Ah, so THAT'S why you love those Dark Elves so much, eh? :)
Templar
· 10 months ago
"Hag Tea Party: The Cauldron doesn’t have to be crewed to work. The rulebook says that a War Machine that is not crewed cannot shoot. Since the cauldron doesn’t shoot, and since it says you measure the effect from the cauldron, not the crew, the Death Hag and the two Hags attendants can go wander off"
i call bull. even if that is RAW, no way am i letting someone get away with that. no crew = nonfunctional war machine. that's some pretty serious twink there...
Commisar_Xi
· 10 months ago
Bullshit, its a fucking rule, not something someone is *getting away with* something. I think its awesome, and I don't even play Dark Elves.
Snyderson
· 10 months ago
From my point of view a war machine is definately not able to be used if not manned by a crew. In the case of the cauldron maybe you do not need to "shoot" but from an RPG-view the Hags have to cast spells or whatever to get the thing working. IMHO just because 99% of all war machines do shoot the rulebook quotes "shoot" but in the case of the cauldron it should be understood as "operated". And if your opponent keeps tapping on the page in the rulebook, just throw a dice, before you start reachin' for your opponents throats...
GarethUK
· 10 months ago
plus you have to remember, war machine crews CANNOT leave their war machines for any reason unless the machine is destroyed (or they choose to flee). They are counted as a single unit for terms of spell affects and all gaming terms.
RAW = "these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it" (WFB rules page 84)
its a good idea, just unfortunately completly illegal
beakie
· 10 months ago
I agree, the "Hag tea party" rule is not at all legitimate.
I'm always disappointed when I see BoLS encourage nonsporting ways to cheat and work against the spirit of the rules. Remember people this is a GAME between people, not a monument to your ability to find what you think are uber-tricky loopholes. In our game store you would simply not be permitted to do that, period.
bullymike
· 10 months ago
and yet you keep coming back! you remind me of one of those sleazy news anchors that acts disgusted with the sleazy story they're reporting. "remember, people..." don't think you can lecture us. what are you, the church lady? oh you're sooo scandalized by BOLS' cheesy tactics. gimme a break.
static grass
· 10 months ago
Absolutely correct. You can't have hags running around with the caldron set to automatic.
I am amazed that anyone thought that this was a tactic. This spoiled an otherwise good tactica and revealed a great deal about the nature of the writer.
bullymike
· 10 months ago
a great deal about the nature of the writer? he started BOLS for chrissakes. tell you what, i'd be "amazed" if you didn't have this site bookmarked in your browser.
bullymike
· 10 months ago
my mistake, minus67 wrote it. but my point stands. if you guys are going to critique a tactic don't act all superior and disgusted. its fucking obnoxious.
Bradley Wiggins
· 10 months ago
There's plenty of great stuff here besides tactica. It's completely legitimate to wish that part of the site was brought in line with the quality painting, modelling, and sneak peaks articles that bring some people here.
I don't have an opinion myself on this subject myself, but I think you are being too hard on people that have a legitimate complaint about a tactica article suggesting things that aren't legal.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
all the tactics presented in this article are legal
Bigred
· 10 months ago
Abandoned Machines: p.86
"The entire crew may deliberately abandon a war machine, perhaps in order to crew another"
Joe Kopena
· 10 months ago
The rule snippet quoted above also implies fairly heavily that they can leave.
"these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it" (WFB rules page 84)"
Doesn't say they have to stay, just says it's then not crewed...
static grass
· 10 months ago
That's fine but the models have to be within 1" for it to be crewed. If it says in the rules that the cauldron operates after crew have been slain or that they don't have to be within 1" for it to work or that the models don't have anything to do with running the cauldron - then yes you are right.
You can still charge abandoned warmachines and when they loose combat (and they will) then the enemy automatically destroys it.
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
Big Red is absolutely correct.
You can leave a warmachine whenever you want.
The problem with doing this, as should be amended in the article, is that an uncrewed warmachine can be automatically destroyed (called spiked as slang) in close combat.
So yes you can leave your Cauldron and still have it cast magic, which is awesome! But ANY enemy model can touch it in combat and auto destroy it.
So yes guys, calm down, there is a down side to this tactic.
Folkert
· 10 months ago
"War Machine: The Cauldron of Blood is a War Machine and must follow the rules of it. However the machine is indestructible and you still randomize hits. So 2/3 of the shots fired at your unit will be instantly discarded"
So if I'm reading this right.. it can't be spiked... so you can happily abbandon the cauldron, hide and let the cauldron rip :) so yes you can have a Hag Tea Party
Minus67
· 10 months ago
Correct there is a downside.
Its mostly to avoid MASS shooting, like from other dark elf armies.
valaki
· 10 months ago
except that the couldron cannot be damaged...
static grass
· 10 months ago
Reading what you wrote, it does not say it can not be spiked, that only describes what happens to shooting attacks. It is a warmachine, if it is beaten in combat it can be spiked - it it quite simple.
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
Yup. Spiking is always a possibility. Being indestructible doesn't cover it's ass when it is simply removed from the table. Which is what Spiking does.
JC
· 10 months ago
The only problem with leaving the warmachine, however, is it specifically says in the Warhammer Rulebook, and the same page as that quote, that the warmachine ceases to 'work'. Not "cannot fire", but "does not work". Thus, any uncrewed War Machine can do nothing unless otherwise noted (ie the Hellcannon of Chaos). Since there is no note of this in the entry for Cauldron of Blood, this is not legal.
Regardless of personal opinion, I'd 1) call your local GW to get an official ruling on this during any competitive play, and 2) think about your opponent. Last time I checked, the number one rule of fantasy was to have fun. Someone pulls this move on you, reach across the table and say good game. They obviously aren't out to have fun.
minus67
· 10 months ago
Please read the 7 other times i debunked this idea,
Herald of Nurgle
· 10 months ago
It's a shame too. I was going to use it for my Crone army
solkan
· 10 months ago
Previously, I thought 40k was bad about needing FAQ's immediately after a new release.
duder
· 10 months ago
Well at least GW is consistent with they're ambiguous rules writing
Joyous_Oblivion
· 10 months ago
You are right, its in the dark elf army book. The hags CAN NOT leave the machine. That tactic seemed dumb in the article, and this proves it.
Shouldn't article writers on BOLS have to actually read the unit they are reviewing?
Minus67
· 10 months ago
Incorrect, pg. 93 of the Dark Elf Book. "If the death hag chooses a cauldron of Blood she becomes part of the unit and cannot leave it during the battle". She cannot leave the unit ( of hags). But as a happy little group they can leave the cauldron.
Joyous_Oblivion
· 10 months ago
Would the cauldron not be part of the unit though?
minus67
· 10 months ago
That unit is a warmachine crew and as such can leave the machine. If this is not true and it is a unit, than they would flee with the machine! which is crazy talk.
Dave
· 10 months ago
Great Advice there, especially for new players
My girlfriend is starting a DE army (she has a really cool theme, going to be an all female army, and uses a lot of old school models) and shes hyped to use the Cauldron. Ill be sure to send her this at work.
