But we'll have more choice in tanks...I talked to Robin Cruddace (the author of the new dex) at Games Day UK this year and he said right now he has 21 different tank profiles in the book :D
I was trying to explain a lot of the advantages here to a Guard player who was pretty disillusioned by 5th Edition not too long ago...maybe I'll have to point him in this direction.
Rook
· 1 year ago
Huzzah for the Imperial Guard! Now we just need that new codex, and we'll be ready to rock!
david
· 1 year ago
with the new codex coming out most of this will change. Doctrines are going away
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Doctrines probably will go away, as that has been the trend. That does not mean we will necessarily lose all the advantages given by doctrines; these may be available in other ways.
Lord
· 1 year ago
Jwolf, what do you think of the rumours of the new codex? do you think it will hurt your army? or will it make it unbeatable?
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
I'm taking a wait and see position regarding the new Codex. I expect it will take a few months to retune an IG army to it, and then we'll see.
Lord
· 1 year ago
what is your Tallarn IG list look like? I remember a great quote from the final Age of Heresy battle, where you destroy an opponent's entire army on turn three. How has that list changed?
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
I’ve been playing pure Tallarn all of 5e in preparation for the Macharian Crusade. My list changed from the Damned of Damascus, which was heavily into powerfist Commissars, to the latest version which is:
Colonel Raz Aziz Medic Standard Mortar
Mortar x3 Autocannon x3 Heavy Bolter x3 Missile Launcher x3
Platoon A JO, Flamer x4 Chimera Multilaser, Hull Heavy Flamer A1 Lascannon, Plasmagun A2 Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Platoon B JO, Meltagun x2 B1 Meltagun, Vet Sarge w/ Stormbolter B2 Meltagun, Vet Sarge w/ Stormbolter
Hellhound x3
Leman Russ Battle Tank Heavy Bolter x3 Leman Russ Demolisher Plasma Cannon x2, Lascannon Basilisk, Indirect fire
All the unmounted infantry except the mortars are Light Infantry, all the vehicles except the Basilisk have smoke and extra armor.
Lord
· 1 year ago
So how do you deploy? With the tanks and hellhounds as a spearhead, and all the infantry stationary? Then you use Aziz as a counter attack?
Anonymous
· 1 year ago
What does MEQ stand for?
Karl
· 1 year ago
MEQ = Marine EQuivalent
evernevermore
· 1 year ago
This is a great article for me as I recently picked up a Pig Iron Kolony head pack and have slowly started doing some minor conversions to some IG I have had lying around
boreas
· 1 year ago
Wow. I've been defending IGs since the first 5th ed. rumors came out... Lots of "OGMZ! IG are gonna be teh sucks!!!111one" out there. Actually, with WHs, it's one army that benefits most from all the 5th ed. rules.
Don't forget the "Get Down" rule. Losing one turn of shooting 10 lasguns to protect an objective is much less costly that doing the same with "elite" troops like marines.
And blasts are just murderous now. Grenade-laucher and mortar spam is easy and effective!
Phil
chris
· 1 year ago
I am surprised that more conversation has not taken place about defensive weapons being str 4 weapons. This converts the Leman Russ into a bunker or an oversized armored jeep. The best tactic I have found it to use the battle cannon until the enemy closes then move around the field and fire off 3 hv bolters and pintle weapon. As melta weapons close, move away from them and and open up with all of the defensive weapons. The current rules only allow the pintle weapon and 1 hv bolter. That just cut away 6 str 5 ap4 shots. So my question now is were is the positive thought in this?
sonic monkey
· 1 year ago
I'm finding through playing the opposite - I'm moving my Russ more. First of all, in 4th ed shooting the battle cannon was only 1D6 scatter, whereas moving is 2D6 scatter. In 5th ed, it will always be 2D6 scatter for shooting the big gun regardless of if you have moved or not. So, why not move to gain a better position? Also, moving makes close-combat assaults on the Russ more difficult to score a hit. As a result, I've found less need to have the sponsons while benefiting from a more mobile force (sponsons in 5th make the Russ more of a bunker!).
boreas
· 1 year ago
The positive is that you save points on tank sponsons to get more heavy-bolters elsewhere (like command squad)!!! Ok, it's not that positive, but the trade-off is not that bad...
Phil
slovak
· 1 year ago
Spend the couple points to put Sharpshooters doctrine over the heavy bolter team and the trade-off gets even better.
GeorgeLupus
· 1 year ago
So you are proposing that I tear the sponsons off of my tanks, trying to get all of the left behind glue off too, and then repaint them?
Uh, yeah thanks, great 'trade off'.
spudwack
· 1 year ago
Don't break it just yet. The standard set with the newer books is "models come first". So expect the new dex to include the russ's with hull lascannons and bolter sponsoons as the standard package upon which you can then upgrade weapon options. In the interim, just build your lists as best you can, and find friendly players who won't mind a little proxy russ.
boreas
· 1 year ago
Yep... Exactly. Look, what do you want. You can whine and stomp your feet. You can sell your tanks and leave the hobby. OR, you can get back in a good mood and see it as a project. The latest is my preferred option. I know remodeling an army because a rule change may suck, but it's life. I've got 3000+pts of Grey Knight collecting dust. Oh well. I've started SMs, I'll keep playing my WH and so be it until my DH can get a new codex.
Otherwise, pray that the next IG codex in a few month makes an exception to IG's defensive weapons. But don't bet any money...
This is all about attitude. When in doubt, remember that you have the luxury of playing an expensive hobby while others are starving or dying from malaria.
Phil
Tuna
· 1 year ago
I'm also pretty sure that I buy a Leman Russ for the Battle Cannon, which cannot fire in the same turn as the Heavy Bolters.
