krieg, Cadian etc. with fitting skills in the wargame itself, I am okay with it.
And if that means that you need a special character to provide your army with the traits that fit...perfect, why not?!
I just hope that GW really caters to the flexibility of the IG in that way. This means that they better provide seperate characters for all ongoing major army types in the background and that's not a small number. This naturally implies that the IG must have more different choices on characters than any other army out there. Otherwise, how are you going to cater to all these different guard models out there?

Let's make a list, we have following models (correct me if I missed any):

Cadians, Catachans, Mordians, Steel Legion, Gaunts Ghosts, Tallarn, Valhallans, Praetorians, Krieg (although Forgeworld), Elysians (again FW)...10 different model choices already.
Given that, you add up all these not-model-supported armies in the current codex and you have a huge amount of flexibility.

I highly doubt that GW churns out enough character choices to create a similar flexibility.
That's why I am so far very very sceptical that the new codex, although supported by new models and stuff, will be as variable in your army choice as the old one.
And that would be a shame.

Just my thoughts...maybe they bring on a lot of characters with enough "doctrines"? Let's hope...

Catzilla · 1 year ago

Forgot the Vostroyans...forgive me, fellow IG-players!

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

You also forgot Attilans.

Catzilla · 1 year ago

Oh dear, yes I did but they are so easily overlooked since they do not have a real separate army...just the roughrider models which you can get in a Tallarn version too. Don't really know if that counts then. No offense meant to all those Attila-Guards out there!

;-)

Billpete002 · 1 year ago

I think this shows they are sticking with Cadians.

Vepr · 1 year ago

6 point orks and 4 point guardsmen? Who ever thought gaunts would be considered expensive? lol

slovak · 1 year ago

You also forgot non-Imperial guard. . . the rebels, renegades, and misguided of the universe, who since the collapse of the Lost and Damned are completely unrepresented in a GW sanctioned list.

Nicholas_S · 1 year ago

The Imperial Guard Codex would do as a makeshift Renegade/Traitor/Cultist list. Traitors/Cultists count as Infantry Platoons, Mutants as Conscripts and the particularly scary fellows would be Commissars/Psykers/Priests.

Arkangel · 1 year ago

Try looking at the Siege of Vraks books, Part one and two, from Forgeworld. I'm pretty sure you'll find a copy of Part 1 on the internet posted somewhere, or you'll know someone who's coughed up for it. The lists provided are very good and include all the new tanks, Malcador's and Macharius' etc. Part two also has undated rules for Chaos Space-marine vehicles and Warhound Titans. I'd say these would be pretty much 'sanctioned', if that's the sort of thing you're looking for.

slovak · 1 year ago

I have the Vraks 1 book and I agree with you, the list is great and a lot of fun to play. My only problem with it is that as it's 'unofficial' it sucks to have to ask your opponent's permission to play it -- which always seems to cast some pall of suspicion over the outcome of a game, even a friendly one.

My comment above is pursuant to a GW sanctioned, or 'official' set of rules to make a list (come on, evil special characters!!) representing the scum of the universe.

rasczak · 1 year ago

Dude, that has been great. Hahaha.

Arkangel · 1 year ago

Ladies and gentlemen. It would appear many have forgotten the name of this thread or it's purpose. These are just 'Rumours'. Until anything is confirmed by GW they will stay exactly that. I follow a lot of threads on BOLs and it amuses me the amount of whinging and moaning that happens over things that 'could' or 'could-not' happen. I'm all for going with it and being either surprised or slightly disapointed 'when' it happens. I'm certainly not going to stop playing IG or 40k just because things change. I'll mearly adjust and get on with it. :)

BrianGeneral · 1 year ago

On the contrary, these Rumours MAY become true to some extent, so i believe players who love their armies will always have the right to shout out their complaints to the public or to other players.
I don't really feel that such whining is a problem at all.

