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for example- MEQ's???
~Thanks!
As for MEQ, this one I know, it's "Marine Equivalent". It means anything in the game that is exactly like or close to being like Space Marines regarding game statistics. This generally refers to Toughness 4, armor save 3+ type troops.
Here's another one you'll see a lot, ATSKNF, which is shorthand for "And They Shall Know No Fear".
Yeah, yeah, I know Terminators can't claim objectives, etc, and I am certainly not complaining, but there are few things in the game that can stand up to the "new" assualt terminators in HTH.
I am actually glad GW made the Thunder Hammer/SS BADASS again.
Thankyou white Dwarf, I just finally finished my squad of shooty termies, FINALLY.
My sorry old SH + TH forgeworld beaky termies were shelf surfing for so many months of uselessness... I predicted that in order to make the TH + SS combo more worth while, either landraiders would get bigger, or stormshields would get better.
Totally called that one, but 3+ global? AWESOME.
K2vSate? Give us a yell and visit us in wellington ey?
You can switch the lighting claws for hammer and shield and YES!!!!3+save with it
and they can exchange their normal weapons for a thunder hammer and ss combo... so... they have better than a 4+ reg inv save. This is only the assault termies though... and i see what you mean about the high toughness weaponry
This codex is making it look more and more like GW hates DA/BA players changing all this wargear (why does BA/DA PoTMS fire at BS 2 and ultramarines at BS4).
Phil please buddy, FAQ IN THE WARGEAR FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THE BABY KITTENS IN THE WORLD
One of my friends who works there said he didn't know, but that i could spend some quality bonding time with the advance copy the store(he) gets.
I love it. That's all there is to it. You would not believe how thick and heavy it feels in your hands. The artwork is stunning. Both the B&W and colored images. I didn't get to look int actual points costs and new units, as i had limited time with it(10 mins, as my mother(i admit it) has no idea of the extraordinary import of this situation) but all I saw looked great.
Lets hope the next ones are all thick and briming with fluff and nice army choices!
And then Mr. Wallet said, "*sob*"
*giggity!*
The best deal in the book is Capt. Sicarius (More on him in a minute) and the ability to take a 10 man tac squad and "break" it into 2 5-man combat squads that act and are deployed independently of each other. (that's right, 12 5-man troop units can now be deployed across the field and take those objectives!)
Sicarius is a 200 point bad mother! He gets some very nice gear (including 2+ artificer, if I remember correctly) as well as the ability to declare a single tac squad at the start of the game as having tank hunters, furious charge, scout or infiltrate. He also has the ability, if he is on the board, to allow any unit anywhere on the field to use his Leadership (10) when making checks.
Chappys DID keep the ability to give the unit he is attached to a re-roll on misses on the charge though they no longer call it 'litanies of hate'.
Apothecaries can be taken with an honor guard squad and give the unit within (I think it's 5" but I could be wrong) Feel no Pain. That's right bitches, you'll get your 3+ AND a 4+ FNP roll !!
Conversion Beamers are indeed back on techmarines and master of the forge.
AND GW apparently wants you to buy that Masters of the Chapter boxed set as those are the figs they highlight as chapter masters / captains.
(Also, the summary page in the back of the codex is RIDICULOUS!!! SO much goodness you'll need a magnifying glass!!!)
I have been an Smurf since I started playing and am happy to have the latest and greatest.
*Cries* :(
And that asscannon/multimelta/h.flamer Razorbacks are pretty much the same B.S. - apart from taking the SoB Immolator its uniqueness, doesn't it seem to you that, every time a Techpriest of Mars goes to a toilet to take a dump these days, he founds an undiscovered STC on the floor ?!?!
</rant>
As a long term Death Guard player, i'm looking forward to the chance of some tougher marine armies to battle. And am starting a new SM army with the Black Reach set (that i'm getting in an hour!!).
Been discussing the wargear differences in my local GW and the unanimous house-rule seems that DA/BA/BT will be able to use 'smurf rules for weapons etc.
I think the only real problems are going to be tournaments or power gamers.
New codex sounsds beautiful, and new SM will now be closer to the fluff - love it.
On a side note, did anyone notice that inquisition still has an ass. cannon at heavy 3/not rending in the 5th edition rulebook?
...but I think I'll stick with my BA Codex.
On the concept of using the named characters for other chapters besides whatever normal chapter they are part of the fluff I say, poor form poor form in deed. They are supposed to be legendary characters of renowned to their chapter and that chapter alone. If you want to use them play that chapter, if you don't use the generic marine captain and chapter master rules they are strong in their right.
Techmarines can have drop pods if they are attached to a thunderfire cannon from the heavy support choice.
Bikes can be scoring units in the new smurfdex if the captain is on a bike.
Command squads are now only 5 man units and automatically include an apothecary. You still have to purchase a standard and champion for the unit. They can not take any heavy weapons in the unit.
Honor guard are sick. 115pts for a 3 man unit with the option to increase it to 10 a ten man unit for an additional 35 points per model.
The reason to play BA/DA/SW/BT is not because you like the toys solely or because you can exploit the list in more and many unique ways. You should because the back story is cool and the fluff has drawn you in to feel as part a first founding chapter. As for why they don't get the new toys it is easy there are thousands upon thousands of worlds in the Imperium, and space marine chapters get their gear from hundreds or thousands of different forge and manufactum worlds throughout the Imperium so things are going to vary throughout the Imperium. Not everything is the same. Forgeworlds are secretive, as is the mechanicus so why would all things be made equal. The fluff doesn't, it is GamesWorkshops world let them build it and create the parameters for us to work within.
If you are so sore then build a list that will beat my new smurfdex list or convert to the vast legions of smurfs or custom chapters but stop pouting that you can't have your cake and my cake too.
I do have one question from the new codex. For the Legion of the Damned their profile has them with a 3+ save and then they have a special rule I believe that it is called Undying Spirit that says that it is treated as an Invulnerable save as the basic jist of the rule. Do they have just a 3+ Invulnerable save or do they have a 3+ Armour Save and a 3+ Invulnerable Save?
-eddie
GW should have the same rules for the same items across the board.
Sorry to hear that your Baal Preds are no longer relevant.
pfft, keep on talking, weaboo.