So I'm really not fussed about losing the ability to move and shoot heavy bolters. As said, it's all a matter of perspective; keep the glass half-full! :)
GeorgeLupus
· 1 year ago
So why is it assumed that every time someone has a complaint (even a justified one) that they're going to sell their minis & leave the hobby? Are you serious? I've got so much invested in this infernal hobby that a 12 step program probably wouldn't help me by now. A legitimate gripe (that I'll get over, just felt the need to voice it) is not an 'attitude'. You want to remodel your tanks, enjoy, I'm leaving mine as is. I just don't see the need to potentially ruin the prettiest models in my army to save 20 points total (between the 2 of them), when I've got another platoon to paint. As an aside: are you suggesting I tear the sponsons off of my old 1st. gen. Predators too?
TSINI
· 11 months ago
wooohooo, im so glad i chose to leave off the sponsons of my new guard army to slimline the tanks for urban combat, though i could be eating my words when the codex is unveiled and they become cheap as chips upgrades and can fire all the time (a preposterous rumour i might add)
i will be missing them when the hordes of xenos approach though :( and feeling the pinch on the the silly subject of tanks having "weapon wounds" (what was wrong with having weaponless immobile tanks and sentinals littering the field!!)
T.S.I.N.I
evernevermore
· 1 year ago
Well I think the melta weapon issue is an example of a change in tactics - time for your infantry to earn thier pay protecting the tanks, like real world armies. Admittedly the defensive weapon change affects me less then some as my primary Russ is a heavily converted tank with just the hull and battlecannon and my secondary is an exterminator that is intended as a pillbox/area denial weapon as much as a real tank.
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
The positive is that it is a lot easier to choose between weapons, as the battlecannon is now always better.
the mike
· 1 year ago
where does it say that. That thing that says the pintle weapon and hv bolter are allowed? First time i ever heard that. Show me where it says that and i'll believe you.
Creed
· 1 year ago
Although defensive weapons got worse dont' forget that the battle canon of a Leman Russ has the same scatter whilest moving as in a statinary position.
Anyhow, what I really like in the 5th is TLOS, better cover saves, outflanking sentinels and the blast rules. In fact I'm frequentliy thinking twice about taking frag or krak missiles against Marines.
Creed
· 1 year ago
Although defensive weapons got worse dont' forget that the battle canon of a Leman Russ has the same scatter whilest moving as in a statinary position.
Anyhow, what I really like in the 5th is TLOS, better cover saves, outflanking sentinels and the blast rules. In fact I'm frequentliy thinking twice about taking frag or krak missiles against Marines.
slovak
· 1 year ago
Advantage #9 Command squad with 4 grenade launchers is now a rolling wall of scattering templates, about equivalent in value of a mortar squad that's moving. Also small command squad size means easy to hide (see advantage #2).
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
I found that the lack of pinning and the -1 str made the grenade launchers relatively ineffective for my tastes.
Zack
· 1 year ago
@h: You've never seen Jwolf play. It's a rare thing for him to win and not kill every opponent model.
@jwolf: I cracked up about the benefit of defensive weapons... so much easier to pick what gun to shoot.
So, yeah... IG get a ton of benefits in 5th edition, sure. Giant loopholes in the GW ideology for 5th edition playstyles open up when you use the guard codex - we don't glorify melee, we have billions of templates, we've got multiple guns that deny cover saves, all our dudes give all their buddies cover saves, stupid shit like that. And we can have an ass-ton of guys that stay around forever if they can hug a tree. I'm not going to argue against the idea that guard have a lot of ADVANTAGES in 5th.
But I am going to argue that guard still suck in 5th. Jwolf, you and I (and mkerr for that matter) took IG to the 'Ard Boyz. We all got smashed. Out of 22 players that day, 5 of us were IG, and no IG players finished in the top 3. I bet if you looked across the nation, IG will represent 10% or less of the qualifiers for the Semi-finals in 'Ard Boyz. For all of our advantages, IG players are still sitting on an under-powered army.
I love my IG, and I'm going to keep them in good condition (especially with the Macharian Crusade starting Thursday), but I think until they get their new book I'm going to bring another army to play with. My Necrons came out last week and sucked ass, so I think bigbugs are going to make a return this weekend for he tournament.
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Well, I know that against the army that won our local 'Ard Boyz, I've tabled him twice, won strongly once, and narrowly lost once. He was fortunate not to draw me for the tournament, as my AC list was essentially immune to everything he could do about them.
I agree that the list has several issues, particularly in the cost of weapons and basic troopers, but IG is fundamentally sound and by virtue of simply having the most shots to fire, has the greatest potential to table an army of any in under 5e.
Herald of Nurgle
· 1 year ago
Advantage #10: Defensive Weapons? What Defensive Weapons? Hellhound - If your Big Flamer is in range, you'll be firing it at the far away squad anyway Leman Russ - Battle Cannon is Ordnance. Hilarity Ensues Basilisk - Its Ordnance. Its now technically a Move and Fire weapon. Hilarity is there when the wall broke down
TIP: When in doubt, shoot the buildings. That objective in the highest reaches of the building is now no longer there for the taking unless there is a figure that is big enough to have the head 3 inches away from it (and no, you can't say 'this is my Esteemed Wraithlord, who has the biggest head in histroy eventhough it isn't officially Games Workshop scale). This means that the forces over that area will either have no target (if this is in the deployment zone I wuv it) or get crushed by the terrain =P
NeilBrimelow
· 1 year ago
Hellhounds are the the IG's best asset IMHO. Since they are S6, this means that they wound mostly everything normal in the game on a 2+, so even against terminators and MEq's, it's a great weapon.
Against non-MEq troops, the Hellhound is positively devastating, since in ignores cover saves as well.
Personally, I like to run at least two in my IG army, and usually run three. It's funny, I have found myself guarding my Hellhounds more than the rest of the army.