Arkangel · 1 year ago

I agree, don't get me wrong, I'm all for people airing their opions and don't see that as a 'problem'. However the extent to which some individuals take these 'rumours' and become all 'Doom and Gloom' of things which 'MAY-NOT' prove to be true does go a little too far, and just causes more harm than good surely....?
Having been in this hobby for 20 odd years it's great to see others opinions on what's to come, and their thoughts of how the Armies accross the whole 40k range will be affected by Ed5. BOLs is a great medium for this with so much gaming experience scattered accross the world. I just don't buy into the rumours too much, because that's all they are.
At least your honest.....and positive :)

mrrshann618 · 1 year ago

Sc's granting abilities in a IG army really doesn't make sense. That is unless they do it for their own specific "branch" I'm going to use a movie reference. In the movie Platoon you had two Sgt. who where at each other's throat, both were notable figures. Those under Sgt. Grodin (Elias) were viewed as "misfits", Those under Sgt. Barnes were the "hardboys" The platoon was split into two camps behind one of the two Sgt's. Going with a GW SC lets say these are LT's Those in the force under Lt. Joe are trained as such, < Recon > those under Lt. Bob are trained after this fashion < Grenadiers>. Each would fulfill a different battlefield role. I understand there are IG regiments ( like the Tanith ) that are talent specific, but there are many more armies that are varied Talents within one regiment, to say that EVERY regiment has unified traning if they Take SC "x" is silly.

I can understand it happening in a SM army, where you generally play elements from the same company, 100 men are easy to train similarily. IG's 1000's is a different matter.

thirdman · 1 year ago

For my twopenneth worth (yes I'm British), I'd like to see a wider selection of unit choices - each with their own points cost & options, to replace doctrines. So, for example, the Troops options available to an IG player would include:

Infantry Platoon (i.e. Cadians)
Jungle Fighter Platoon (Catachans)
Light Infantry Platoon (Light armour & infiltrate)
Heavy Infantry Platoon (Carapace)
Mechanised Infantry Platoon (Armoured Fist)
Drop Troop Platoon

Each of these would take up one Troop slot - an IG player that wanted a themed army could select all his Troops from the same type, others could mix & match as required. This mixed MOS army list is supported by plenty of fluff, for example the Tanith 1st (light infantry) fighting alongside Heavy Infantry (the Vitrian Dragoons and Volpone Bluebloods).

This would give, to my mind, a codex better able to represent the variety of IG regiments with an easy to understand framework for both the IG player and their opponent.

Leinad Yor · 1 year ago

What I think would be nice is that if they want to put SC's into the Guard they should be low in cost, be put into command squads and possibly replace the officer.

If you put one in the HQ it can effect the army as a whole, then one in each platoon to give a bit of flexability.

thirdman · 1 year ago

That's a good idea - you want a heroic leader like Gaunt, put him in the HQ slot. You want to represent a lieutenant who has trained his men in scout tactics, but a SC as a Platoon leader who gives his men Infiltrate.

Leinad Yor · 1 year ago

This could also represent the spirit of a combined arms force put together to take on a special mission. Infiltrators to scout ahead, grenadiers to storm a building, HW's to cover the escape and mechanized infantry to jump in when things get nasty, get all of this just in troops and it would rock.

Luci · 1 year ago

I am excited enough to dust off my Vostroyens. Eager to see if each type of IG gets a special character to replace their default doctrines. New models will be cool but I doubt that I will get too many since my army was one of the worst selling.

bebibejita · 1 year ago

I want to preface this with the fact that my first army in 40k was IG and I played it solely for 4 years. I love the army!

These rumors sounds potentially abusive. Tank squadrons sound like the worst idea, even if it will be limited to the Russ. 9 Russes is just silly. Yes guard has many disadvantages it has to face now but I do not think they equal the addition of 6 more tanks to an army. And no they do not need the ability to move and fire all weapons. At most there could be a special character that lets you take one additional heavy or something but 6 is to much.

Sure outflanking is sometimes great and drop pod marines are the flavor of the month but i still don't think any new awesome trick is going to contend with 9 Ig heavies. These rumors IMO would give IG an "I win button" at tournaments. And they would still have other aspects of their army, not that they would really be needed.


Yes orks were buffed to much in their latest codex but I believe that has more to do with an ork player being able to use time on their side in a tournament and move his models very slowly. This is not the proper response.

I do not wish this to be too much of a rant (even though it is)but these rumors (and that's what they are right now) sound possibly broken. This is not even addressing the cheap guardsmen, the rumors of multiple heavy weapon troop choice, what direction they might go w/solar marius and his ability to go first (a much needed nerf from the old days right now though), use of the calidus, the needed slight nerf to the hell hound which may or may not come, etc.