Also if you play more challenging missions rather than just pile all your figs on the table and blast, that eliminates a lot of gimick lists and generals who rely on unbalanced lists for their competitive advantage.
I can flank march 45 chosen, with lets say 15 plasma guns, and cause it's me they'd all be toughness five...
the theory crafting can continue till we're blue in the face.
No, becuase I play adults who accept the pay off for your black rages and hand to hand ghastliness is you can't have your cake AND eat it...
The points cost is what keeps it fair.
I could give a hoot about vanguard or sternguard, give me the same wargear as a BA as a Ultraweenie
Also out flanking rhinos are going to be NASTY! Think about it, your whole army outflanks you move 12 pop smokes....then you get out of the rhinos next turn and charge thats pretty much a 26 inch charge range. I am not sure but I think there is also a character that lets you reroll reserves as well :D thats going to be a nasty combo..
I DON'T WANT THE NEW TOYS!
I DON'T WANT THE NEW SC.
I DON'T WANT THE NEW SQUAD RULES!
BUT A LR, LRC, LRR, DP SHOULD BE THE SAME I DON'T WHAT COLOR IT IS PAINTED!!!!!
An M1911A1 will put a .45 hole in something I don't care if it is pink, purple, black, blue, yellow, green or red and white polkadot! (Mines military flat black BTW.) The same principle applies to shared wargear!
Hows this for a responce. Since my BT codex is still 4th ed I'll play according to 4th ed. Would anyone want to play a game under those conditions? NO! Having the gear not be rationalised makes about as much sense!
hmmmm I think you've said something important there. WHat if they aren't all the same? What if the stuff used by the BA/BT/DA is more ancient as they are an older chapter? WHat if the newer chapters shields produce a stronger protective field, but only for a short time, whereas the older generation ones run ad-infinitum but at a lower setting?
With so many planets churning out things, and the decrepit, religion based technology replication, then perhaps this variation is quite, quite valid. If I gave 5 different countries weaponsmiths the pattern for an M1911A1, they may produce something that looks the same, but depending on skill and materials, and experience, the effects will be variable....
Streamline wargear, dont make green colored marine cyclone missile launcher different than red colored marine cyclone launcher
Same thing goes for the Cyclone Missile Launcher. Why would the Ultramarines have a version that fire DOUBLE the rate of the Cyclone available to the other non-codex adhering chapters? Don't you think that the other chapter's techmarines would get jealous and implement their own "double firing" Cyclone? :)
The old BA and DA codexes were written before the re-vamp to the wargear rules. Consequently, there is a rules discrepancy and consequently a points discrepancy too.
40K is ultimately a game, not a simulation, and must be balanced to ensure fairness (even if the balance doesn't quite work - and it never does - to complain is to fall into the "Perfect Solution" fallacy.)
Now wargear DOES equal wargear does equal wargear... but not all Marines are equal. The BA and DA and the rest of the non-codex chapters have marines with radically different rules to regular marines. Therefore, their wargear requires a different points cost.
However, they only release one codex at a time; the non-conformist chapters are "special", and must wait for one of their own. Given the nature of business, it makes more sense to work on other stuff than re-jigging recently released codexes (SW, Necrons, DE, take your pick of Stuff That's Had Less Love Than Your Esoteric Chapter).
So wait. Eventually, they will re-release rules that bring your chapters into line with the current SM codex, with adjusted points. Until then, keep the perspective that It's Just A Game.
If you want more consistency within rules then you really have three options: 1.) do your own rules 2.) wait 3.) moan.
One of those options gives you instant results, one might not work, and one leads nowhere. Take your pick.
There is no logical reason why a thunder hammer and storm shield combo should offer different protections for each chapter.
In second edition, the storm shield was needed to protect the wielder of the thunder hammer from the recoil/explosion; essentially from being KNOCKED DOWN from the thunderous blast from the hammer impact.
In later editions, the storm shield's importance was downplayed significantly.
I have no problem with certain codex chapters having slightly tweaked weaponry (specialized weaponry for each chapter), but it's incredibly stupid to come up with ANY reason why the DEATHWING would not have 3+ saves for their storm shields, but Ultramarines would.
What is the point of being able to run a whole army of terminators via Deathwing or Wolf Guard, if they are outmatched by the weaponry of the standard, plain jane terminators?
The new SM codex is points costed for the new rules; the old DA one isn't.
Why is that so hard to understand?
People keep saying "It doesn't make sense; there's no reason!" wehn it does make sense, and there IS a reason, it's just a real-world "This is a game played with little bits of plastic" reason, rather than a "well, if we assume one rule for one it MUST apply to all other things!"
No it musn't! Each army is points-costed differently. A DA with Fearless will benefit MUCH more from a Storm Shield with 3+ unmodifiable save than a bog standard Marine without Fearless.
However, the DA will pay the same price in points?! COME ON!!! This is about balance. You'll see new codices with these new rules applied to the fruity chapters. Just in a while...
Its the fucking digital age, write a faq and put it on the website.
by your logic. the cost of single terminators would need to go up to compensate for the increased storm shield cost. Land Raiders are also the same points, but have a larger transport capacity.
Telling others to wait 5 years to receive new stuff you just got is wrong, the same weapon should have the same stats
-eddie
The same named equipment is often different between original and licensed manufaturers. The world of W40K is much the same in background fluff.
And yet, they do have standardized gear in the codex. A lasgun is a lasgun, and a Leman Russ is the same, and its heavy stubber shoots the same distance and its battlecannon is always an ordnance weapon, 5" blast at BS3 (baring AC lists and variants). Ryza, Mars, Gryphonne IV; Valhallen, Cadian, Tallarn; it doesn't matter. The differences aren't represented on the table-top.
As an aside, the whole "some chapters are older" is ridiculous. Salamanders and Ultramarines are to be played from the new Marine Codex, BT have another Codex. Who is First Founding and who is a successor chapter? Think hard.
Not that I care, as I won't be playing Marines. I do, however, support the idea that if a Landraider can move and fire at full BS, all of them should, especially Grey Knights Landraiders. If a vehicle or piece of wargear is called the something, it should operate as everything else called that same thing does. Otherwise, call it something else.