Thanks!
Snyderson
· 10 months ago
Great Article besides that "Tea Party Thingy"... ! ;) Would be nice to see more of those!
AdmiralHalsey
· 10 months ago
Yes, I'm not quite sure such a respectable site as bell of lost souls should be enouraging what is at very best, an incredibly cheesy way of bending the rules 180', and at worse, blatant cheating. Thats not so much a tactica as rules exploting. I thought the purpose of these articles was to help people play the game well, not to break the game?
Other than that, a good article, allthough I would be curious as to exactly what the points cost of this beast is.
And more general articles would be helpful. Unless you own A CoB, and play dark elves, there isn't much here that's useful, except to remind me 'Thats why Lizardmen have skinks'
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
It sin't cheating,s o sorry to burst your bubble. Big Red found a way to play Dark Elves actually in a good way, which hasn't been the case in how many years?
You an abandon your warmachine, which basically only disallows you from SHOOTING with it. The Cauldron's magic aspect is basically separate from warmachines, and it can cast magic whether the crew is there or not.
Don't get mad that the Dark Elves can actually do something nifty! Be glad they weren't given the all around over powered cheese the previous new books were given.
Flashman
· 10 months ago
I'm not sure where you or the writer is getting 'shooting' from but in the loss of crew section the BRB says, 'Obviously the machine requires at least one crewman to WORK...' not shoot but work so without crew the cauldron will just sit and sputter.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
incorrect. the couldron does nothing but look pretty. all effects stem from the crew
Flashman
· 10 months ago
Without the DE book in front of me I'll have to take your word for that. If then, the DE book, explicitly states that the the 'effects' stem from the Crew/Hag, then what is the purpose of the CoB or any of the Warmachine restrictions? Surely they don’t even need it on the table?
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
Flashman
"I'm not sure where you or the writer is getting 'shooting' from but in the loss of crew section the BRB says, 'Obviously the machine requires at least one crewman to WORK...' not shoot but work so without crew the cauldron will just sit and sputter."
As I said, it doesn't matter if the crew is with the Cauldron or not, the effect is not dependent on the Cauldron. SO sure, the Cauldron won't 'work', but the power still happens regardless.
Ant On An Inn
· 10 months ago
Ok... with "frenzy" i'm a little confused. i assume that rule is in the codex, but then the writer goes on to say that the rulebook contradicts what is a codex rule, ie having to charge. i'm sorry but coodex trumps rulebook at all times, it says so in the rule book doesn't it?
Tonio
· 10 months ago
Both the "Frenzy" and "War Machine" rules are in the main rulebook. And it's clearly written that even frenzied crew cannot leave their war machines.
The question arise from the fact that the CoB crew is one of the first (if not the first) with Frenzy, so players are not used to that combo.
Tonio
· 10 months ago
Oups, correction. They can leave it, but they cannot charge. Which is what Frenzy force them to.
Farsight
· 10 months ago
That brings up an interesting point. IF they leave the CoB, does frenzy then take over and force them to charge the nearest enemy unit?
Paul
· 10 months ago
I dont see what you are all moaning about.
The whole point of a tactica is to push the envelope and to think of things that nobody else has, if it just stated the patently bloody obvious you would all be up in arms that the article was of no use or insulted your inteligence.
Dont you think the hobby needs people to ask questions and prompt debate by drawing attention to loop holes in rules and codexes? Without it how would the hobby evolve or change?
Rather than screaming that its blatant cheating (AdmiralHalsey) why not put across a reasoned counter argument (see Syndersons post if you need tips on this) as this may make you sound less like a petulant child and more like a rational adult.
Highball
· 10 months ago
I came into the Comments section expecting a bunch of people complaining that tactics listed in a tactica worked too well and thus must be cheating.
Glad to see I wasn't disappointed. Stay classy, internet.
Jackwraith
· 10 months ago
The Hag Tea Party is not valid. War Machines don't operate when their crew "abandons" them, which means the Cauldron would do nothing. The reason it hands out abilities to various units is because it has a crew operating it. If it has no crew, it does nothing, just like an RBT that wouldn't shoot without a crew. Just because the Cauldron doesn't "shoot" doesn't mean that the rest of its powers will work without a crew.
It's the kind of hairsplitting and erroneous crap (just like the "opposing armies can use the SM Locator Beacon because it only says 'unit' and not 'friendly unit'") that bigred spews that drags this site down.
Toophat
· 10 months ago
I think a Tactica about a specific army should include all tactics whether they attempt to bend the rules or not just so people using said army are aware and people playing that army can also plan for them.
I think the real problem here is GW themselves. There are so many loop holes found in the rules but no ones really sure if they are legal or not. Every other company solves this by having an in-depth faq, GW's faqs never, ever answer even the most common questions people have. This whole debate would be solved if GW actually paid more attention to these grey issues and made a clear ruling.
Darxaan
· 10 months ago
"Hag tea party" aside, the only thing that bugs me here is that it says a unit of 6 executioners gets 13 attacks on the charge. One big difference between 40k and WFB is that in WFB you don't get +1 attack for charging, instead you get to make attacks first, so 6 executioners (assuming you have a champion) get 7 attacks, not 13. Other than that, this gives me serious reason to think about taking this for my dark elves. Hell, even throw a battle standard in there too to make it a real buff-o-matic. The only thing that gives me pause is the fact the model looks like crap, especially compared to the rest of the dark elf range.
Old_Paladin
· 10 months ago
The Cauldron will give them frenzy (+1 attack). Charging means that they can strike first with their great weapons.
Thats a brutal combo. Strike first, reroll to hit, high strength and killing blow, with extra attacks.
KINGS
· 10 months ago
assume they are also getting +1Attack from the CoB...?
~kings
unknown
· 10 months ago
The reasoning behind the 13 Exec attacks is that you have the +1 attack bonus from the cauldron. It is a cauldron tactica, afterall...
Darxaan
· 10 months ago
Ah, yes, +1 attack from the cauldron. That does indeed make 13 and one hell of a brutal charge. Reply to my own post 'cause I've been dog-piled and don't want to reply the same thing to everyone or single one out. The rest of my comment stands, however, that I wouldn't get one until I see a new model for it.
RTM
· 10 months ago
I plan to use the old Eldar Avatar model with some conversion work. Put it on a wheeled cart. This tactica is good (other than the bogus hag tea party) because it never even occurred to me to MOVE the damn thing. I hated the short range when the rest of the army is so fast.
RTM
Minus67
· 10 months ago
it is not bogus, it is a legal move supported by the rules
a.n. mous
· 10 months ago
Even if it were legal, which it is not (nice try though), anyone using such a misguided attempt at screwing with the game deserves nothing more than a nice swift kick, right in the bollocks.
Minus67, which is what I assume you get for Sportsmanship and Fun scoring at most events.