Again, I love IG and they were my first army and have a special place in my heart :)

Grim_Clown · 1 year ago

9 Leman Russes are not an instant win button.

But i'm interested, why do you think the hellhound should be weaker? With a relatively short range and despite the fact it has to role to hit with its template weapon i think its rather fairly priced. Marines tend to laugh in its face, ok thats fair enough but it seems to have its fair use against more numerous troops without completely undermining them.

bebibejita · 1 year ago

I think it needs a slight nerf if the rumors about 9 heavies is true. Guard need some kind of major disadvantage (beyond being guard) if they are going to to gain the ability to field so much ordinance. Perhaps a slight nerf to other aspects of their army (ignoring doctrines) and the hellhound seems like a great place to start. It is not great, but I think it s very good and an army that has 9 heavies does not need other very good things.

Guard IMO always have suffered at tournament play (even though I have won many w/guard) going from 1500 to 2000. 9 heavies at 2kpoints is going to be interesting at tournaments.

But I hope you are right and maybe it won't be so bad. And again, they are just rumors.

Why do you think 9 heavies is not as good? I would appreciate your insight because I could easily be missing something.

Grim_Clown · 1 year ago

I tend to have a rather cynical out look on most of this topic but I saw it in this way.

Squads will force 3 leman russes to shoot at 1 target. In tihs regard this they become more susceptible to damage (joy for necron players i guess because their gauss weapons are now useful...). Depending on how you arm them as well you might be wasting shots shooting at that one target.

Ordinance isn't as powerful anymore, especially in the hands of a BS 3 tank. That means they scatter 2/3s of the time at least 4". Its also very easy to get cover saves in 5th ED. All this adding up and you kill considerably less then you usually did in 4th ED. All up that means 3 of your 9 leman russes will hit on average.

Now you could arm them with more weapons if this move and shooting rumour is true but say you take 3 heavy bolters. You kill 1 extra marine a turn. This also makes your tanks more expensive, taking up a very large chunk of your army.

You haven't even given them vehicle upgrades yet. Plus any unit with a 2+ armor save still laughs of at a battle cannon.

3 Leman Russes will probably take up a large part of the field as well, in certain deployment scenarios this can get hectic for the rest of your force (usually very little considering the points you've spent on the tanks).

And i guess their still very easy to damage in close combat if their rear armor remains the same.

My view is that at 1500 points your struggling with the rest of your army, making it very clear to you opponent how your going to move and how they should react. At 2000 points your all out of tanks and you've kind off left your infantry hanging.

But personally i think its daft you balance an army on the assumption people will always take 9 leman russes. What happens when you play smaller games? Reducing the effectiveness of the rest of the army would encourage players to further depend on the leman russ.

However i don't believe they'll be able to move and shoot, somewhere along the lines i think someone misinterpreted it. What i do believe is that if conquerors are included in the codex then they at least should have this ability. More to the point if the leman russes where so feared then AC would be fairing much better, despite the fact they pay extra points for several tanks. Their tanks don't even come in squads.

Bobx66 · 1 year ago

A golden age is coming for the armored company. And its going to be provided for in the codex. The Arizona Chaos metagame will be crushed under my battle cannons.

Hanged Man · 1 year ago

Alrighty then, so special characters are probably my key to continuing to field my IG armies of choice, if the rumours ring true. An uncomfortable change but I can deal, 'counts as' and all that nonsense.

But what about when my army isn't based on one of the regiments emulated by an SC in the codex? What if I want to recreate a regiment I originally made with a diverse variety of doctrines?

My argument against the new SCs is not having to field them, or forking out the points for them in a battle where I don't think I can afford them (although that does irritate me), it is the loss of choices and variety that gave rise to the forces I fielded before. I cannot fathom a means by which to create an SC for every conceivable combination of doctrines from the old 'dex. There's too many even if you only restricted it to the popular doctrines.