But the whole argument is to miss the point, there may or may not be an update. I've been told Phil Kelly is often wrong about things. Even if there isn't not all of us have seen the point costs and done the math. Terminators may not cost more but you can't get all the spiffy weapons in only a 5 man squad, I believe DA can. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.) If a saw right Storm Shields went up in cost or larger squad sizes were required to use. I don't remember all of it, since I had exactly one minute to read it at my local GW.
BTW Did your chaplain get nerfed to 4BS 2A and 2W? People are bitching about standardization, why are our chaplains wussy and others not?
Btw, My Chaplain? I'm afraid I don't play an army with Chaplains. Irrelevant point. Without a "dog in the fight", so to speak, I feel I can be a bit more objective in my opinion. I don't really care which of the Marines are cooler/better/faster/have-more-RAM. I just think it a bit off to have multiple things called the same, but functioning differently.
Imagine it wasn't the Stormshield, or the Cyclone launcher. What if it were something more ubiquitous, like the Bolter. What if everyone else's bolters were normal, but in the new C:SM, they were 24" Assault 2. Would every other army with bolters listed as Rapid Fire be upset? Yes. It would be the same situation. The only difference is we're talking about other pieces of wargear, but the premise is the same.
Oh im sorry getting drunk is more mature huh?
But expressing your creativitiy through models, and having more, healthier fun, is oh so immature...
That being said i really Hope that GW has some guy who is smart enough to see all of these unhappy Marines and be like (we cant fuck over our customer base) lets FAQ all of these Codecies
thats my to cents
DA/BA pay more for most units at the end. (regarding free equipment and better items). And Bikes are scoring units in C:SM aswell, DA have to pick a special character to get them, too; same with termis, but that the only think the C:SM codex did not get.
And in general the answer for an update was: there will be none.
New shiny units? Ok, cool, big whoop, whatever. I'm fine with an alternate organization of stuff. I doubt I'd use a Thunderfire Cannon or whatever anyway. I'll take my BA Veteran Assault Squad or my Deathwing. The Razorback options annoy me a tad, but I'll deal. I suspect we'll see more Razorbacks anyway.
Though for all you claiming that "Oh, it's perfectly fair, logical, and balanced" that a Storm Shield is not always a Storm Shield, and in some cases a Storm Shield is really an uber-hoss Iron HAlo...give me a break. Be perfectly honest with yourseves. If I could give my BA Terminators a 2+/3++ statline with a storm shield and a Codex: Space Marines was stuck with a 2+/5+ and a 4++ in melee, would you be saying fair and balanced? If my BA Cyclones were heavy 2 or so, or my guys got free heavy weapons, would you say fair/balanced?* If our machine spirit could fire at BS4 and yours couldn't, what would you say?
I don't really expect GW to FAQ it. Considering that Grey Knights are still stuck with a Heavy 3 assault cannon, no, not really. But let's be honest. Would you like it? No, you wouldn't. Don't go on about how people should just shove it and accept it because it favors you, for now.
But as a BA/DA player, I'm not at all thrilled about it. Standardize the wargear. Please. That's all we ask. It's also going to confuse the crap out of people. "...wait, aren't storm shields a 3++ save all around?"
"...no. Ours are red."
*I'll admit that with the points increase, a 10-man squad has actually paid for its heavy weapon. That says nothing for whether or not a Sarge is included automatically.
**your plasma weapon costs have been brought in line with others, at least.
Don't get me wrong, I do play Marines (Custom Chapter in 4th) and I'll be benefitted from these. But in short these stuff aren't pleasing me.
Yeah, Marines shoudl be powerful by fluff, and yeah, their previous performances are pretty subpar......But I didn't expect stuff like these: Nearly unkillable Objective-denying unit that murder most units in CC with the SAME cost as before, those Ravenwing-like Troop units that can homer muder squads that can DS on charge (which even DW/Daemons can't), cheaper-than-Deathwatch Sternguards that can get all 4 types of ammo, PotMS moves from a nice gimmick to an OP ability and overrides the core rules WITHOUT penalty.......Yuck.
Did I mention some of teh new gimmicks for Marines are actually using other armies' speciality, while the being-copied armies aren't having a good boost (I'm looking at you, DA) to compensate that? At the very least, sticking to fluff is one thing, game-balancing is another. "Expect a cost increase"? From the present cost of these units I don't think their point costs justify their abilities.
Still, I'll keep playing 40K even when facing these stuff. But I'm sure that I won't enjoy games that much like before with Marines (which will certainly become more popular), either using or against them.
Blood Angels, beyond fluff, have about three things going for them that are close to distinct:
1) The Death Company
2) Baal Predator
3) 5-man squads that can take a special.
4) Assault Marines as troops
I don't mind that the marines get a lot of cool HQs. Frankly, they kind of needed it.
Nevermind what I said about my Veteran Assault squad. They're not really hot stuff any more.
Furiosos, beyond their ability to get 'Venerable', are better than Ironclads only in that they are a bit cheaper. (125 for Venerable w/ Heavy Flamer vs. 135 base and the 13/13/10 armor).
The VAS is simply outclassed in terms of options.
What do the DA have distinctive?
The Deathwing. The Ravenwing is (as much as it was ever a competitive build, but in the hands of some...) more or less out, as any commander can now take bikes as troops. The RAvenwing are just the fearless, less flexible cousin of that. Anyone wanting to play the DA without making heavy use of the 'Wings had better just forget it, since there's really no advantage.
This'll apply for DA and BA...
The cost cuts on the Razorbacks (hey, for some reason the bog-standard heavy bolter model is cheaper) and standard Dreadnought are still a bitter pill to swallow. The tactical squads don't really bother me. The cost cuts on the Predator and Landspeeder are just plain insulting to us.
The new and improved Power Of the Machine Spirit is another kick in the bollox.
To be perfectly honest, it feels like right now the ONLY warm and fuzzy a BA/DA player gets right now is playing fluffy.
Let me be clear on this. I'm not clamoring to make the BA/DA dexes overpowered. I don't honestly think they ever were. But compared to the new Marine codex, there are scant few competitive reasons to play either of them.