Matthew_Rider
· 1 year ago
I thought alot of this when I first got 5th edition- my guard army has been kicking arse recently lol
Anonymous 2
· 1 year ago
Just a question about 5th edition, It says only troops choices can capture objectives so if i take an ork nobz squad as a troops choice,( where its normaly elites) can it capture objectives?
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Yes it can.
Joshua
· 1 year ago
Hello, I know for a start that these comments are for the Advantages for the Guard. But going towards starting a Guard Army. Prefering the Death Korps Of Krieg, Would I need any FW books and the IG Codex or can I just play with them with the standard codex?
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
There are excellent rules for DKoK in the IA books, but you can play them just fine from the Codex.
GeorgeLupus
· 1 year ago
Advantage # 4: Hellhounds.
LOL! You know my hellhound is invariably the FIRST thing targeted any time it hits the table. Question on the inferno cannon though, we've been using it as is from 4th ed., as the flame template scattering in a random direction seems a bit odd, not to mention that there's no center hole to potentially go beyond the max range and thus auto miss.
Is this what everyone else is doing?
boreas
· 1 year ago
Since it's template, and not a blast, why would it scatter? AFAIK, you just place the whole template where you want it and in the orientation you want, just as long as you keep it whole within LOS and range...
And yeah, I DO target my buddy's hellhounds, you're right :-) they're just murder!
Phil
StaysCrunchyInMilk
· 1 year ago
Agreed - It doesn't scatter. The hellhound entry has a special rule for placing the template, written in the codex. It doesn't say scatter anywhere. (In fact it says (shortened version): place the template and hit everything underneath)
Tony
· 1 year ago
I actually had a question about guard that my roommate and I were discussing for annihilation:
Do the 4 guardsmen with the commander count as a seperate kill point. We can see both sides, because he is the commander, however they aren't optional. I'm of the mindset, if they are optional, such as a SM Command Squad, or the Hive Tyrant Guard, they count as a seperate kill point. I think that squads like the guardsmen command squad and the Broodlord's squad are not seperate kill points, because they are a mandatory purchase with the HQ itself.
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Reread the Annihilation Mission on p.91. Retinues and ICs are 1 KP for each, not combined. The officer is 1 KP, the 4 amigos another KP.
FabricatorGeneral
· 1 year ago
Correct. Command Squads are the same squad if they are bought together or bound until the rest of the squad is dead.
tuffdart
· 1 year ago
I have been very successful with my Guard in fifth ed. I agree with most of the advantages. I really like the mix of SOBs with inducted guard = powerhouse. The critical one that hasn't been mentioned: (this is probably going away) Advantage #PRIME Camolene (sp?). With a remnant squad of 8 guys and a flamer spread out as a meat shield over ~18" (X2 with 2 squads!!!) All my squads behind this line get a marine save! If I'm pushed into going second this is a huge advantage. I set up differently if going first but I make sure I can take advantage of the +1 to cover saves from things that matter (high volume). As an aside: I was all set to play an Armored company for the fun of it in the 'ard Boyz Local but when the rules came down and suddenly scoring units were full Force Org slots I opted for a pure guard infantry force that only had only 3 units. I came in third behind a 160+ Ork hoard and a SOB list. But I qualified for regionals with guard! (?) I half hope this type of kill point modification will be in the new codex but only half. I think it may lend to spoiler lists being taken. It turns out mine list was also luckily effective at killing that day (couldn't deviate on risky deep strikes no matter how hard I tried!). But the key was marine saves. In each of the three games I lost 5-7 squads.
faultie
· 1 year ago
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Yes, Cameleoline cloaks (however spelled) are a relatively inexpensive way to make Guard units incredibly survivable. Having a 3+ save in cover (or higher in a bunker or similar) is incredibly effective against ranged weapons, blast that doesn't ignore, etc., making the lowly T3 5+ guardsmen a MEQ at range. Since that's where they should be staying (at range), it's a great thing to have! In pure shooting, 10 Marines vs. 25 Guardsmen (~160 pts), but both with 3+ saves, the Guardsmen stand a good chance to stomping the Marines.
Viktor Morte
· 1 year ago
Honestly, I think that my guard have had a big boost with 5th edition. Granted, I played Death Korps of Krieg, and I try to play a little on teh fluff-side, so I end up trying to have all of my infantry just charge. Doesn't always work so well.
Here's what I will say works great. Vehicles. They are now nigh-indestructable, and if in the new codex they get a Demonic Possesion equivillant, they'll be that much more effective. Secondly, blasts. I field three Heavy Mortars, and the amount of pure destruction they can reign down is beautiful. Combined with my two Earthshakers and a Vanquisher, I can potentially put down six large blast templates a turn.
As per defensive weapons, I've found that it's not that big of a disadvantage. It prevents you from moving and firing, but if placed initially well, a good Exterminator will be able to dish out some heavy firepower. Another thing (slightly off topic) that I found to work very well was the Valkryie. The amount of firepower it can lay out, especially with the Multi-rocket pods, is definitely worth the points.
Oh, and the last thing I wanted to touch on was the Cameleoline Guardsmen that Outflank. Lethal combination. What's also good is an flanking Veterans squad with a Heavy Bolter, three grenade launchers, and a Sergeant with a Storm Bolter.
Fifth edition has brought a lot of new and interesting options to the Guard players plate, and has made them that much better. However, they still have the same disadvantage against MEQ armies that they've always had. You have to be able to think more and make good use of tactics, and a fair bit of luck, if you wish to hold your own.
RichBlake
· 1 year ago
Some of these advantages are OK but Guard still have a bit of a sour deal in 5th ed.
As a Guard player I feel that for a while now Guard units usually do something different on paper then they do in practice. For example Armoured Fist Squads should be about going forward and capturing objectives left unguarded or that have been cleared by infiltrating or fast attacking units. In practice they make a much, much more effective stationary bunker then they do a forward attacking squad.