They either include a ridiculous sum of SCs to represent the majority of armies created through doctrines, or they deliver a swift, sharp kick to those players whose imaginations went beyond the core regiments.

weeler · 1 year ago

Maybe the new IG codex should not be one book, but an entire set of 24, 400 page
books that drown the reader in bureaucratic BS. This would be the closest thing to real life. Players could then spend months building an army that no one understood, including the players themselves, and we could remove the gaming aspect from 40K altogether, IG and SM players could just discuss politics for a weekend and no one would win. I can't wait to start complaining about the new Space Wolf codex, and I'm sure Dark Eldar will be totally unfair.

The Hobo Hunter · 1 year ago

I thought mandatory special characters for armies were dumb, even with Dark Angels. Why does Belial have to lead every engagement of the Deathwing, and why does Sammael (and for that matter every other DA-successor commander, who happens to be on the same bike, which are apparently oh-so-rare) have to be at the forefront of every Ravenwing operation?

For the IG this just gets even more silly. There are so many different regiments out there, even companies within those regiments, who will never see (and probably never even know of) Commissar Yarrick, or Creed and Kell. Why then, should every army be forced to use the aforementioned Dropsie McKasrkin just so they can play Grenadiers?

Similarly, I don't like this "counts-as" srap. I'm all fine with using Creed and Kell, because I like the background, and for suitably epic games they give me some decent rules at a competent price. I for one would be quite annoyed if GW decides all 'cadian' regiments (of which I play one) must be led by a dual-pistol wielding Churchill-impersonator and his trusty sidekick. That doesn't encourage balance or variety at all. If GW goes with 'generic Stormtrooper captain - may allow STs as troops', 'mechanised comand squad - Leman Russes as platoon support' or similar, I would be happy. Each of these characters would be suitably customisable, while providing new benefits for the player to distinguish his or her army from anothers'.

Having SET characters with SET wargear that the army MUST have for their UNIQUE (in the loosest sense of the word) rules is not fun, nor does it encourage variety.

Slightly off-topic: I got quite annoyed reading 2HeartsButOnlyOneWound's posts about the 'fluff' of 40k. To me, the fluff of 40k shows themese of totalitarian governments ruling over oppressed unwashed masses through fear, paranoia, racism, and a healthy dose of medieval-style superstition. The epic battles between Mighty heroes locked in Personal Combat come far lower down in importance in the fluff IMO. Quite a fair bit lower. Try reading something that wasn't part of Codex: Space Marines, and you may see this somewhere.

If I wanted my hobby to center around watching uber-charcters smack each other around, I would play DOTA. Or Heroclix.

@b: Sure, someone can make a regiment of infiltrating, camo-wearing, deep-striking guardsmen, but now they only get two elements of support from the restricted troops section. I guess the Departmento Munitorum decided they were so good, they didn't need any more support from other detachments. See how the balance is (at least attempted to be) maintained?

sxoa · 1 year ago

You are correct that the fluff (novels and codices) show themes of everything you described except racism (its actually speciesism, to paraphrase Pratchett "white and black banded together against green"). However, these broadly drawn themes provide a backdrop against which the tales of heroes and villains (be they larger than life like Abaddon or simple rank and file people like Jon) take place. You have admitted yourself that it is only your OPINION that these conflicts "come far lower down in importance in the fluff" Other people may have different opinions than you and I don't think that warrants getting annoyed about.

You're also incorrect when you say "Try reading something that wasn't part of Codex: Space Marines, and you may see this somewhere." It shows up all over the freaking place.

Where you might ask?

Well theres the description of Prince Yrriel taking the spear that would eventually kill him so that he could save his craft world from an otherwise indestructible hive tyrant. That was in the old Hive War box set for Epic I think. I think it also appears in the newer the Eldar Codex (I don't have my books on me right now).

Then theres the description of Yarrick and Ghazghull (both of those are probably misspelled but hopefully close enough that you know who I'm talking about) duking it out. Also a widely used picture of the colossal ork towering over a scrappy little defiant commissar. Those appear in the Ork codex and the IG codex both, I believe.

Then of course theres virtually the entire 40k line of novels and short stories from the Black Library (even the background information book Xenology focuses on individual people and critters). You should check them out, many of them are quite good. I give you fair warning though that most of them focus on a collection of characters (and their relatively limited in scope activities) as opposed to the Imperium and its political structure in its entirety, so it might not be your cup of tea.

You might be right about the Necron codex though. I'm not too familiar with it, though I hear the individual lords are going to be getting more personality so they may be injecting some into that in the near future.