You and Goatboi belong together.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
i got 48 out of 50 at the Blatimore GT in Novemeber so i cant be a total cock. The tactic remains legal regardless of my cockness
Darxaan
· 10 months ago
Even if judges will rule that it's rules-legal, I still don't think it should be. See, my problem with a lot of things of this nature is that it's a result of "fuzzy wording" in the games workshop rulebooks. Games Workshop is not known for good legalese and it's exactly because of this that I prefer to err on the side of the spirit of the game than the letter of the rules. I will never use a tactic like this even if it does happen to be rules-legal. Things like this are also the very reason I will never play in a competitive environment.
Brother Armand
· 10 months ago
What he said ^.
My coworker and I were discussing this very topic in no small part thanks to this article. I'll be setting up a 4x4 in my office at work to start getting games in at lunch, (huzzah for me!), and we've been trying to figure out some logistics when we began talking about rules-legal tactics which, as Darxaan said perfectly, may seem contrary to the spirit of the rules. RAW vs RAI will always bring up heated arguments, but my contention is that I don't have to win every game, but I do expect to enjoy every game. This article makes me cringe at the thought of competitive play against such abusive tactics.
Darxaan
· 10 months ago
The avatar conversion has been suggested to me and I might consider it, though I'm still not really happy with the witch elf models, so I dunno what I'd do there. And yeah, first time I looked at it, I hadn't considered that you can actually move a thing like that, but when you think about it, that makes it a great core to support an aggressive army.
Samael
· 10 months ago
I think my second favorite part of the article was reading through the whiners' comments.
It's almost like the joke that the posters had BOLS remove. You guys take yourselves way to seriously.
Psst. I have a secret. It's a game.
mortal888
· 10 months ago
I agree the outrage over the joke was completely insane. It was meant in good humor, but some people have none.
As for this article, rules lawyering is tiresome and defeats not only the spirit of the game, but the point of the unit itself in that you are completely ignoring the role the unit was meant to play and trying to twist it. It is also trying to give yourself an unfair advantage. People who lawyer their games also take full advantage of exploits in video games.
If a player lawyers his friendly games, stop playing with him. If he doesn't understand why, then all the more reason. If you go to tournament, expect tiresome arguments and just let the judge decide. Judges hate visiting the same person over and over again anyway.
In any rate, there's no sense in cussing about it. When people start cussing in forums, you imagine someone red in the face with spittle dripping off their lips at a simple idea. Simmer down.
duder
· 10 months ago
Agreed, except I would never say Rick Rolls are good humor, they are the internet equiv of Knock Knock jokes.
mortal888
· 10 months ago
That's why i said "meant" in good humor. :)
Brother_Marius
· 10 months ago
Wow... nice buncha broken new rules and cheesey ways to use them. From my days as a square baser (dark dark times) I can definitely go with the folks calling BS on the Hag party nonsense. Big Red even prooves it's not legal because if you make them leave the machine they MUST be moving to crew a new machine, not hide behind a hill. With crap like this, people wonder why I play 40k...
Oh and to the whiners whining about whiners.... yeeaaah... so you're whining about people complaining about cheaters... so you're whiners once removed... but you're still whining....
Ruerl
· 10 months ago
Your aware that 40k players whine just as much no? Its a player attittude problem, not a problem with the game.
Brother_Marius
· 10 months ago
Oh I know, whining, and thereby labeling others whiners, is the hallmark of the most vocal types of gamers, whether it's tabletop or videogames. It just amuses me to watch that the 'Circle of Whining'
anomynous
· 10 months ago
it isn't syayed that they must move to another warmachine, but that they PERHAPS are going to move to another warmachine. This rule can be used for many other things, and is in no way cheating or cheesy
valaki
· 10 months ago
"The rulebook says that a War Machine that is not crewed cannot shoot." my roolebook says that "the machine requires at least one crewmen to WORK.." and says that, "these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it.
Gouda4U
· 10 months ago
Did the Goatman write this one? It's on a par for the level of fromage contained therein.
Hag Tea Party? I would frankly pack up my minis and give my opponent a very polite "go fuck yourself".
Wow. BOLS, please punt both the Goat and the Minus writers, they are teh suxxor.
Please institute more and more of GROOV3R style articles, that are meant to bring the the fun back to the game.
Holy crap. I am still stunned. Hag Tea Party. What an arse.
Highball
· 10 months ago
Get over yourself. It's an article about a game with little elves and knights. It's not that serious.
Just because you're bad at a game doesn't mean that people who are not terribad are 'teh suxxor'.
anomynous
· 10 months ago
Oh yeah, this one bad rule is so bad, if I were you I would cry :S
a.n. mous
· 10 months ago
nice spelling of anonymous, wanker!
Nightlord
· 10 months ago
Great Tactica and I even don't play Dark Elves.
To the whiners: First of all the Hag Tea Party is just ONE Dirty Trick. So no reason go frenzy about the whole Tactica.
Besides the minor usefulness of the Tea Party (without crew the Cauldron can't move. And without the Cauldron the Crew isn't ignoring 2/3 of all hits) I always think it is interesting to know HOW things might be used. No reason to use it for yourself if you don't like it. So just see the Tea Party move as an pure intellectual aspect of the Tactica =)
Peace. There is enough war on the tabletop.
KINGS
· 10 months ago
Well put. It seems like the crew are much easier pickings if not with the War Machine.
~kings
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
Great tactic, and as usual, when you are the one coming up with new tactics, you always have players gnashing teeth who don't understand how the rules work for a game.
Bravo on such a wonderful article. You are TRULY a Dark Elf General aren't you Big?
Minus67
· 10 months ago
This Article is not by BigRed, please pile your hatred onto Me. Minus67
intellectawe
· 10 months ago
I am very sorry!!! You are right. My deepest apologies!
Bijyu
· 10 months ago
It amazes me that people choose to read a section in an article called "DIRTY TRICKS" and then complain when they feel the trick is dirty. As for my belief? Legal. Would I do it? No. That is why its called a "Dirty trick"
YoshMeister
· 10 months ago
Am I the only one who noticed that the cauldron of blood rules specifically say that the hags cannot abandon the machine? They will always chill there, it's not in the general rulebook, it's in the rules for the cauldron of blood.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
Incorrect, pg. 93 of the Dark Elf Book. "If the death hag chooses a cauldron of Blood she becomes part of the unit and cannot leave it during the battle". She cannot leave the unit ( of hags). But as a happy little group they can leave the cauldron.
toothpiks
· 10 months ago
i would just like to say that im not a huge fan of this stereotypical bashing that seems to fly around alot im sure some of the guys who really get pissed by some one elts's comment should calm down play the way you want at home but with that i give huge props the guys who stay calm in a discussion
no mentions to any one on this post or to any in specific cause we all have our moments but i think once it hits 4 coments of your stupid , no your stupid , be the better man
RTM
· 10 months ago
Agreed. What's with the hate! This isn't your average interwebs mudrasslin' ring. We aren't that kind of neighborhood here.