Guard haven't come out that badly from 5th ed apart from in one respect: Kill points. Guard armies are the easiest to beat in annihilation by miles. The only time I've ever found this to be an exception is in large team games over 4000 points and thats simply because Guard have always been more effective in large games.
Overall I have to say this article is a bit too rosy for my liking. There are flaws in the Guard codex and how Guard play in 5th ed, not terrible but there are some serious flaws which need addressing. This article seems to be talking up Guard wayyyy to much, and thats me saying that as an ardent Guard player :P
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
The article is focused on the advantages the Guard have in 5e, as the title explains. If you want to talk about how 5e gave the Guard a sour deal, write your own damned article. I have no use for complaints, as they provide no assistance in playing strongly. Yes, the basic Guardsman is overpriced and the weapon options for all infantry are too expensive - so what? We have what we have, and my goal is to make the best force possible from what we have, not whine about what we don't.
My record in Annihilation games, with a 2k force having 19-22 KP (various builds) is my weakest in 5e, but still more than 60% wins. Granted, most of those wins are via the Wipeout! rule (as are most of my wins overall), but I have not found that my huge amounts of available KP have cost me in close games against average KP forces.
SSG_Snuffy
· 1 year ago
A long while ago, in a White Dwarf, I saw a battle report that provided advice for IG armies: pick one target and shoot it until it's dead. Repeat as necessary.
Is this more or less what you do to wipe out so many opponents? Do you concentrate your firepower or whittle away a little at a time?
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
I'll do a tactics article later this week, but concentration of firepower is certainly a key against assault armies. The trick is knowing what to shoot when, and that's what I'll talk about.
StaysCrunchyInMilk
· 1 year ago
My opinion of our KP disadvantage is offset by two things: 1) Anhiallation is 1/3 of games played. We have a advantage in the other 2. 2) If only we had some well armoured / able to hide tanks. With the new vehicle damage chart making them more survivable, some AV14 tanks, maybe with rear armour of 11, or the ability to hide whilst hidden would be really juicy. What's that tread head? you have 14 tanks filling a shelf so you can fit each HS slot three times with whatever takes your fancy, and hellhounds to boot? Well, don those commanders goggles, a T-shirt that reads "Shut up hippy, tanks are cool" and roll out! P.S. It is still a disadvantage to have low LD, low AV troops for kill points, but it's not like we can stop that last man fleeing off the table. It's like the officers need to stop them with some sort of Iron discipline. "Sighs and flicks through the doctrines section longingly."
StaysCrunchyInMilk
· 1 year ago
That'd be fire whilst hidden in 2), not hide whilst hidden.
RichBlake
· 1 year ago
Hey no need to get offended. I thought the article was good, just a little bit more optimistic really. Quite frankly you may be annoyed by people disillusioned by Guard at the moment but theres no need to be as agressive as you are being.
If you think by ignoring the bad you can make an army that works well you're gravley mistaken, I wasn't "whining" in the slightest, I stil lthink that the Guard is possibly the best army going, however bias that is, thanks to many of the things you mentioned. Also if you notice I said that the problem with Guard isn't that "they suck" its that nothing really does what it's supposed to do, almost as if the idea in theory gets changed when put into practice. Thats not a bad thing, it just means that you need to be a veteran Guard player before you can even know what to use, neverlone how to use it.
Also weapons options are overpriced? Power swords for 5 points, heavy bolters for 10 points (OK lascannons for 25 is Over prived) is NOT over priced. Plasma Guns and Meltguns for 10 points each are a bargin also.
Quite frankly if you are playing 2K games with 19-22 kill points available you're either the best Guard player I have ever even had the honour to talk to or you're playing against people who are either rubbish or don't know how to fight Guardsmen. (If you can prove the former then I take my hat off to you).
Overall I just said your article was too one sided, you showed all of the good points with none of the bad. While I can appriciate you're trying to "buck up" spirits amonug Guard players by reminding them our strong points you'd be much better by also pointing out how to get around the bad points too.
I do however look forward to your article on IG tactics, I'm always open minded and eagar when it comes to discussing various strategies.
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Rich, I'm only offended that you can't seem to read the title of the article. I had no intention of presenting a balanced article discussing the pros and cons of the Imperial Guard, only advantages. I would hope that the advantages look optimistic.
Power weapons for 5pts are not over priced. Pretty much every other weapon is over priced, as SM get them for the same or cheaper prices on a substantially better trooper.
I don't give a crap about the spirits of other Guard players. After all, "blessed is the mind too small for doubt."
SSG_Snuffy
· 1 year ago
As suggested, I went back and read the Annihilation mission... Personally, I'd be tempted to rule that a SM comand squad is a separate KP as they're purchased separately, whereas the IG's command squad is a mandatory purchase, and shouldn't count as a separate KP. But... Until that's clarified by the Roolz Boyz/FAQ, the RAW are the final arbiter.
xbruthamanx
· 1 year ago
I don't know if it has been stated yet or not, i have only had time to read through some of the posts, but...
Anyone who has faced a space marine army fielding a whirlwind knows how much fun it is to lose at least one squad a turn (from something you cant even shoot at, and most of the time cant claim a cover save from).
Tanks fall quickly to the faster pace of HTH based troops since 5th made them all effective 10/11 AV. You need to target squads not in cover, hit, then hope you don't leave any left standing.
The 4+cover save using your own... that's helpful if your opponent doesn't shoot the front line, or charge you. The main drawback most of my marine opponents enjoy pointing out to me is the TLOS issues that you face while trying to draw a line through your "covering"squad. You can ignore units in your own squad, but not in the ones in front of you. I tend to field at least 10 infantry squads each game, hiding my heavy weapons behind several infantry squads means I can't draw clear line of sight without giving them the same cover save. 3+ save generally beats the 4+ cover, but superkrak missles and lascannons bouncing off my own guys and not killing marines on the off chance i get lucky enough to hit, doesn't seem to be as useful as it could be.