Even before this, they could take two powers. However, you will notice that they cannot USE both powers in a turn.
It still takes a hero-level psyker to use multiple powers in a turn. Mephiston is one of them, and Tigurius is the other. In general*, Eldar are still better Psykers.
*unless some of the new powers really are that nasty, but it's hard to deny the sheer utility of Doom/Guide/Fortune.
Oh and i met him yesterday too and also got his signature.
Yes at the moment, wargear is not fair imho....but they had to start it somewhere, either that or release all SM chapters at the same time.
There has to be a start to the change, and your seeing it, and you say there wasnt an advantage for other chapters previously??
as an example BA: drop pods you can fire out of and didnt have to leave
mephisty...free codex....
cheaper attack bikes with multimeltas, the troops are more expensive cause your paying for a death company member, and dont get me started on the vet assault squad and the furioso, we bit our tounge because it wasnt our fluff but were envious,
So you see there are always ups and downs, and at the moment there is alot of ups with the ultras, ive been ultra for 6 years now, first 40k army i started with, and you know the only people i dont hear complaining about this is??
Space wolves...they know their codex will be updated soon, as should you all look forward to getting a new shiny codex which will have all the smurfs have and much more that no doubt we will be envious about
As a DA player, I don't want smurf gear. I would like very much for it to be fair, but it is what it is. last night when I spoke with the owner of my local shop, he said there are rumors that DA will be posted in an online series like the BA. : / which i'm personally not a fan of.
Also, Salamanders are now one of the new big 4 chapters, which IMO contradicts previous fluff that they are a fairly small chapter with no anti-grav or jump packs, and lots of flame/heat related weapons. I was looking through pics in the new codex, and they have Salamander assault troops, in direct contradiction with the info in that old book, Index Astartes IV.
Both the chaplain and librarian base cost it's 100pts and the psi-hood it's nerfed and even without the nerf the uber cheap farseer stones that make roll on 3D6 and add them that's the ones overpowered and extremely underpriced and on top of that wihtout range.
Also tigurius it's 230pts with a patetic statline (same as new librarians) and without inv save. It's a match for the 3 big ones in the psiquic powers as Eldrad, Ahriman and Mephiston could all use 3 powers a turn and know all the powers from it's respective races.
But... those 16 pts also gets me free specials/heavies... so I STILL end up a bit cheaper than I used to for a standard tac squad. Vet sgts would be the only worry... are they 31 or 32pts before wargear upgrades.
90+80 = 170 to get a squad with a flamer and missile launcher, sgt with BP/CCW. Couple that with combat tactics and some of the other goodies named characters give you, your army will be a lean mean fighting machine.
Mind you as BA i pay 205 for that same squad, but hey I get "free" death company am I right?
Now it looks like it's going to be like the BA/DA setup. it's still cheaper in the new dex than it was in the old for the same gear.
But yeah, codex marines end up being able to pack just a few more guys into the list or upgraded elites.
I'll qualify what I say by admitting I am an Ultramarine hobbiest from the start. It is not my only army (Guard, Chaos Marines). But the reality of "standardization" of wargear between the Marine chapters is that it has never existed (LR crusader, Baal Predator, Space wolves have the leman russ exterminator, Dark angels with cheaper rhino/ better whirlwhind, furioso dreadnought etc). This list goes on. These units are not / were not always, available to all the dex lists for one reason or another (the biggest reason I've heard was fluff===whatever it might be). BUT the reality of this hobby is "change." GW has continuously changed, and advanced the hobby mainly by generating interest in this exact way: new edition of rules and army lists. For all you angry BA/DA/BT and others,.....this will never go away. And there it is..
With that said. Everyone in the hobby has been the beneficiary and the whipping boy at sometime during these changes. For those of you who want to cry foul that you want your land raider to carry just as many troops as someone else's......you have to explain why only blood angels can have furioso-dreadnoughts. You'll argue fluff dicates it. Try explaining why supercharged engines on rhinos aren't standard (why not on a chimera?), and you'll say the same thing. That is not a real justification for it. Those of you in the hobby for a long time know the fluff has always said marine chapters have always had their supplies provided to them by their independent sources, and these sources are arranged by the chapters themselves (agreements from neighboring systems for example). Baal just doens't make a better landraider (I'm just teasing) than others :) (probably not a good enough explanation for you, but true...look it up).
You doomsayers/sky is falling marine players, relax.....you'll look at your lists, and you'll survive. You'll stay in the hobby and you'll feel alright in the next few months. You may cry foul again if you lose a game to the new dex (and you know you're a "gamer" type), but even then you might just decide not to play at worst. GW will make its money and will continue to thrive. In a couple of years you'll have your new codex BA/BT/DA, and your complaints will fall silent ..again (hypocracy). You're still special. $GW$ still loves you too.
Space Wolves...ignore the above..you guys should be writing your state congressperson for a new codex at this point :).
For you vanilla/ultramarines.....don't EVEN try to justify the new codex....just enjoy it while it lasts :).
For the 40k'ers in general, congrats on another good looking codex. I can't wait to see what the new Dark Eldar/ TAU/ Guard codex will be like if this is an indicator of the new direction GW is going in.
I not trying to offend anyone with this post. If i have I sincerely apologize.
I just thought we could use a little straight-talk on the matter.
keep the dice rollin'
Scout Sniper
As an omnissiah-o-phile, I'm concerned about the text regarding servitors. Units of servitors cost 10 points for one, but then +15 points per model after the first? Is that a typo, so that servitors are really 10 points for one then 10 points per model to add more? It seems, well, EXTREMELY odd.
It's also clear that servitors can be bought as an extra unit if you get a thunderfire, since the thunderfire clearly comes with a techmarine, but it's not clear if that unit of servitors can augment the techmarine in the artillery unit. Odd as well, yes?
RTM
Hurr!
Haven't the time to read all the above, but it's interesting to note that in the latest UK White Dork (the one with free terminator and ork) they had a useful little tip for converting the free terminator into a cyclone termi using leftover cyclone bitz from the terminator sprue.
Mind you, it's nothing on the 12" blast template or catastrophic launch cyclone options from 2nd edition!