Super assassin and hydra wall are brilliant. Moving the cauldron is smart. This tactica has me considering using what I always believed to be an overpriced POS.
RTM
CT
· 10 months ago
@Minus67
I don't play fantasy but the way I read the quote is -
If the death hag chooses a cauldron of blood [then] she: 1) becomes a part of the unit - and - 2) cannot leave it [cauldron of blood] during battle.
Just my two cents. Keep up the good work! I love it when something makes people stop and think. :)
Minus67
· 10 months ago
Well you can choose to play that way at home, that interpretation is incorrect. She becomes part of the unit. That unit is a warmachine crew and as such can leave the machine. If this is not true and it is a unit, than they would flee with the machine! which is crazy talk.
CT
· 10 months ago
Very true but it also sounds crazy for a war machine to work without a crew. Why even bother writing the rules for the crew; why not make it a vehicle instead? Since 'it' is ambiguous I wouldn't go to a tournament and expect a random judge to make the same assessment.
Like I said I don't play fantasy, but I can see where the wording is very confusing. It wouldn't bother me to play it either way; I'd consider it casting a spell then heading for safety.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
its not a spell. It even goes to great lengths to say its not a spell. It is a giant statue with no moving parts. It effects come from the crew, not the statue.
CT
· 10 months ago
Then why write rules for the statue? Sorry but that makes it sound even more like they all need to be in close proximity to work. GW usually writes a rule to highlight when a unit functions out of the perceived norm (i.e Power of the Machine Spirit or Assault Vehicle). 40k-wise there would be a rule like remote control or automated defense that specifies it could be used from a distantance.
I can tell by the amount of avid response that this doesn't sit well with others (which is a good indication it wasn't intended as a function of the CoB) and I'd expect to see it in an official errata down the road.
anon
· 10 months ago
did every one forget that the rules in the indevidual codex superseed the rules in the main rule book. that has been the halmark of every rpg wargame whatever nerd game you want to call it. thaty all say the same thing .
Kataan
· 10 months ago
I really enjoyed that article. I don't game, and I've never collected a fantasy army, but these are the sorts of things I used to love reading in WD. You know, when WD had articles.
But yeah, cheers for the insight, interesting stuff.
Josh
· 10 months ago
If somebody came up with this and we couldn't decide the simple thing is roll a dice 1-3 allowed 4-6 disallowed this does over with all the "rulezlawers" as people described them.
Honestly I would have no problem somebody using this against me, makes the game interesting........
Minus67
· 10 months ago
This is a great solution for deciding things amongst friends at home, however at a tournament this method does not work.
Internet Hate Machine
· 10 months ago
I came for the FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
and left bemused
Reecius
· 10 months ago
Nice tactica thanks for writing that up. You guys always encourage thought and show new ways to play the game or look at a unit in a new light.
Chill out people, most of you only play in a FLGS anyway, so who cares if one guy on the internet advises people to play the unit a certain way. At tournies, their are judges to rule on things like this, or excellent FAQ's, such as Adepticons, to address these tissues.
You either play for fun with people you know, or in a tourny where the situation is controlled.
So calm down and appreciate the effort that individuals put into this website that gives all of us something to read.
Bob the Unseen
· 10 months ago
Thanks for an interesting read. While I personally feel the Hag Tea Party might legit only if stretching the rules to near broke, the rest of the tactica was fun and insightful. I love reading these because it makes me look at my 40k armies and assess my tactics there too.
To those flaming and hating. Do you really think Minus67 is the only person to ever think this up? Isn't it better to be forewarned against this tactic? Thank him for showing you the possibility, and if you don't like then don't use it. Just don't expect everyone to play that nicely. They are Dark Elves after all :)
RTM
· 10 months ago
I would never allow such an abusive reading in any tournament of mine. And yes, I do run tournaments and typically serve as head judge. It's so obviously against RAI it isn't worth further discussing.
Point to whatever cross-reference pages, paragraph numbers, and email quotes from Ricky the Redshirt who you met on the Interwebtoob. The answer is still no. No as in "not nobody, not nohow".
I would be surprised to see someone who hammers nitpick loopholes into their opponents for explicit obvious dickmoves to score 48 out of 50 at any tournament, even an Italian GT.
That said, everything else you had in the article was awesome. Thank you for the contribution, it really is good! Sorry you're getting so much flak for such a very small part of it.
RTM
Minus67
· 10 months ago
i can link you to the result sheet for Baltimore if you want to see my score. Clearly the argument is over when you say it is over. I also run tournaments probably far more than you do, and its based on rules not RAI.
RTM
· 10 months ago
You adjudicate differently, then. I adjudicate according to RAI not RAW using referee's prerogative. I have plenty of rules lawyers on my referee team, and we constantly have little discussions about the differences.
Whether you judge more or differently is irrelevant. My assertion is that you wouldn't get away with it if you were playing in one of my tournaments (assuming your opponent complained enough to call a judge over). You obviously would get away with it in SOME tournaments or you wouldn't have posted it!
The fact that you recognize that when a judge decrees an argument is over and you would accept that ruling shines very favorably on you, and your high sportsmanship score is no longer unlikely.
RTM
Hwilam
· 10 months ago
Small WFB rulebook pp 85, 86:
"Obviously, the machine requires at least one crewman to work, "
which might imply that the CoB would become useless if the crew leaves... but then:
"so the machine will become useless should all of its crew be slain"
which lends credence to the argument that if the crew remains alive, even if not in contact with the war machine, somehow the CoB still works.
However, would they start having to worry about frenzy since they're not actually crewing the machine?
LordAba
· 10 months ago
Witch Tea Party:
pg 84 of the rulebook states that you must be within 1" of the machine to crew it. pg 51 of the dark elves rulebook states that the attendants are the ones that use the blessing. Thus if the crew leave the cauldron, they are not attendants since they have to abandon it (which they can). Thus is the crew leave the cauldron the cauldron just sits there and cannot be used. But the crew can always come back.
I would be interesting to know how you think it works differently.
Not to be too hard on you, it's a good article otherwise. A bit too "focused" maybe, after all many people here don't play warhammer (in which they shouldn't comment on the rules). :)
Minus67
· 10 months ago
The attendants refers to the crew, all the effects are off the crew, which why the statue is removed if they die. The statue does absolutely nothing except look (pretty) ugly. If the crew leaves the stature they are still the attendants. If it said, when the attendants are crewing the machine, or when the cauldron is crew etc.. i would share your opinion.
LordAba
· 10 months ago
Okay, I see what you are saying. Too bad it's very edge case, and I would have to disagree with you since I doubt it is RAI.