I know there are times where I have played marine forces so geared up, they only had three or four squads on the table. I win the game to the man, on the third turn. Most players know to put in a bunch of basic marines, with few if any weapon upgrades and wade through my troops until i have no scoring units left, then hold on to the objective to win the game.
All in all, Imperial guard has a lot of advantages over many of the other races in the 40K universe... Too bad everyone plays Space Marines :(
boreas
· 1 year ago
The difference between a gripe and "attitude" is the tone. The "Uh, yeah thanks, great 'trade off'" attitude. The thing is I try to bring something positive, you just moan. Man, WH40k players are such whiners... The rules are the rules. Yeah, some suck, get over it...
KINGS
· 1 year ago
My favorite unit in 5th for Guard are Sentinels and I am very surprised they have not been mentioned.
Jwolf and I argue about IG all the time but I think we can both agree that they are a solid army. Certainly not the best built for 5th... seeing as how they date back to 3rd!!! But still a solid army none the less.
I only take one Hellhound (dont want to buy any new models until the codex comes out) :P ) and two outflanking Sentinel squadrons each with a las cannon and autocannon. This minimizes the KP and makes the units more survivable. A single Sentinel gets poped against bolter gund lines... or even rhinos for that matter. I either outflank and shoot side armor of vehicals or tie up enemy units on objectives. I love it when in Capture and Control the enemy places their objective within 12" of the table edge.
I still roll Chem-Inhailers in 5th for two main reasons. "Go to Ground" and "Tar Pitz".
1) Go to Ground. Even if you do this you have to take a Ld and can fall back from shooting. With Chem-Inhailers if you fail your test from shooting you get pinned. Same difference.
2) Tar Pitz. My infantry squads specialize in anti hord shooting with lots of HB and Grenade Launchers. That means that if I am so unlucky to let a sizable close combat MEQ unit hit my lines I am not going to kill it in one round. Therefore Chem-Inhailers force the enmey to kill every model, if it looks like that will happen in my turn then I'll throw another unit in there, otherwise the tar pit works. Seconly the tar pit is sticking around on an objective so if this is late in the game I certainly dont want my scoring units folding.
~kings
p.s. looking forward to the Tactics article so I can describe how I won a KP mission in a tourni 10-2 with over 20 KPs in my army.
jwolf_bols
· 1 year ago
Sentinels are good, and until recently I was running with 3 single AC Sentinels, to flank and either flank/rear shoot vehicles or charge big enemy swarms (especially Orks) and pull them away from my front lines. That is especially effective against those blocks of 30 with the Klaw in the front lines; the Orks can't hurt the Sentinel until the Klaw gets to it, and that is almost always in their assault phase.
I left them out because Hellhounds are better for the FA slot, and I think Sentinels are only an advantage if used well tactically, not in and of themselves.
KINGS
· 1 year ago
Agreed. If I had three Hellhounds I would roll three Hellhounds. But instead I have 6 Sentinels, 4 of which see action in my standard army list.
I used to use two single las cannon sentinels in 4th that were deployed on my extreem flanks but now those are just too easy of KPs.
~kings
Savark
· 1 year ago
Guard should stop whinnin, they only have a 1/3 for ahnilation and the other to missions they excel at!
random guy
· 1 year ago
What about the ratlings(snipers) with the new sniper rule they can pop a few meqs off and cause a pinning test as well.
banjo
· 1 year ago
Some very good points, but I think you play against MEQs too often. Against Orks or even nids, the Guard can struggle. Their troopers get all the same benefits with regard to cover that ours do. Sure, we get hellhounds (which are the Bomb, btw) but other than that we don't have any long-ranged, cover-ignoring firepower. If you can call 24" long-ranged.
Against MEQs, the guard is horribly deadly but I'm finding that I simply can't kill enough boys or nids before the hacking begins.
SteelLegionCommisar
· 1 year ago
well, the best thing for IG with regards to horde armies is that they can't consolidate their way down our gun line anymore... My counter to this is sit Storm Troopers behind my infantry platoons, and once the inital scrap is over, the enemy units suddenly have between 20-60 shots into thier face at point blank range. Is not a pretty sight afterwords
Cuthbo
· 7 months ago
First up, thanks for all the info Jwolf, any bit of advice from a vet is great.
Second, concerning the sponson debate i have found that the lowering of the defensive weapon strength only opened up more modelling opportunities. If you work slowly and carefully you can remove the sponsons without to much hassle or damage to the model, now the answer to the now scared and quite bare hull is simple (well for me) armour skirts. A piece of 1mm plasticard shaped the same as the side hull and decorated with hatches and more armour plates works great. Perfect for representing “extra armour” now if you’re up for it you can still use your sponsons when you want to. Using pieces of sprue for supports inside the sponsons drill a small hole and glue in a small magnet, repeat the process for the armour skirts and place corresponding magnets in the hull. You now have the option to swap and without needing multiple models or trying to repair the damaged hull section because the sponson just fits back in place.
This also works for all turret options. Cut the standard barrel off at the mantlet, place in a disc of plasticard to fill the hole in both the barrel and mantlet. Add magnets and you have a removable barrel, now using plastic tubing you can create demolisher, conqueror and vanquisher barrels and swap out the fit as desired. If you use two magnets in the mantlet you can grab some spare weapons off the heavy weapon sprues (lascannon and autocannon) cut them down add magnets and ‘hey presto’ you have an annialator or exterminator. Also works for sponson and hull weapons, facing orks in a city? time for heavy flamers and heavy bolters, need some punch? Throw on a lascannon. Hope this helps some of you.