- Drax
Space Marines are still 15 points, but adding extras (dunno why) is +16 ea.
cause u get 4 marines and a Vet
(15x5) + (15 terminator honours)
BTW, the new codex Cyclone missile launchers are not Heavy 2,
they are still Heavy 1.
Except now they fire a Cyclonic Torpedo.
"Shooting the Cyclonic Torpedo now...."
*rolls to hit*
"I, WIN."
;p
-Sons of Russ
cyclonic torpedo is the *IWIN* button in each new marine list
New codex is WIN! Twin linked powerfists and servoharness on a bike hoo rah!
When will it be CODEX: Ultramarines, and not CODEX Space Marines, because its quite clear to everyone that The Smerfs arnt the begining and end for the Space Marines, christ Roboute didnt even anywhere close to the victories of Johnson, Russ, Lupercall.
Also I've played Ultramarines since 2n edition and they only get some love at the 4th edition; before Space Wolfes, Blood Angels and Dark Angels get much more love than the utlramarines.
The ultramarines legion was the one that brought more planets to the light of the emperor in the great cruseade (and left the planets better equiped and aoutomous). Ultramarines itselfs almost conquered the whole ultima segmentum (the bigger one).
Rules wise will be a bad decision upgrade some of the wargear of the other chapters specially in things like storm shields on terminators scoring units (dark angels). Some other wargear wouldn't be a problem but GW would not take the time to recost these codex to adapt the wargear and cost until it releases a v2 or a newer one.
And of course most of those chapters only want the good things but will moan if it's hood it's also "upgraded" to new SM standard.
Have you read all the posts here from DA/BA players?
WE DON'T WANT YOUR SHINY NEW TOYs, OK?
Here, I'll repeat that since you're retarded.
WE DON'T WANT YOUR SHINY NEW TOYS!
Why is it a bad decision to give us the same wargear? We we still pay more in the long run after the list is made. A CML is a CML is a CML, no matter if its painted Ultra-smurfs blue or Dark Angels Green.
Really, it is NOT too much to ask to get the same wargear.
And what idiot would take a DW army of all Storm Shields? The best way to take down Termies these days is with high rate of fire weapons, we won't get to use the 3+ save. Not to mention they will never shoot at you because they have NO GUNS, and will always GO LAST in CC. That army will lose.
But before I go, let me repeat the key point of my post.
WE DON'T WANT YOUR SHINY NEW TOYS!
Ummm Lupercall? and what chapter are they again?? Oh yeah... that's the warcry of a traitor legion from a crappy novel series... I'm sure the Black Legion likes the plug, but you need to go back to reading
second... so all you ppl dont want the shiny new toys,... i think you should get some of them.... i also blv that the wargear shud be standardized....
im a C:SM player and I will say this... ultramarines ARE the SM studs of the Imperium...
and some ppl say that points cost would radically change if the wargear was standardized.. not in my opinion it wouldnt, considering that the new stuff is costed the same as in existing divergent codexes.
i totally agree with a previous poster. you want your cake and MY cake too
please tell me where it's written in the rules that all SM chapters and BA/BT/DA must have the exact same wargear. the rules will say that vanilla SM players will have some wargear unigue to them. thats it. accept it and be a man about it you wuss sucking leeches.
i truly believe the BA/DA/BT guys that are whining are most likely 14 year olds who are just little spoiled jackholes that want all the rules to benefit them so they can feel better about themselves. so they can proclaim "I rulez teh table bichez"
i will refuse to play any non codex player who comes to me with the garbage of "hey i want to play using YOUR wargear AND still have the advantages and unique aspects of my BA/BT/DA"
rolls eyes
some of the complaints are justified.... I am a codex marine player myself... and I think when it comes down to the basics, all chapters should have the same wargear... SM/SW/BA/DA/BT should all have storm shields that give 3+ invul save and that all the LRs should be capacity 12 and LRC's capacity 16 and so on...
a lot of the divergent players don't want the new units and special rules and all... they just want a standardization across the board for the same equipment.
This is exactly the reasoning they don't seem to understand. Reading through the threads you can definitely see the "that's not fair" attitude. I think what is lacking among those BA's/ DA's/ whoevers is the perception that this "hobby" does not reflect real-life and certainly never claims to uphold some gamer/ hobbiest's code of justice. It may appear to at times. You could argue the "GW powers that be" are trying to make things fair, but the reality at the end of the day is that this is a business that wants to stay in business. Marines have always been the cash-cow and have always generated the $, and as such you have the new codex.
This is not new. This has happened with EVERY release of a new edition of 40K. 3rd edition's released was flanked by a brand new Blood Angel Codex which GW admitted was overpowered. There was an explosion of new BA armies as a result. Was this wrong? Did it matter?
This is the nature of the hobby that is 40K. Yes it could be better. No it will probably never be fair. Complete balance within this GAME has never been achieved. This is not the first time your crisis has occurred and trust me,...it won't be the last. Welcome to the hobby that is 40K.
Now I know what many will say about my comment. And I do sympathize with those who are annoyed. Everyone that has been the hobby long enough hates it when 40K has to change (even if it mean another army gets boosted or dumbed down). The reality is that the sky is not falling, GW will make it's money, and life goes on.
But for now,.....word from GW is BA/DA/BT codexes are "stand alone" only.
Maybe we should call this codex what it is.....Codex: Ultra/White scars/Raven Guard/salamanders, complete with unique wargear. Would that make everyone feel better?
Ahhh to be 14 years old again....
Scoutsniper
Scoutsniper"
I got news for you buddy, but the vast majority of the 14 year olds are the ones using the vanilla SM codex.
The majority of BA/DA players are those of us who've been playing since Rogue Trader and Space Hulk, because those are the armies we are nostalgic about. None of the kids want to play BA/DA because we get less goodies, so they go to
Codex: ULTRASUPERAWESOMEMARINES so they can be totally super awesome, because if theres one things kids love, its having the most powerful/coolest/hippest thing.
And don't we know it, thats C:SM.
So don't you, or anyone else, insinuate that players of DA and BA are a bunch of 14 year olds, I'd bet my life's savings that the number of kids playing DA and BA are a fraction of those who use C:SM.