Dexter · 1 year ago

I have a few problems with special characters, including 'why does everyone's commander now have the same wargear?'

Eugh, by spreading special characters around it makes things so generic and dull in the command section. Also, special characters are too powerful. Way too powerful, compared to your regular guys.

It seems like there isn't any point in taking a regular character anymore, especially after limiting the armory.

sxoa · 1 year ago

Why does everyone's rank and file have the same wargear? Why can't I equip every guardsman with a storm bolter or a las cannon? Because this is the army. You're handed your clothes, your boots and your gun. Its not a trip to the supermarket regardless of whether you're a high rank.

Thats a more fluffy answer, from a crunch perspective theres game mechanics balance to take into consideration.

SteelLegionCommisar · 1 year ago

oh poo... i liked doctrines, they made IG different from the other Imperial armies... my lists are focused around the few doctrines that are free, mainly Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Storm Troopers, Veterans and Heavy Weapons Platoons. Man, this is gonna blow, especially since the time of the new dex's release is right around the time i expect to finish collecting IG

wildTBC · 1 year ago

Sigh! ....2nd edition super characters time is upon us once again ...
all you need now is an army full of lame arse characters with there magical nick-knaks of doom to win because ever other player has them, don't know about you guys but i don't want to have same army as everyone else
i would much rather have the diversity of Doctrine system and the marine traits then ever player in the world have the same 2 most playful characters out of there army list

Cyberdog · 1 year ago

I just hope that they would include Schaeffer and Kage and give a model for Kage..... No, I ask too much....

All shook up · 1 year ago

Any word on whether Ciaphas Cain is one of the characters?

BP · 1 year ago

I realize that at this point it is just rumor that Imperial Guard are going to get the same treatment as the space marine codex, and had a few thoughts on it.

Hopes:
add an auxiliary grenade launcher (sort of like a combi-weapon, the M203 exists, so makes sense, and has a precendent in the FW D-99 and elysian lists)

addition/tuning of doctrines, not their removal.

as far as doctrines go they make more sense than the special character route. the reasoning for this is because of what the imperial guard represent. with space marines it is an elite force with a very defined commander, and a chapter only takes on one major mission at a time which makes the regular appearance of unique heroes reasonable. with guard the same is not true, elements of the same regiment could be in 10 different places, and while heroism may occur, this is already represented with the 'medals' system in the current codex.

if you want a particulary tactically brilliant officer: macharian cross
if you want a sergeant who is particularly heroic: honorifica imperialis
if you want a sergeant/officer who can survive wounds: medallion crimson (like a purple heart of sorts)

similarly, doctrines govern the way a regiment is trained and equipped, much like the modern military has its own system that governs the way specific units are trained, equipped, and fielded.

take for example my own regiment:

doctrines used:
Carapace, Drop Troops, Veterans, Camo, Special Weapon Squads.

the idea is that they are a spec ops force that utilizes some of the best equipment the imperium has to offer in order to complete dangerous, behind-the-line missions.

the reason for taking veterans is because they have more firepower and flexibility than stormtroopers, and can take camo. the special weapon squads all serve as sniper support.

how would I go about doing this as a SC-type army?

given the way the abilities are split through the new SM codex, it is reasonable to assume that the three major doctrines I take would all be on special characters.

one thing that many people forget is that doctrines have restrictive drawbacks for a reason, the primary one being that if you want to take it on one squad, every squad that can must take it (i.e. carapace, if you have one CS take it, everyone who can has to)


really doctrines make the most sense for the IG's anonymity and overall force makeup, and the thought of fielding 9 tanks is simply ridiculous, simply make them able to do what they represent, rather than as the sitting emplacements you have to treat them as to be effective.