Plus going by RAW then you really can't say that the "it" in "cannot leave it during the battle" refers to only the unit and not the war machine. Personally I would demand a roll off: first on what the definition of what "it" is, then on if you can leave the war machine and still count as using your powers. :P
CT
· 10 months ago
Considering you don't like non-fanatsy players commenting I find it amusing that you agree with my comment. :)
static grass
· 10 months ago
Minus67 I understand what you are are trying to say but you are very selective on your "RAW". They are called Attendants no? And why is that? It is because they attend to the warmachine, i.e. stand right next to it and make it work. Flight attendants dont sit in the airport and ring you if you want sandwich :) Obviously the warmachine would work when the attendants are next to it, it is not RAW that it continues to work when the crew abondon the machine because that is not written. You can't say that the statue does nothing because the effects are measured from it so clearly the crew generate the "effect" and the effect comes from the statue. So clearly the two are required for the effect to work. So why would the rule book state "if the crew are manning the machine"? It is already obvious from the BRB and the army book that the crew has to man the machine inorder for it to work.
Moj
· 10 months ago
I agree with static grass. the power come from the CoB the control comes from the Hag. You wrote this article (which i liked) but without electrical power to your computer to post it, it would have been useless.
P.S. it is increadibly funny to witness people getting upset about something you would get a ruling on in a tournament and dice off in casual play if your opponent didn't agree.
beakie
· 10 months ago
Exactly so.
Walls
· 10 months ago
Short and sweet...
It's the BoLS site, so the Fly Lords will do as they please. I respect that.
As for the rule, I agree with the "This cannot be done" category.
As for the article, I agree with the "Why is this stuff on the site?" category
a.n. mous
· 10 months ago
"Short and sweet...
It's the BoLS site, so the Fly Lords will do as they please."
1. The Fly Lords ain't so fly, any mo'
2. The BOLS has lost it's soul.
wkz
· 10 months ago
1) Because they flew so high, they're in space. You don't "fly" in space 2) Its called Bell of LOST SOULS. Whatdiya expect?
Sergeant_Uriel_Ventris
· 10 months ago
Oh geeze, heaven forbid that BoLS branch out and explore the Warhammer hobby more completely, like the majority of gamers.
Great article, although I'm going to have to agree that the tea party doesn't seem either reasonable, legal, or fun.
Sla-Ha-Nesh
· 10 months ago
This so called Hag Tea Party is definitely a dirty trick that leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I bet our author also has chariot destroying assassins in his army.
A. Nony-Mouse
· 10 months ago
Cheesy or not, it seems that it would be kinda fun to try it, just once, to see how it works (assuming that the other player agrees to allow it). Think sentry gun. As long as it has ammo and power, it continues to work. The assumption here is that the basic magic of the CoB works whether there's someone to guide it or not, just like an automated sentry gun.
John
· 10 months ago
In addition to what already has been said to counter this nonsense. What about in the rulebook under "Panic" where it states that "a warmachine crew may NEVER voluntarily abandon its machine" ? Since the Cauldron is clearly classified a Warmachine and the Cauldron text does not specify that the crew can do whatever the hell its wants. I don't see how you justify "The Hag Tea Party" without taking a pretty big leap.
By Minus's reasoning you might as well deploy the crew separate from the Cauldron from the get go, or better yet- why don't you just drop the crew in the back rank of a block of Executioners while you're at it.
Dirty trick or not this stinks and will surely be put to bed in the new DE FAQ.
Eric
· 10 months ago
Panic? Which section, I'm trying to find it. I know they're referring to Last sentence on pg86 as far as abandoning goes.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
the warmachine sections says they can abandon their machine. Go read it, its been quoted several times here. The crew cannot DEPLOY seperately. and only characters can join units. Since the hag is already part of a unit she cannot leave she cannot join another unit.
Rich B
· 10 months ago
Nice one Minus67, a really good, informative article with something for everyone :-) I'll certainly be looking at picking one of these up, especially if the rumours of a new sculpt in wave 2 pan out to be correct.
My only complaint is that the Tea Party thingamajig is the only entry that really belongs in the Dirty Tricks section, all the others are "harsh but fair" in my book ;-)
I'm fairly confident I'll never run into the Tea Party filth in my gaming group but if you like to play hardball and play against equally hard-nosed RAW lawyers all the time then go for it... Whatever floats your boat...
Rich
Eric
· 10 months ago
on the tea party debacle: I see the concept that's being angled here, that the Ability is derived from the Attendents but has its focus point on the Cauldron. That much is true, but at that point you have to contend with pg85-86. Specfically the "Obviously, the machine requires at least one crewman to work, so the machine will become useless should all its crew be slain." Before you try to argue that its only in connection with crew being slain, you have to observe the facet that Warmachines are like binary switches. They're either on or off. The Loss of Crew section details when the warmachine is "off" or rather, it has no crew. Meaning anything the Warmachine is attempting to do will fail/not work/etc.
One logical leap here I'd surmise that the Crew still are able to act and do their thing but the Warmachine can't. Would the game effect then be something along the lines of "Attendents use ability X but get 0" range"
Lastly, the tactic does have the fatal flaw that others have pointed out. The second an enemy unit touches it, it's dead. With a downside that huge that only requires your opponent to spend minimal effort, why bother even suggesting such a controversial tactic?
Minus67
· 10 months ago
The tactic is only really useful to avoid armies with TONS of shooting. i.e Other Dark Elves.
John
· 10 months ago
Eric- I shouldn't waited until i had the rule book in front of me, that quote is from something else I read that must be RAI. the intent of the last paragraph on page 86 is clearly in order to crew another machine. Yeah, they stupidly put that word "perhaps" in there. Using "perhaps" as the loophole to give credence to the crew being able to do whateverv the hell it wants is no different than me changing "a War Machine that is not crewed cannot shoot." to "a War Machine that is not crewed cannot operate" its the same parsing of words. which is BS..because the intent of how a Warmachine and its crew is supposed to function is clearly there. if they wanted the Cauldron to function the way Minus claims they would called it a monster instead of a war machine. Or spelled it clearly in the unit description.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
RAI is a good way to play amongst friends, not for tournaments.
Chumbalaya
· 10 months ago
Death Hag Tea Party...
You fail.
Minus67
· 10 months ago
thanks for reading!
Kraggi
· 10 months ago
I don't normally feel the need to comment on articles unless they are REALLY REALLY good.
I am impressed with this and hope to see more of these Warhammer Articles on BoLS.
Dark Elves are my First Warhammer army and still hold a special place in my heart, cause even in the hold rules where they were supposed to be weak I could still win well over half my games.
I think that some of the complaining comes from people not really reading the article. It does clearly state
"DIRTY TRICKS Now here are nasty tricks you can pull with this thing."
Now to me I am glad to read about em. Now I know the following things:
1. How to do them (should I wish to) 2. How to beat em (which should be no.1 as it is FAR more important).
I play in the spirit of the game and that means to me I wouldnt do the Hag Tea Party, but if someone else wants to when I am using my Wood Elves then thats just cool. I now know about it and am able to expect it and therefore combat it.
Lots of people have also pointed out quite rightly that if you dont like someone doing this to you then dont play them. That simple... end of story.
Why is everyone moaning about this. All of the articles on the Site that tell you about the 'Dirty Tricks' have two effects.
1. Tell people how to do it 2. Tell people about it, so they can prepare for it (have I said this before?).
And for all your slamming of the writers of these articles they may not have discovered the rule as much as had it used against em.