And if you are trying that the reason this is happeninig is because its a business move intended to make money, then you clearly have no idea how business works. If this is such a GREAT BUSINESS MOVE, then why the $%&* would GW leave out FOUR CODEXES WORTH OF PLAYERS out in the cold? How could they possibly concieve that making it so almost all of the new releases are totally useless to FOUR CODEXES WORTH OF PLAYERS, is a great business move? Are they trying to alienate thousands of potential customers?
Really, at first, I was happy that C:SM was getting some love, and I bet most DA/BA players were glad too. We just want the same wargear, we're ok with not getting new units. Really, we are.
But then we ask for the same rules and suddenly a large portion of C:SM players are up in arms!
"ZOMG YOU CAN'T HAS THE SAME RULEZ AS ME! YOU AREN'T SPACE MARINE!!!"
Yes, we are. Yes, we *#$%ing are!
We're the Dark Angels, the FIRST %$#@ING LEGION!
We're the Blood Angels, our Primarch fought Horus!
We're the Space Wolves, the sons of Russ, the greatest fighter in history!
And now we're to be told, that little Jimmy's LORDS OF SUPER DEATH KILLING Chapter of Space Marines', gets to use a CML that fires 2 rockets, and the three chapters that have been around since the birth of the Imperium do not? Three of the most successful and best supplied chapters in the Imperium? (And don't even try to argue against that, they've lasted 10,000 years.)
GIVE ME A BREAK.
GW has succeded in alienating a huge chunk of its customers, and some of the players using C:SM have succeded in showing the WH:40k community what greedy little wankers they are.
So please, why don't you go crowd around Codex: Greedy Pieces of Sh_t,
and circle jerk to the wargear, IC, and Army List sections. Don't forget the tissues.
Pull your head out of your ass and go dry your tears. Quit making bullshit, braindead statements backed by air that smells of whiney bitch.
You need a faq to use common sense? If the new codex makes you quit the friggin game, I say good. One less whiney crybaby that can't think on their own.
EVERY single 40k rulebook since Rogue Trader tells you to use WHAT YOU WANT from the book, house rule shit you want changed and get on with the game. I can't think of any reasonable opponent that will tell you Dark Angels have fatter asses than Ultramarines.
'A vast majority..." going by your posts, you're one of the 12 year olds I see with crayola colored Baal Predators. Get a grip, get over it, and stop crying, noone cares. Go play emo marines in the basement and tell yourself it'll be alright
Most of you won't understand the documents to which i refer not having been on the earth that long, and apparently want to win before you reach the table purely on the basis of your list selection. And I stand by my earlier coment, Mephiston is gayer than Dale Winton. Not that that makes him a bad person, just a bit of a wrong'un for a librarian.
Of course they do. They're getting a new model kit. And it's not like they could've made Scout Bikers any worse!!!
BYE
I've helped build a store sample of the Drop Pod and held the Land Raider Redeemer as well. They are exciting models. The other stuff coming looks great too and I'm extremely pleased with Assault On Black Reach and the models withn it. All this great new stuff is too much fun to be too down about comparing the new Codex to the few that came just before it, in spite of the fact that I have both Chaos Marine and Dark Angels armies.
Also, Thunderhammer/stormshield terminators are 40pts each, just as they are now.
Vanguard vets that can assault from Deep Strike and have an extra attack over Chaos Raptors are the *exact* same price as Chaos Raptors, and have no restrictions on how many can be taken.
The Vindicator is 10pts *CHEAPER* than it is in the DA/CSM books, but also auto-passes terrain tests.
Balance? In this codex? I think not. At least not compared with any of the newer SM books.
The Master of the Forge offers to take Dreads as Elite and/or Support... any kind of dread or only the "normal" ones?
And yes, of course I could wait, but I want to know if I need 10 or 20 Terminators for my upcoming army (damn, 11 years of gaming, and finally I'm going to play marines.... )
1) Are Vanguard Veterans an ELT or FST choice?
2) Can I no longer have Reclusiam and Librarium Command Squads? That's going to force me to modify my chapter fluff a bit....
So far the rumours are good. I hope some of these new toys will give me a fighting chance against this Tau player I have as my recurring opponent.
i did not see options for reclusiam/librarium command squads... but wth... a few conversions here and there... a few minor rules modifications here and there... voila... u got them!
not because of the rules but the loss of the reason behind our army, i recently looked through the codex at my local and couldn't help but feel sad.
As a Blood Angel player we got certain things to go with our fluff and it was cool un til now.
what did we have:
1) Honour Guards
2) Furioso dreadnaughts
3) Death company
4) Veteran Assault Squads
5) Assault Squads as troops
6) Overcharged Baals
8) Overcharged rhinos
all good stuff but now but now
C:SM has honour guards as well as command squads with relic blades, alot better
you can now have furioso dreadnaughts as well as ironclad dreadnaughts
we still have death company which is cool, not so great anymore but still a beast so cool
well, you have veteran assault squads that are fast attack options so don't even take up valuable elite slots
your assault squads are insanely cheap now, an assualt orientated chapter with assult squads that are far more expensive
baal predators but when you can field 2 baal razorbacks for the same points which can also carry troops, somethings gone wrong
we have overcharged rhinos for 10 more points which i guess is fair but still harsh, its fluff though so i'm happy to keep it.
what i'm trying to point out is that it feels like the bloodangels have lost there heart and fluff, the whole set up of the army to fit in with the fluff is now better seen in the standard codex and i think thats why people are getting up set
space marines should get new stuff and new rule, but did they have to steal nearly everything that made BA BA and DA DA
Sicarius is WS6 BS5 S4 T4 I5 W3 A4 LD10 200 Points.
Has a power sword which he can choose to make 1 attack with at S6 causing Instand Death. Also has artificer armour that gives him feel no pain.
If anybody is interested....
Also Shrike is only 195 points and he's a beast!
I normally play Eldar against a Tyranid opponent, so I am already very used to being outnumbered and paying a high price for individual units. Infact my only concern now is that the new marines are going to end up a bit too much like my Eldar, with small units specifically tailored to certain roles on the battlefield, but I suppose that depends on how I configure the army more than anything. I have a reall soft spot for basic infantry (hence my Eldar are painted as Ulthwe, and contain lots of guardians), so I expect most of my marine army will be made of infantry.