Thirdly and lastly, Imperial Guard are the lords of the massive battlefield, small scale battles don’t work so well for us but hey who cares, I don’t see any MEQ’s with the option of deploying a scud launcher or having the ability of deploying 50 guys via deepstrike with a single reserve roll.
All Comments
That easy huh? :P
I was trying to explain a lot of the advantages here to a Guard player who was pretty disillusioned by 5th Edition not too long ago...maybe I'll have to point him in this direction.
Now we just need that new codex, and we'll be ready to rock!
Doctrines are going away
Colonel Raz Aziz
Medic
Standard
Mortar
Mortar x3
Autocannon x3
Heavy Bolter x3
Missile Launcher x3
Platoon A
JO, Flamer x4
Chimera Multilaser, Hull Heavy Flamer
A1 Lascannon, Plasmagun
A2 Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Platoon B
JO, Meltagun x2
B1 Meltagun, Vet Sarge w/ Stormbolter
B2 Meltagun, Vet Sarge w/ Stormbolter
Hellhound x3
Leman Russ Battle Tank Heavy Bolter x3
Leman Russ Demolisher Plasma Cannon x2, Lascannon
Basilisk, Indirect fire
All the unmounted infantry except the mortars are Light Infantry, all the vehicles except the Basilisk have smoke and extra armor.
Don't forget the "Get Down" rule. Losing one turn of shooting 10 lasguns to protect an objective is much less costly that doing the same with "elite" troops like marines.
And blasts are just murderous now. Grenade-laucher and mortar spam is easy and effective!
Phil
Phil
Uh, yeah thanks, great 'trade off'.
Otherwise, pray that the next IG codex in a few month makes an exception to IG's defensive weapons. But don't bet any money...
This is all about attitude. When in doubt, remember that you have the luxury of playing an expensive hobby while others are starving or dying from malaria.
Phil
So I'm really not fussed about losing the ability to move and shoot heavy bolters. As said, it's all a matter of perspective; keep the glass half-full! :)
i will be missing them when the hordes of xenos approach though :(
and feeling the pinch on the the silly subject of tanks having "weapon wounds" (what was wrong with having weaponless immobile tanks and sentinals littering the field!!)
T.S.I.N.I
Anyhow, what I really like in the 5th is TLOS, better cover saves, outflanking sentinels and the blast rules. In fact I'm frequentliy thinking twice about taking frag or krak missiles against Marines.
Anyhow, what I really like in the 5th is TLOS, better cover saves, outflanking sentinels and the blast rules. In fact I'm frequentliy thinking twice about taking frag or krak missiles against Marines.
Command squad with 4 grenade launchers is now a rolling wall of scattering templates, about equivalent in value of a mortar squad that's moving. Also small command squad size means easy to hide (see advantage #2).
@jwolf: I cracked up about the benefit of defensive weapons... so much easier to pick what gun to shoot.
So, yeah... IG get a ton of benefits in 5th edition, sure. Giant loopholes in the GW ideology for 5th edition playstyles open up when you use the guard codex - we don't glorify melee, we have billions of templates, we've got multiple guns that deny cover saves, all our dudes give all their buddies cover saves, stupid shit like that. And we can have an ass-ton of guys that stay around forever if they can hug a tree. I'm not going to argue against the idea that guard have a lot of ADVANTAGES in 5th.
But I am going to argue that guard still suck in 5th. Jwolf, you and I (and mkerr for that matter) took IG to the 'Ard Boyz. We all got smashed. Out of 22 players that day, 5 of us were IG, and no IG players finished in the top 3. I bet if you looked across the nation, IG will represent 10% or less of the qualifiers for the Semi-finals in 'Ard Boyz.
For all of our advantages, IG players are still sitting on an under-powered army.
I love my IG, and I'm going to keep them in good condition (especially with the Macharian Crusade starting Thursday), but I think until they get their new book I'm going to bring another army to play with. My Necrons came out last week and sucked ass, so I think bigbugs are going to make a return this weekend for he tournament.
I agree that the list has several issues, particularly in the cost of weapons and basic troopers, but IG is fundamentally sound and by virtue of simply having the most shots to fire, has the greatest potential to table an army of any in under 5e.
Defensive Weapons? What Defensive Weapons?
Hellhound - If your Big Flamer is in range, you'll be firing it at the far away squad anyway
Leman Russ - Battle Cannon is Ordnance. Hilarity Ensues
Basilisk - Its Ordnance. Its now technically a Move and Fire weapon. Hilarity is there when the wall broke down
TIP:
When in doubt, shoot the buildings. That objective in the highest reaches of the building is now no longer there for the taking unless there is a figure that is big enough to have the head 3 inches away from it (and no, you can't say 'this is my Esteemed Wraithlord, who has the biggest head in histroy eventhough it isn't officially Games Workshop scale). This means that the forces over that area will either have no target (if this is in the deployment zone I wuv it) or get crushed by the terrain =P
Against non-MEq troops, the Hellhound is positively devastating, since in ignores cover saves as well.
Personally, I like to run at least two in my IG army, and usually run three. It's funny, I have found myself guarding my Hellhounds more than the rest of the army.
It says only troops choices can capture objectives so if i take an ork nobz squad as a troops choice,( where its normaly elites) can it capture objectives?
LOL! You know my hellhound is invariably the FIRST thing targeted any time it hits the table. Question on the inferno cannon though, we've been using it as is from 4th ed., as the flame template scattering in a random direction seems a bit odd, not to mention that there's no center hole to potentially go beyond the max range and thus auto miss.
Is this what everyone else is doing?
And yeah, I DO target my buddy's hellhounds, you're right :-) they're just murder!