Finally (in what has become a long comment) I personnaly find all of the other combinations and ideas far far more scary than the Hag wandering off for a tea party in the woods.....
anonymous
· 10 months ago
ITT: Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.
Flashman
· 10 months ago
I have to say, I love reading the comments on BoLS. They make me LoL for real. -
" They are called Attendants no? And why is that? It is because they attend to the warmachine, i.e. stand right next to it and make it work. Flight attendants dont sit in the airport and ring you if you want sandwich :) " -
This is gold standard.
On the Hag Tea Party a funny concept, cheesy execution. I can't for the life of me see where in the BRB it says that a warmachine cannot 'shoot' without it's crew. Only that it cannot 'work' which in my mind would seem to remove all the CoB functions. Otherwise the article was interesting.
MadLarkin
· 10 months ago
Great tactica, I never thought the fact that the cauldron could move and still work and executioners and the cauldron seem to go hand in hand.
Honestly I want to see more tacticas like this on BOLS, I found it really interesting and informative about a unit I've never seen used in game (perhaps because of the awkward mini that represents it)
I don't like the hag tea party rule and I personally wouldn't use it but I'm glad you went over it so if I ever did come up against a cauldron I can be aware of it. To me its similar of the gaunts cover save in the open formation, legal but cheap.
Question about the hag tea party, if the hags die then the cauldron does cease to work right? Honestly I'd prefer the hags to leave the cauldron, 3 T3 models with no save wandering in the open is a prime target for a magic missile compared to the protection they get from the cauldron.
Raverrn
· 10 months ago
Two Hydras? Really? Are you the guy that takes Abbadon in 500 point games, too?
Ben
· 10 months ago
Probably. He seems to be the sort that's "winning first." Which is great in the GT scene (where you need them just to compete against DoC and VC), but won't win you friends in "fun" games.
I wouldn't enjoy playing against it, more like than not, as O&G. And would hate it as something without any warmachines.
That said, still a pretty good article, though I've seen cauldron of blood used very often to good effect.
Steve Shumka
· 3 months ago
over all I like it. Hag tea party is not in spirit of the game or the rules; DE rulebook says death hag joins the unit and the unit consists of two hags and 1 cauldron of blood. I will probably use everything else though
KINGS
· 10 months ago
Great Article minus69! I assume most people don’t take the CoB because it is such an ugly model. It appears that the rules have been written to compensate for that… haha. The more BoLS writes WFB articles the more I have to resist playing that game.
Oh and to all you people who think BoLS should be writing tacticas that don’t push the envelope… go read Mkerr’s archived 40k tacticas… Vindicare Assassin shooting into combat, shooting multiple units in a single turn exc. BoLS has always written crazy shit! Your comments on the matter crack me up!
~kings
faultie
· 10 months ago
Regarding the Vindicare tactica, the current errata/FAQ actually agrees if I remember right. They can fire into melee.
Sixsystems
· 10 months ago
'bout time we got to some fantasy tactica???
I signed on for some 40k, not unicorns. Not that I have any false impressions about being missed, but I can see other websites catching my attention if this site changes from big, bad-ass tanks to weak, horse drawn buggies....
Aside from that, the last time minus67 pasted his shit on this site he essentially called 40k an inferior game. Why would you bring this joker back? Not that it really matters as his article has stirred up more hate than I could in a week and he continues to besmirch his reputation here. Now that I'm thinking about it- keep the lad writing! It will be amusing as hell to watch him fail to adequately defend his positions time after time after time....
Minus67
· 10 months ago
If you had bothered to read my last article i merely tried to get 40k players to try out fantasy. I have defend my argument everytime and it still work no matter how much it annoys other people. Thanks for reading!
All Comments
i call bull. even if that is RAW, no way am i letting someone get away with that. no crew = nonfunctional war machine. that's some pretty serious twink there...
And if your opponent keeps tapping on the page in the rulebook, just throw a dice, before you start reachin' for your opponents throats...
RAW = "these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it" (WFB rules page 84)
its a good idea, just unfortunately completly illegal
I'm always disappointed when I see BoLS encourage nonsporting ways to cheat and work against the spirit of the rules. Remember people this is a GAME between people, not a monument to your ability to find what you think are uber-tricky loopholes. In our game store you would simply not be permitted to do that, period.
I am amazed that anyone thought that this was a tactic. This spoiled an otherwise good tactica and revealed a great deal about the nature of the writer.
I don't have an opinion myself on this subject myself, but I think you are being too hard on people that have a legitimate complaint about a tactica article suggesting things that aren't legal.
"The entire crew may deliberately abandon a war machine, perhaps in order to crew another"
"these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it" (WFB rules page 84)"
Doesn't say they have to stay, just says it's then not crewed...
You can still charge abandoned warmachines and when they loose combat (and they will) then the enemy automatically destroys it.
You can leave a warmachine whenever you want.
The problem with doing this, as should be amended in the article, is that an uncrewed warmachine can be automatically destroyed (called spiked as slang) in close combat.
So yes you can leave your Cauldron and still have it cast magic, which is awesome! But ANY enemy model can touch it in combat and auto destroy it.
So yes guys, calm down, there is a down side to this tactic.
So if I'm reading this right.. it can't be spiked...
so you can happily abbandon the cauldron, hide and let the cauldron rip :) so yes you can have a Hag Tea Party
Its mostly to avoid MASS shooting, like from other dark elf armies.
Regardless of personal opinion, I'd 1) call your local GW to get an official ruling on this during any competitive play, and 2) think about your opponent. Last time I checked, the number one rule of fantasy was to have fun. Someone pulls this move on you, reach across the table and say good game. They obviously aren't out to have fun.
Shouldn't article writers on BOLS have to actually read the unit they are reviewing?
My girlfriend is starting a DE army (she has a really cool theme, going to be an all female army, and uses a lot of old school models) and shes hyped to use the Cauldron. Ill be sure to send her this at work.
Thanks!
Would be nice to see more of those!
Other than that, a good article, allthough I would be curious as to exactly what the points cost of this beast is.
And more general articles would be helpful. Unless you own A CoB, and play dark elves, there isn't much here that's useful, except to remind me 'Thats why Lizardmen have skinks'
You an abandon your warmachine, which basically only disallows you from SHOOTING with it. The Cauldron's magic aspect is basically separate from warmachines, and it can cast magic whether the crew is there or not.
Don't get mad that the Dark Elves can actually do something nifty! Be glad they weren't given the all around over powered cheese the previous new books were given.
"I'm not sure where you or the writer is getting 'shooting' from but in the loss of crew section the BRB says, 'Obviously the machine requires at least one crewman to WORK...' not shoot but work so without crew the cauldron will just sit and sputter."
As I said, it doesn't matter if the crew is with the Cauldron or not, the effect is not dependent on the Cauldron. SO sure, the Cauldron won't 'work', but the power still happens regardless.