The new Ironclad dreadnought in particular sounds great. Does anyone know if there is going to be a new model released for it ? or whether it will be left for conversion opportunity instead.
I read in an earlier post that someone saw that the multimelta is now the new standard Dreadnought armament, and you have to pay extra points to get an Assault cannon. I hope that is not true. I read in WD that the basic GW dreadnought kit doesn't come with a multi-melta, which is why they wanted to have one in the AoBR kit (I haven't bought a dread yet so I don't know if this is correct). If this is true, I wonder if GW will change the dreadnought kit ? It seems a bit bizarre that the only weapon missing in the standard dread box is the default army list weapon.
- Chaplains can no longer have lightning claws at all O.O
- Chaplains can no longer have jump-packs O.O (not sure about this one though)
- Terminators and Command Squads can no longer take veteran skills like Furious Charge, Tank Hunters, Infiltrate
- In a command squad, any veteran can take special weapons like flamers, meltaguns, or storm bolters and what not....
- A full squad of Assault Marines with no upgrades costs a dirt cheap 190 points O.O WTFH????????
- since when in the name of the Emperor did SM take digital weapons, which have always been a province of Inquisitors, considering most digital weapons are xeno archaeotech originally.
like seriously, some of the cries of marines being broken seem to be justified (I am a Space Marine player with 10k points) while some of the better options from the list have been taken out.... i'm miffed most about my chaplain no longer having lightning claws...
who the hell wrote this codex??? some of the options just plain don't make sense even from fluff pov.... i've never read of a command squad toting 5 meltaguns or storm bolters or wtv.....
I might cry now, didn't know any of this.
Im just glad i managed to get the codex ordered! WOOOOOOOT!!!!
Cheap assault marines are awsome, but im not sure its too good for us Tau players!
And apparently the commander has lots of options, can someone name a few great ones?
Thanks Guys.
he comes with a bolter and bolt pistol?
all the standard stuff...
of and one important thing: NO MORE TERMINATOR HONOURS AND PURITY SEALS... BYE BYE +1 Attack!!!
First, I am sure GW has multiple good reasons for making stuff different in different codexs. they will have playtested them many times, and are sure that it is not that unfair, it is just different.
Second, if a BA/DA/SW/BT player is that annoyed, why doesn't he/she just play that army using the regular SM rules. use the same models, and tough cookies. as no player would do that, then I am not sure why they are complaining, as they are happier with their current list.
finally, I think this codex is great. I only wish GW would show the heresy armies some love. It is a best selling series, and with the exception of this site, there are no rules, even close to official.
I noticed auspex were gone. shame, I really liked the cheap price and the fact it kept infiltrators well away from my squads. Hellfire rounds for characters is nice, but really the aux grenade launcher is power/artificer armour only? Come on. That weapon would be an excellent addition to a terminator captain. In fact, I have an old termie capt. with one mounted on the back of a power fist...
So there is no upgrade for sergeants to veteran as they are considered vets already. Fine. No real choice wargear wise for them is a shame.
But I do like the idea behind special characters and the fact white dwarf may get more of them....
Some of this looks really good some of this.
16pts a marine isn't a bad thing (well i play BT so im used to it).
I agree, in theory, it's all more or less the same, and it's kinda bogus that it doesn't work that way. But, if GW were to update some of the wargear, they would have to update some point values, and stat lines, etc. - and that would pretty much be a new codex.
Now, in a friendly game, I'd probably let my DA friend use a LRR, or have Heavy 2 cyclones (for more points, maybe). That's a friendly game though, in a tourney, I'd expect my opponent to use their RAW, and I would hope that my opponent wouldn't expect anything diffferent (OK, I'd probably let DH use the Hvy 4 Rending Assault Cannon, they need the help).
The reason they're not going to issue FAQ's is that it's not as simple as "Use the 2008 Codex: Space Marines (Hurr!) for the following items: Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, Land Raiders and all variants, Razorbacks and all variants, etc."
I don't know about you, but I don't want to see my BA friend fielding 3 Baal Predators and another 6-8 Razorbacks with twin AC. And I don't want to see a BT army with 30 assault marines armed with storm shields (with a few power fists thrown in for good measure).
Hey, I feel for DA, BA, and BT players. But it is what it is. You're free to use the new SM and have green, red, or black and white marines. In fact, you can even use the CSM codex and have renegade and extra-spiky (and more skull-covered) green, red, or black and white chaos marines!
Stop crying about what is fair or not fair to you. It's a freaking game! Think about what is fair for your opponent, and if it's not clear what you should be using - offer to use the most restrictive rules. It's about having fun, not designing the uber-death-army and having fun at others expense.
And yes, I would take the good with the bad. Nerfed scouts (even if they stayed elites), nerfed Chaplains, nerfed Librarians (combined with the DA powers you will never, ever, ever see Librarians again), more expensive marines and so on.
If anything, DA and BA can be incorporated into the big book, much like the Chaos Codex. Add some special characters here and there and you're done.
Like so:
Azarael (Master stats, same rules otherwise)-allows something Dark Angely in exchange for combat tactics (stubborn? intractable?), all Termies/Bikes exchange combat tactics for Fearless, Scouts, etc.
Belial (Captain stats, relic blade)-Makes Terminators exchange combat tactics for Fearless, make them Troops, limits squad size, and allows one Apoth/Standard
Sammael (Captain stats, nifty jetbike or speeder)-Makes Bike Squadrons Troops and they exchange combat tactics for Scouts and locater beacons (Fearless?), allows Apoth/Standard
Asmodai/Sapphon (current Interrogator-Chaplain stats)-some rule reflecting the hunt for the fallen or a feared reputation
Ezekiel (Libby stats)-Weaken Resolve/FotD
There, you've successfully incorporated the DA Codex into the marine book while still maintaining the importance of the chapter. You could probably even take out Belial and Sammael in favor of using a Bike mounted Captain and a Terminator Captain making Terminators Troops.