TheLuc · 1 year ago

the new models is about time and i'm sure they gonna be great.. on the other hand if they really plan to do it as the SM codex there gonna be some ups and downs, in the case the core of the book is solid enuff the SC issue won't be a trouble as it is in the SM one

the new space marine codex is clearly the first wave of herohammer 40k, i won't talk for anyone but when i convert is to do my own stuff not some copycat of some SC to finish as a count as. as a fact tied to the rules the SC is a big restriction in the end

TSINI · 11 months ago

really, i'm dissapointed with the space marine codex as they should have made a character creator list, like the space marine commander (you can give him what weapons you want for your leader) but they should have made it much more modifiable, (a set of special rules to add, or profile upgrades) but as they chickened out and went for the ultramarines, the space marine commanders are very very specific (the notion of buying the same model and painting it yellow for imperial fists etc makes me shudder at the lack of freedom and imagination and even converting yourown model, but with exactly the same wargear YUCK)

but as has already been said, the guard are a totaly different animal, every commander in the army should be utterly scratch buildable

there are a bazillion commanders of the guard and all the fun is in the collecting, modelling, painting, and the expression on your opponents face when he unvails his small force of blue and yellow marines, and you pull out your commnder standing on a rock thrusting his ornate power sword into the air, and the thousands of men, each individually posed and painted in comouflage. the mud encrusted leman russ, and even the man with a remote control standing next to the cyclops demo tank.

if they dumb down the guard codex to anything near the marines they'll be finding me for one, only playing against people who'll let me use the old codex with the freedom of doctrines and wargear.


a side note for Games Workshop :

just make sure the imperial guard is as personaliseable as it can feasably be for us die hard guard fans!

personaliseable, it wasn't a word till i made it one!

g. · 11 months ago

now you may or may not have noticed a diminishing number of daemon hunter codecies in your local gw's, this as i was clued in to today may be for a well kept secret that is I am implying through information I have recently aquired that (with no gaurentee) a new update for that army

Anonymous · 1 year ago

No more doctrines?

Thank frak.

Those things were absolute crap. Yeah you could have flexibility... and about an million infantrymen, losing all the characterful stuff that made the army worth playing! 5 doctrines, and resctricted troop choices gave you about as much choice as 200 guardsmen with +1 cover save. It sucked, it's now hopefully dead, we can move on.

New model kits sound good. If those rumours bear fruit, I shall be very happy indeed, though my bank balance will hate me.

Phill · 1 year ago

I'm sorry..what? Your saying that removing options and flexibility will INCREASE choice? I do not think that word means what you think it means. How are you supposed to have all the diverse guard regiements represented by the inane TAX of a special character? That's all what this amounts to. Having to buy a 7 pound model to get your regiment's rules. Half of which of won't be wanted anyway because not everbody plays a named regiment. Look at all the regiments in the back of the current guard book. How the hell are we supposed to be able to do stuff like that?

removal of choice =! improvement.

evernevermore · 1 year ago

Who said you had to use the GW model to represent the character? As long as equipment is the same and he looks suitably special I dont see how your opponent can complain, especially if you have converted your army. Remember the game is also about modelling so convert your stuff dont just buy and paint cookie cutter stuff.

Space Machines · 1 year ago

Kinda. You had to take doctrines to be able to take some of the fun stuff in the Guard army, such as Storm Troopers, Ratlings, Ogryns and the like, as well as some of the character types such as Priests. By removing the system it opens up the army list a lot more.

That said, my Catachans will miss their WS4!

ForTheEmperor · 1 year ago

rather, you have to use some of your 5 doctrine points to buy those unit choices back, as any doctrine-less army is free to take any of them

Adrex · 1 year ago

Since in the Dark 41st Millenium there is only Harkonised drop armies or taniths-like regiments with the same doctrine and cadian/catachan bodies, few true imperial guard fluff & characterfull armies.

There isn't the best system, but the doctrine turned in a "drop-granadier-camaleonine-sharpshooter-irondiscipline"-nobrainthingie, at least now we could add more flexibility to our true fluffy army, and I'm talking from my Valhalla red-meat army point of view, lol; I don´t see losing so many things from the doctrines gone, maybe it will be far worse for cc guard, savlar-like, and I don't see light infantry losing their special, Tallarn, Tanith, Catachan and personal regiments, wouldn't be touched too much.

Sorry for spell mistakes.

Space Machines · 1 year ago

cc guard is an oxymoron anyway! there's only one thing guard should do in cc - die, and clog up the advance of the enemy long enough for their friends to shoot them!

Oberst Viktor Morte · 1 year ago

The Death Korps of Krieg would like to have a word with you.

anon · 1 year ago

Guard do a bit better than tau in cc.