The question arise from the fact that the CoB crew is one of the first (if not the first) with Frenzy, so players are not used to that combo.
The whole point of a tactica is to push the envelope and to think of things that nobody else has, if it just stated the patently bloody obvious you would all be up in arms that the article was of no use or insulted your inteligence.
Dont you think the hobby needs people to ask questions and prompt debate by drawing attention to loop holes in rules and codexes? Without it how would the hobby evolve or change?
Rather than screaming that its blatant cheating (AdmiralHalsey) why not put across a reasoned counter argument (see Syndersons post if you need tips on this) as this may make you sound less like a petulant child and more like a rational adult.
Glad to see I wasn't disappointed. Stay classy, internet.
It's the kind of hairsplitting and erroneous crap (just like the "opposing armies can use the SM Locator Beacon because it only says 'unit' and not 'friendly unit'") that bigred spews that drags this site down.
I think the real problem here is GW themselves. There are so many loop holes found in the rules but no ones really sure if they are legal or not. Every other company solves this by having an in-depth faq, GW's faqs never, ever answer even the most common questions people have. This whole debate would be solved if GW actually paid more attention to these grey issues and made a clear ruling.
Other than that, this gives me serious reason to think about taking this for my dark elves. Hell, even throw a battle standard in there too to make it a real buff-o-matic.
The only thing that gives me pause is the fact the model looks like crap, especially compared to the rest of the dark elf range.
Charging means that they can strike first with their great weapons.
Thats a brutal combo. Strike first, reroll to hit, high strength and killing blow, with extra attacks.
~kings
The rest of my comment stands, however, that I wouldn't get one until I see a new model for it.
RTM
Minus67, which is what I assume you get for Sportsmanship and Fun scoring at most events.
You and Goatboi belong together.
My coworker and I were discussing this very topic in no small part thanks to this article. I'll be setting up a 4x4 in my office at work to start getting games in at lunch, (huzzah for me!), and we've been trying to figure out some logistics when we began talking about rules-legal tactics which, as Darxaan said perfectly, may seem contrary to the spirit of the rules. RAW vs RAI will always bring up heated arguments, but my contention is that I don't have to win every game, but I do expect to enjoy every game. This article makes me cringe at the thought of competitive play against such abusive tactics.
And yeah, first time I looked at it, I hadn't considered that you can actually move a thing like that, but when you think about it, that makes it a great core to support an aggressive army.
It's almost like the joke that the posters had BOLS remove. You guys take yourselves way to seriously.
Psst. I have a secret. It's a game.
As for this article, rules lawyering is tiresome and defeats not only the spirit of the game, but the point of the unit itself in that you are completely ignoring the role the unit was meant to play and trying to twist it. It is also trying to give yourself an unfair advantage. People who lawyer their games also take full advantage of exploits in video games.
If a player lawyers his friendly games, stop playing with him. If he doesn't understand why, then all the more reason. If you go to tournament, expect tiresome arguments and just let the judge decide. Judges hate visiting the same person over and over again anyway.
In any rate, there's no sense in cussing about it. When people start cussing in forums, you imagine someone red in the face with spittle dripping off their lips at a simple idea. Simmer down.
Oh and to the whiners whining about whiners.... yeeaaah... so you're whining about people complaining about cheaters... so you're whiners once removed... but you're still whining....
my roolebook says that "the machine requires at least one crewmen to WORK.." and says that, "these models must be kept within 1" of their machine to count as crewing it.
Hag Tea Party? I would frankly pack up my minis and give my opponent a very polite "go fuck yourself".
Wow. BOLS, please punt both the Goat and the Minus writers, they are teh suxxor.
Please institute more and more of GROOV3R style articles, that are meant to bring the the fun back to the game.
Holy crap. I am still stunned. Hag Tea Party. What an arse.
Just because you're bad at a game doesn't mean that people who are not terribad are 'teh suxxor'.
To the whiners:
First of all the Hag Tea Party is just ONE Dirty Trick. So no reason go frenzy about the whole Tactica.
Besides the minor usefulness of the Tea Party (without crew the Cauldron can't move. And without the Cauldron the Crew isn't ignoring 2/3 of all hits) I always think it is interesting to know HOW things might be used. No reason to use it for yourself if you don't like it. So just see the Tea Party move as an pure intellectual aspect of the Tactica =)
Peace. There is enough war on the tabletop.
~kings
Bravo on such a wonderful article. You are TRULY a Dark Elf General aren't you Big?
no mentions to any one on this post or to any in specific cause we all have our moments but i think once it hits 4 coments of your stupid , no your stupid , be the better man
Super assassin and hydra wall are brilliant. Moving the cauldron is smart. This tactica has me considering using what I always believed to be an overpriced POS.
RTM
I don't play fantasy but the way I read the quote is -
If the death hag chooses a cauldron of blood [then] she:
1) becomes a part of the unit
- and -
2) cannot leave it [cauldron of blood] during battle.
Just my two cents. Keep up the good work! I love it when something makes people stop and think. :)
Like I said I don't play fantasy, but I can see where the wording is very confusing. It wouldn't bother me to play it either way; I'd consider it casting a spell then heading for safety.
I can tell by the amount of avid response that this doesn't sit well with others (which is a good indication it wasn't intended as a function of the CoB) and I'd expect to see it in an official errata down the road.
But yeah, cheers for the insight, interesting stuff.
1-3 allowed
4-6 disallowed
this does over with all the "rulezlawers" as people described them.
Honestly I would have no problem somebody using this against me, makes the game interesting........
and left bemused
Chill out people, most of you only play in a FLGS anyway, so who cares if one guy on the internet advises people to play the unit a certain way. At tournies, their are judges to rule on things like this, or excellent FAQ's, such as Adepticons, to address these tissues.
You either play for fun with people you know, or in a tourny where the situation is controlled.
So calm down and appreciate the effort that individuals put into this website that gives all of us something to read.
To those flaming and hating. Do you really think Minus67 is the only person to ever think this up? Isn't it better to be forewarned against this tactic? Thank him for showing you the possibility, and if you don't like then don't use it. Just don't expect everyone to play that nicely. They are Dark Elves after all :)
Point to whatever cross-reference pages, paragraph numbers, and email quotes from Ricky the Redshirt who you met on the Interwebtoob. The answer is still no. No as in "not nobody, not nohow".
I would be surprised to see someone who hammers nitpick loopholes into their opponents for explicit obvious dickmoves to score 48 out of 50 at any tournament, even an Italian GT.
That said, everything else you had in the article was awesome. Thank you for the contribution, it really is good! Sorry you're getting so much flak for such a very small part of it.
RTM
Whether you judge more or differently is irrelevant. My assertion is that you wouldn't get away with it if you were playing in one of my tournaments (assuming your opponent complained enough to call a judge over). You obviously would get away with it in SOME tournaments or you wouldn't have posted it!
The fact that you recognize that when a judge decrees an argument is over and you would accept that ruling shines very favorably on you, and your high sportsmanship score is no longer unlikely.