Same could work for BA, BT, and even SW. That way the marines are done justice with a suitably beefy book, we have less marine releases and get other races done, and we open up a new way to make themed armies: Using special characters to promote variant lists. You could even bring out optional rules in WD to do the same for other armies (especially Chaos).
u wanna buy a book that expensive? sure be my guest....
u wnna carry that thick of an armybook? sure be my guest....
and why are you all being whiny abt the new codex? PK said at GDLA that there will be no FAQ's for the units iirc.... that does not rule out an FAQ for wargear, or a white dwarf update for the other 3 marine books (SW are getting a codex soon)....
if all marine armies are the same on the basic level then whats the fun playing them? so you want a Death-Raven army with Stern-Van thrown into the mix, with 4 LR's?
YES: one terminator squad in the army can choose a LR as a dedicated transport.
so you want a BA assault army that takes AM's as troops, VAS and jump-pack DC as elites and Vanguard for fast attack, and Baal Predators and LRRs??? oh look, i massacre u in assault. oh look, i massacre you in shooting. what a balanced game isnt it?
so you want a BT army with emperor's champ, 20-man troop choices, Stern-Van, cheaper MM bikes, LRC and LRR, and oh look, we are ALL FEARLESS with our vows!!! perfectly balanced game....
(I may have made some errors in the examples above since I'm not familiar with how BT/BA/DA work exactly, but I do hope that the point gets across)
for all the complainers abt not getting the new options and what not - you can do things, either ask opponent's permission abt using the new wargear rules, or just suck the new codex up until u get a redo. you can't have all the new things, and a divergent codex that made u much superior to basic marines in 4th ed at the same time.
As it is, this Codex is taking a lot of things away from the supposedly unique chapters and leave them with very little. DA have Fearless Terminators and Scouting Bikes, BA have Vanguard without Heroic Intervention that use up an elite slot, Baals, and mandatory DC. Everything else goes to new marines, often with more options and for cheaper. That's lame.
As for mix and match, you can do that with the book anyway. Marneus and Kantor make for scoring Sterns and stubborn across the board plus choosing to pass or fail all Ld tests. It looks balanced because all that stuff costs a lot of points and a decent sized army can't possibly incorporate it all. By adding in the BA/DA characters you open up more options for marine players (gamers, DIY-er, DA/BA purists), keep things consistent.
Not looking for a game advantage, I would like to have ==My== Codex not made virtually obsolete only a year after its release.
ur telling me that BA/DA/BT codexes can be rendered down to 10 pages of info? i dont know abt any1 else, but i wud find it insulting if that happened...
each codex is unique in its own way... we regular marines have some advantages over you right now... what you basically want is all those advantages plus the ones you already get... death-raven, death company, 20-man troops and god knows what else....
i hate to say this but you sound like a whiner if you think your "4th ed." repeat "4th ed" is out of date.... SW/Necrons/IG/BT have even older codexes... are they not obsolete?
and why are you all being biased towards regular marines anyways? you guys all get cool stuff in ur codexes that we didnt have in 4th ed... seems like ur looking for the ROYALE WITH CHEESE here... forget it dude... codex marines needed something definitive that clearly set them apart from all you divergent guys... and we got it... it happens to be better than what you have at the moment so you feel the terrible, gnawing urge to complain and whine about it.... got only one thing to say --- suck it up and shut up or get out of the hobby if you cant handle it.....
and personally, i wud like to see you try to incorporate 5 codexes into 1 (C:SM, BA/DA/BT/SW)
Says on the cover : "Revised and updated for the 5th edition of Warhammer 40,000"
Instead, I'll enjoy all the abuse I can get out of the current SW and new SM codex.
sure, i guess when i look back and re-read the BT codex, we get lots of special rules, such as drop pod assault even if its not listed, etc etc. and i guess i was pretty irked/angry that some of the war gear are totally different. as mentioned in an earlier post, as an example, sure DA get better shotguns, but at least its listed as a reason why: manstopper rounds.
main point here: i'm not really complaining, but i just want an explanation (from GW, not from fluff, arguments, or any of that stuff) saying why a UM stormshield is better than say a BA storm shield, at least make a separate entry (ei, tower storm shields, gives +3 invul save due to its great height vs storm shield, +4 invul save in CC) as to avoid confusion, and as seen on this board, lots of angry customers.
finishing comments are to all players using independent codexes for SM, just chill and wait until the new C:SM coded comes out. maybe they'll tell us something from now till then, maybe GW has heard the angry masses and do release a faq. for now, it'll suck in the short run, but in the long run, have a lil bit of patience.
also, i heard that other races are getting new codexes first, ei IG, Necrons, DE. SW codex is slated last (at least thats what the GW people told me when i asked them about it)
that's one of the main reasons for the inter-chapter flame war going on in this thread.
What I would like to see happening is the BoLS admins stepping in and making a stand here.... too many ppl are bitchin and complaining and too many ppl are being alright insulting here...
if you (not you signo) cannot act maturely on the internet then just get out of here... most of the people here are mature (i would at least hope so) and as such none of us need to get into a shouting match here. that's the biggest problem on the internet... that whole anonymity thing.... /sigh
GW best move so far is the assault on black reach box otherwise that they still do same mistakes over and over, forcing the player to change instead of adding is bad business and removing or squat treatment is as bad too.
i got my lesson with GW, collect as basic as possible, and play generic stuff otherwise that you will get ripped off, exemple 1996 chaos dex ( the way i collected ) after that the 3.1 came out most chaos players changed and got specialized and now 5th ed codex that is mostly a roll back to the 1996 codex. same goes with the marines.
captain and chappy is always a good choice, librarians since they never sold that much receive a boost get nerf after, and here we go again. the new razorback options will be popular and are also very sensible to change so keeping the old setups are a safe bet but the new weapons options hmmm i would not trust that.
special chars, those are still worthless super rules to sell, nothing more
all the vets varients are a no good too as it is clear the prupose of those is to sell metal minis, expensive and big bucks for GW
new scouts, those are a joke and a bad one, minis are great but are subject to change again.
this dex is all new and shiny but not really new so guys be careful don't go haywire on it, keep those precious buck in your pockets
but whilst some units have had a dramatic pric cut others are more expensive :(
i expect to see lost of landraider redeemers forging ahead at cruising speed with machine spirit assault cannons blazing