Phil
Do the 4 guardsmen with the commander count as a seperate kill point. We can see both sides, because he is the commander, however they aren't optional. I'm of the mindset, if they are optional, such as a SM Command Squad, or the Hive Tyrant Guard, they count as a seperate kill point. I think that squads like the guardsmen command squad and the Broodlord's squad are not seperate kill points, because they are a mandatory purchase with the HQ itself.
The critical one that hasn't been mentioned: (this is probably going away)
Advantage #PRIME
Camolene (sp?). With a remnant squad of 8 guys and a flamer spread out as a meat shield over ~18" (X2 with 2 squads!!!) All my squads behind this line get a marine save!
If I'm pushed into going second this is a huge advantage.
I set up differently if going first but I make sure I can take advantage of the +1 to cover saves from things that matter (high volume).
As an aside:
I was all set to play an Armored company for the fun of it in the 'ard Boyz Local but when the rules came down and suddenly scoring units were full Force Org slots I opted for a pure guard infantry force that only had only 3 units.
I came in third behind a 160+ Ork hoard and a SOB list. But I qualified for regionals with guard! (?)
I half hope this type of kill point modification will be in the new codex but only half.
I think it may lend to spoiler lists being taken.
It turns out mine list was also luckily effective at killing that day (couldn't deviate on risky deep strikes no matter how hard I tried!).
But the key was marine saves. In each of the three games I lost 5-7 squads.
Yes, Cameleoline cloaks (however spelled) are a relatively inexpensive way to make Guard units incredibly survivable. Having a 3+ save in cover (or higher in a bunker or similar) is incredibly effective against ranged weapons, blast that doesn't ignore, etc., making the lowly T3 5+ guardsmen a MEQ at range. Since that's where they should be staying (at range), it's a great thing to have! In pure shooting, 10 Marines vs. 25 Guardsmen (~160 pts), but both with 3+ saves, the Guardsmen stand a good chance to stomping the Marines.
Here's what I will say works great. Vehicles. They are now nigh-indestructable, and if in the new codex they get a Demonic Possesion equivillant, they'll be that much more effective. Secondly, blasts. I field three Heavy Mortars, and the amount of pure destruction they can reign down is beautiful. Combined with my two Earthshakers and a Vanquisher, I can potentially put down six large blast templates a turn.
As per defensive weapons, I've found that it's not that big of a disadvantage. It prevents you from moving and firing, but if placed initially well, a good Exterminator will be able to dish out some heavy firepower. Another thing (slightly off topic) that I found to work very well was the Valkryie. The amount of firepower it can lay out, especially with the Multi-rocket pods, is definitely worth the points.
Oh, and the last thing I wanted to touch on was the Cameleoline Guardsmen that Outflank. Lethal combination. What's also good is an flanking Veterans squad with a Heavy Bolter, three grenade launchers, and a Sergeant with a Storm Bolter.
Fifth edition has brought a lot of new and interesting options to the Guard players plate, and has made them that much better. However, they still have the same disadvantage against MEQ armies that they've always had. You have to be able to think more and make good use of tactics, and a fair bit of luck, if you wish to hold your own.
As a Guard player I feel that for a while now Guard units usually do something different on paper then they do in practice. For example Armoured Fist Squads should be about going forward and capturing objectives left unguarded or that have been cleared by infiltrating or fast attacking units. In practice they make a much, much more effective stationary bunker then they do a forward attacking squad.
Guard haven't come out that badly from 5th ed apart from in one respect: Kill points. Guard armies are the easiest to beat in annihilation by miles. The only time I've ever found this to be an exception is in large team games over 4000 points and thats simply because Guard have always been more effective in large games.
Overall I have to say this article is a bit too rosy for my liking. There are flaws in the Guard codex and how Guard play in 5th ed, not terrible but there are some serious flaws which need addressing. This article seems to be talking up Guard wayyyy to much, and thats me saying that as an ardent Guard player :P
My record in Annihilation games, with a 2k force having 19-22 KP (various builds) is my weakest in 5e, but still more than 60% wins. Granted, most of those wins are via the Wipeout! rule (as are most of my wins overall), but I have not found that my huge amounts of available KP have cost me in close games against average KP forces.
Is this more or less what you do to wipe out so many opponents? Do you concentrate your firepower or whittle away a little at a time?
1) Anhiallation is 1/3 of games played. We have a advantage in the other 2.
2) If only we had some well armoured / able to hide tanks. With the new vehicle damage chart making them more survivable, some AV14 tanks, maybe with rear armour of 11, or the ability to hide whilst hidden would be really juicy. What's that tread head? you have 14 tanks filling a shelf so you can fit each HS slot three times with whatever takes your fancy, and hellhounds to boot? Well, don those commanders goggles, a T-shirt that reads "Shut up hippy, tanks are cool" and roll out!
P.S. It is still a disadvantage to have low LD, low AV troops for kill points, but it's not like we can stop that last man fleeing off the table. It's like the officers need to stop them with some sort of Iron discipline. "Sighs and flicks through the doctrines section longingly."
If you think by ignoring the bad you can make an army that works well you're gravley mistaken, I wasn't "whining" in the slightest, I stil lthink that the Guard is possibly the best army going, however bias that is, thanks to many of the things you mentioned. Also if you notice I said that the problem with Guard isn't that "they suck" its that nothing really does what it's supposed to do, almost as if the idea in theory gets changed when put into practice. Thats not a bad thing, it just means that you need to be a veteran Guard player before you can even know what to use, neverlone how to use it.
Also weapons options are overpriced? Power swords for 5 points, heavy bolters for 10 points (OK lascannons for 25 is Over prived) is NOT over priced. Plasma Guns and Meltguns for 10 points each are a bargin also.