RTM
"Obviously, the machine requires at least one crewman to work, "
which might imply that the CoB would become useless if the crew leaves... but then:
"so the machine will become useless should all of its crew be slain"
which lends credence to the argument that if the crew remains alive, even if not in contact with the war machine, somehow the CoB still works.
However, would they start having to worry about frenzy since they're not actually crewing the machine?
pg 84 of the rulebook states that you must be within 1" of the machine to crew it.
pg 51 of the dark elves rulebook states that the attendants are the ones that use the blessing.
Thus if the crew leave the cauldron, they are not attendants since they have to abandon it (which they can).
Thus is the crew leave the cauldron the cauldron just sits there and cannot be used. But the crew can always come back.
I would be interesting to know how you think it works differently.
Not to be too hard on you, it's a good article otherwise. A bit too "focused" maybe, after all many people here don't play warhammer (in which they shouldn't comment on the rules).
:)
Plus going by RAW then you really can't say that the "it" in "cannot leave it during the battle" refers to only the unit and not the war machine. Personally I would demand a roll off: first on what the definition of what "it" is, then on if you can leave the war machine and still count as using your powers. :P
P.S. it is increadibly funny to witness people getting upset about something you would get a ruling on in a tournament and dice off in casual play if your opponent didn't agree.
It's the BoLS site, so the Fly Lords will do as they please. I respect that.
As for the rule, I agree with the "This cannot be done" category.
As for the article, I agree with the "Why is this stuff on the site?" category
It's the BoLS site, so the Fly Lords will do as they please."
1. The Fly Lords ain't so fly, any mo'
2. The BOLS has lost it's soul.
2) Its called Bell of LOST SOULS. Whatdiya expect?
Great article, although I'm going to have to agree that the tea party doesn't seem either reasonable, legal, or fun.
By Minus's reasoning you might as well deploy the crew separate from the Cauldron from the get go, or better yet- why don't you just drop the crew in the back rank of a block of Executioners while you're at it.
Dirty trick or not this stinks and will surely be put to bed in the new DE FAQ.
My only complaint is that the Tea Party thingamajig is the only entry that really belongs in the Dirty Tricks section, all the others are "harsh but fair" in my book ;-)
I'm fairly confident I'll never run into the Tea Party filth in my gaming group but if you like to play hardball and play against equally hard-nosed RAW lawyers all the time then go for it... Whatever floats your boat...
Rich
I see the concept that's being angled here, that the Ability is derived from the Attendents but has its focus point on the Cauldron. That much is true, but at that point you have to contend with pg85-86. Specfically the "Obviously, the machine requires at least one crewman to work, so the machine will become useless should all its crew be slain."
Before you try to argue that its only in connection with crew being slain, you have to observe the facet that Warmachines are like binary switches. They're either on or off. The Loss of Crew section details when the warmachine is "off" or rather, it has no crew. Meaning anything the Warmachine is attempting to do will fail/not work/etc.
One logical leap here I'd surmise that the Crew still are able to act and do their
thing but the Warmachine can't. Would the game effect then be something along the lines of "Attendents use ability X but get 0" range"
Lastly, the tactic does have the fatal flaw that others have pointed out. The second an enemy unit touches it, it's dead. With a downside that huge that only requires your opponent to spend minimal effort, why bother even suggesting such a controversial tactic?
of how a Warmachine and its crew is supposed to function is clearly there. if they wanted the Cauldron to function the way Minus claims they would called it a monster instead of a war machine. Or spelled it clearly in the unit description.
You fail.
I am impressed with this and hope to see more of these Warhammer Articles on BoLS.
Dark Elves are my First Warhammer army and still hold a special place in my heart, cause even in the hold rules where they were supposed to be weak I could still win well over half my games.
I think that some of the complaining comes from people not really reading the article. It does clearly state
"DIRTY TRICKS
Now here are nasty tricks you can pull with this thing."
Now to me I am glad to read about em. Now I know the following things:
1. How to do them (should I wish to)
2. How to beat em (which should be no.1 as it is FAR more important).
I play in the spirit of the game and that means to me I wouldnt do the Hag Tea Party, but if someone else wants to when I am using my Wood Elves then thats just cool. I now know about it and am able to expect it and therefore combat it.
Lots of people have also pointed out quite rightly that if you dont like someone doing this to you then dont play them. That simple... end of story.
Why is everyone moaning about this. All of the articles on the Site that tell you about the 'Dirty Tricks' have two effects.
1. Tell people how to do it
2. Tell people about it, so they can prepare for it (have I said this before?).
And for all your slamming of the writers of these articles they may not have discovered the rule as much as had it used against em.
Finally (in what has become a long comment) I personnaly find all of the other combinations and ideas far far more scary than the Hag wandering off for a tea party in the woods.....
" They are called Attendants no? And why is that? It is because they attend to the warmachine, i.e. stand right next to it and make it work. Flight attendants dont sit in the airport and ring you if you want sandwich :) " -
This is gold standard.
On the Hag Tea Party a funny concept, cheesy execution. I can't for the life of me see where in the BRB it says that a warmachine cannot 'shoot' without it's crew. Only that it cannot 'work' which in my mind would seem to remove all the CoB functions. Otherwise the article was interesting.
Honestly I want to see more tacticas like this on BOLS, I found it really interesting and informative about a unit I've never seen used in game (perhaps because of the awkward mini that represents it)
I don't like the hag tea party rule and I personally wouldn't use it but I'm glad you went over it so if I ever did come up against a cauldron I can be aware of it. To me its similar of the gaunts cover save in the open formation, legal but cheap.
Question about the hag tea party, if the hags die then the cauldron does cease to work right? Honestly I'd prefer the hags to leave the cauldron, 3 T3 models with no save wandering in the open is a prime target for a magic missile compared to the protection they get from the cauldron.
I wouldn't enjoy playing against it, more like than not, as O&G. And would hate it as something without any warmachines.
That said, still a pretty good article, though I've seen cauldron of blood used very often to good effect.
I assume most people don’t take the CoB because it is such an ugly model. It appears that the rules have been written to compensate for that… haha. The more BoLS writes WFB articles the more I have to resist playing that game.
Oh and to all you people who think BoLS should be writing tacticas that don’t push the envelope… go read Mkerr’s archived 40k tacticas… Vindicare Assassin shooting into combat, shooting multiple units in a single turn exc. BoLS has always written crazy shit! Your comments on the matter crack me up!
~kings
I signed on for some 40k, not unicorns. Not that I have any false impressions about being missed, but I can see other websites catching my attention if this site changes from big, bad-ass tanks to weak, horse drawn buggies....
Aside from that, the last time minus67 pasted his shit on this site he essentially called 40k an inferior game. Why would you bring this joker back? Not that it really matters as his article has stirred up more hate than I could in a week and he continues to besmirch his reputation here. Now that I'm thinking about it- keep the lad writing! It will be amusing as hell to watch him fail to adequately defend his positions time after time after time....
P.S. 40k is an inferior game right now