Quite frankly if you are playing 2K games with 19-22 kill points available you're either the best Guard player I have ever even had the honour to talk to or you're playing against people who are either rubbish or don't know how to fight Guardsmen. (If you can prove the former then I take my hat off to you).
Overall I just said your article was too one sided, you showed all of the good points with none of the bad. While I can appriciate you're trying to "buck up" spirits amonug Guard players by reminding them our strong points you'd be much better by also pointing out how to get around the bad points too.
I do however look forward to your article on IG tactics, I'm always open minded and eagar when it comes to discussing various strategies.
Power weapons for 5pts are not over priced. Pretty much every other weapon is over priced, as SM get them for the same or cheaper prices on a substantially better trooper.
I don't give a crap about the spirits of other Guard players. After all, "blessed is the mind too small for doubt."
Personally, I'd be tempted to rule that a SM comand squad is a separate KP as they're purchased separately, whereas the IG's command squad is a mandatory purchase, and shouldn't count as a separate KP.
But... Until that's clarified by the Roolz Boyz/FAQ, the RAW are the final arbiter.
Anyone who has faced a space marine army fielding a whirlwind knows how much fun it is to lose at least one squad a turn (from something you cant even shoot at, and most of the time cant claim a cover save from).
Tanks fall quickly to the faster pace of HTH based troops since 5th made them all effective 10/11 AV. You need to target squads not in cover, hit, then hope you don't leave any left standing.
The 4+cover save using your own... that's helpful if your opponent doesn't shoot the front line, or charge you. The main drawback most of my marine opponents enjoy pointing out to me is the TLOS issues that you face while trying to draw a line through your "covering"squad. You can ignore units in your own squad, but not in the ones in front of you. I tend to field at least 10 infantry squads each game, hiding my heavy weapons behind several infantry squads means I can't draw clear line of sight without giving them the same cover save. 3+ save generally beats the 4+ cover, but superkrak missles and lascannons bouncing off my own guys and not killing marines on the off chance i get lucky enough to hit, doesn't seem to be as useful as it could be.
I know there are times where I have played marine forces so geared up, they only had three or four squads on the table. I win the game to the man, on the third turn. Most players know to put in a bunch of basic marines, with few if any weapon upgrades and wade through my troops until i have no scoring units left, then hold on to the objective to win the game.
All in all, Imperial guard has a lot of advantages over many of the other races in the 40K universe... Too bad everyone plays Space Marines :(
Jwolf and I argue about IG all the time but I think we can both agree that they are a solid army. Certainly not the best built for 5th... seeing as how they date back to 3rd!!! But still a solid army none the less.
I only take one Hellhound (dont want to buy any new models until the codex comes out) :P ) and two outflanking Sentinel squadrons each with a las cannon and autocannon. This minimizes the KP and makes the units more survivable. A single Sentinel gets poped against bolter gund lines... or even rhinos for that matter. I either outflank and shoot side armor of vehicals or tie up enemy units on objectives. I love it when in Capture and Control the enemy places their objective within 12" of the table edge.
I still roll Chem-Inhailers in 5th for two main reasons. "Go to Ground" and "Tar Pitz".
1) Go to Ground. Even if you do this you have to take a Ld and can fall back from shooting. With Chem-Inhailers if you fail your test from shooting you get pinned. Same difference.
2) Tar Pitz. My infantry squads specialize in anti hord shooting with lots of HB and Grenade Launchers. That means that if I am so unlucky to let a sizable close combat MEQ unit hit my lines I am not going to kill it in one round. Therefore Chem-Inhailers force the enmey to kill every model, if it looks like that will happen in my turn then I'll throw another unit in there, otherwise the tar pit works. Seconly the tar pit is sticking around on an objective so if this is late in the game I certainly dont want my scoring units folding.
~kings
p.s. looking forward to the Tactics article so I can describe how I won a KP mission in a tourni 10-2 with over 20 KPs in my army.
I left them out because Hellhounds are better for the FA slot, and I think Sentinels are only an advantage if used well tactically, not in and of themselves.
I used to use two single las cannon sentinels in 4th that were deployed on my extreem flanks but now those are just too easy of KPs.
~kings
Against MEQs, the guard is horribly deadly but I'm finding that I simply can't kill enough boys or nids before the hacking begins.
Second, concerning the sponson debate i have found that the lowering of the defensive weapon strength only opened up more modelling opportunities. If you work slowly and carefully you can remove the sponsons without to much hassle or damage to the model, now the answer to the now scared and quite bare hull is simple (well for me) armour skirts. A piece of 1mm plasticard shaped the same as the side hull and decorated with hatches and more armour plates works great. Perfect for representing “extra armour” now if you’re up for it you can still use your sponsons when you want to. Using pieces of sprue for supports inside the sponsons drill a small hole and glue in a small magnet, repeat the process for the armour skirts and place corresponding magnets in the hull. You now have the option to swap and without needing multiple models or trying to repair the damaged hull section because the sponson just fits back in place.
This also works for all turret options. Cut the standard barrel off at the mantlet, place in a disc of plasticard to fill the hole in both the barrel and mantlet. Add magnets and you have a removable barrel, now using plastic tubing you can create demolisher, conqueror and vanquisher barrels and swap out the fit as desired. If you use two magnets in the mantlet you can grab some spare weapons off the heavy weapon sprues (lascannon and autocannon) cut them down add magnets and ‘hey presto’ you have an annialator or exterminator. Also works for sponson and hull weapons, facing orks in a city? time for heavy flamers and heavy bolters, need some punch? Throw on a lascannon. Hope this helps some of you.
Thirdly and lastly, Imperial Guard are the lords of the massive battlefield, small scale battles don’t work so well for us but hey who cares, I don’t see any MEQ’s with the option of deploying a scud launcher or having the ability of deploying 50 guys via deepstrike with a single reserve roll.
Long live the Guard, glory to the Emperor!!